Ohio Valley Siouan

[George]

I have read several posts where some of you kinda touch on the subject that we{ SIOUAN PEOPLE } came from Ohio,theres no doubt in my mind that we did come from the Ohio river valley.
I will deal with Language first ,IF you look at the language tree that the experts put together you will see that the the CATAWBAN
Branch consisits of 2 nations the CATAWBA and the WOCCON.
Now if you stay on the same side of the tree and go to the next branch up you will see what the experts call the OHIO VALLEY which consists of 3 nations TUTELO, BILOXI and the OFO or the MOSOPELEA.

I have more that i will post some other time in regards to the OHIO VALLEY SIOUAN.
But now I would like to give you a little oral history from one of my Elders who comes from way up north.
a couple of years ago my Elder was in my neck of the woods and he got to talking to me one day and asked me who my people are,and I told him most of my Ancestors are recognized as SAPONI today, when I said the word Saponi it was like a light went on.
He started telling me in the pre-contact days his ancestors would travel from way up north by canoe to SOUTHERN OHIO to take part in our ceremonies and to trade copper and other valuables for our vegetables and our Tobacco and to share there ceremonies with us. he said also that his ancestors also would trade the Iroquois for there Tobacco and vegetables.
George

[Linda]

Thanks for posting this, George. What nation is this Elder from?

[George]

OJIBWAY

[George]

Here is some more information on our siouan ancestors in the Ohio River Valley,I will deal with 6 maps that i have in this post .
1 royce map ,2 maps that are from 1755, 1 map that is from 1703,
1 map from 1684,and one map from John Reed Swantons book Indian Tribes of North America.

the first map that i will talk about comes from the Federal Govt,the {Indian Land Claims Commission } the commission was run by a Lady, her name is Erminie Wheeler Voegelin,she was the founder of the american society for ethnohistory,she was also a professor of anthropology and history,anyway the maps involved in this commission are known as Royce maps,I f you look at the Royce map that contains area 87 which is northern ohio,you find a village site listed {as SAPONI } that is dated around 1761-1762 this village site is located on PICKERL CREEK maybe that will help you out.

on one of my 1755 maps it labels the Big Sandy river as the TOTTEROY RIVER now on this same map if you come due west to the next river it labels this river as the LITTLE TOTTEROY,most you I believe know Totteroy =TUTELO.

the 2nd 1755 map that I have labels the Kentucky river as the CATAWBA RIVER.

the next map that I have is a 1703 map which labels the OHIO RIVER as the ACANSEA RIVER , Acansea is an Algonquian word it comes from the Illinois tribe. the Acansea are Siouan people they are part of the Dhegiha siouan,dhegiha is the Dialect they speak.
today the Acansea are known as The Quapaw,today they are out west and they are status people {Federally Recognized},in there oral history they tell of there migration out of the Ohio River Valley ,another point of interest there CLAN system, is Paternal system.the Siouan Nations that speak the DHEGIHA DIALECT that I could find information on ,all have a Paternal Clan sturcture some of these nations have as few as 16 clans and as many as 24.

The 1684 map I have lists 8 village sites in south western Ohio and they are Clearly marked MOSOEPLEA,as I stated in an earlier post the Mosoeplea people are also the OFO people and the Language Experts Define the OFO, TUTELO, BILOXI as OHIO valley Dialects.

the last map I will talk a little about is John R, Swantons map if you look at that map, it Clearly shows the Mosoeplea covering a huge portion of Ohio , Indiana ,Kentucky.

this is a lot of info for one post so i will stop here,I have alot more dealing with the wabash river valley in Indiana and part of our home land which doesn`t get much notice at all which is Kentucky.
maybe i will post more some other time.

George

[Linda]

Please do. This is great information. If there's any way to get any of those maps scanned and online here, I'd love it. If you want to send a scanned image to me, I'll compress and resize and whatever so it works online.

Thanks for sharing this.

