Need Facts on the Big Sandy

[Linda]

I heard from a lady last week with some exciting news. Her people come from the Big Sandy in KY (I believe it's also bordering OH). She has the Blackfoot ID in her family, and I know other people with this ID and location.

The Big Sandy is noted on old maps as the Tuterro (Tutelo) River. There are some other tidbits of evidence confirming that the Tutelo were there.

She knows about a burial that was unconvered when an upscale subdivision was put in. It's always haunted her and some others aware of it. They could get no interest from any of the academics in looking at any of the stuff. It sounds like it's been squirreled away safely by private parties, awaiting some interest someday.

She described some of the elements she saw and it may be this is a Tutelo burial ground, right in the vicinity of what appears to be a cabbage patch full of Blackfoot ID'd descendants. Tnis could be the mother load.

Anyway, I can't recall the particulars to any of this evidence concerning the Tutelo presence on the Big Sandy. I need good, meaty academic citations.

Can anybody help me out here?

[George]

this might help a little Linda

INDIAN OCCUPATION AND USE IN NORTHERN AND EASTERN KENTUCKY DURING THE CONTACT PERIOD {1540-1795}
AN INITIAL INVESTIGATION

by A.Gwynn Henderson
Cynthia E. Jobe
Christopher A. Turnbow

UNIVERSITY of KENTUCKY

Page 130
A. the locations of historic indian sites in floyd county were described in a letter dated february 6,1929 To William S.Web from William E. Connelley,Secretary of the kansas state Historical Society {osa:129 Folio Floyd county } Excerpts from this letter follow:

Another village of this same character was on the May farm on the EAST SIDE OF THE BIG SANDY RIVER just below the mouth of Abbotts Creek in Floyd county.the may farm was formerly a mile and a half or 2 miles north of Prestonburg .I have been on the village site and talked with many of the first settlers of that country about it. it was probably a TOTERO village and the TOTEROS were SIOUAN,sometimes known as the shataera indians,I am uncertain now as to whether any relics could be found on the old site or not and it might be difficult to Identify the site ,although it was very plain when i saw it a little more than 50 years ago.
The old people said there were other villages of the kind up the big SANDY RIVER and ESPECIALLY on BEAVER CREEK in Floyd county.It was said that there was village of this kind on the Wireman farm down the BIG SANDY RIVER.

I have more ,I will see about getting it posted this week.
George

[Linda]

Thanks! This is great. Please, keep it coming.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

The Meredith Collins farm was bordered to the May Farm and both men are recorded as being partners in "salt mining". Meredith also recorded as "Meridia" and "Meriday" was granted a deed for 50 acres of land because of his RW service. He later obtained a deed for a track of land 10 miles wide and 30 miles long along John's Creek in what was then Floyd County and later Pike Co. Kentucky. William Collins ,son of Meredith, constructed a grist mill on the Tug Fork of Big Sandy River as early as 1825. The Collins brothers and William's son operated the grist mill and did some logging along the river. They floated the logs down the river for sale. Meredith was listed as Mullato on Floyd Co. 1810 census and fpc on Floyd Co. 1820 census. His third common law wife was Millie Johnson who was the mother of his last son, Levi Collins. Millie and Levi were listed on Floyd Co. records as "slave" however family oral history says they were also Indian.

A Collins cousin took a trip by canoe along the Tug Fork and visited the site of the gristmill and the William Collins farm. She said that as late as the 1950's the building of the old farm house was still standing and they had found the stone foundation of the gristmill . A new house had been built in a field not far away and the old house was setting in ruin. A small family cemetary was also found but with very few readable markers.

I read the book of the "Adventures of Wilburn Waters" where he mentions the Collins Gristmill and stopping at the farm for food and water. I would love to know more. Is it possible that Meredith's people had lived there in the past and when he was alloted land he returned to his homeland?

Brenda

[Linda]

That's what this site may reveal -- that known Saponi were moving to an area they already knew, where there likely were still kinfolk. Thanks for the info. Are these Collins you're mentioning some of those that can be traced to the Collins mentioned in the court documents?

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

I can only get Meredith(Meridia), David, George, and Lewis Collins back to 1776 when they all entered Captain James McDaniel's Fincastle County militia. I tried to find more on the company's activities however it has been a complete dead end.

I contacted a woman that workes at the archives in D.C. and she told me that it is possible that the McDaniel's Company was made up of mixed bloods and that is why there is no record on them. They are listed as RW patroits.

Fincastle County records as few and hard to find. The men entered in 1776 and Fincastle was broken into smaller countiesin 1777. My Collins men appears in Montgomery County militia from 1777-1780's and all four remained together with a John Collins Jr and Elisha Collins joining them.

1771 Botetourt Co Va Tax List (Notes of Brenda Collins Dillon)
John Collins
Samuel Collins
Charles Collins
George Collins

1771 Montgomery Co Va (Wm. Herberts Company)(Notes of Brenda Collins Dillon)
Charles Collins
John Collins (4 tithables)
Samuel Collins (2 tithables)

1772 Montgomery Co Va (Notes of Brenda Collins Dillon)
George Collins
John Collins (4 tithables)
Samuel Collins

Julie M. Case, :fincastle County 1773 Delinquent Tax Lists," Magazine of
Virginia Genealogy 35(3), Summer 1997, 208-212.
p. 210: McKegeah Bunch . . . David Clllens, Elisha Collens, Ambrus Collens,
Samuel Collens, John Collens, Lewis Collens, John Collens Junr.;
p. 211: George Collens, Charls Collens.
p. 212: "James McGavocks List of Delinquents. At a Court held for
Fincastle Decr 6 1774 This List of delinquents on New River & Reed Creek was
received by the Court containing 213 Tithables and is that ought to be
Received by the Vestry of the Parish of Botetourt. W. Ingles"


1773 Montgomery Co Va (Notes of Brenda Collins Dillon)

David Collins
Elisha Collins
Ambrose Collins Indian Land
Samuel Collins Indian Land (2 tithables)
John Collins
Lewis Collins
John Collins Jr
George Collins Indian Land
Charles Collins Indian Land
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
1776 Fincastle-Momtgomery Co.
Christianburg,Va.-signed entry list for RevWar
under Capt. James McDaniel
George Collins
Lewis Collins
David Collins
Meredith Collins


Charles, John, Samuel & George were in Bontourt 1771 tax list, also Micajer
Bunch, Charles & William Sexton. This area later became Grayson County,
Va. -In 1809 George Collins testified in a land dispute in Grayson County,
land on Peach Bottom Creek, that he settled on the land in 1767 (see
Chalkley's Cronicles of the Scotch Irish Vol.2, page 143)"

Brenda Collins Dillon notes:
(Montgomery Co. militia 1780's by Kegly)(Osborn Company )

Benjamin Sexton
Charles Sexton
David Collins
George Collins
* Meredith Collins (enlisted 1776 at age 16, makes him in his 20's)
Lewis Collins (son of John)
Elisha Collins (refused to take Oath of Allegiance 1777)
John Sexton
William Bowlin
William Riddle(son of Moses)
John Riddle (son of Moses)
Samuel Collins
John Collins (Probably a Jr.)



Three of the four are on the Wilkes County NC tax list 1797 and the fourth, George Collins settled on Peach Bottom Creek in Grayson Co. 1767. (according to Chauckley's) David and Lewis followed Vardy Collins in Tennessee but later joined Meredith in Russell County , Va. Vardy Collins the well known Melungeon was the son of Samuel Collins son of Old Thomas collins of the Flatt River in what is today Person's County. According to several books I have read the Melungeons ( Vardy and Shephard) were living as Indians in Virginia before going to Newman's Ridge in Tennessee.

I would love to find a link.

Brenda

[George]

Here is some more information from the above post of mine .

