Eastern Blackfoot Descendant's Association

[Linda]

I'm thinking of starting a group by that name. There are enough of us, we could do with more of a sense of community, and there are enough of us to undertake some wortwhile projects. What do you all think?

[vance hawkins]

Linda I think it is a great idea.

I'd object to usin' the term "tribe" or "nation", but "Association" is perfect. I'm burned out of all these groups callin' themselves the "Cherokee Nation of one state or another", unless they have achieved State recognition or are at laest legitimately seekin it -- too much backbiting and infighting.

I have a copy of the bylaws of the Cherokee Heritage Cultural Society of Houston, Tx -- somewhere. They are one of the few groups containing enrolled and unenrolled Cherokees that Principle Chief Chad Smith of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma will visit.

vance

[vance hawkins]

Here's their website --

http://www.powersource.com/cherokee/

Their bylaws are on their webpage. I presume you are wantin' to try somethin' like what they are doing. You don't have to be "Cherokee" or prove you are Cherokee to join them.

vance

[Linda]

Good stuff. Yes, it would be kind of absurd for us to be asking anybody for proof that they are something the world does not officially consider to exist. haha.

We would probably need to have our annual meeting in cyberspace. Although, it would be nice to plan get togethers now and then to the extent possible. That's as far as I've gotten down the by-laws. More later.

[techteach]

Linda:

I would be interested in such an organization. It would (I am struggling to find the word here.) validate ?? my grandmothers who were mistreated for their heritage.
I wonder if you ought to copy this posting in other places on this forum. Maybe folks haven't seen it who have been visiting other threads more regularly. Think so?

Cindy

[Linda]

If we keep talking about it, the thread will stay on top and more people will notice. Let's kick it around here a little and get some ideas of what our mission would be, then we can do a mailing to everybody on the forum, and everybody I've heard from privately who might be interested.

You just provided one bullet to the mission -- providing validation to all the families with that heritage. I'd like another to be that whatever kind of fundraising we do, we do scholarships to help teach our young people cultural elements. However undocumented or unproven things may still stand, I think we can be confident that our heritage comes out of the VA/NC area, and there are songs, dances, etc. that have been kept alive at Six Nations that derive from here. I'd like to be able to seek out some kind of exchange with them that would enable some of our young people to spend some time there learning some of these things.

[techteach]

Some of the old folks like myself would like the cultural information too. Since my family has systematically hidden their heritage and consequently, mine, I have wanted to learn about this heritage. However, because my resources are limited to the Web right now, and there are many sites out there that label me as a "twinkie" and a "wannabe", I feel somewhat inhibited from doing anything that puts me in a position to be name-called. I hope this organization would provide this kind of information to those of us who are really "wannaknows".

[Linda]

One thing I definitely want to do with this is to give those people who've signed on access to a private area of this board where we can post a database of our family information. At least at this level, it will be very open. Basically, anybody who's interested who doesn't abuse the data and agrees to maintain privacy, i.e. not go publishing personal family information all over. I don't know, does that sound like it will provide enough protection so that we can freely share info on family lines?

[-cr21-]

Uhm.. what tribe are you refering to the Algonkwin speakers? The Blackfoot you're posting are from MONTANA and CANADA. The Saponi are Siouan speaking people. That would be like the Catawba, Biloxi, Dakota, Lakota, Nakota, Omaha, Ponca, Iowa, Osage, Quapaw, Kaw etc. etc... Nothing to do with any Algonkwin speaking people like the Ojibwa, Cheyenne, Powhatan Chiefdom etc etc or any Iroquoian speakers like the Six Nations, Wyandot, Erie or Cherokee. I'm wondering what all of this Ancient Native and Japanese stuff is. Absolute ish! I'm sorry but everything you talk about sounds exactly like every other wannabe I've come across. I find no relevance to anything you say. And anyone who is a real ndn knows you do not mention anything spiritual or ceremonial with anyone outside your circle. You really show what you are when you post anything. Throwing out every name in your family tree saying that they are some 'ancient native' when they are pretty obviously white as snow. As for you supposed Cheyenne claims and friends they are absolute bull. I have many Cheyenne friends in Lame Deer with family in Oklahoma as well. I asked around about your claims and they are false. If you know Cheyennes like you say then I'm sure you know the Blackwolf and Roundstone families. I'm sure you don't so thats ok. This claim of a Brant daughter and Roman nose to 'lighten the tribe'? What are you smoking? My Cheyenne friends got a laugh from that. Please refrain from trying to be a source on something you don't know because you confuse too many here who are looking for answers. They dont need to be sent on anymore of a goose chase or take you as an example to follow and really tarnish anyones name who claims ancestry from the Saponi and related peole. I've said my piece.. if it gets me booted from this site so be it. This had to be said by someone.