[vance hawkins]

hi George

i have ancestors on the southern end of the Wabash river but they arrived there about 1800 from i think SW Va, at least from Va & E Tn.

i'd love to hear more about this, too

thank you for posting

vance

[tasheaka]

Greetings George,
I would be very interested in sharing some information that I have regarding the Ohio Saponi people. I was born in the community of Blackfork which was and still is one of the old souian community's. My mother's people are still living there.
I attended the dedication of the Saponi/Tutelo park in Ithaca, New York last year and spoke with some of the elders there who knew of the areas where our people lived and speak of the reservations that were in Ohio prior to Ohio becoming a state in 1803. You may feel free to email me anytime.

May you receive many blessings,

Margaret Jones

[Linda]

Good to see you, Margaret. Long time no see. Could you email me? I don't think I have a good address for you anymore.

Linda
sissipaha@saponitown.com

[lesia varney]

George thank you for your posts on the Ohio Valley tribes. I am trying to locate my ancestors. We are from Wva. and Kentucky. We live in ohio now, and are having trouble finding any info. Our great great grandmother on our mothers side name was saphronie. Later one of her daughters married a Daniel Green our
great grandfather (materinal). Our fathers family was Ward's and
Varney's. Any help would be appreciated. As far as we have found so far saphronie's were Saponi, but we would like to find out more. Would love any info you have or could find.

Thank you
Lesia Varney

[Bill Childs]

Lesia,
If you have some general information as to area and time frame for your people, I'll see what I can find for you if you would like.
Bill

[lesia varney]

Bill,
Thank you very much, I would greatly appreciate any help I could get. My grandmother (maternal) was 82 at her death 2 years ago. I have very little information about her mother. I do know she grow up in Oceanna WVA. My great, great grandparents info is little to say the best. My great, great grandfather was an Irishman, he migrated to as best we can find to Virginia, married an Indian maden and they traveled to WVA. There they had several children. My grandmothers mother married a man named Daniel Green. My great great grandmothers name was saphronie.
The family was so scattered and my grandmother was bedfast and sickly, so getting information from her was difficult. The best time frame we have is somewhere in the mid to late 1800's.
I could use help just finding a starting point.
Many blessing for you, and again thank you,
lesia

[tasheaka]

Hi Lesia,
I just wanted to add that your receiving some accurate information from George (Hi George) and you may also want to contact Rick Haithcock, on Ohio Saponi, we are very well documented in this state, there are several resource books that are published to use as a resource in helping you find some family members. Just thought I'd share that with you . Feel free to contact me, I, like George, have far too much to try to include on this reply. I have pictures I would like to share with everyone, however, I don't have a way to put them on here. (a little computer illiterate)


Many Blessings,
tasheaka

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

lesia

I have a Collins cousin that was born in Oceanna,West Virginia. I have communicated with him several years and altho I am not completely in agreement with his belief that the Collins line descends from gypsies they still might have been a Gypsy/Indian mixture. Boy , what a combination!

Brenda

[George]

Hello Lesia

I know the the surname of WARD as a aboriginal surname ,I know it as a CHEROKEE surname.

I know the surname of GREEN also as a aboriginal surname,I know it as a SIOUAN surname,it is one of the many surnames recognizied by the SAPONI NATION OF OHIO.

Looking at the information you have posted ,I would recommend that you start trying to locate some basic{specific} information on your people the federal census ,birth certificates these might not exist,but there might be death certificates? most of these documents will list other family members?
Its a huge help if you can place your people in a STATE in a COUNTY at some given point in time.

George

[Bill Childs]

LESIA, (and a question for BRENDA)
Was your Grt-Grandmother's (who marr'd Daniel Green) first name Frances, Jane (Rebecca Jane?), Damanas/Demarine, Cora, Iona or Lovelet ??
These are all daughters of Saphronia COOK, b.abt. 1830 Va (W.Va.) as were her parents. She is the only Saphronia (formal name for the endearment name "Saphronie") living in West Virginia in 1880. Coincidently, she lived in Oceana, Wyoming County, W.Va.
Please let me know what your Grt-Grandmother's first and/or last name was. I'll take a look for Daniel Green and see what his wife's name is, in the meantime.
============
BRENDA,
This Cook family's close relative Thomas M. Cook, b.abt.1816 Va, (wife Rebecca b.abt.1819 NC) had a William Collins, b.abt. 1825 in Ohio, "visiting" them. Wm Collins marr'd Annie, b.abt.1828 Va. and one dau Mary J., b.abt.1855 was born in Indiana. Does this match any of your Collins?
============
If the bestowed names of this Cook family group are any indicator, they are related to the following families :
STEWART, BAILEY, COLLINS, PERRY, BLANKENSHIP, BLACKBURN, GREEN, BROWN, BROWNING, ROBERTSON, BALLARD, THOMPSON.
Some indication that they may also be related to CHAMBERS.
Saphronia Cook's husband is Isaac Cook, b.abt. 1820, father b.Va., mother b.NC.
Most of these surnames have some Native relationship.
Bill

