David Collins 1750, Saponi?

[Drew Blattner]

I would like to know how exactly David Collins is Saponi. I keep reading that he is a Saponi, however I have yet to see any evidence that he is or how he is. I assume he is a mixed blood, because I have the Collins family going back to England. I always figured the Collins family was Scots-Irish, but everything I have found indicates English. Was David's mother Martha Demsey a full blood Saponi? Is that how he has Saponi blood? Or is the Saponi from his father John Collins Sr., further back down the line- perhaps his mother- Elizabeth Unknown who married William Collins? Or perhaps William's mother Lucee who married James Collins? Did David Collins mary a Saponi- Thompsey Posting? Did David's son Aaron marry a Saponi- Mary Nuklas? Did Aaron's son Stephen marry a Saponi- Mary Long? Did Stephen's son Stephan Jr. "Babe" Collins marry a Saponi- Sarah E.? Babe's daughter Mary Jane Collins married Charles Elmer "Buck" Porter- does anyone know of any of his ancestory at all? I have heard many theories but I am really just trying to get to the bottom of the bloodlines. I would like to know what percentage of Native American- Saponi the decendants would be, what,if any percentage Mulungeon, or African, and what percentage European, and whether it is English, Scots-Irish, Portuguese or whatever. I know I have lots of questions, and I have lots more, but I also have some information that I would be willing to share with whomever. If you can answer any of the above questions please do. I have worked on my and my fiance's genealogy daily for years now and am really getting anxious at getting to the bottom of who and what we are. I have always suspected that she has Native blood, as all from that side of her family look very Native, although there has never been any evidence, only rumors of Native American, Spanish, or African blood. All the other sides of her family look very Northern European with blue eyes and light hair. However, the Collins-Porter side and ALL the decendants thereafter have brown eyes and brown or black hair, with a darker complextion. Please, any information will be helpful.
Thank you,
Drew Blattner

[collins]

The main question in answering this would be who exactly was John Collins, which John Collins was David of 1748-1750's father?
Many people say that the John Collins and Martha Dempsey line is not David of 1750's line.
Some in the family even question whether or not Thompsey Posting is right for our David's wife.
Some people say that John Collins was the son of Old Thomas Collins. Some have thought David of 1750 to be the son of Samuel Collins also a son of Old Thomas Collins as well he had a brother named Samuel Collins.
The Colonial Collins lines from the Collinses of Nansemond county have Native ties as well and also end up in similar locations to the other Collinses.
I've tried to understand this myself for a long time and with as many people that say their working on it I find it odd that no one has found anything that could bring some sort of conclusion to the questions. This is why I am trying to raise funds to get a genealogist in on the search. Especially since no one seems to be able to get to a conclusion on it. If there is so much information out there on these Collins lines I think that some sort of conclusions could be drawn from it. I find it odd that no one has. I know one thing for certain. Our Collins lines are not completly white and have a heavy interaction with the Native population. In fact they are named in several college anthropolgy dissertations and several books regarding Melungeons and other mixed blood Native groups as being Saponi Indians. I have also been told a great deal of the information is being utilized in some groups recognition processes of which I could give one wit.
I know I'm from David of 1750 and that his father's name is supposed to be John Collins but beyond that?

[Drew Blattner]

I have a David Collins born about 1750 in Grayson Co. Virginia. His father was John Collins Sr. born in 1690 in Nansemond Co. Virginia. John Collins first married Mary. He later married Martha Demsey in 1720 in Bertie Co, NC. She was born in 1700. He had nine children with her. Joseph 1726, Michael 1728, Demsey 1735, Jesse 1737, William 1741, Absolom 1742, John Jr 1743, Martha 1745, David 1750.

I got this information from Rootsweb. Jackie Ullom was the author.

[collins]

Not sure exactly where the information originated, but I know I saw the information here:
The source for John Collins Sr. being David Collins 1750's father is from Robert Dooms Jr. on Gencircles at the following URL:

http://www.gencircles.com/users/rldooms/39

I know Jackie. Tell her hello from Scott in Texas. She and Robert may have been sharing information.

Again how do we know for a fact that the David Collins b.1750 in that information is the same as our David Collins born 1748 to 1750?

www.tamandmichael.com/COLHIST5.htm

Michael Collins Dunn doesn't connect our Collinses with his Colonial Collines which is where the Robert Dooms and Jackie Ullom material leads back to. Although they don't seem to connect completly by way of genealogy there have been statements made by some that these families are intermarried and thus at this piont are in fact related at present, just not back then, per Robert K. Thomas (Native American field ethnographer).

