"Give me a Sign"

[Tom]

Hello All, well the flags a flop.
I have recently started silversmithing, and since Linda has asked me to have some input into the Great Trading Path site, here's the skinny, lets come up with a silver pin? pendant that can be sold on the site to members , 3 arrow configuration maybe, maybe something else.
If any one is interested enough to reply please do so, thanx .

[Linda]

I think that's a great idea. I'll go for it.

We need to confirm what configuration other groups are using and make sure ours is different so nobody feels like we're ripping them. For silver, I guess one arrow needs to cross the others. I think the Monacan are using something like that. I better see what it is, so we can figure out a sufficiently different variation.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Just a thought but what about a man's fist holding onto the three arrows.

Brenda

[techteach]

Tom:

You have my vote. I am not sure how others feel, it might be construed as exclusionary, but what about adding symbols of some of the theories for the Blackfoot ID, i.e. darker moccasins and/or flames, for the burned fields?

Cindy

[Dan Akin]

Linda; I think you're right. The symbol for the Monacan Confederacy was three arrows. How you had your three arrows configured signified what member tribe you belonged to. (I think that's how that goes.)
Dan Akin.

[Tom]

GGGGreat! I'll leave the design up to all of you when something is decided, I'll get on it.
Perhaps we can have all of our older posters here to join in aswell, I'd like to see as many as possble.
If you look on the John White sketches, the people sitting or croutching around pillars with faces carved into them( on the very best of the reproductions that I have seen) , the arrow patterns on the backs of the people were clearly seen, !
I recall that the Cherokee people used to use crossed pins to signify the members of the keetowa society, so I think that we could do something simular here aswell, and since silver is affordable to all it would be a nice addition to our store house of gems.
In time I can decide what type of manufacturing methods to use, if there's a large interest, casting may be the way to go, if not hand building will siffice.
This is a really nice way to say Iam a "Sixsapaha.!
Best To All Tom

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

This was takenfrom the History of Pennsylvania Co. I posted on the other section of the forum.


The Indians of Pittsylvania belonged to the Siouian race, and their tribal name was Sapony, their tribal sign, three arrow heads painted on the shoulder.

"on the shoulder" what does this mean?

Brenda

[Linda]

I think it means a tattoo on the shoulder

[Patty]

I think this is a really great idea! :)

[Linda]

One of the Bureau of Ethnology books had the illustrations of the arrows as they were done. It's not Swanton. Does anybody else have access to this series? It's generally in a large university library. The book I'm thinking about is devoted to the subject of dress, ornamentation, etc. in the southeast. I have no plans to go to Greenville in the next week or so. Can anybody else help?

[techteach]

Linda:

I can look in our library on Wednesday but I would not be surprised if we had this series. I will check though.

Cindy

[Linda]

Great! Tom, do you remember the name/author of this book? I think you and I have talked about it before.

[Tom]

This series may be the "hand book to North American Indians " a series put out by the Smithsonian, it has a red block on the spine and there was about 8-10 when I checked last.
This series is divided into cultural areas southeast, northeast, subarctic, plains etc.
If this is the book!/ but remember that the southeastrern tribal area does not have as much materials devoted to it as other areas, a real dissapointment for me and Iam sure all of us when we start searching.
Also keep in mind the other citation that I had mentioned since it did have some very good info.
Oh the single book that may also have these arrow patterns is in J. R. Swantons books, I believe that he did the best compilations, Indians of the Southeast etc and Indians of the Lower MS valley etc, all very good papers.
We can and should keep the 3 arrows patterns, we just need to find a method of holding them together, so keep this in mind when looking for a design; since we are scattered far and wide, and we all have been searching etc use these simularities to help in the design.
lastly we should all share in this and if we should settle on a particular pattern I hope that others will not be upset.
This is something that I would really like to see, like Lindas camp out( bringing people together) I believe that we need some sort of article to help " id " our group.
All the best Tom

[Bill Childs]

The pin/pendant is a good idea.

[techteach]

Are the 3 arrows on the seal on the Monacan web site the symbol that we are looking for? They are in the upper left-hand corner. One goes up, one down and a third goes across.

Cindy

[Greywolf]

Is this the picture you are looking for? If I understand correctly several arrows originally indicated a confederacy. It is the “Bureau of American Ethnology” Bulletin 137 in the book “The Indians of the Southeastern United States” by John R. Swanton

http://www.saponitown.com/images/3arrows.gif

[Linda]

YES! THANKS. That's the picture I was talking about, and the citation. Do you have the text explaining a, b, c, etc?