[lesia varney]

Hello all,

Tasheaka, George, and Bill;

Thank you all for your help. I have begun calling older family members to try to get more names. I will post them as I get them.
I talked with one grt. aunt who does remember the name of Cook being spoken of in our family when she was a child she is now 75.
My grandmother was mary ethel green. she married julis cameron johnston. This is on the maternal side of my family. Still researching more names. Tasheaka, I live in a little town called Vinton, Ohio. about 30 minutes north of Point Pleasant, WVa.
Would love to met you and I will get my father to get the paw paws for us.

Once again thanks to all for your help. Very excited with the info i got today and will work hard to find out more and post it.

Many blessing to all

Lesia:)

[tasheaka]

Hi Lesia,
I know right where Vinton is, I will be in Bidwell this weekend visiting with my grandaughter, Keyawna White. She is a whole 7 years old on Sunday. I'm from Blackfork.

Many Blessings,

Tasheaka

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

This Cook family's close relative Thomas M. Cook, b.abt.1816 Va, (wife Rebecca b.abt.1819 NC) had a William Collins, b.abt. 1825 in Ohio, "visiting" them. Wm Collins marr'd Annie, b.abt.1828 Va. and one dau Mary J., b.abt.1855 was born in Indiana. Does this match any of your Collins?
============
If the bestowed names of this Cook family group are any indicator, they are related to the following families :
STEWART, BAILEY, COLLINS, PERRY, BLANKENSHIP, BLACKBURN, GREEN, BROWN, BROWNING, ROBERTSON, BALLARD, THOMPSON.
Some indication that they may also be related to CHAMBERS.
Saphronia Cook's husband is Isaac Cook, b.abt. 1820, father b.Va., mother b.NC.
Most of these surnames have some Native relationship.

Bill, Of the above names you mentioned I have BAILEY, COLLINS, PERRY, BLANKENSHIP, COOK, and a Collins cousin married into the Blackburn family.

My gr gr gr grandfather was James Spencer b. 1784 on Greenbrier River. I have his War of 1812 pension application listing him as "Indian: 5'8" tall w/ dark complection, black hair and eyes". No tribe is listed but family history says his father was a Thomas Spencer, from the Onieda Tribe of NY. James married twice fathering 20 children. His second wife was a Mary COOK who I have never in 30 years been able to locate parents for. My feelings is that when his first wife died leaving him with 11 small children he went searching for somebody to fill her shoes. Mary was last seen with James in Nicholas Co. WV census records 1850 and after that she just disappears. Nobody in the family knowes what happened to her.Mary was born 1812 and by my calculations she was about 17 years old when they married.

My Perry line starts in Sussex Co. NJ, goes to Northlumberland Co. Pa, to Columbia Co. Oh, to Washington Co. Oh, to Vinton Co. Oh, and to Jackson Co. WV. I sent Linda pictures of my mother and grandmother on that side and you can see the Indian came in from somewhere. The only connecting surname I am at a brickwall with is PATTERSON, Samuel who was from Virginia and had a daughter ,Abigail, who married John Perry.