No one has yet bridged that gap of which one of the John Collinses was our David's father.
We find David and the others in the Montegomery/Grayson county areas and then to the New River areas od Wilkes and Ashe and surrounding counties and from there to Kentucky and Tennessee.

Per Karen Newell her Amos Collins line is direct male line related to Vardy Collins discovered by DNA testing. My father Leon Preston Collins was tested a few months back and shares that direct male link via DNA testing through RelativeGenetics Collins DNA Project run by Roger Collins. I tested to clearify the genealogy of my Leonard Harold Collins as son of David Collins 1799 Knox County, KY son of Aaron son of David 1750. My father and I are double descedented from David Collins of 1750 via David 1750's sons Aaron and Isiah, Sr. I can't remember which person emailed me either Karen or Roger but they said there was a connection to the Colonial Collins lines some how back in the past.

Then of coarse we have to look at the Saylerville Indian community in Kentucky. That adds more proofs that our Collins lines were considered Christian Saponi Indians not only by themselves but also by the government and communities they lived in. See the following:

Full Citation & Abstract

PUBLICATION NUMBER AAT 3115947

TITLE 'Who's your people?': Cumulative identity among the Salyersville Indian population of Kentucky's Appalachia and the midwest muckfields, 1677--2000

AUTHOR Carlson, Richard Allen, Jr.

DEGREE PhD

SCHOOL MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY

DATE 2003

PAGES 711

ADVISER Cleland, Charles

ISBN 0-496-63383-X

SOURCE DAI-A 64/12, p. 4514, Jun 2004

SUBJECT ANTHROPOLOGY, CULTURAL (0326); HISTORY, UNITED STATES (0337); SOCIOLOGY, ETHNIC AND RACIAL STUDIES (0631)

DIGITAL FORMATS 31.54Mb image-only PDF




24 page Preview




The Salyersville Indian Population is a composite of Cherokee, Saponi and “Old Virginia” Indian families that consolidated in the late colonial period to form a distinct Appalachian Indian population. The families have preserved their identity as an Indian people ever since. An analysis of this identity through time shows that Salyersville Indian identity is the product of cumulative historical actions guided by specific sociocultural processes that subvert notions regarding race, class, ethnicity, religiosity, or political affiliation. In this case, the effective operational definition of Indian identity is based on family relations that provide kinship links, social integration, cooperative efforts, sources of knowledge and emotional support. Highlighting the functional aspects of kin arrangements—articulated through and supported by interrelated family groups—over time reveals that the economic and social cooperation of kin works to maintain the size and strength of the families. The operationalization of kinship acts to focus Salyersville Indian identity on a definition of “kin” which subsumes various attitudes about race and ethnicity that are encountered at specific times and under specific circumstances. By assigning kinship a higher priority than relations based upon religious, class or political affiliation, the Salyersville Indians have managed to keep their kin affiliations and thus their Indian identity, from being obscured over time. Family is the vehicle by which this cumulative identity as “Indian” has been maintained. That is because kinship is the only constant serving to define and maintain Salyersville Indian identity through time and space.

http://wwwlib.umi.com/dissertations/fullcit/3115947

It is entitled "Who's your people: Cumulative identity amoung Salyerville Indian population of Kentucky's Appalachia and the midwest muckfields, 1677-2000"

ISBN#0-496-63383-x
Michigan State University 2003 36.00


Then you have the Warrascoyack Info.

http://tdcweb.com/tdfhsdr/driver/books/w&m_quarter1.htm

This is information concerning the Warrascoyack Plantation. William and Thomas Collins are two of only three colonist that survive the attack at Warrascoyack. The Warrascoyack were a Powhaten tribe. I post this as an additive to the information for the surrounding area being discussed since the Saponi supposedly had people in this general vicinity. Perhaps they had gone there to help fight the uprisings. This information would seem to bolster an early interaction with Indians by the Colonial Collinses.

Any way you come at it they were Europeans that intermarried with Indians. That much is fact. Why do the male line DNA test show European aelles in DNA tests? Because at the top of that line was a European (white man) that intermarried with Indians and had children. John Ross descendants would test with similar results and John Ross was the principle Chief of the Cherokee Nation (west) and a well known mixed blood.

I'm hoping Bill will chime in here.

[Linda]

I have a David Collins born about 1750 in Grayson Co. Virginia. His father was John Collins Sr. born in 1690 in Nansemond Co. Virginia. John Collins first married Mary. He later married Martha Demsey in 1720 in Bertie Co, NC. She was born in 1700. He had nine children with her. Joseph 1726, Michael 1728, Demsey 1735, Jesse 1737, William 1741, Absolom 1742, John Jr 1743, Martha 1745, David 1750.