Techteach, yes, that's the Monacan variation. We have to do something different nobody else is using.

[Tom]

It would be nice to find something that we could coorelate to this group., also look for that pic that I have mentioned aswell since it has a good range of arrow patterns we might find that some of these are there or something unaccounted for.

I'll do a short search to see if i can find a link to the image that i mentioned.

There is a much clearer image of this at http://www.vahistorical.org/cole/1.4htm.

[techteach]

I did not look in the library today. I figured that since the pic that Greywolf posted was the one that was wanted, I did not need to. I will be back to the Chicago campus on Friday with some time. Let me know if I need to look for something else.

Cindy

[Linda]

Cindy, if you get a chance, it would be nice to get the text associated with this picture. Hopefully, it will tell what the ABC's stand for.

[techteach]

OK, I will try to check on Friday. I don't hold out much hope. We are a small university and with the Newbury in town, they likely rely on inter-library loan.

Cindy

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

If you look at the sketch there is a image of "F" on the shoulders. Is this what you you mentioned in previous post? That does not appear to me to be arrows and I wonder what the meaning could be:confused:

[Linda]

I looked at the higher resolution image Graywolf sent me and that's either just shading of the shoulder blade, or it's the swastika or whirlwind pattern you see to the right. That sort of pattern was found on an amulet at Gaston, NC, thought to be Occoneechi.

[techteach]

Linda:

I am checking the online catalog for my university. We appear to have Swanton's "Indian Tribes of North America." Is this the book I am looking for? If so, depending on how long my meetings are tomorrow morning, I will check it out. I think I will likely have the afternoon to do it.

Cindy

[techteach]

Sorry, Linda. We do not appear to have this book in our library. We have a couple of other Swanton books, and I checked a couple of others too, but wouldn't you know it, the volume 14, Southeastern Indians, volume of the Smithsonian Handbook is missing.

Cindy

[Linda]

Thanks for looking. That volume is usually gone from our library too.

[Tom]

Hey Everyone, I have been searching on the web for as much as possible re these arrow motifs and what I have mentioned earlier re, seeing more than one reference, of course to no avail.
One site I did find that is very interesting is the virtual Va site, I had typed in the words "indian village of Secotan" and uo popped a comparitve page that has Whites water colours and de Bry's copper engravings , we should all have a look at this page(s).
Also I know that when I find the other info re. the people w/ these patterns I'll try and post something to it, perhaps the image Grey hawk has already posted is a complitation of all those patterns Iam just not sure, in which case I may be looking for nothing we don't already have.
Something to keep in mind is that when we find these patterns meanings and you folks decide what to use, we will also need something to have the arrows attached to for a base , this means that we will need some input from the crowd, all the best Tom
Surprize,,,,,It is the "Indians dancing Around a Circle of posts" this image shows 3 arrows being used, but is there more of these images with arrow atterns?

[Croatan1]

Hello Folks,
Hey Linda it's been a while since we last spoke. I see lots has been goin on since I've been away(I'm a MBA-grad student)plus work full time.Haven't been able to visit and keep up as much as I would like,but gonna try harder.I don't wanna be left out of all the "Saponi/Blackfoot" happen's.I Think a silver pin in the design Brenda mentioned sounds great for starters.

In Blood
Nicole...:)

[Patty]

I will check our library here in Columbus to see if we have the book. I don't know how soon I can do that, I will be out of town a lot this week, but I will get over there ASAP.

Being a library in a state capitol with a large university it SHOULD have everything.......

[Croatan1]

Hey Guys,
If any of you wanna go deeply hardcore traditional why don't you guys join me in getting(I have them already) a tribal mark tattoo. What inspired me to get them was I have a copy of "Indians in Seventeenth VA" By Ben C.McCary.There are some great sketches of native VA
Indians of various tribes including Saponi/Tutelo/Mohetan,etc often painted/marked themselves....Come-join me my sisters & brothers...:D :D :D ;)


In Blood
Nicole

[Patty]

Nicole,

I've been interested in getting a tattoo since I was in my 20's. I thought about it again seriously when I turned 40. I figure if I wait long enough, it will still look good when I die.

Gravity is not kind!:D

Patty

[Bill Childs]

And cosmologists refer to gravity as the "weak force"........
just goes to show ya what they don't know !