Page 147 paragraph H.
An indian village ,claimed by several historians to be that of the HISTORIC TUTELO Indians,is reported at Hagerhill in johnson county.In a letter to William S. Webb dated 2/6/1929 {osa:1929 Folio Johnson county },Connelley refered to the site as follows.

At hagerhill, which is 2 miles up the big sandy river from paintsville , there was an old indian village. It was on the low rolling hills where the Lick fork of jennys creek turns due west to run into the main stream. the old settlers said the village had been occupied at a period not very remote from the settlement of the country,that there were indications of residences or residence sites over a large tract of land there in the early day.it was always my judgement that this was the village site of indians of the SIOUAN TRIBES.I think you will find some account of it in my "FOUNDING OF HARMON STATION".
there is still some more to come,maybe friday.
George

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Strange.........oral history speaks of Meredith's name being changed from HARMON to COLLINS. Never found anything to prove or disprove this. Eula Collins Conley( a earlier Collins researcher) said she often wondered if Meredith had deserted durning the RW but that never felt right to me as the DAR placed a momument in Pike Co. with his name on it as a patroit. If he had deserted they would never have included his name. We then wondered if the change happened durning his father's time and that is why I am at a dead end.

As for Harmon's Station......I have read that the Harmon Family was wealthy and had many slaves both black and Indian. It is possible this could be the link to the mystery.

George , I am really excited by your postings. I have been trying to find documentation of Indian villages in that area for years. My g-g-grandpa said he used to wander from Pike County down to Harlan Co. and watch from the bushes the young maidens.One day he stole one of them. It was suppose to have been Mary Roark, my g-g- grandmother. In traceing backI have found Mary Roark was the great granddaughter of Aaron Brock aka Chief Red Bird. Of course these are just stories but I am beginning to wonder if there was truth in what old grandpa said.

Brenda

[George]

I n Connelleys book {Founding of Harmon station } in his book
connelley{1910:55 }stated

Above the small cliff at the {flat rock ford } the first explores found a number of decaying cabins.the Ohio indians said the that they and the French had built them many years before,and that they had lived there, they also said that the Toteros or Shatara Indians had lived there before they built the cabins.These Totero Indians had a town on the lick Fork of Jennies creek,extending from the forks of that stream to the point now known as Hager Hill. The Shawnees and the Cherokees pointed out to the early settlers the sites of many towns occupied by the Totero Indians.I shall locate them in some future work {Connelley 1910:55}.

George

[George]

Hall {1928:22} wrote the following about the TUTELO occupation of EATERN KENTUCKY:

East kentucky was practically a vacant land,untenanted at all except for a few hunting camps of mongrel bands of indians from north of the ohio or south of the Tennessee and a few Toteros.

Of the Toteros we have some evidence of there tenancy on the BIG SANDY.they had a village near Hager Hill,one at Cliff,and another on Johns Creek near McCombs in Pike County.Perhaps other villages existed but are lost to history. When the pioneers settled in Johns creek after the turn of the nineteenth century they found the old mud lodges of the scattered Totero below the mouth of the Brushy, untenanted and in ruin. The residence had been gone for a long time,whether victims of the Iroquois or some ohter tribe we do not know .Only the artifacts remind us of there simple life.

Scalf {1950:9} historical iformation is very close to Hall {1928:22}

Scalf {1950:12}:
on Johns creek ,near a spring called by early settlers, EUREKA SPRINGS,and located on the present Thomas James farm at the river branch,They { TUTELO }had a small but permant camp. it was much older then the Hager Hill and the Cliff Encampments,and may have been destroyed by the conquering Iroquois or other tribes.


In George Washingtons journal of 1754 he calls the big sandy {Talleroye Cr}

also on page 181 of the U of K info that I have been quoting
Hana {1911:1:313} says that TUTELO was an ALGONQUIN word and the Seneca would say TOTERO.

the end.
George

[Linda]

Do you see what references this last guy uses for his info? Is it Connelley? The archeologist I'm conversing with is indicating that Connelley is not well accepted in his data. I'm waiting for an answer on why.

Does anybody know what map it is that names it Totero river?

[George]

Linda the MAP that I have is a 1755 Map by Lewis Evans
there is also a map done by mitchell, and one done by Powell.
Connelly IS CORRECT by the map that i have,If somebody got something on Connelly tell them to post it.
George

[Linda]

Hope I hear back from him. Were all three of those guys explorers?

[Linda]

Here's Lewis's map.

http://images.library.uiuc.edu/sid/bin/show_gif.plx?client=maps&image=XF_912.sid

It's kind of hard to find the right portion. I found it and took a screenshot of the area we're discussing.

http://www.saponitown.com/images/totteroy-map.jpg


There's an interesting bit on a site from the University of Southern Maine

http://www.usm.maine.edu/maps/exhibit10/10-01.html


On the other hand, our definition of diaspora may be readily applied to the experiences of many Native American nations. We can trace the manner in which some mid-Atlantic and Northern tribes were squeezed out by European colonists in a unique map from 1755 [3]. This map identified different categories of Native Americans: open lettering represented “Nations extinct” (e.g., the Pequots in eastern Connecticut); shaded lettering represented either the original locations of Indian nations or those nations which were “almost extinct” (e.g., the Nanticokes in Maryland); and, completely black lettering represented “Nations still considerable” (e.g., the several Iroquois nations in New York).

I'm getting cross-eyed trying to read any more of this. I was wondering if this bit about the lettering might be relevant, but I suppose this is the name of a creek or river, not a tribe per se, so I don't know if it would apply.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

George's quote:
Of the Toteros we have some evidence of there tenancy on the BIG SANDY.they had a village near Hager Hill,one at Cliff,and another on Johns Creek near McCombs in Pike County John's Creek

Brenda's said: Meredith obtained a track of land 10 mile wide and 30 miles long on John's Creek. I have the deed for this strip of land but it is on the old handwritting and very difficult to read. I believe it was sold to Henry Newsome.......Crystal has Newsome in her line.

[Linda]

With impeccable timing Airy Dixon (Heriberto Dixon, PhD) has just sent me a copy of an article he's written that has just been published in the "American Indian Culture and Research Journal: 26:3 (200) 63-84

On page 66 there's a paragraph that perhaps explains the confusions brought up in this thread.


Ohio Valley Considerations

The Saponi, Tutelo and Occaneechi languages have been classified as Ohio Valley or Southeastern Siouan. 6 Terrell notes the Mandan language is closely related to both the Winnebago and the Tutelo. This close linguistic relationship tends to suggest that even before they lived in northern Wisconsin, they may have all resided in the Ohio-Kentucky region, for the Tutelo and other Eatern Siouan tribes may have migrated from the Ohio River and its tributaries to the Virginia-Carolinas Piedmont. 7 Henderson notes that there have been many debates surrounding the possibility of Tutelo (and by extension Ohio Valley Siouan) use and occupation along the Big Sandy River in eastern Kentucy. It appears that the Big Sandy River was originally known as the "Tottery" or "Talleroye" (i.d., Tutelo) River.8

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

In traceing backI have found Mary Roark was the great granddaughter of Aaron Brock aka Chief Red Bird. Of course these are just stories but I am beginning to wonder if there was truth in what old grandpa said.
>>>>>>
In surfing last night I found some interesting reading on this subject:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~brockfamily/ChiefRedBird.html

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~brockfamily/BrockAaronSr.html

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~brockfamily/ChiefRedBird-byKBTankersley.html

Check them out and I would love to know what you all think.
Brenda

[Linda]

Interesting people. What did you old grandpa used to say?

[vance hawkins]

those are interesting links, Brenda.

