Saponi / Cherokee

[thunder Hawk]

Greeting , I have work on my Native America Genealogy, for over
the past 12 years , found several things it seems my People came from
Danville, Virgina Area or Pittsylvania Virgina Area I have read several account of history of this area , it seems the white people
came into this Area in 1740, from the history I have read
that the Saponi Nation was the main Nation there at this time
and the Cherokee where there also , according to my Genealogical Records , my people where in 1669, 1695,1705
1669-71 years before the WhiteMan came in to this area,
1695-45 years before the WhiteMan was there, 1705-35 years
before the WhiteMan Came there. My Family the Rainwater`s
Our Surname is in the Cherokee Nation Oklahoma ,Rainwater are
enrolled there, My Question is was our name Orginally Sponi
Name or is it Cherokee. Do any of you know the History
of Danville,or Pittsylvania Virgina other than what I have researched, thank you

[Linda]

Welcome Thunder Hawk. You were able to trace the name 'Rainwater' to Pittsylvania County back to 1669? We'd be interested in knowing that source. Especially Saponi1. She's from Danville.

[vance hawkins]

What do you know about the Rainwater's? They married into my family -- in Arkansas.

My great grandpa was Jeffrey Richey (on grandma's birth certificate, it says her father was born in Powhattan, Arkansas), He was born in 1851 and his father Joseph E. Richey died in 1852. Jeff's mother, who was Sarah Ann Wayland Richey, then married Joseph's brother, Hamilton Woods Richey (Woods was his middle name as well as his mother's maiden name). Sarah died in 1857 and Hamilton married Sarah's sister Mary Wayland. Hamilton and Mary had a son who married a Rainwater girl.

Sarah and Mary were the daughters of William and Elizabeth Wayland. We don't know Elizabeth's maiden name. Their daughter Mary, Hamilton's second wife, had the middle name "Stewart" so that might have been Elizabeth's middle name, seeing we know Hamilron's middle name (Wood) was his mother's maiden name. Maybe that was a family custom) William was one of many children of Nevil Wayland, Junior.

I have seen a website and I think I posted it here but I'll post it again for you, that says another son of Nevil, Jonathan, along with Hugh Rainwater and Terra Stuart or Stewart, started the first Methodist Church in Arkansas about 1815.

Also Hugh Rainwater, probably the son or grandson of the one that started the first Methodist Church in the territory of Arkansas (he would have been too old by then), Hugh Rainwater was the pastor recorded as marrying my great grandparents in 1872, Jeffrey Hoten Richey and Josephine Brown, near Fort Smith, Ar. The Brown's were Cherokee/Chickasaw and moved to Arkansas from Alabama.

One more Rainwater connection, I went to the Troxell website and they have a lot of genealogy material. I went there because they talk about Doublehead and my Gists all appear to be related to Doublehead too, so I was interested in what they said, especially when someone said the Gists were in Kentucky a while before going to Northern Alabama. The Troxells are in the same part of Kentucky the Gists were. Anyway, they have "Rainwater's" marriying into their family.

Oh, some of these Rainwaters, like my ancestors, appear in Le Flore Couty in the Choctaw Naiton but I don't think they enrolled. For a while the Choctaw and Chickasw were united by the US government but it was an uneasy union as the were often at war with one another in Mississippi. It didn't last long and both gained federal recognition as separate tribes. My ancestors later moved into the Chickasaw area further west.

One more thing. Jarret Wayland is found on the roster of troops at Fort Gibson in 1830. Fort Gibson was established to keep the peace between Osage and Cherokee and is in what became the Cherokee Nation after the trail of tears. When the Cherokee were given lands in Arkansas/Oklahoma, they neglected to inform the Osagewho were already there, and so wars broke out and they wre constantly fighting each other. Jarret Wayland was a brother to both Jonathan and William.

Nevil Wayland Jr was a member of the "Melungeon Church" at Stoney Creek, Russell County, Virginia. The same county where Fort Blackmoor was. That fort was said to have been built by "The first settlers and the friendly Indians" who according to Lewis Jarvis were the Melungeons.


Most of this is on line and I can get the links to you for these things, and it is all credible sources.

vance hawkins

ps -- I found the Rainwater surname in SC and/or NC. Also I looked and I -- don't rememebr seeing it amongst the enrolled folks. I must have overlooked it -- it won't be the first time! :) I'd be interested hearing about any enrolled Cherokee with that surname. thanks.