[Tom]

Hello All, I hope that with all of the interest in this that we can come up with as much available material as possible and have it posted here.
We should have as many patterns as are known, if someone can find one pattern that may pretain to Blackfoot that would be great, but I think that we would be very lucky if that happened.
Probably what may happen is that we have to pick from several patterns and start from there.
What we need to do is also find something to attach or hold the 3 arrows to and that small piece will have a great deal of say.
I would like to say that we need to try and post all the materials that we are discussing here.
Please all of you should look at the comparisons between Whites colors and de Brys plates there is a huge difference.
If any one can post the info from Mc cary's book that would be very nice for us viewers.
All the best Tom

[techteach]

Here's a few URL's. Two versions of the tatooed person, one color and one black and white : http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/hariot/ill25b.html

http://www.mariner.org/chesapeakebay/native/nam009.html

and another URL of artifacts from a Siouan village if pictures might be considered: http://rla.unc.edu/lessons/Lesson/L405/H405g.htm

Techteach

[Croatan1]

Techteach,
Thanks for shaing the great pic/sketches,I have some of the same ones.Primarily where I got the idea to mark myself.I think tribal mark tattoos can be a beautiful expression of cultural identity and affinity to ancestors.

In Blood
Nicole

[Dan Akin]

To all; You have the arrow groupings. Would the other figures in the drawing represent arrangements of crossed calumets (peace pipes)? Just wondering!
Dan.

[Bill Childs]

Techteach, thanks.
Dan, could be calumets. Maybe a combination geometric pattern.
Don't know.

[Bill Childs]

Hey Tom. Do you use an oven and smelt metals or do you pound 'em out?

[Tom]

Hello Bill, if a series of the same object is made over and over then casting is the best method to be used, casting grain is melted in a "cup" and the molten metal is forced into the negative form, each negative form is started with a wax cast, and then put into a plaster, this is burned out and then the metal is forced into the form, afterwards it's realeased from the mold and cleaned up., if the object is a one of a kind or fairly simple to do then it can be made by hand over and over, occassionally aided by the use of a press etc.
For this project I'd like to combine several methods and hand build the pins, it may be that we eventually have more than one type, etc.

Dan the other designs on the head mans back look like arrangments of a form of wind design a swastika , that is a calendar device combining the solarand the lunar calendar.

Almost everyone on the planet had this swastika pattern. The deesign on the mans back "f"? looks like a patern used in cane baskets, "E" resmbles the swastika; one intersting observation here is that only "D" consists of 3 arrows.

[Bill Childs]

Tom, thanks for the inforomation on how you do that. It's very interesting because my brother uses an oven to make things, also.
I too noticed that only one of the tatooed designs followed the three arrows motif. My take on that illustration is that the tatooed figure showed designs "representative" of "the Indians of Virginia" and includes many designs from many different groups, not necessarily Siouan.
I hope my original reluctance about a flag didn't hurt your feelings. That wasn't my intent. A flag just doesn't seem appropriate but that's only my opinion that shouldn't be construed to be encumbent on anyone elses action. Everyone has a say and Little GrandMother Linda has the final say :)
Bill

[Linda]

Young as my kids are they better NOT be making me a grandmother anytime soon.

[Bill Childs]

It's a mark of respect.
A male, when speaking to or of a girl or woman younger than himself, refers to her as a "Little GrandMother".
One older is "GrandMother".
I thought it was generally understood - sorry - no disrespect was intended.

[Tom]

Hello Everyone, I hope that we find the meanings to the arrow patterns soon, I'd like to see this come together.
no issue taken on the flag idea Bill, I just want something that we can all share collectively in and I think that the pin is better than the flag anyway.
If anyone has any ideas for pin patterns please I think members should start putting them down on paper.

Brenda had a nice idea, and I think that she may have been the only one to suggest one so far.
I hope that everyone joins in here and does the same.
Has anyone looked into the dig records for some of the eastrern souian towns?
Best to All Tom

[techteach]

Since Linda said that a rattlesnake has been found at the dig sites, how about a rattlesnake wrapped around the three arrows with the head shown at the side? Maybe Linda has the URL for the site where this rattlesnake can be found. I have seen it, but I don't know where I saw it.

Techteach

[Croatan1]

TechTeach,
Great idea...the snake and arrow combination.Hope Linda can find the URL....

In Blood

Nicole

[techteach]

Actually, I saw those pictures posted on this forum. I just did a search. They are in the old postings in the material section. I also found a couple of URLs myself: http://www.usaplaza.com/scripts/wcom_producttree.asp?StoreID=1008&ProductID=30775 and http://www.artifactsetc.com/special2.htm However, I plead ignorance about whose artifacts these are and what significance a rattlesnake might have, so maybe someone else knows.