On the first one thre is a map near the Floyd County border with Knott County (heavy Pink Line) is a place called "Wayland". I have Wayland ancestors who were known to be "close" too that location, but nearer to the Tn/Va line. I've recently found them as early as 1770 or 80s near Tryon, NC near the SC border, and also on Tyger River, SC near a place called Spartanburg, SC before that. Later they are in Arkansas and helped start the first Methodist Church in Arkansas

http://www.couchgenweb.com/lawrence/church/walnmeth.htm

Read down half way where it says the families of the Waylands and Rainwaters started the first Methodist Church in Arkansas in 1815. Some of my Richey's married Rainwater's (a son of Hamilton Richey married a granddaughter of Hugh's). Hugh Rainwater was the presiding pastor who performed the marriage ceremony for Jeffrey Hoten Richey and Josephine Brown, my great-grandparents in 1872. I'm thinkin' it might be a son or grandson of the original Hugh, either that or he was an old man by then. Richey's and Waylands did marry one another too and I am descended from them.

Also the second link was interesting. It mentions someone who married a half-Chickasaw named George Colbert. It shows the lineage of this family and they were trying to trace it back to Doublehead. It says --

Children of CHIEF DOUBLEHEAD and CREAT PRIBER are:
i. TUCKAHO5 DOUBLEHEAD, b. Abt. 1758; m. MARGARET MOUNCE, Chery Fork, now Helenwood, TN; b. Abt. 1768.
ii. TUSKIAHOOTE DOUBLEHEAD, b. Abt. 1760; d. Abt. 1817, Colbert Ferry, Colbert Co, AL; m. GEORGE COLBERT, COL; b. 1764; d. January 07, 1839, Ft Towson, IT.
More About GEORGE COLBERT, COL:
Blood: 1/2 Chickasaw

When my great-grandparents (the same Jeffrey and Josephine I just mentioned) moved into the Chickasaw Nation here in Oklahoma, they got a ten year lease to live on the land (this was in the late 1880s). The lease was from a Chickasaw Indian and his last name was "Colbert". Now I wanna look up that document and see what his first name was again as I didn't pay much attention. Now I am thinking maybe they already knew him, or their families paths might have crossed in the past and their families knew of one another. You know Doublehead died on the Tennessee River in NW Alabama. My Brown's/Guesses/Roney's/Black's lived 1 or 2 counties SE of that place. A cousin found in documents in SC where the Waylands were friends with some Brown's there and later the 2 families marry into one another in Arkansas.

It mentions this Col George Colbert who was 1/2 Chickasaw as having died in 1839 in Ft. Towson, IT. That was in the Choctaw Nation & I once knew that location well. My uncle (now deceased) had a farm once just 2 miles from the ruins of that old fort, you couldn't tell where any of the buildings once had been, just trees and vines and piles of bricks and rotting decaying wood. When I recall it it was just scattered piles or rubbush in the woods -- nothing discernable at all really -- but I understand they have done some restoration work on it since then. I was a kid then and I'm 50 now so that was 40 years ago.

I have an old corn-grinding rock with 2 smaller hand stones that you can still see impressions of each finger, and my uncle always called it "Vances Rock" because I found it in on a creek on that farm of his I just mentioned. When he died and they sold his home, those old rocks were left under an old cedar tree. I went by there and saw the old rocks were still there. I just went by & picked them up and took them home with me as it didn't look like anyone else cared for them.

I really don't know how this any of ties together or if it ties together, but it is either a low-probability coincidence or it is something I ought to be looking into a little more.

Thanks --

vance

ps -- i'm editing this a few hours after the original msg -- the ten year lease was from a Chickasaw named "Belton Colbert". It was in the 1880s a good 40 plus years years after George Colbert died. I;'ve since done a google search for this name Col. George Colbert -- he seems to have been an important figure as he signed several treaties foir the Chickasaw, but I haven't had time to learn much about him -- I need more time & let it soak in.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

My gr-Gr-Grandpa told the story of how he came upon a Indian village while huntin. He said he returned several times because a pretty little Indian woman caught his eye. One day when she wandered a distance from the village he stole her for his wife. This was supposely Mary ROARK. Mary was the great granddaughter of Aaron Brock aka Chief Redbird.

I just recieved an email :

Hi Brenda,

I am not sure if you are aware that the Brock family lived with the Collins
and others while in Virginia before moving west. John and William - both
married Indian women - presumably sisters that were also part of the same
Indian community. They were the Tyree family which is a Catawba family that
was brought north by a trader.

The Tyree surname also is found among my BENNETT line. I have never really researched that name. Does anybody know anything about the TYREE family?

Brenda

[Dan Akin]

Brenda;
My gggggrandmother was Sally Ann Stivers and she married my gggggrandfather William Neal. They came to the Higbee Mo. area just north of Boone County from Fayette County Ky.in the 1800's.
Sally Ann Stivers had a 1st. cousin living in Clay County Ky. named George Stivers and he married Letitia/Leathy Tudors. Letitia was the daughter of the cherokee captive Stephen Tudors (and Morning Dawn) who's story is called out in the Aaron Brock webpage you have listed. Stephen was a captive of your grandpa.
George had a son named Elisha Stivers and he married Adeline Benge. Adeline was the greatgranddaughter of Thomas Benge Jr. Thomas was the brother of John "Old Trader" Benge and was the uncle of Cherokee Chief Robert "The Bench" Benge scourge of the old frontier. Thomas and John married the two Lewis sisters Susannah and Elizabeth and also took cherokee wives.
Can you tell me more about Aaron Brock? Do you know names of other families that traveled with Red Bird's band? Are you connected to the Troxells?
What a small world it seems sometimes.
Dan Akin.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Dan,

I have just began the search into this direction. I searched for years for the parents of my Mary Roark Collins and only a few months ago stumbled onto the true line.

I will share something that was sent to me. Perhaps you have it already but it is all I really have at this time. Remember this is not MY research but that of an unknown soul.

Notes for RED BIRD TO-JU-HWA "CHEROKEE":
Red Bird, a descendant (thought to be grandson) of the great War Woman
Cutsuwah that fell at Burnside, Kentucky during the French and Indian War was
a War Chief of the Cumberland Plateau Thunderbolt Chickamaugan Cherokee known
as Chief Cutsuwah, and was also a close relative of Thunderbolt District
Chief Beloved/War Woman Cornblossom, eldest and highly honored daughter of
famous Thunderbolt War Chief Doublehead that was assassinated by conformist
Cherokee.
After the Cherokee Children Massacre, August 10, 1810 at Ywahoo (Cumberland)
Falls
(http://happytrails_2.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/ywahoo.ht

m) by militia from Wayne and Pulaski Counties led by Hiram "Big Tooth"
Gregory in which War Woman Cornblossom and husband War Chief Jacob Troxell
along with War Woman Standing Fern and husband War Chief Peter Troxell son of
Cornblossom fell, Chief Red Bird sent his people into hiding among the
settlers of eastern Kentucky and western Virginia as had been suggested
earlier by Chief Doublehead.
But Big Tooth Gregory's militia feeling they must destroy any remaining
Doublehead bloodline to effectively end any resistance to white settlement
sent assassination teams out searching for Red Bird and his family, resulting
in the assassination of Red Bird, his brother Jack and many of their family
near the mouth of Jacks Creek and the Red Bird River in Clay County, Kentucky
within months of the children's massacre, and thus bringing an end to any
organized Cherokee resistance to white settlement of Kentucky, Tennessee,
north Georgia, and north Alabama.
Evidently Red Bird's wife Rhoda Sizemore along with two sons, Russell and
John (thought to have been other younger children that were killed) escaped
the assassination and managed to give the alarm. A group of settlers (Rhoda's
relatives and friends) led by a Rev. John Gilbert drove the assassins away
and buried the bodies. A historical marker marks the approx. burial site ( I
believe the marker is now missing). This river was named Red Bird in the
Chief's honor, while Jacks Branch was named for Jack.
Many wild "Country Store" stories about Red Bird have been circulated over
the years. Now I see that they are making him a member of the "Whitetop
Laurel Band of Cherokee" (Reprinted in Kentucky Explorer, Volume 11, March
1997). I'll bet he's sure amused, he having been dead almost a hundred years
before that band was formed to assist with the "Eastern Cherokee
Applications". Others would make him "Old Aaron Brock", and while Aaron was
about three quarters Cherokee, and may/may not have been called "Red Bird",
he was most definitely not "Chief Cutsuwah".