I got this information from Rootsweb. Jackie Ullom was the author.

Whoa, Jackie Ullom was the author? I have Ulms. Ullom is a variant. How would I find this on Rootsweb? It might be interesting to see how Ullom is connected to Collins.

[collins]

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi...m3kids&recno=0

[collins]

O.K. now I am very confused.
I am begining to think that David Collins of 1750 is in fact not the father of Isaiah, Aaron, David Jr., Solomon, and etc. Since that David of 1750 is in question, I have to question John Collins as well.
Now the DNA test my father took links my line back to Vardy Collins. So now the problem is who was the Collins men's father?

[Bill Childs]

Most of these questions have been answered and are posted on saponitown.
There are two David Collins and people have copied obviously contradictory information.
The "other one" was born abt. 1758 Bertie Co., NC, and is still there in 1790, 1800 and 1810 census records. Bertie Co is in eastern NC.
His parents are Joseph Collins (1790 & 1800 Bertie Co Census), b.1726 Bertie NC, d. 1802 Bertie NC who m'd Elizabeth Bennett Penny. This Joseph left a Will in Bertie, writted 2 June 1799, naming his children.
Joseph Collins's parents are purported to be John Collins, b.1690 Nansemond Va, d. 1 Feb 1751/2 Bertie NC who m'd Martha Dempsey. This line is white on all records.
At the time this Collins family line is documented to be in Bertie Co., NC, the group comprising David Collins, b.1750, is documented as being in western Virginia and later in western NC - a long way from Bertie Co.

While I like to keep an open mind, the reference to a David Collins, b.1750 in "Grayson Co., Va" with a mother Martha Dempsey is factually in error on a number of accounts, having been confused with the David Collins of Bertie Co., NC, whose grandmother is purported to be Martha Dempsey.

1) Grayson didn't exist until 1793 when it was created from Wythe Co., Va.

2) The David Collins, b.1750, is listed on the 1790 Wilkes Co., NC census along with Ambrose, George, Hardy (Vardy?), Martin and Valentine Collins as well as Joel, Archibald, Ezekiel, Jordan & Andrew Gibson and Jo. Nicols, Jesse Bolin (and Henry Hardin). This, at the same time the "other one" is listed on the Bertie Co census.

3) Rowan County North Carolina Marriage Bonds:
1 Oct 1772. David Collins and Thompsey Posting.
Bondsmen: Henry Zeody, Alex Brown.

4) Who are the parents of David, b.1750? John Collins the Saponi (1742 Orange Co., Va Court Records) is an excellent candidate but as they were "living as Indians in Virginia" having "stolen" the Collins surname for their use and recorded as living on "Indian Lands" in an area west of Montgomery Co., Va, I doubt you can prove it in as direct a way as you would in more recent times with white people.

5) Please read some of the documented background listed as links in the "Share Historical Research" section of saponitown....here are a couple...

http://www.rootsweb.com/~wvnichol/bd...emttocross.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/wv2/dillon1...latt_river.htm
(this last URL didn't wrap properly - I'll see if I can get it to work)
There are more.

[michaeldunn]

I'm the Michael Collins Dunn whose Collins family history on my website at http://www.tamandmichael.com/collins.htm has been cited in this and other discussions on these forums. I just found your website and thought I'd contribute a few items from my own researches.

I know of no direct native ancestry in my Collins line, but there are some interesting links, and some of my researches might help sort out some of the Collins questions you're dealing with here.

1. There are definitely links between the Collinses of Nansemond and Isle of Wight County, Virginia, Bertie County, North Carolina, and Franklin County, NC. My own line went from Isle of Wight/Nansemond (right on the border; they show up in both tax lists) direct to Franklin County, but the Bertie County Collinses are linked. THe exact links are a bit hazy but John Collins of Bertie County had a son, Michael Collins, who clearly settled in the part of Bute County that later became Franklin. This Michael was located in the same general area as James Collins and wife Esther who moved directly to Bute from the area along the Isle of Wight/Nansemond line. Some of this is documented in the online Collins history; some I'd have to dig out the deeds for.

2. The son of James Collins who moved from Isle of Wight to later Franklin Co., NC, also James Collins (1758-1838) married Temperance Vinson in 1784. She seems to have come from Northampton County, NC, but of a line with deep roots in Tidewater Virginia, probably in the Nansemond and Norfolk areas. Her father was David Vinson, and his estate settlement shows several daughters, one of whom, Rachel Vinson, a sister of Temperance, married a Theophilus Bass, who also lived in Franklin Co. and eventually moved to Tennessee.When they left, they sold their land to James Collins. Another daughter, Charity Vinson, is listed as married to a man named Vass, which may be a mistake for or variant of another Bass. This Theophilus Bass shows up in various pedigrees of the Nanesmond County family of that name (I haven't done the Bass research myself and can't testify to the accuracy), but if correct he would be of the same family from which the recent chiefs of the Nansemond Indians come from. Most of the Nansemond chiefs in the past century have been named Bass. That at least suggests some native link for some of the famlies in NE North Carolina, and possible connections to the Bass surname in other areas.