Techteach

[Tom]

Hell All , the rattles snake is a good choice.
The use of a rattle snake motif in southeatern tribal affairs was a very powerful element, it shows up on all types of items , baskets, blow guns, darts, pottery etc, aswell there is a Cherokee booger dance mask with a rattle snake on the head...... it was used as a protective device.
There are many versions of this type of pattern on shell gorgets and so many variations over a wide spread area on a simular theme, including gaurdian of the house, one book mentioned a particular type buried only with high status women.
The use of diamond patterns in bead work is also related to the rattle snake, especially amongst the Seminole groups.
There is a rattle snake motif amongst the Louisiana tribes (and the western southeast) that is a dotted curvuliear pattern used on baskets, from the caddos and Chetimachas probably others aswell.
I hope this helps, all the best Tom

[Bill Childs]

And there's the famous Snake Mound (identified as Adena Culture) in Southern Ohio in an area inhabited by the Siouan speaking Mosopelea about 1670 per Swanton's map in "Indian Tribes of North America".
On p.230 of that source... "Mosopelea. This tribe may have lived within the boundaries of Kentucky for a brief time, perhaps at the mouth of the Cumberland River, when they were on their way from Ohio to the lower Mississippi."

[techteach]

Here's another URL with 4 different snakes:

http://www.mississippian-artifacts.com/html/shellorn.html

My daughter, a freshman in college, who took Native American studies this year, thinks that its meaning is protection, that the snake is dangerous and protects the wearer. If this is true, I like it better than what this page says - it says it has a meaning of age. As one about to hit one of those age milestones in a couple of weeks, I prefer her description. Freaked me out when I found this page - one gorget was found at Lick Creek in Tennessee, I believe. My people were in PA and Ohio. The PA location has a Lick Creek and the Ohio county was Licking.

Techteach

[Linda]

This is the Cheraw rattlesnake, found in children's burials:

http://www.saponitown.com/T-ShirtProject/Images/front.jpg

We used it to make a logo for T-shirts we had made for a homecoming in Brunswick County. I still have a lot of them. Anybody interested? We were selling them for $15 each. Here's the back of the shirt.

http://www.saponitown.com/T-ShirtProject/Images/back.jpg

I think this rattlesnake motif is way too busy to combine with any other elements like arrows. Also, I've been talking lately to someone prominent in a Cheraw community that's still in their original haunts, south of the Roanoke, west of Raleigh. Anyway, it's making me wonder if it's right to adopt those motifs. There's also this whirlwind motif, which was found at Gaston, NC, presumably Occoneechi, though I'm not sure why that identification could be so positive.

http://www.saponitown.com/images/largeGorget2.jpg

[Linda]

Here's some beadwork I did taking off on the whirlwind:

http://www.saponitown.com/images/whirlwind.JPG

And here's my ex modeling the T-shirt I made.

http://www.saponitown.com/images/barry-golf-course5.jpg

[Croatan1]

Linda,
I can see and agree with you about whether it's proper to adopt this motif for us. I think the simpler we keep the initial design the easier it would be to develope
a S.E. Blackfoot tribal signia.

In Blood
Nicole


P.S. The tee shirt looks great....

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

You wanted ideas so I ask my granddaughter who is an graduated art student and has been making her own jewerly since she was 16 to give me a couple ideas.

1) A copper arrow pin with the name on the side of the arrow
(could also be done in sterling silver or gold)

2) Indians used rocks for signs to mark paths; a pin with a message.

3) A combination of three arrows to represent the tri-racial which the majority of us are.

Amanda also makes beaded jewerly, key chains, and belts. She doesn't have the native american patterns but if she did I am sure she could put a lot of small things together.