Descendants of John Roark:
1 John Roark ca 1790- 1844, d. May 25, 1844 Clay Co., KY, b. ca 1790 TN or VA.
+ Nancy Sloan, m. ca 1813, b. Unknown, d. ca 1829, d/o Thomas Sloan who was
1770 Ireland and Bartheny Brock, d/o Jesse Brock and Rebecca Howard. Jesse
was s/o Aaron Brock b. ca 1721.

2.Mary Roark 1813-1870 My GG grandmother******
2.Daughter Roark 1815-1820
2.James Roark b. ca 1820 Harlan Co., KY
+Mary Jane Asher b. ca 1830
2.Ellender Roark b. 1827 Harlan Co., KY
+Claiborne Smith m. Feb. 8, 1841 Clay Co., KY

Second wife of John Roark:
+Elizabeth Brock b. 1810 VA, d. after 1887 Salt Trace, Harlan Co., KY, d/o Jesse
Brock, Jr. and Sarah Noe. They married March 31, 1831 Harlan Co., KY.

2.Malinda Roark b.August 6, 1830 Harlan Co., KY, d. June 22, 1914 at Mills, Knox Co., KY
+Shadrick M. Shepherd b. ca 1825, d. ca 1867 Clay Co., KY, m. August
22, 1847 Harlan Co., KY.
Second husband of Malinda Roark:
+John North b. ca 1820, m. June 1, 1868 Clay Co., KY

2 John Roark b. Oct. 17, 1831 Clay Co., KY , d. Nov. 7, 1913 Roark, Leslie Co.,
KY.
+Nancy Brock b. May 31,1831 Harlan Co., KY, m. 1855 Clay Co., KY
2 Matlda Roark b. ca 1835
2. Jane Roark b. ca 1837, d. ca 1864 Harlan Co., KY
+ Richard M. Johnson-Helton b. ca 1836, d. Nov. 23, 1902 in Knuckles, KY,
m.1860 Harlan Co., KY.
2 William Roark b. ca 1840
2 Aaron Roark b. ca 1845 Clay Co., KY (probably named for his grandfather,
Aaron Brock)
+ Hetty Brock (cousin to above names Nancy Brock; also a descendant of
Aaron Brock). She was b. ca 1849, m. 1865 Harlan Co., KY.


Names that seem to connect are Collette, Sizemore, Asher, Caldwell, Shephard, Sloan, Helton, & Muncy

Sorry I couldn't be more help.

Brenda

[Dan Akin]

Brenda;
No, you have helped a whole lot. These are important pieces of a greater overall picture that is forming. Like a jigsaw puzzle. Even though there have been some fantastic claims proposed by individuals about Native Americans in Old Kentucky somewhere there lays the true story and history of these people. Yes, they did exist and often right alongside their white neighbors.
One of the most important settlements in the Boone's Lick country here in central Missouri in the time frame of 1813 to 1821 was the Sexton settlement and tavern later called "Persia." (I'll bet this is the same Sexton family that Sexton's Creek was named after in Red Bird's hunting grounds.) One of the settlers here at "Persia"was PETER STIVERS. Down the Boone's Lick Trail at the same time was the salt licks of William Callahan. William is recorded as the first settler in Boone County Mo. He and his wife fought with hostile tribes in the area. William Callahan was accused himself of being an Indian. They say he never denied it. That is in the official Boone County history.The Brocks, and Strongs married into the Callahans.
You see? Pieces of the puzzle.
Dan Akin.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Dan,

Going back even further.........1780's

(Montgomery Co. militia 1780's by Kegly)(Osborn Company )

Benjamin Sexton
Charles Sexton
David Collins
George Collins
* Meredith Collins (enlisted 1776 at age 16, makes him in his 20's)
Lewis Collins (son of John)
Elisha Collins (refused to take Oath of Allegiance 1777)
John Sexton
William Bowlin
William Riddle(son of Moses)
John Riddle (son of Moses)
Samuel Collins
John Collins (Probably a Jr.)

This showes that the Collins and Sexton's were together in what was called Fincastle and when it was divided it became Montgomery Co. Virginia. My guess is if we search in this area we will also find the Brock's and some of the other surnames.

Moses Riddle was listed as "Indian" in Pittsylvania Co. 1767. According to Jack Goins he says there is strong evidence that Moses Riddle was married to either the daughter or sister of Old Thomas Collins. I believe the John SR., and Samuel listed above were sons of Old Thomas Collins and believe one of them to be the father of my Meredith.


Brenda

[Linda]

I just heard back from the lady who contacted me about the burial site. She finally got in touch with the people who live there. They'll be very happy to hear from someone about this, so wish me luck, I'll try and call them tomorrow night. I'm hoping they can send along some email attachment pictures of a few artifacts.

[CoheeLady]

Brenda,
I only know of the Tyree surname in Virginia. They are documented as being "Buffalo Ridge Cherokee".
Sincerely,
CoheeLady

[rosebudsaponi]

Tyree is also located very heavily in the Suffolk/Chesapeake area of VA. I believe that this name was one of the "unchristianized" Nansemond that migrated westward away from the tribe. From what I've been able to tell, this group mingled and married with the Souian of the Piedmont and continued their travel westward.

[RDCONLEY]

I grew up in the area called Big Sandy. The Big Sandy River begins at the junction of the Levisa Fork and Tug Fork at Louisa, Kentucky. The Big Sandy joins the Ohio at Catlettsburg, Kentucky and this junction separates Kentucky, Ohio & West Virginia.

The Adena populated this area before the arrival of the Shawnee. The Shawnee as well as other tribes followed a trail from Shanoah, Kentucky near the mouth of the Scioto River at Portsmouth, Ohio to Prestonsburg, Kentucky located on the Big Sandy River distance of about 100 miles. This trail was known as the Jenny Wiley Trail by the early settlers. This trail continued south to Pine Mountain where the Tug Fork and Levisa Fork begin. At Pine Mountain the trail intersects with the Appalachian Trail near Pound Gap, Va.

The Big Sandy Valley is a major coal mining region. One of the reuirements for federal permits for coal docks, coal storage, coal mines, etc. is a professional archeological study or survey. There are hundreds of permits in this area. There should be some useful data collected through the permiting process.

One of my clients, Dewey Bocook with Bocook Engineering, located at Paintsville, KY near the mouth of Paint Creek which runs into the Big Sandy should have information on sources to contact. E-mail Dewey Bocook dbocook@bocook.com.

Roger

[Tom]

WOW what a huge amount of information!
I feel asthough we are on the verge of something really BIG, with all of our families moving through these areas it's mind blowing to discover these sites.
It is starting to appear asthough when the Great Dispersal happened families knew where other members went to and in some cases many many years later followed.
From what is becoming very well founded our families moved into very old tribal lands.
I think that perhaps when the Europeans landed our kin folks were were living in a very wide spread area, after contact they may have moved back to tribal areas that family already lived on.
THIS is really going to open a huge Pandoras box.

LINDA ALL the best with the research into Totero sites.
This is MEGA!!!

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Rodger,
I emailed Dewey Bocook to see if he would have access to early history of how the minning companies obtained the rights to all this land.
First, I have Collins living and owning lots of property in this area.
Second, I have a very quick tempered GGGGrandfather who took his sons to court accusing them of stealing his land
third, One son, William Collins Sr. ( b. 1806) sold much of this land for penny's an acre smack dab in the middle of some of the riches coal deposits.

I believe that Meredith was correct when he accused his sons but the only one that seemed to profit was William and he got "took".

Would love to be a mouse in that Pike County records department.

[RDCONLEY]

Hi Brenda

I operated a deep mine at Phelps (Pike County) in the early 1980's. My wife is presently employed by a large coal company as land department supervisor and this company has a land field office in the Pike County area. Research opportunities available.