Brenda

[Bill Childs]

Brenda,
I have a few surnames in common with yours:
BLANKENSHIP (S.Va>NC>Ky>Ind),
CHAMBERS (Va>NC>Ind) (b.Ky, I grew up on this farm in Ind.),
COLLINS (Va>Ky)(the Gatewood/Sparks//Collins/Lewis line twice)
PERRY (altho I can't find 'em),
SPENCER (with MEEK) (Va>Ky>Ind) (Legally changed their name in 1832 Ind to Childs - their Grandmother's maiden name),
COOK (a dau of Harman Cook, 1750s Penn>S.Va.>Ky as RAZOR),
GREEN (Franklin & Henry Co., Ky).
............
When did Samuel Patterson live? I seem to have a couple of these in my files.
Bill

[Bill Childs]

Lesia,
Julius C. Johnston, d. 1993 in Vinton, Gallia Co., Oh, 45684 ??
......................
1930 Mercer Co., WVa Census, ED 15 Princeton (city of), East River Dist., p.12 B, 12 April: Resides at 1203 South Ave.,
at 266, 272:
Emma J. Johnston, Head, f, w, 37, m'd @ 22, Wva, Wva, Va.
Billie S., son, 16, Wva, Wva, Wva.
JULIUS C.., son, 14, Wva, Wva, Wva.
.......................
Emma is married (m'd at 22 year old), not widowed or divorced, but there's no adult male in the household - no idea. Haven't found them in 1920.
Do you know about when Mary Ethel Green was born?
I've found a couple of them.
Bill

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

When did Samuel Patterson live? I seem to have a couple of these in my files.
Bill
>>>>>>>

Samuel Patterson supposely was from Virginia. He had a daughter Abigail Patterson born August 29, 1801 in Virginia and married John Perry 1818 in Pa. Thus far I have not been able to locate this Samuel Patterson. As I said in an earlier posting I don't think the Perry line is NA but think it comes through the Patterson line. connecting surnames Fisher,Allman, Lyons, Mace,Marks, Weatherholt, Cottrill, and Day. I have ask Linda to post pictures of Samuel Patterson Perry, Mollie & Charlotte Perry and my mother.

. THOMAS1 PERRY was born 1754 in Sussex Co. NJ, and died 1842 in Washington Co. Ohio. He married CATHERINE FISHER 1782 in Pa, daughter of JOHN FISHER and ELIZABETH. She was born 1757 in White Deer,Northumberland Co. PA., and died 1842 in Wesley Twp,Washington Co. Ohio.

Notes for THOMAS PERRY:
Thomas Perry was a RevWar soldier and is buried in WashingtonCo. Ohio.
Thomas and Catherine Fisher Perry moved to Ohio in early 1800's first to Columbia Co. , then to Washington Co.

Children of THOMAS PERRY and CATHERINE FISHER are:
2. i. JOHN2 PERRY, b. October 06, 1789 , Northumberland Co., PA as per the 1790 census; d. May 08, 1837, Washington Co. Ohio.
ii. JAMES PERRY, b. October 06, 1791, Pa; d. May 01, 1857, Washington County,Ohio; m. ELIZABETH ANDERSON, March 12, 1820, Colombia Ohio.
iii. ELIZABETH PERRY, b. 1794, Pa; d. 1872; m. JAMES HUNTER, September 14, 1819, Columbia ,Ohio.
iv. MARGARET PERRY, b. 1796, Pa; d. 1866, Washington Co. Ohio; m. WILLIAM HUSTON, January 22, 1817, Columbia Co. Ohio.
v. NANCY PERRY, b. Abt. 1797, Lycoming ,Pa; d. 1893, Washington Co. Ohio; m. JOSEPH PERRY, July 21, 1822, Columbia Co. Ohio.
vi. MARY "POLLY" PERRY, b. 1799, Lycoming,Pa; d. 1881, Washington County,Ohio; m. (1) JAMES HARKINS, March 27, 1821, Columbia,Ohio; m. (2) WILLIAMS CORNS, March 16, 1826, Washington County,Ohio.
vii. SARAH PERRY, b. 1800.
viii. REBECCA PERRY, b. 1806, Lycomming,Pa; d. 1888, Washington Co. Ohio; m. GEORGE HILDERBRAND, 1834, Washington Co. Ohio.
ix. THOMAS PERRY, b. 1808, Lycoming ,Pa; d. 1893, Wells, Indiana; m. MATILDA PERRY, June 05, 1834.
x. SUSANNAH PERRY, b. 1811; d. 1884, Washington Co. Ohio; m. WILLIAM HICKMAN, June 03, 1841, Washington Co. Ohio.