BTW: The snake idea might be native american but the white part of me gets the willies just thinking of rattlesnakes....:rolleyes:

[Tom]

Hello All, well to try and answer some questions and comments; Bill the Mesopelea became the Ofo or Ofogoula , the last lady to ID as Ofo was Alice Picote (peecotee) means tattooed and make refernce to the great Tattooed Serpent last Great Chief of the Natchez..
She was an expert cane basket ma ker and the friend and teacher of several friends of mine, in a way she was the last gaurdian of Ofo traditions and Ofo is a language related to tutelo.
The age attribution also falls into place here since gaurdians are considered to be grandfather/ grandmother types, also there is one part of the milky way that is refered to a a snake pattern and shows up at certain times of the year rather "agie"..
The whirl wind pattern is very neat, but to try and say it just came from one group may be hard , but safe to say from the southern division of the southern Souians.
Whirl winds are related to the the male forces of life, and references to the ancient "wind man" is very common in Cherokee "mythology".
Snakes are always "IFY" but interesting to say many of our tribal nieghbours in the southeast called the the rattle snake "King of the Woods", I was surprized since we do not have the same interpretation up here as other folks.
Linda the tee shirt is really a very cool idea, I like the rosette with the pattern aswell.
Brenda you have some good points and I really enjoy your input.
anyway, All makes for a great discussion here , thanks to All, Tom

[Bill Childs]

Tom,
How right you are in all regards.
The Cherokee reference to snake stories is revealing, in that before they landed where DeSoto met them and history first recorded them, they were in the area of E. Ohio & W. Penn. according to their own origin stories (my dead reckoning puts that prior to abt.1340 AD when the first identifiable "Cherokee" artifacts turn up in the mountains on the Va/Ky border of today, just north of their historic territory).
Being in the "vicinity" of the S. Ohio Snake Mound, it remains circumstancial that they may be the ones who terminated the Adena Culture in that same area.

I digress, and at the risk of getting the cart before the horse...

Whatever final design is selected, I would suggest we give some thought to the material from which it would be made, which does weigh on the ease of producing the final design.
How about "hammered copper"? More prevalent in pre-contact America than silver & gold. Easier to work - less expensive, but more labor intensive?,,,, Tom?
My impresion is that silver and gold, while not unknown, were less frequently imployed in pre-contact time than hammered copper, and avoids the silver/gold stigma - of course, this line of arguement becomes circuitous when one considers that this "stigma" may only exist in my own mind :)
- sorry for injecting levity into a serious discussion.

[Linda]

I've reacted to some metals worn on my skin before, so I'd be leary of copper, unless it wasn't going to contact skin.

[Bill Childs]

hmmm, I never thought about that. You're right. Copper can produce a reaction.

[techteach]

Brenda,et.al: I suggested the snake with the idea that it was seen in artifacts and could wrap around the arrows, but thinking that our own interpretation of a snake would be used, not necessarily the exact one that was found. In fact, it is so fierce-looking, I was hoping that our interpretation would include the swirl motif of a snake with a minimal rattlesnake emphasis. One of the gorgets on http://www.mississippian-artifacts....l/shellorn.html does this.
Again,whatever is selected is fine with me.
Anyone notice that this theme of connected arrows, which is also an Iroquois theme, is on the dollar bill? The eagle holds a cluster of arrows.

Techteach

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Linda,
Gold does the same thing to me....Most women would kill for gold but it puts raised blisters on me. Years ago when I went to the skin doctor he told me that I shouldn't wear anything but sterling silver. He said that most people who have reactions can tolerate sterling. Even my wedding rings had to be sterling.

With a pin tho it would probably be worn on something which would not touch the skin. Just a thought.

[Linda]

I didn't know sterling was okay. I probably was wearing a cheaper grade of silver.

[Tom]

Hello All, well I could produce pins in either one ofcourse would cost less than the other, also a friend of mine showed me a medal he made by etching with mind blowing detail, finer than hair, so it maybe that we also have a type of medal hand made for this aswell, so it could be of a gorget type pattern and a pin with arrows. Diamonds are enough to indicate a rattle snake.
what ever is used will be a very nice choice, just keep it simple, and we'll do fine.
All the best Tom

[Patty]

I managed to get to the library today to take a look at the Swanton book. I found the book and print, but no further information about the meaning of the labeled designs in the print. (ie A, B, C, etc.)

The only info there is what you see on the image Graywolf provided. At the top of the print it says "Bureau of American Ethnology Bulletin 137 Plate 91".

If there is any further information, it's buried deep in the book and would take a thorough reading to find it. All the plates are together in the back of the book, so I'm assuming there are references throughout the book to the various plates in the back.

Here may be another route to search:

http://www.il.proquest.com/research/pd-product-Bureau-of-American-Ethnology-Bulletins-and-Annual-Reports-65.shtml

When I get a chance to get back to the library I'll see if we have access to this collection-perhaps on interlibrary loan.....

[Linda]

Thanks for looking, Patty.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

I found this URL while surfing. Perhaps something here will help in our decision.

http://wolfs_moon.tripod.com/NativeSymbols.html