[Linda]

Don't carry this argument forward. I doubt if I will ever ban anybody, except of course those two guys posting the ***** sites, but they weren't members of this forum, anyway. However I do have a feeling the last two posts are going to disappear overnight.

[vance hawkins]

Before I was reading this website I was thinkin' Blackfoot and Lakota were enemies up in the Northern Plains, and the Lakota booted them & others off the Black Hills -- but I probably just got them mixed up with someone else, maybe Cree & Kiowa? Cr21, maybe you can set my memory straight -- wado.

I just thought of something. "Tallyho" very similar to "Tuckahoe"-- both ending in e/a-ho. Forget the Japanese seein' as it is on the East Coast of America that the term came from! Now if "Tuckahoe" had come from California, of course Dennis, you might have something there! But it was a group of early Englishmen! :)

vance

[-cr21-]

It was the Cheyenne and the Arikara that were moved off the Black Hills. As for Lakotas marrying Blackfoot or Ojibwe I dont see that happening since they were enemies. There is a blackfoot band in the Lakota. This is not referring to the Blackfoot of Montana and Canada. A completely different people.

[Bess]

Patty,

I see that you have some surnames that I am also interested in: James, Baker and Hubbard. These are not my direct lines but they have come up in related research.

I have a Jesse James who married a Jetha Viney in Kanawha county, West Va, May 4, 1893. On their marriage registration both of them are listed as "colored" and were born in Halifax County, Va. I don't have any info on the Jesse James but some Viney lines in Va. and WVA. have been identified in local records as being of "Indian extraction". What county is your James family from in NC? Were they ever in VA? What county were your Hubbards from in Indiana?

I have a Sarah Viney who married a Peyton Baker in Giles County, Va., Dec. 23, 1879.
There are also Hensleys listed among the Western Cherokee Nation; have you had any oral history in that direction

Bess.

[itconani]

yikes!
things are heatin' up.
a couple of points on this broad thread.
1) DK 's ancient material spans way beyond the scope of our query - before modern racial developments. All valueable in the broad view of human relations. lets focus on Saponi VA / Nc related historic / contact forward material.
2) The above discourse is a good example of how we lost the continent, and highlights alot of the confusion and variety of the "blackfoot" ID
3) Tuckahoe proper is Virginia Algonquian, period. Variations within dialects exists (like maybe Tockwogh town, fringe Powhatan dialect). However, since the English first settled and began recording written history in Virginia this land is the origination of Tuckahoe in English, as a loan word. Powhatan has the distinction of having the most loan / loan-blend words in English of any native language, because of the early and prolonged contact. That version is extant from Virginia - any variation is another matter.
4) its easier to document Saponi / Tutelo material than blackfoot, because we know where to start.

[Linda]

There would be no problem about membership to the Eastern Blackfoot Descendant's Association. The questions are simple 1) Are your people from the east and carry the story that you all are "Blackfoot." 3) Are you interested in finding out what that means? A yes answer to EITHER of these questions qualifies one to be a part of the implied inquiry.

We are not forming a tribe with restrictions on membership. That would be absurd. We don't know if this ID signifies an original tribe, or something an amalgamated group in later times came to call itself, or both. We are what we are, a group of descendants trying to figure out what this ID means.