Harry Caudill from Whitesburg wrote a book "Night Comes to Cumberland" which deals with the early years of the mining industry in Eastern Kentucky. Harry also wrote a book about the Jenny Wiley Saga. There are lots of Jenny Wiley tales handed down through various families in the Big Sandy area. My grandfather use to tell the grandkids the Conley version around a fire in the orchard of his farm. The Conleys and Wileys were acquainted in the early settler days of Johnson County.

I have a client, The Jesse Stuart Foundation, which publishes Harry's books. JSF also publishes Allan Eckerts books. I have met Allan and he has a wealth of information about the early history of the Ohio Valley.

The editor for JSF is Dr. James M. Gifford a professor at Morehead State University. Contact JSF for a list of publications at:

www.jsbooks.com

Jesse Stuart Foundation
1645 Winchester Avenue
Ashland, KY 41105
606-326-1667

John CC Mayo, a wealthy coal baron, lived in Paintsville, KY. He was a local school teacher until beginning a career as leasing agent for Consolidation Coal Company. He bought thousands of acres of mineral rights for pennies. Until recent years mineral rights could be severed from fee simple title and mined without compensation to the land owner.

I spoke with Dewey Bocook today and he is sending me contact information for Kentucky agencies dealing with archeology for mining permits. Dewey is also a descendant of Henry Scaggs. Henry came to Big Sandy with the Harmons and rescued Jenny Wiley from the Shawnee at Blockhouse Bottom by rafting her across the Big Sandy to safety.

Roger

[Linda]

Thanks for the great tips. Is your friend expecting our inquiries?

[RDCONLEY]

Hi Linda

I have sent Dewey Bocook an e-mail request to assist anyone on this site concerning Big Sandy Tutelo research. I am also visiting the Jesse Stuart Foundation today and will try to contact Allan Eckert about any research material he may have on the Big Sandy Tutelo.

Roger

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Question:

Allan Eckert : Didn't he write a book that had "Wilderness" in the title? It seems to me there was something in that book about my SPENCER line.

Brenda

[RDCONLEY]

Hi Brenda

Allan Eckert is a noted American Historian, Naturalist & Author. Books include:

Wilderness Empire
The Wilderness War

Check out www.jsfbooks.com

Most of his early books follow the lives of Tecumseh, Blue Jacket and Simon Kenton

He received an Emmy award for the Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom TV Series.

Roger

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Thanks Rodger,
The book I was thinking of was "The Wilderness War". It has information on the half blood Onieda, Thomas Spencer, who fought during the Battle of Orskany in NY. He had a brother Henry Spencer.
If you use the search engine on site you will find my inquiries into this line.

Brenda

[Tom]

Hello All, in the earlier postings , there was a mention of the Tutelo being refered to as the Shatara!
There were several spellings , has anyone else seen this listing?
I was thinking that maybe it refers to a division of some sort or perhaps a descent line, Chiefs name attached to a tribal Band?
Has anyone seen this other than here?

[RDCONLEY]

Shatara was the name of a Chickasaw village.

[Bill Childs]

Roger,
It may vary by State (or not), but isn't it true that when a person buys land, unless otherwise specified, the buyer does not own the mineral rights under that land?
Bill

[RDCONLEY]

Bill

Kentucky amended its broad form deed law in 1988 to deny mineral owners the right to mine without the land owners permission. Under current mining law you must have both surface and mineral rights by lease or ownership to mine coal.

Roger

[RDCONLEY]

Bill

A title search would have to be performed to determine if the mineral rights followed the surface. Not all deeds disclose the fact the mineral had been severed. You are correct in that each state can differ as to mineral severance and ownership rights for mineral extraction.

Roger

[Patty]

It's been about 14 years since I was a licensed Realtor here in Ohio. If I remember correctly, the term "fee simple absolute" means you own it all, land, water, minerals and the air space above it (meaning you have the right to build up and to keep others from building OVER your property).

Out west it's typical for water rights not to transfer with a deed (hard to imagine you could own land and not have the right to drill a well or take water from a stream or river on your land), in KY, it's mineral rights that may not transfer with the deed. I'm sure other places have other valuable resources that have been severed from land ownership over the years.

I remember years ago my grandpa sold the coal rights he had on land in KY when he had the chance because he said if he didn't sell it they'd take it anyway and he'd get nothing.

[Bill Childs]

Thanks, Patty & Roger.

[lynellarainhawk]

You guys are good!

How do you find all of this facsinating stuff?

Linda, Tom is right, this is MEGA!

Yeah, mineral rights do vary. My husband bought the mineral rights with this land when he bought it. Most people up here don't have and according to hubby can't get mineral rights, or maybe not easily?

Man! I hope we ARE ALL COUSINS! Cause' then maybe some of these brains of yours trickled my way! I want to know all the juicy secrets.....How do you do it? I've learned more right here tonight than I ever recall picking up in a classroom. I wish I had input on this subject! Lynella.

[RDCONLEY]

Linda

I obtained all published work performed by UK in the Big Sandy area, nothing reported to suport existence of Tutelo. One of their digs was located at Staffordsville along Paint Creek near Paintsville, Johnson County, Ky. This site was on the layout of a new subdivision. UK found a few animal bones. I knew the developer and was told by him that he had found several artifacts, pipes made from material found around the Great Lakes and identified as Iroquois. It is thought that the Iroquois ran the Tutelo out of the area in 1699. I have not pursued the Tutelo for sometime. I have the name of a local collector, but have not made contact. The Corp conducted a study of the Blaine Creek Drainage before the construction of Yatesville Dam in Lawerence Co., same area. I belive U. Penn or Pitt. conducted the survey. I was introduced to a secretary for the Corp of Engineers, Huntington, WV at a party sometime back but failed to pursue the results of their study.

[BlondeyeLaurie]

Wow ya'all...this is right interesting...I was just this week "digging" for some folks in my tree and located them on census records in , you guessed it: Paintsville! To toss a few names, I started researching Reuben Dale and his wife Tabitha Selvage, whose children were born in Johnson Co, KY: Berry, Frances, Pleasant, Artis, Charity, Henry & Juriah....Berry having MD Chaney "Chana" Cole....their children were also born there (one record I located mentioned a place called "Jenny's Creek")...I located most of these family members in 1850, 1860, 1870 and 1880 in that same location, which by 1860 was called Paint Creek or Paintsville...and by the time 1870 rolled around they were all indexed as "IND" denoting Indian...all living right close together were my family tree surnames of Dale, Cole & Ratliff....when I ran a ancestry.com search for ALL Dale surname families in that area in 1870 I came up with the following listings:
Amanda Dale Paintsville, Johnson, KY abt 1860 Kentucky Indian Female
Arther Dale Paintsville, Johnson, KY abt 1848 Kentucky Indian Male
Charity Dale Paintsville, Johnson, KY abt 1851 Kentucky Indian Female
Cheriah Dale Paintsville, Johnson, KY abt 1858 Kentucky Indian Female
Frances Dale Paintsville, Johnson, KY abt 1837 Kentucky Indian Female
Judith Dale Paintsville, Johnson, KY abt 1854 Kentucky Indian Female
Reuben Dale Paintsville, Johnson, KY abt 1803 Virginia Indian Male
Tabitha Dale Paintsville, Johnson, KY abt 1817 Tennessee Indian Female
William Dale Paintsville, Johnson, KY abt 1861 Kentucky Indian Male
I knew previously that Chaney Cole was of NA descent but I really had no idea that the Dale families were native by blood also, so it was a right nice suprise. I also noted that some of the Dale's MD into the Collins folks I already had indexed and their NA heritage has been long-standing and known by many folks. It is interesting that ya'll mention the Tutelo as being indigenous to that specific area...In speaking recently with Richard (Carlson) he mentioned to me that it is quite likely that some of our purported Cherokee ancestors may well have been Saponi and/or Tutelo and likely intermarried with other native american tribes from the New River area (originating) thus composing a family heritage that is one of numerous "tribes" or clans. I hope to learn much more about these Johnson County kin of mine/ours in the weeks and months to come...by way of a "group question" I ask: were a majority of the Paintsville, Johnson Co, KY populous in 1870 primarilly comprised of ppl indexed as indian?
There is a wealth of information online about the Cole, Collins and allied families available online via Johnson County...I am very grateful for that indeed....to link y'all:
1. a superb Collins Marriage link from rootsweb:
http://www.rootsweb.com/~kyjohnso/collins.htm
2. Johnson County Ky BIRTHS for year 1859 can be located at:
http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/ky/johnson/vitals/births/b1859.txt
*Note: if you move your cursor to the "address bar" and CHANGE the YEAR and click on "GO" you can also locate additional years for Johnson County births...it is "hit or miss" as to which years they accept, but try it...I located MUCH more doing just that!*
3. Johnson Co, KY MAIN index page for info:
http://www.rootsweb.com/~kyjohnso/jcindex.htm
Blessings to all from here to there~~~~Laurie