[vance hawkins]

Here is the link to the Rainwater/Waylands and their involvement in belonging to the first Methodist Church in Arkansas

http://www.couchgenweb.com/lawrence/church/walnmeth.htm

Here is an article about Melungeons, some Rainwatrers married Waylands and Richey's and Waylands were at that Melungeon church inVirginia before they went to Arkansas (Richeys lived in the area of trhe Melungeon church too.)

http://www.melungeons.com/articles/january_2003.htm

vance

[thunder Hawk]

Greeting , Vance all of the Rainwater are related, Hugh Rainwater
was Cousin , From Burrell Rainwater and his Grandson James T. Rainwater, was born in 1836, in Cherokee Terr. NorthEast Alabama , had a Brother Joseph Rainwater yes the Rainwater
my line Migration from Started Danville, Vrigina Pittsylvania
to Surry N.C. then to Spartanburg S.C. and 1830 Hall Co. Gerogia
and J.T.Rainwater was Born Cherokee Terr. 1836 Before Removel
of our People the Cherokee, the Our Family Ecsaped he and he
Family went to Paulding Co. Ga and James T. Rainwater went
back to North Alabama and died there in Cullman Alabama and
is Buried in Holly Pond Cem.

[granny]

Can someone tell me if there was a Bolin that wound up at Fort Smith Arkansas who would have been Charokee by blood at the time of the journey from up north,

[Linda]

I wonder if these people were adopted into the Cherokee community. If the Rainwaters started out in Danville, VA, it would seem more likely they were VA Siouan than Cherokee, and Bolin is one of the few documented VA Siouan names. Is it known among Cherokee?

[thunder Hawk]

Originally posted by Linda
I wonder if these people were adopted into the Cherokee community. If the Rainwaters started out in Danville, VA, it would seem more likely they were VA Siouan than Cherokee, and Bolin is one of the few documented VA Siouan names. Is it known among Cherokee?

Yes that was the Question I first Ask , I believe Robert Rainwater
Married a Mary Unknown from North Carolina Mary holds the Key
to this Question Probably Mary was Cherokee, but there alot of
different Nation there in North Carolina at time?:)

[Linda]

Where did you find the documentation about the Rainwaters in Pittsylvania? I haven't heard that name in connection with the Saponi before, but it certainly sounds interesting. Have you found any people by that name on the Cherokee rolls?

[George]

there are 2 Rainwaters on the GUION MILLER ROLLS 1909
they are listed in the back under { Applicants Not Eligible }

there names are

John H Rainwater roll # 17316 he is located in ALABMA

Virgin V.A. roll # 14464 she is also located in ALABAMA


I looked through the following Cherokee rolls and there was no RAINWATERS LISTED

DAWES ROLLS-1898
HENDERSON ROLL -1835
MULLOY ROLL-1848
SILER ROLL -1851
CHAPMAN ROLL-1852
HESTER ROLL-1883
CHURCHILL ROLL-1908
BAKER ROLL-1924

I would suggest you look into those 2 guion miller roll numbers I listed above,as a rule there is a great deal of family history in those applications,try and find a library that has them you can look at them there for free,if you buy them from the cherokee people,they charge you around $25.00 for each application

George

[Linda]

Thanks, George, good work. I've heard about those denied applications, that they are very detailed interviews from the turn of the century.

[vance hawkins]

Thunderhawk, My Nevil Wayland Sr was born in Virginia, was given 220 acres on the Tyger Ribver in SC (he was a veteran of the Revolutionary War) -- I looked it up on a map & saw he lived right next to Spartansburg and I saw the Sexton surname nearby also. After that he was near Tyron or Tryon NC on the NC/SC border before going to Russell or Scott County VA. He died there in 1806 and his son also Nevil Wayland Jr moved to Arkansas 1815 or just before that.

If you are related to Hugh Rainwater, then we have relatives that married one another in Arkansas! One of his descendants married a relative of mine. We are nearly related! :) I'll look that up too and get the names -- right now I just remember seeing that a Richey married a Rainwater -- The Richey was really greatgrandpa's cousin but was raised as a brother (or was it a sister?). I have the documentation written down but I have to look through a pile of stuff to get at it . . . and that might take a while.

Linda, I can't believe how many things I have learned and am learning on your website.

donaddagohv cousin & others,

vance

[Linda]

Congratulations, this Rainwater name is very intriguing, seeing that it's coming out of Pittsylvania county. I'm trying to get Saponi1 to come over here, but I can't raise her today. Remind me. I've got to check on her email.