I personally feel convinced that it harks back to a largely Eastern Siouan identity, and have identified with that. Given the preponderance of those types of surnames and other bits of evidence, that certainly is a significant enough chunk of what's going on for me to feel justified exploring those cultural elements. I would not say the Association would militate against other interpretations, but that does seem to be the direction the majority of those involved are in at present.

The only difference between the formal group and what we have going here is that there would be a restricted area with greater controls, where more private family info could be shared, and the group can adopt a decision making structure with which to undertake some projects. And as Techteach pointed out, we will be giving our family traditions a level of dignity that's been sorely lacking. There's been enough ridicule and dismissal of this heritage. I think taken together with what we have already uncovered, we can't be dismissed, except by a very close minded and biased perspective.

[vance hawkins]

Thanks Cr21.

Dennis I was just jokin', tryin' to lighten things up a little.

As for the "Japanese" connection, you gotta realize how much English has changed since the time of the King James Bible came out in 1611. Then go back 1000 years to the Anglo-Saxon invasion of that little Island, and the people spoke a language we wouldn't understand today.

Then consider that many Indian people say they never came from Asia, but were already here. But if the European version of history is true, and our ancestors DID cross that land bridge from Siberia to Alaska, well then, they did so at least 9 to 12 thousand years ago. Considering how much the English language has changed in a thousand years, extrapolate that same rate of change to at least 10,000 years ago, and I frankly don't see how a plant that doesn't even grow in Asia (the "Tuckahoe tubor") would be named after the capital city of Japan -- Tokyo, considering that the current Japanese people are known to have invaded Japan from the south -- the direction of Okinawa, not from the North, not from the Kamchatka penisula in Siberia.

vance

[Linda]

I think a key reason I cringe a bit at theorizing there's a connection between the word Tuckaho and Tokyo is that there are a lot of Native people who are seriously offended at the Bering Straights theory. As Vance just said, many traditional Indian people believe that they have always been here, and didn't come from anywhere else. I respect people's belief that Jesus rose from the dead, so why shouldn't I respect people's belief that man was created in the Americas?

It's one thing if an archeologist were to find a 15,000 year old Japanese canoe on the west coast of the Americas, that kind of begs consideration, but to potentially be antagonizing or offending people over what seems such a flimsy argument doesn't seem to be worth it.

[techteach]

Linda:
I think your membership guidelines are excellent. They ought to encompass anyone who has participated in this forum at some time, Blackfoot ID or not. (Well...maybe not the guys who posted the ***** stuff.) Then we can benefit from everyone's research too. I have Shawnee and, I suspect, Delaware, gg..grandparents too, and the information I have learned on this forum has helped me find out about them too.

Cindy

[lynnd]

Linda...

Fab idea, whether one wants to be a member or not. If you decided to start the Association, I would be honoured to be a member and help in anyway I can.

WaDo

[Patty]

Bess,

I'm afraid I don't have enough info about these ancestors to really answer your questions. :( Still working on it.....

My Elizabeth James was born somewhere in NC. She was married to Patrick Campbell who was born either in Ireland or PA--don't know which. Her Father-in-Law supposedly died in Augusta County, VA.

My Hubbards come from Clay County KY, before that they were in Ashe County, NC. My Hubbard line has since moved on to southeastern IN, but I'm not in touch with that branch of the family.

I have one Hensley ancestress (Sarah). I'm not sure where she was born, but her spouse (Robert Ball) was born in Boone's Path, Lee County VA and her son was born somewhere in North Carolina.

This is all from others research, so I'm not "married" to these facts......

I don't have much oral history to go on. My Mom's side of the family was/is uneasy with being anything but "white". My maternal grandpa once grudgingly admitted that there was probably Indian in his background, but he wasn't happy about it. (I'd love to show you all a picture of him!)