[Koreana]

I heard from a lady last week with some exciting news. Her people come from the Big Sandy in KY (I believe it's also bordering OH). She has the Blackfoot ID in her family, and I know other people with this ID and location.

The Big Sandy is noted on old maps as the Tuterro (Tutelo) River. There are some other tidbits of evidence confirming that the Tutelo were there.

She knows about a burial that was unconvered when an upscale subdivision was put in. It's always haunted her and some others aware of it. They could get no interest from any of the academics in looking at any of the stuff. It sounds like it's been squirreled away safely by private parties, awaiting some interest someday.

She described some of the elements she saw and it may be this is a Tutelo burial ground, right in the vicinity of what appears to be a cabbage patch full of Blackfoot ID'd descendants. Tnis could be the mother load.

Anyway, I can't recall the particulars to any of this evidence concerning the Tutelo presence on the Big Sandy. I need good, meaty academic citations.

Can anybody help me out here?
I have been trying to find out when our families from SE ky move to Greenup region. I was positive by the surnames surrounding each other that they were part of the same group down south. Chief Cornstalk (Keigh Taugh Quah) and other tribes were around the area:
Cornstalk was a great orator, courageous fighter and a fine military strategist. While fighting with the French during the French and Indian War, he led a 1763 expedition against white settlements in what is now Greenbrier County, West Virginia. Over the next decade, he led the resistance to white encroachment in the Ohio River Valley.

In the early 1770s, as chief of a confederation of the Shawnee, Wyandot, Delaware and Mingo tribes in Ohio, Cornstalk led a large war party against Virginia troops under General Andrew Lewis. On Oct. 10, 1774, in an indecisive day-long battle at present day Point Pleasant, WV, both sides suffered heavy losses. Cornstalk later signed a peace treaty with Virginia Governor Lord Dunmore.
During the American Revolution the British formed an Indian coalition to fight the colonists. Chief Cornstalk alone refused to join. He believed his people’s survival depended on friendly relations with the Virginians. In the spring of 1777, he visited the garrison at Point Pleasant with a small contingent of Indians to inform the colonials of the British plans. While the Virginians waited for reinforcements, they held the Indians hostage. Following the killing of a white man outside the fort by other Indians, Chief Cornstalk and his men were murdered by the soldiers.
Cornstalk was so admired, a 12 foot monument was erected over his grave in 1950 at the Mason County Courthouse.
http://www.thewoodsresort.com/woodsedit/Newspg5.html
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++
The island now known as Midelburg on the Guyandotte River in Logan, WV was a Shawnee capitol and gathering place for several Native American tribes. This, combined with mountainous terrain and inaccessibility, discouraged white settlement of the area. From this protected vantage point the Shawnee Chief Cornstalk planned his strategies.

[Koreana]

You guys are good!

How do you find all of this facsinating stuff?

Linda, Tom is right, this is MEGA!

Yeah, mineral rights do vary. My husband bought the mineral rights with this land when he bought it. Most people up here don't have and according to hubby can't get mineral rights, or maybe not easily?

Man! I hope we ARE ALL COUSINS! Cause' then maybe some of these brains of yours trickled my way! I want to know all the juicy secrets.....How do you do it? I've learned more right here tonight than I ever recall picking up in a classroom. I wish I had input on this subject! Lynella.
The more I read each of your posts, the more I think we are all drawn to this site b/c we all are related one way or the other. I think we're a pretty special group myself. I am biased though!:p

[PappyDick]

Koreana -- is the story of Benjamin Ulin (1760-1834) reported in your local histories? He was a Creek captive from about 12 to 17, then was taken north and ransomed (not to his own relatives), and was raised for a few more years by Isaac Zane and (mainly) his Indian wife, from whom he learned Delaware and Shawnee speech. He had various adventures, one of which gave the name to "Ulin's Leap" near Point Pleasant; and he did some interpreting for a treaty at Marietta (now) OH, it would appear, in 1790. Or maybe a little later.

There is a strange and hard-to-read narrative of his life (in the first person, but actually written by his son in 1853, years after he died -- in Greenup Co. KY). I transcribed it about 15 years ago from the original in the Draper mss. at the Wisconsin Hist. Soc. Ran across it last night, and I had just read something you wrote here about Greenup Co., so I thought it might be of interest. It isn't about Eastern Siouans, though.

I think Benjamin Ulin Jr., or maybe one of his brothers, was at one time the county sheriff, living at Catlettsburg. That part is my dim recollection, and not from the narrative I described.

[RDCONLEY]

I live in Greenup County and would be interested in information concerning Benjamin Ulin. I have seen his name in the 1820 and 1840 Greenup Co. census. There are no Ulins living in Greenup Co. today, however we have a place called Uhlen's Branch.

Some mention of early Greenup Co. in "My Father Daniel Boone" from Draper's interview of Nathan Boone, Daniel's youngest son. Traces Boone family miagration from towns along the Ohio until their move to Missiouri. The Boones were involved in the formation of Greenup Co.

[RDCONLEY]

GREENUP COUNTY. Greenup County, the forty-fifth formed in Kentucky, was established in 1803 from part of Mason County. It lies in the Appalachian region of the state, in the northeast corner, bordered by the Ohio River and by Boyd, Lewis, and Carter counties. GREENUP, the county seat, and the county itself were named for Christopher Greenup (1804-8), Kentucky's fourth governor.

At some time before 1753, French fur traders and Shawnee Indians settled opposite the mouth of the Scioto River. This was believed to be the only white settlement in Kentucky before Fort Harrod, but all traces of the village disappeared before 1800. Indian burial mounds near Siloam and Old Springville are the remains of prehistoric villages where the Adena people lived more than two thousand years before the first white settlers. The Adena, who lived

[PappyDick]

I have no objection to sharing my transcription of the Benjamin Ulen sketch with any of you Greenup County folks who want to email me off-list with your mailing address. I think the Wisconsin Historical Society might object if I posted the whole thing on the forum, as there are various permission hoops to jump through. Also, what I have is a typescript, not a digital file. I did it a long time ago, using a Selectric.

I just noticed that the informant in 1853 spelled the name Ulen rather than Ulin. It is spelled Ulin in a couple of nineteenth century publications, one about Ulin's Leap and one obituary notice of his son John Ulin, who was a Methodist preacher. (It is also spelled Huling, I believe, in the papers of Isaac Craig in Pittsburgh. I don't think Craig was correct, he just knew some Hulings and thought it was the same name.) I don't really know what should be considered "correct," but spelling and grammar were not high priorities with the writer of Benjamin Ulen's memoir. Punctuation was not there at all. (About a thousand words, with no commas, and only two periods -- in the abbreviation of Post Office as P.O.)