Generation No. 2

2. JOHN2 PERRY (THOMAS1) was born October 06, 1789 in Northumberland Co., PA as per the 1790 census, and died May 08, 1837 in Washington Co. Ohio. He married ABIGAIL PATTERSON 1818 in PA., daughter of SAMUEL PATTERSON. She was born August 29, 1801 in VA, and died September 08, 1875 in Fairfield twp,Washington Co. Ohio.

Children of JOHN PERRY and ABIGAIL PATTERSON are:
i. CHARLOTTE MAE3 PERRY, b. 1819; d. Washington Co. Ohio; m. JOSEPH HARRIS, December 20, 1841.
ii. THOMAS PERRY, b. 1820, Columbia Co. Ohio; d. May 06, 1861, Washington Co. Ohio; m. MARIE CRENSHAW, November 01, 1849, Washington Co. Ohio.
3. iii. SAMUEL PATTERSON PERRY, b. May 15, 1822, Ohio; d. May 23, 1902, Sandyville,Jackson Co. WVa.
iv. JAMES PERRY, b. 1824, Oh; d. January 21, 1908, Washington D.C..
v. CATHERINE PERRY, b. 1827, Oh; d. Aberdeen, Lewis Co. WV; m. HENRY L. CURTIS, 1845.
vi. MARY PERRY, b. 1827.
vii. NANCY REBECCA PERRY, b. 1834, Washington Co. Ohio; d. January 28, 1908, Washington Co. Ohio; m. JOHN LAKE, 1854, Washington Co. Ohio.

[lesia varney]

Hello to all,
Thanks Brenda, George and Bill, for all you help. I am still trying to track down better information. To date here is what I have.
My maternal g-g grandfather Daniel Green may have been a cook
some of the elders of my family said they had heard that he was adopted as a child. However, I have found no concrete evidence to support that. The only thing I have found on my maternal g-g
grandmother(married to Daniel Green) is that she married him very young. I don't even have a first name. Somehow they tell me the name of (last name) Jewel fits in there. I also found my grandmother was one of 4 girls and 6 boys, they think. She was born 1919 and named Mary Ethel Green. I found one great great uncle in wva. (Charles Green). Unfortunately he has altizmers and
could not be of much help to me. On maternal side my grandfaters family were the Johnstons. His name was Julis C. Johnston. His moter was Birdie Jenks Johnston. However the native american comes in I am told on my grandmothers side of the family. My grandmothers moter was said to be by the older family members 1/2 indian. My great great grandmother was only know by saphronie, that is all I have been able to find. She lived in wyoming county, oceanna wva. I will continue my search.

Thanks for all your help and any futher help will be greatly appreciated.

P.S. Brenda next time your down let me know in advance and we will try to met! :)

[Toanorose]

Hi, George and all others, who will read this post,:)

just became a member of the Saponitown Forum this last week-end. The posts are very interesting and I would like to thank George for relating what his elder had told him about the Siouans from up North.

My Dad's family is from Amherst County and Siouan according to his mother's information. Does anybody know of a Siouan community, fellowship or tribal association in the VA area? I am still looking for more information on my paternal family members. Names are Huff, Taylor, Jennings, Carter, Kidd and Berkley.

Anything relating to the Siouans in VA is welcome.

Have a blessed week,
Rose

[Linda]

You'll meet some of the Siouan descendants in our little group at the New Kent festival. Have you talked to any of the Monacans? They're Siouan, and from Amherst.

[sammarroq]

Here is some more information on our siouan ancestors in the Ohio River Valley,I will deal with 6 maps that i have in this post .
1 royce map ,2 maps that are from 1755, 1 map that is from 1703,
1 map from 1684,and one map from John Reed Swantons book Indian Tribes of North America.

the first map that i will talk about comes from the Federal Govt,the {Indian Land Claims Commission } the commission was run by a Lady, her name is Erminie Wheeler Voegelin,she was the founder of the american society for ethnohistory,she was also a professor of anthropology and history,anyway the maps involved in this commission are known as Royce maps,I f you look at the Royce map that contains area 87 which is northern ohio,you find a village site listed {as SAPONI } that is dated around 1761-1762 this village site is located on PICKERL CREEK maybe that will help you out.

on one of my 1755 maps it labels the Big Sandy river as the TOTTEROY RIVER now on this same map if you come due west to the next river it labels this river as the LITTLE TOTTEROY,most you I believe know Totteroy =TUTELO.