[thunder Hawk]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by George
there are 2 Rainwaters on the GUION MILLER ROLLS 1909
they are listed in the back under { Applicants Not Eligible }

there names are

John H Rainwater roll # 17316 he is located in ALABMA

Virgin V.A. roll # 14464 she is also located in ALABAMA


I looked through the following Cherokee rolls and there was no RAINWATERS LISTED

DAWES ROLLS-1898
HENDERSON ROLL -1835
MULLOY ROLL-1848
SILER ROLL -1851
CHAPMAN ROLL-1852
HESTER ROLL-1883
CHURCHILL ROLL-1908
BAKER ROLL-1924

I would suggest you look into those 2 guion miller roll numbers I listed above,as a rule there is a great deal of family history in those applications,try and find a library that has them you can look at them there for free,if you buy them from the cherokee people,they charge you around $25.00 for each application

George [/QUOTE

Thanks George, I found the 1851 Drennen Rolls
this was the First Rolls taken after the Trail of Tears the Head of household there is a Rain Water #39 Illinois Didtrict
and in the 1880 Cherokee Nation Census
there is a Cathrine Rainwater F Native Cherokee #1059
Census# D1760
# 1060 Lulie Rainwater Native Cherokee F #D1761
# 1061 Ned Rainwater Native Cherokee M #D1762

[vance hawkins]

I think if you look in the Choctaw Nation you might see the Rainwater surname, but I might be wrong. They are at least on the census records if nothing else.

You mention ancestors in Northern Alabama. I visited that region of Alabama this last Spring because I can trace many of my ancestors there. I was shocked to find a lot of people there today who say they are Cherokee and that they had been there since before the removal. I talked to some Riddles living there and they said they are Cherokee, as well as others. I was in Lawrence Winston and Walker Counties because that is where my ancestors were before going to Arkansas and eventually Indian Territory.

My Indian ancestors went along at least 2 or 3 migration routes. Waylands went straight from Va to Ar. Richeys went from Va to In to Ar to IT. The Brown's and Guesses went from N. Al to Ar to IT. While in N. Al I was looking through old files in libraries, and I remember seeing the Rainwater surname (I already knew they were related to us in Arkansas) and they were near my ancestors in Alabama, too. In Arkansas my Browns married my Richeys in 1872, so although the Rainwaters were close to my Brown's in Norhtern Alabama, it was my Richey's and Waylands who married a Rainwater, not my Brown's.

There are state recognized Cherokee tribes in Alabama and one of them claims to be descended from ancesotrs in this area.

===================

I talked to a Rainwater genealogy researcher on line and he swore up and down that they were NOT Indians. On his Rainwater genealogy web page he said old photos were not reliable because you need to see them in contrast with both White and Indian people because "Old people look Indian" (his words) any how.

I told him his Rainwaters married some of my relatives and showed him a picture of my ancestors, the photos you have seen, Linda -- I told him the father of those 2 Richey boys (grandma's 2 youngest brothers, who were born in the Chickasaw Nation) had a cousin that married a Rainwater. He never e-mailed me responding to my email.

His website said there was no "proof" any Rainwater's were Indian. Well you know my photo shows young people in a rural school, and it has trhe 2 Indian Richey boys (NOT old people) contrasted by all the Caucasian boys and girls next to them, so his argument didn't work there. In my e-mail where I sent the photos as jpgs I asked him if he had any proof, such as he was requiring for Indian blood, that they were white. :) Well, he never answered. This was just a couple of months ago.

He said there were Rainwaters who claimed to be Cherokee but that they were wrong. But I wish he'd have responded. Maybe I can find his web page again. Maybe somebody else will have better luck talking to him.

vance

[vance hawkins]

Here's the website of the fella I was talking about in my last message --

http://www.chronography.com/rainwater/

I hope it helps. Just keep in mind the guy who put it up doesn't seem to want to have any Indian blood.

vance

[CoheeLady]

Vance,

I have met a few family researchers that refuse to believe they have Indian ancestry. Doesn't matter what approach you take, they won't budge. Thought the statement about "old people looking Indian" was funny, I thought I had heard everything! I have come to the conclusion that we can spend our whole life trying to change other people's minds, but it's not worth it. :D
Take care,
CoheeLady

[Linda]

Don't you just love those NOT Indians? We need to put them in a room with all those other people who laugh at how "everybody has an Indian grandmother these days," and see what happens. hahaha.

I wonder, when the NOT Indian starts talking about how ridiculous it is for anybody to WANT to claim Indian blood, how much the other ones will still be laughing. Bet you dollars to doughnuts they'll be running around telling everybody the NOT Indian has an Indian grandmother.

[thunder Hawk]

Originally posted by vance hawkins
I think if you look in the Choctaw Nation you might see the Rainwater surname, but I might be wrong. They are at least on the census records if nothing else.