[Linda]

when I ran a ancestry.com search for ALL Dale surname families in that area in 1870 I came up with the following listings:
Amanda Dale Paintsville, Johnson, KY abt 1860 Kentucky Indian Female
Arther Dale Paintsville, Johnson, KY abt 1848 Kentucky Indian Male
Charity Dale Paintsville, Johnson, KY abt 1851 Kentucky Indian Female
Cheriah Dale Paintsville, Johnson, KY abt 1858 Kentucky Indian Female
Frances Dale Paintsville, Johnson, KY abt 1837 Kentucky Indian Female


BlondeeyeLaurie, that seems to be most unusual, a census record listing people as Indian. Has Bill seen this? I'd like to know if he's ever seen people categorized this way in Kentucky. Does the census from this time and locale have more people listed as such?

[Linda]

I obtained all published work performed by UK in the Big Sandy area, nothing reported to suport existence of Tutelo.

Who's the UK? I wouldn't expect to find much archeological evidence. After a certain era, the 1600's or so, the Saponi/Tutelo aren't anywhere as a distinct entity, but rather merged in with other groups. We have them merged with the Seneca in warfare in Maryland, 1740. We found some warriors in Tecumseh's camp in the 1800s, we find some allied to the Seneca around the time of the F&I war.

The old map which names the Big Sandy the Tottero is I believe the first map drawn by colonials of the region, I'm going to say the 1650's. Perhaps the only supportive data is the assertion that the old Tutelo trail to the Ohio passed through there. Then it would make sense, that in the days of their full power, this trail would have been held and defended.

[PappyDick]

"Who's the UK?"

The University of Kentucky, in Lexington. They do more than just basketball, kind of like Duke; there is one main product, and then a bunch of incidental, academic stuff going on. Like archaeology. And the John Jacob Niles Center for Appalachian Music. (Named in honor of the Adolph Rupp of dulcimer players.)

[Koreana]

I live in Kenton Co, Ky.

[Koreana]

That's right across from Cincinnati, Ohio.

[BlondeyeLaurie]

Hello there Linda...y'all! *waves* Please forgive me for the delay in replying but I changed servers and had a few "glitches" to settle and tend to...at any rate...I DID scour through all 44 pages of the 1870 Census in Johnson Co, KY and additionally tracked the Dale family that connects to my tree that I made mention of in the aforementioned posting...in so doing, this is what I located:
1850: Dale's listed as no race (denoted)
1860: all listed as MU
1870: Dale & Collins listed as IN (page 5/44)
Dale listed as IN (pg 7)
Cole listed as IN (pg 10)
Collins & Welch listed as IN (pg 15)
Collins listed as IN (pg 16)
Collins listed as IN (pg 36)
1880: Dale & Collins now listed again as MU
1900: all listed as W
1910: all listed as W
1920: some Dale's listed as W , still other listed as IN
1930: listed again as W

Needless to say this is nearly comical and obviously the discretion (or bias) of the census taker...those folks changed "race" as often as we change vehicles in our day. I also wanted to make mention that in the 1900 census in Magoffin Co, KY they have a "special census" listing for those individual's who were listed as Indian..and they also show a percentile approximation of their blood values. (1/2. 1/4. and the like).
Perhaps the most absurd census I have ever personally seen is one for a Gibson family of mine in which , within the HH was the father, mother and 6 children...and the census taker wrote that the mother and father were B...the next 2 children were listed as W, the next 2 as MU and the 2 youngest as B like the parents! I suppose that in that census takers eyes if you were wee you were black..then you became mulatto...hitting white status in your teens then as you aged became black again?!? Anywho...enough rambling for now...best luck and blessings to all...glad to be back in the "Saponitown Loop" . Hugs from here to there~~~~Laurie

[sammarroq]

this might help a little Linda

INDIAN OCCUPATION AND USE IN NORTHERN AND EASTERN KENTUCKY DURING THE CONTACT PERIOD {1540-1795}
AN INITIAL INVESTIGATION

by A.Gwynn Henderson
Cynthia E. Jobe
Christopher A. Turnbow

UNIVERSITY of KENTUCKY

Page 130
A. the locations of historic indian sites in floyd county were described in a letter dated february 6,1929 To William S.Web from William E. Connelley,Secretary of the kansas state Historical Society {osa:129 Folio Floyd county } Excerpts from this letter follow:

Another village of this same character was on the May farm on the EAST SIDE OF THE BIG SANDY RIVER just below the mouth of Abbotts Creek in Floyd county.the may farm was formerly a mile and a half or 2 miles north of Prestonburg .I have been on the village site and talked with many of the first settlers of that country about it. it was probably a TOTERO village and the TOTEROS were SIOUAN,sometimes known as the shataera indians,I am uncertain now as to whether any relics could be found on the old site or not and it might be difficult to Identify the site ,although it was very plain when i saw it a little more than 50 years ago.
The old people said there were other villages of the kind up the big SANDY RIVER and ESPECIALLY on BEAVER CREEK in Floyd county.It was said that there was village of this kind on the Wireman farm down the BIG SANDY RIVER.

I have more ,I will see about getting it posted this week.
George

I missed this post...interesting, thought I'd bring it back.

[ahwikatani]

All of this is very interesting to me and exciting! My family is a Collins descent and we have history in the Johnson and Martin County areas.I have traced a lot of the names back to some of the ones you have Brenda,and when my Grandmother passed away,they buried her in her "ancestral" homeland in Martin County. I have been to and seen the gravesite in Inez,Ky. My grandpa used to always tease her and when the census people would come,she would run and hide-he would say "go and hide, my little blackfoot!". As far as what was discussed,there are several people in the Martin & Johnson County area that speak of Tutelo having been there (not as much speak of Saponi though). But yes this is very interesting to me and I hope to hear more on this.

[Imakegarb]

Hello Everyone!!

Pappy Dick, I really, really, really want to talk to you :-)

My first book, "Haunted Chambers: the Lives of Early Women Freemasons" is due out in a few weeks. One of the chapters in the book was about Catherine Babington, the grand daughter of the Benjamin Ulen (of various spellings).

Shortly before "Haunted Chambers" went to the printer, my publisher let me know he wanted to rerelease the biography of Catherine Babington, which had been written by her son, J.P. Babington, in the early 20th Century. My publisher asked me to write a detailed forward for the rerelease and I accepted.

This effectively gives me a second change to write about more than just her Masonic history. I would love to know more about her mother's family, the Ulens, headed up by Benjamin.

I'd also love to know more (than just his name) about her father, Charles Sweet, who died when she was quite young but I don't know how. I know only that Catherine, her mother and younger brother moved into with the Ulen clan after Charles Sweet died.

I did come across something today that, though this thread is quite old, might be of interest. It seems the Rockland County Messenger of Warren Village, Haverstraw, NY, published on Thursday, Nov. 22, 1860, a version of how "Ullin's Leap" got its name. That front page article can be downloaded from here:
http://www.localarchives.org/WorkArea/downloadasset.aspx?id=90805

The retelling starts in the second column from the left, top of the page.

I'm very glad to be here :)

[PappyDick]

Pappy Dick, I really, really, really want to talk to you :-)

Well, I am still here, on occasion.

I have that Benjamin Ulen stuff somewhere, may have to excavate a bit to find it. I was pretty well convinced long ago that he's not actually a relative of mine -- but I hardly ever throw anything away, once I've worked on it. So he's around here someplace.

I think I sent you a "personal message," but there has been a recent upgrade to the software for this site and that's one of the things that doesn't look the same as it used to. If you are able to reply to it, we can swap email addresses there, without sharing them with the broader world.

Benjamin Ulen (Sr.) was for some time adopted by Indian people, but they weren't Saponi (or Eastern Siouan) so there's not much point in posting that whole story here. (Although if I hadn't previously mentioned him here, you'd never have found my records about him.) Also, the actual document telling his story belongs to the Wisconsin Historical Society, and isn't in the public domain -- I couldn't post it without permission.