the 2nd 1755 map that I have labels the Kentucky river as the CATAWBA RIVER.

the next map that I have is a 1703 map which labels the OHIO RIVER as the ACANSEA RIVER , Acansea is an Algonquian word it comes from the Illinois tribe. the Acansea are Siouan people they are part of the Dhegiha siouan,dhegiha is the Dialect they speak.
today the Acansea are known as The Quapaw,today they are out west and they are status people {Federally Recognized},in there oral history they tell of there migration out of the Ohio River Valley ,another point of interest there CLAN system, is Paternal system.the Siouan Nations that speak the DHEGIHA DIALECT that I could find information on ,all have a Paternal Clan sturcture some of these nations have as few as 16 clans and as many as 24.

The 1684 map I have lists 8 village sites in south western Ohio and they are Clearly marked MOSOEPLEA,as I stated in an earlier post the Mosoeplea people are also the OFO people and the Language Experts Define the OFO, TUTELO, BILOXI as OHIO valley Dialects.

the last map I will talk a little about is John R, Swantons map if you look at that map, it Clearly shows the Mosoeplea covering a huge portion of Ohio , Indiana ,Kentucky.

this is a lot of info for one post so i will stop here,I have alot more dealing with the wabash river valley in Indiana and part of our home land which doesn`t get much notice at all which is Kentucky.
maybe i will post more some other time.

George

This is really interesting information...I would like to see those maps!

[Linda]

One of them is posted on here somewhere, the one that shows the Big Sandy as the Totteroy River. It would be great to get them all linked permanently. We need to Wiki up this place. We? Well, somebody needs to. . . Someday some nice grad student will make a dissertation of it.

[Kamama]

Here is some more information on our siouan ancestors in the Ohio River Valley,I will deal with 6 maps that i have in this post .
1 royce map ,2 maps that are from 1755, 1 map that is from 1703,
1 map from 1684,and one map from John Reed Swantons book Indian Tribes of North America.

the first map that i will talk about comes from the Federal Govt,the {Indian Land Claims Commission } the commission was run by a Lady, her name is Erminie Wheeler Voegelin,she was the founder of the american society for ethnohistory,she was also a professor of anthropology and history,anyway the maps involved in this commission are known as Royce maps,I f you look at the Royce map that contains area 87 which is northern ohio,you find a village site listed {as SAPONI } that is dated around 1761-1762 this village site is located on PICKERL CREEK maybe that will help you out.

on one of my 1755 maps it labels the Big Sandy river as the TOTTEROY RIVER now on this same map if you come due west to the next river it labels this river as the LITTLE TOTTEROY,most you I believe know Totteroy =TUTELO.

the 2nd 1755 map that I have labels the Kentucky river as the CATAWBA RIVER.

the next map that I have is a 1703 map which labels the OHIO RIVER as the ACANSEA RIVER , Acansea is an Algonquian word it comes from the Illinois tribe. the Acansea are Siouan people they are part of the Dhegiha siouan,dhegiha is the Dialect they speak.
today the Acansea are known as The Quapaw,today they are out west and they are status people {Federally Recognized},in there oral history they tell of there migration out of the Ohio River Valley ,another point of interest there CLAN system, is Paternal system.the Siouan Nations that speak the DHEGIHA DIALECT that I could find information on ,all have a Paternal Clan sturcture some of these nations have as few as 16 clans and as many as 24.

The 1684 map I have lists 8 village sites in south western Ohio and they are Clearly marked MOSOEPLEA,as I stated in an earlier post the Mosoeplea people are also the OFO people and the Language Experts Define the OFO, TUTELO, BILOXI as OHIO valley Dialects.

the last map I will talk a little about is John R, Swantons map if you look at that map, it Clearly shows the Mosoeplea covering a huge portion of Ohio , Indiana ,Kentucky.

this is a lot of info for one post so i will stop here,I have alot more dealing with the wabash river valley in Indiana and part of our home land which doesn`t get much notice at all which is Kentucky.
maybe i will post more some other time.

George

I would really like to see those maps. Does anyone know where on Saponi that those maps are? Please let me know. Thanks. :)