My Dad used to say we were Blackfeet when we were kids. The last time we talked to him about it he said it was Cherokee. Personally, I think that Blackfeet is probably closer to the truth because he told us that when he was a very young man and it was probably "closer to the source."

I'm not close with my Dad so there's not much to work with.....




Originally posted by Bess
Patty,

I see that you have some surnames that I am also interested in: James, Baker and Hubbard. These are not my direct lines but they have come up in related research.

I have a Jesse James who married a Jetha Viney in Kanawha county, West Va, May 4, 1893. On their marriage registration both of them are listed as "colored" and were born in Halifax County, Va. I don't have any info on the Jesse James but some Viney lines in Va. and WVA. have been identified in local records as being of "Indian extraction". What county is your James family from in NC? Were they ever in VA? What county were your Hubbards from in Indiana?

I have a Sarah Viney who married a Peyton Baker in Giles County, Va., Dec. 23, 1879.
There are also Hensleys listed among the Western Cherokee Nation; have you had any oral history in that direction

Bess.

[Patty]

I haven't read this whole thread yet.....I've been really swampted lately....BUT, I'd love to be involved in an Eastern Blackfoot Descendant's Association.


Originally posted by Linda
I'm thinking of starting a group by that name. There are enough of us, we could do with more of a sense of community, and there are enough of us to undertake some wortwhile projects. What do you all think?

[SenecaSaponi]

Hi Linda, I finally decided I would register on the forum. I think it is a great idea to start a group called EBDA. Let me know how it goes.

[Erica Butler]

Just wanted to drop a note of support for your idea, Linda.

Blessings,

Raven aka Erica

[Linda]

Welcome, Erica. I hope I can get this rolling pretty soon. Swamped with work lately, when I haven't been feeling trashed out, so wish me luck.

[Erica Butler]

Linda, if there is something I can do, let me know.

I can be a heck of a proofreader, and I'm also an illustrator. I *could* be talked into doing illos/logos/ etc, ..the best bribe for me is usually cyber chocolate! :-)

Blessings,

Erica
aka Raven

[Patty]

I'd be glad to help too. I'm a secretary, so typing & proofreading are about the same as breathing.

I also put together newsletters in Word with columns & lots of graphics if that kind of thing would be of any help.

[Linda]

What I need help with is quantifying data. I've heard from lots of families privately with this ID and we need to set out a database of the names that have come up. It's like, I'm in the position to know that 6 of the 9 surnames I know about in my grandmother's line occur in other families with the Blackfoot ID. I also roughly know about patterns in locations. All of us should be able to have this data.

Right now, if I could mail a CD of my Sissipaha inbox to some helpers who could help sort out these messages that would be very meaningful help. (Geez, I wonder what other junk is in there, this could be embarrasing !!! haha. maybe I haven't thought this through carefully, hahahhaa)

On another note, this thread digressed into an argument. One of the people involved has gone through and deleted his/her posts, so now this digression has become very disjointed and confusing to any new readers. I'd like to know if it would be okay if I just deleted all the posts pertaining to that argument. What do you all think? I was thinking to just move them, but that looks like it will be very cumbersome to do.

[Erica Butler]

Hi, Linda.. I'd be happy to help. And I don't mind if you delete the posts, but actually, they didn't bother me all that much. There's always gotta be a dissenter! :-)

If you like I can send you my snail mail addy in a private email.

Blessings,

Erica

[Linda]

These posts were deleted voluntarily by the individual poster. I'll scarcely ever ban anyone. (We banned some ***** hackers, for example.) Flat out name calling, hollering posts will disappear.

I'm going to disable the ability of anyone but the administrator to delete posts. If anyone wants to make their words disappear, they of course, can edit them all away, but there will then be a blank post with their name on it, so that readers can see that something was deleted, and that's why the flow of conversation has just broken down.

Thanks for the offer to help. I'll be waiting to hear from you.

[Linda]

Just refreshing.

[lynne pepper]

Hello Linda,

And thanks for the invitation.