You mention ancestors in Northern Alabama. I visited that region of Alabama this last Spring because I can trace many of my ancestors there. I was shocked to find a lot of people there today who say they are Cherokee and that they had been there since before the removal. I talked to some Riddles living there and they said they are Cherokee, as well as others. I was in Lawrence Winston and Walker Counties because that is where my ancestors were before going to Arkansas and eventually Indian Territory.

My Indian ancestors went along at least 2 or 3 migration routes. Waylands went straight from Va to Ar. Richeys went from Va to In to Ar to IT. The Brown's and Guesses went from N. Al to Ar to IT. While in N. Al I was looking through old files in libraries, and I remember seeing the Rainwater surname (I already knew they were related to us in Arkansas) and they were near my ancestors in Alabama, too. In Arkansas my Browns married my Richeys in 1872, so although the Rainwaters were close to my Brown's in Norhtern Alabama, it was my Richey's and Waylands who married a Rainwater, not my Brown's.

There are state recognized Cherokee tribes in Alabama and one of them claims to be descended from ancesotrs in this area.

===================

I talked to a Rainwater genealogy researcher on line and he swore up and down that they were NOT Indians. On his Rainwater genealogy web page he said old photos were not reliable because you need to see them in contrast with both White and Indian people because "Old people look Indian" (his words) any how.

I told him his Rainwaters married some of my relatives and showed him a picture of my ancestors, the photos you have seen, Linda -- I told him the father of those 2 Richey boys (grandma's 2 youngest brothers, who were born in the Chickasaw Nation) had a cousin that married a Rainwater. He never e-mailed me responding to my email.

His website said there was no "proof" any Rainwater's were Indian. Well you know my photo shows young people in a rural school, and it has trhe 2 Indian Richey boys (NOT old people) contrasted by all the Caucasian boys and girls next to them, so his argument didn't work there. In my e-mail where I sent the photos as jpgs I asked him if he had any proof, such as he was requiring for Indian blood, that they were white. :) Well, he never answered. This was just a couple of months ago.

He said there were Rainwaters who claimed to be Cherokee but that they were wrong. But I wish he'd have responded. Maybe I can find his web page again. Maybe somebody else will have better luck talking to him.

vance

RAINWATER WAR

YES , there is a war in the Rainwater Family, Susan -Chance Rainwater, Glidie Rainwater Mobly , Robert Albert Rainwater, they have the Rainwater web site and trying to convence all of America
that the Rainwater came from England
they will talk about the Black Rainwaters, but Being Native American , they don`t want to admit, to
and Susan -Chance Rainwater she is only a wife of a Rainwater ,
we need Help in Building the Rainwater Native American web Site
oh yes I have Talk to Bill & Kelley Rainwater who are Enrolled
member of the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma they are very
VERY VERY Mad about this RAINWATER WAR, there email was airforce2@mindspring.com they told me alot about our Rainwater
Native American Genealogy, the Rainwater are from the Paint Clan
the Medicine people, conjurer`s they know our Cherokee History
they where so Mad about it I started to talk about in the E-mail
and Kelley Block my E-mail I never got a Chance to tell them that I was on there side , I did not believe in this Rainwater Web site
I have Many Full Blood Friend in Cherokee Res. Norht Carolina
and in Oklahoma, John Ross he was the Chief of the United Ketoowah Band of Cherokee`s in Oklahoma , he new some Rainwater`s there in Oklahoma, Bullet Standing Deer he is from
North Carolina he told me along time ago about our Rainwater
Name he told me Rainwater was a very very old Cherokee Name
and the Cherokee Nation Knows. And yes there are Rainwater
who Married in the Choctaw Nation I have the Records the Rainwater are also Married into Creek Nation OKlahoma, and also
in the Lakota Nation Rosebud, Matter of fact my son mother my EX-wife is Full Blood Lakota from Rosebud

[thunder Hawk]

GREETING , Freinds I hate to keep talking about our Rainwater
War, it strange that the people of the Rainwater web site don`t
see
Marvin Rainwater , said he is Cherokee, and There is Gregg
A. Rainwater, he is a Native American Actor and Listed on the Native american Actor Gilled he is Cherokee, Osage , Irish descent
it seem , my Question is Where are English Rainwater, even
the Phs. James Leo Rainwater , is Listed as Native American
but they want put that on there web site that we was of Native
American Descent.