I don't know if I've helped any or muddied the waters further, but thought I'd contribute this.

Michael Dunn

[collins]

Bill, I was re-reading your response and it finally sank in what you are saying.
At least at this piont I can finally eliminate several Collins lines that many in family have been looking at saving a lot of headaches and time. Your so right on the geography. David was in a completely different area of N.C. and VA. You have marked a milestone for me. You see when I first read this response I was perplexed by it cause it didn't fully sink in and I don't know how I could have missed such an obvious error on the dates, names, and places. I guess it's like not seeing the forest for the trees or visa versa in this case.
One of my main objectives in the past few years has been to track these families and eliminate all possibilities. Basically to get to the meat of the matter, which line is which. I am very excited by this latest realization.
Thank you for explaining that, it's like a light coming on in a dark cave.

Now on to the task of sorting out the DNA results and determining the generation of John Collins, Vardy, David, William and etc.

[collins]

Most of these questions have been answered and are posted on saponitown.
There are two David Collins and people have copied obviously contradictory information.
The "other one" was born abt. 1758 Bertie Co., NC, and is still there in 1790, 1800 and 1810 census records. Bertie Co is in eastern NC.
His parents are Joseph Collins (1790 & 1800 Bertie Co Census), b.1726 Bertie NC, d. 1802 Bertie NC who m'd Elizabeth Bennett Penny. This Joseph left a Will in Bertie, writted 2 June 1799, naming his children.
Joseph Collins's parents are purported to be John Collins, b.1690 Nansemond Va, d. 1 Feb 1751/2 Bertie NC who m'd Martha Dempsey. This line is white on all records.
At the time this Collins family line is documented to be in Bertie Co., NC, the group comprising David Collins, b.1750, is documented as being in western Virginia and later in western NC - a long way from Bertie Co.

While I like to keep an open mind, the reference to a David Collins, b.1750 in "Grayson Co., Va" with a mother Martha Dempsey is factually in error on a number of accounts, having been confused with the David Collins of Bertie Co., NC, whose grandmother is purported to be Martha Dempsey.

1) Grayson didn't exist until 1793 when it was created from Wythe Co., Va.

2) The David Collins, b.1750, is listed on the 1790 Wilkes Co., NC census along with Ambrose, George, Hardy (Vardy?), Martin and Valentine Collins as well as Joel, Archibald, Ezekiel, Jordan & Andrew Gibson and Jo. Nicols, Jesse Bolin (and Henry Hardin). This, at the same time the "other one" is listed on the Bertie Co census.

3) Rowan County North Carolina Marriage Bonds:
1 Oct 1772. David Collins and Thompsey Posting.
Bondsmen: Henry Zeody, Alex Brown.

4) Who are the parents of David, b.1750? John Collins the Saponi (1742 Orange Co., Va Court Records) is an excellent candidate but as they were "living as Indians in Virginia" having "stolen" the Collins surname for their use and recorded as living on "Indian Lands" in an area west of Montgomery Co., Va, I doubt you can prove it in as direct a way as you would in more recent times with white people.

5) Please read some of the documented background listed as links in the "Share Historical Research" section of saponitown....here are a couple...

http://www.rootsweb.com/~wvnichol/bd...emttocross.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/wv2/dillon1...latt_river.htm
(this last URL didn't wrap properly - I'll see if I can get it to work)
There are more.

Bringing this forward for Beeleaf showing Martha Dempsey error.

[Ga-Nc Collins]

I think I seen the name Ullm on some of the geneaology websites before when I was doing collins research awhile back also.

[Ga-Nc Collins]

Here is the family tree for the Bertie county NC collins.

David collins, Martha Dempsey, John collins etc.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ngmann/Gilstrap/collins.html

Alot of them ended up in Ga

I would say they are related to the Josiah collins.....on his mother's line is the Bunch family....
http://www.ncmuseumofhistory.org/col...rset.place.pdf

[collins]

That would be Jackie Ullom. She is a cousin that has the Dempsey information all wrong.

[Ga-Nc Collins]

yea thats the name I saw before.

I just noticed that the above linked collins family tree for david collins...it has Josiah collins....he is apprently a grand son or somthing of David Collins. That family tree was last revised on jan 8 2008.