I don't know anything about Charles Sweet, or other descendants not named Ulen (Ulin, Hulin, etc.).

I've downloaded that newspaper page, haven't read it yet -- the type is tiny. Will try to see if it tells more than I have on file. Chances are, it does. Haverstraw is an odd place for it to turn up. But there was a big camp-meeting ground there, and some of his descendants were in the Methodist evangelism line of work -- maybe they were preaching there or something. (I guess if I read it I'll find out, duh.)

Pappy

[Linda]

Pappy, have you ever seen Ulm as a variant of Ulen? I have some in Berkshire, WV ca. 1710. There's a million variants, Ulem, Woolem, Ulm, etc.

[PappyDick]

I haven't seen it as a variant; maybe have seen it, though. As far as I know, Ulm is a town on the Danube River -- I think, in the Czech Republic, but I doubt if I have a map modern enough to show that. There's also some ancient Indian historical account, or transcribed legend, called the Walam Ulem -- or something pretty close to that. My memory of it is very sketchy. It was maybe published in the 1830s by someone whose scholarly credentials were highly suspect? I guess I could clear away the fog by checking Google or Wikipedia...

Oh, yeah. Rafinesque. Here it is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walam_Olum

Pappy

[Linda]

The family story was that the Ulms were German. They were certainly part of a German settlement in Lancaster County, PA ca. 1740. They then moved into Berkeley, WV.

[techteach]

Linda,

You do know that my Greens and Butts are from Berkeley, WV? I went there last summer on vacation. You can see some of the pix here: http://dennis-william-butt.com/Additional%20Photo's.htm#Additional%20Photo's,%20N ewspaper%20Articles,%20Maps,%20etc.

I also went through central PA where the Sinkeys (and I believe Hustons) were from. Some of those pix are there too. It was near Huntingdon, PA.

Techteach

[Imakegarb]

Hi Everyone!!

Ooooooh, but it's good to be back. I couldn't log in yesterday :eek:

PoppyDick, if you open that link in Adobe reader, if you look near the top, you should see a place where you can change the percentage of the image. When it comes to newspapers like this, I usually put that sitting to about $150 percent. Otherwise . . . yeah, it's a little hard on my old eyes.

I replied to your PM :)

[PappyDick]

I replied to your PM :)

I can't find it, and haven't received any notice of it yet... What I see in the User area is, the last personal message to me was in 2007. Dunno if my Inbox is full, or what.

Linda, Ulm is in actually in southern Germany. I used to have a pen pal there, in the early 1950s (gasp), and he was Czech. But the city isn't.

Pappy

[Linda]

Yes, I thought I remembered some story about the family bearing the name of the town, though I couldn't find it in my cousin's genealogy tome the other day.

Tech Teach, I have a John Ulm, who was born in Berkeley, WV 1788. While in Chillicothe, OH, he married an Elizabeth Smith, who was born in VA. They had four kids while in Sullivan, Indiana, (near the Blackfoot Church) till 1828, then moved to Wabash, IL. Two of their daughters, Eleanor and Elizabeth, married two brothers, William and Thomas Harris. Those four all died in Viroqua, WI. They got there around 1856.

Thomas and Eleanor were my Francis Marion Harris's parents (he's pictured in my Other Blackfoot article) So he was a Smith. Perhaps the Smith side accounts for his appearance. And he married a Hudson, whose family goes back to MD, near the Blackfoot Town.

German men appreciated Indian wives. It's that strong ethic valuing hard-working helpmates, which they certainly were. Kind of odd sex appeal, but it seemed to work for them. Not a single story of anybody every straying . . .

There's a new member coming onboard who's a Sinkey. I told her to look for you. Her family ended up in Camanche, Iowa.

[techteach]

Camanche is a stone's throw from where my Sinkey's were. Has to be a cousin.
And we do have Smith in our line. I had an uncle with the surname Smith. One of my cousins, his kids, is really NA in appearance, but then her mother, my mother's sister, is too. (Many of the ladies I meet out west look like my grandmother.)

Techteach

[Linda]

Do you know anything about where those Smiths were from?

Also, could you re-post a link to that DNA service you used that gave the percentage breakdown of ethnic roots? Aunt Betty is ill, she still talks with regret about the MtDNA test we did that revealed nothing. Maybe we can try this test and cheer her up.

[techteach]

70. NANCY7 HUSTON (ELIZABETH6 GREEN, REGINAL (REGNAL) GREEN5 SR., WILLIAM4 GREEN I, ROBERT3 GREENE, THOMAS2, THOMAS1) was born November 22, 1817 in Licking Co, Ohio, and died November 20, 1890 in Jackson Co, Iowa. She married MATTHEW SINKEY Abt. 1834 in Licking Co, Ohio, son of WILLIAM SINKEY and MARY MCCARTNEY. He was born September 25, 1805 in Huntingdon Co, Pennsylvania, and died February 03, 1894 in Jackson Co, Iowa.

More About NANCY HUSTON:
Burial: Hickory Grove Cemetery, Maquoketa, Jackson Co, Iowa

More About MATTHEW SINKEY:
Burial: Hickory Grove Cemetery, Maquoketa, Jackson Co, Iowa

Children of NANCY HUSTON and MATTHEW SINKEY are:
155. i. ELIZABETH8 SINKEY, b. February 08, 1833, Hartford Twp, Ohio; d. January 07, 1912, EmelineJackson Co, Iowa.
156. ii. MARY SINKEY, b. September 20, 1836, Tower, Deleware Co, Ohio; d. September 26, 1907, Jackson Co, Iowa.
157. iii. ELIZABETH LOUISE "ELIZA" SINKEY, b. August 21, 1842, Licking Co, Ohio; d. March 16, 1909, Maquoketa, Jackson Co, Iowa--age 66 years, 6 months, & 25 days.
iv. ANDREW JACKSON SINKEY, b. 1843, Licking Co, Ohio; d. January 23, Anamosa, Iowa; m. MARY JO HEATH, July 04, 1865, Jackson Co, Iowa.
v. JOHN SINKEY, b. Abt. 1846, Licking Co, Ohio; d. February 11, 1863, Memphis, Tennessee--Civil War.
vi. WILLIAM SINKEY, b. Abt. 1847, Licking Co, Ohio; d. 1896, Iowa; m. ANGELINE SMITH.
vii. DANIEL BOONE SINKEY, b. February 12, 1848, Emeline, Jackson Co, Iowa; d. December 19, 1915, Ozark, Jackson Co, Iowa; m. SARAH JANE HEATH.
158. viii. ELDAD C. SINKEY, b. July 11, 1850, Canton, Jones Co, Iowa; d. November 04, 1914, Monmouth, Jackson Co, Iowa.
ix. ALBERT SINKEY, b. Abt. 1853, Jackson Co, Iowa; d. December 17, 1909, Independence, Jackson Co, Iowa.
x. LOUISE SINKEY, b. 1858, Jackson Co, Iowa; m. ? WRAY.
xi. CANDACE SINKEY, b. 1859, Jackson Co, Iowa; m. JAMES C. RAY.
xii. MILAN SINKEY, b. 1861, Maquoketa, Jackson Co, Iowa; d. Clinton, Clinton Co, Iowa; m. SUSIE.

While this is just one Smith, there are more on this list: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ohlcgs2/lostpioneer.htm Some of these lost pioneers are not lost. My ancestor is William Sinkey. I told them that he is in Hickory Grove Cemetery in Emeline, IA but they did not change this.

And I used www.genetree.com.

Techteach

[Imakegarb]

I am so glad the gods of the Internet were kind and let me back in tonight. I wanted to publicly thank Pappy Dick as he made a real effort to get with me when I couldn't get logged back in here (I still don't know what happened; must be something on my end).

I now have the scanned document and it has provided enough new information to prompt me to rethink a few theories of mine.

Thank you Pappy Dick for all your effort and thank you to all on this forum :)