Dennis L Rainwater

A.K.A Thunder Hawk

[vance hawkins]

Howdy Dennis, and my other friends here,

Those Rainwaters who married into the Choctaw, I bet those are relqted to the ones who married into my family, because when I found a Rainwater married a Richey, I followed noticed a Rainwater line move into the Choctaw Nation in I believe it was Le Flore County, Oklahoma. My ancestors for a while lived near them. When my great grandparents married, they moved to the Arkansas River just inside Indian Territory in 1871. One side of the river was Sequoyah County and was in in tha Cherokee Naiotn. The other side of the river was Leflore County and was in the Choctaw Nation. It was the 1880s that they moved over to the Chickasaw nation near present day Duncan, Ok. These families knew each other in Lawrence County, Arkansas before all this. These would have been people related to Hugh Rainwater, the Methodist preacher who also wat the pastor that married my great grandparents or a descendent of his with that same name did, anyhow.

Dennis, I am so happy to have run into you here! Your family and mine have a common history, and at least for a generation or 2 or 3, they were friends in Arkansas in 1815 attending the same church, and probably were last in touch with each other in IT into the 1870s -- they married into one anothers family on at least one occasion that I know of. I want you to know these things. My Guesses were Paint also. Brown's were Wolf. My mother was white (German, Scots-Irish mainly) so I am clanless.

well best wishes,
donadagohvi --

vance hawkins

[vance hawkins]

If you are subscribed to www.Ancestry.com and type in "Hamilton Richey" you can find what I have cut and pasted below. Hamilton Richey raised my great grandfather, Jeffrey Hoten Richey. He was his Uncle. Mary Wayland (Hamilton's second wife) was Jeffrey's Aunt. So jeffrey was raised by his Uncle and Aunt, but they were both BLOOD Uncle and BLOOD Aunt, related on both sides. Jeffrey's parents were Joseph Richey and Sarah Wayland. Sarah and Mary were sisters just like Joseph and Hamilton were brothers. So John Henry Richey was a cousin, but they were raised in the same household as brothers. However Jeffrey was 18-19 when John Henry was born so he was probably out of the house by then.

I went ahead and loked this up and am copying and pasting it here as yall've gotten my interest up. :)

The person who created this file has a habit of posting maiden names followed by a hyphen followed my the male's surname. She and I have e-mailed each other many times. For example, when she writes "Johnny Ada Philips- Rainwater, she is saying Ada's mother's maiden name was Philips.

Waylands came to Arkansas in 1815 & Richey's came there in the 1840s.

==================

ID: I15993
Name: Francis RAINWATER
Sex: M
Birth: ABT 1845 in AR
Reference Number: #15993

Marriage 1 Nancy PHILLIPS b: ABT 1850 in AR?

Children
Johnny Ada Phillips- RAINWATER b: ABT 1870 in r. Lawrence Co, AR

==================

John Harrison Wayland- RICHEY
Birth: 1870 in Lawrence Co, AR
Death: 1910 in Lawrence Co, AR

Father: Hamilton Woods Woods- RICHEY b: 29 DEC 1829 in Gibson Co, IN
Mother: Mary J. WAYLAND b: ABT 1834 in r. Lawrence Co, AR

Marriage 1 Johnny Ada Phillips- RAINWATER b: ABT 1870 in r. Lawrence Co, AR
Married: 24 DEC 1894 in Lawrence Co, AR
Children
Elmer Horace Rainwater- RICHEY b: 6 NOV 1896 in Eaton, Lawrence Co, AR
Maudie Lee Rainwater- RICHEY b: 23 FEB 1898 in Eaton, Lawrence Co, AR
Clara Josephine Rainwater- RICHEY b: 14 FEB 1898 in Eaton, Lawrence Co, AR
Parvin Marion Rainwater- RICHEY b: 31 DEC 1900 in r. Lawrence Co, AR
Juddie Rainwater- RICHEY b: 1 OCT 1902 in Eaton, Lawrence Co, AR
Mary Susan Rainwater- RICHEY b: 18 DEC 1903 in Eaton, Lawrence Co, AR
Henrietta Rainwater- RICHEY b: 23 NOV 1906 in Eaton, Lawrence Co, AR
Morris (twin) Rainwater- RICHEY b: 8 DEC 1907 in Eaton, Lawrence Co, AR
Marvin (twin)Rainwater- RICHEY b: 8 DEC 1907 in Eaton, Lawrence Co, AR
Ezra Rainwater- RICHEY b: 12 MAY 1910 in Eaton, Lawrence Co, AR

=====================

Well from this it looks like the Rainwater/Phillips and Waylands/Richey's married each other in the 1890s, in Arkansas, so from 1815 until the early 1900s members of those families that stayed in Arkansas were still neighbors.

vance