I have read the above posts with interest.

There are some people here who would, and have, qualified for tribes in the VA and NC area. As well, I remember a post from a gentleman who had the qualifications for admittance into the Haliwa, and was refused on the grounds that he lived in VA and could not be an active member in the tribe.
Then too, I have seen posts from a gentleman who lived in DC and was greeted by a current member of the Haliwa who suggested to him that he contact his cousin.
These two posts raise confusion within me. I can also see how federal restrictions may, and possibly do, strangle admittance or identity recognition.

I like the idea of the association, personally.

Take for instance the fact that when my father was born, there was no recognition for the Haliwa. It was a family story often told. By the time I was born....just at the time I was born....the Haliwa were recognized by the state of NC. They were then "allowed" to be Indians. However, they are just as mixed in heritage today....if not more so!...than they were in the past when they were not recognized. Now my Dad never returned to Halifax co., or tried to make good with his mother's people, especially since she turned her back on her children and threw them into an orphanage. Is he then, any less a Haliwa? He is dead. He can't apply for membership. However, he left us all with the story, no the fact, that we were of that people. How do I feel about that? I feel two ways. I know that I am Indian. I know that I am mixed. I know that I am about as assimilated as a person can get. None of this bothers me. To me, its laughable if it bothers anybody else. I am what I am. I'm not trying to steal bread off anyone's table, or to order anybody around and tell them what they are or what they should do. Frankly, I find all of this intertribal naysaying, boring. Haven't you been there, done that. and it didn't work?
Not only did it not work, it led to the downfall of the entire Indian civilization. This is a fact, not an opinion.

The Indian civilization is gone. Lets face it. Its the 21st century. But are Indians gone? This is going to depend on how you define Indians. You can either pack it up and say die, or you can move into a new phase. 400 years of interbreeding, of dying, of moving, of hiding out, of having you family stories...this is the east coast. Sooner, rather than later, this will happen on the west coast. If the west coast wants to go their own way...in my opinion only...then they must do so. They do not have the power, or, IMO, the permission, to call the shots on the east coast. If they were wise, they would learn from what happened here, because it is their future.

So where do we go from here? What are our goals? What is worth saving? What can be accomplished in the venue of complete assimilation?

Personally, as a woman, I would not be willing to go backward in time and assume the habits of my Indian ancestors. As they lived, I think that women got a raw deal. I am a modern person, with modern responsibilities. I am an Indian. I am an aethiist. I don't feel comfortable worshiping any god, no matter what you call him/them. This is a reality. Indians do not automatically worship any Indianesque creator, or AUTOMATICALLY adhere to any stereotype.

I find racism boring and in bad taste, no matter who practises it.

This is brand new territory. We are mixed. We have some Indian blood, a little or a lot. East coast Indian culture is essentially dead. If you get really, really picky about it, a lot of west coast tribal culture is dead. I read with interest how so many things about western tribal culture is newly revived. Does this make it invalid? I suppose it depends on who you are talking to. To someone with no invested interest in it, perhaps it does.

We live in a time where the governments of east coast states are starting to make repairation by recognizing tribes that, in the past, they refused to admit the existence of. We live in a time where this makes the "dead" suddenly "alive". What does this mean? How far is it going to progress? Do you realize that many people like ourselves are actually in a position to make major contributions to this? What is the nature of the contributions that we may make?

There is much to discuss here.

Be Well,

Lynne

.

[quest for facts]

Linda,
You idea is a good one but since I don't carry the Blackfoot ID in my family then I will not join you all. As you know I am Cheroenhaka(Nottoway) and Saponi we have never used Blackfoot to ID ourselves. My husband family's does however ID themselves Blackfoot and they are from the east so I know this ID exists among the siouian people. I have no idea why my family did not ID this way perhaps since I am mixed among Indian Nations my forefathers just choose to tell us we are simply indians. It has taken intensive research for me to find out exactly where I belong in this world which nations I belong to. The Cheroenhaka are wonderful people as we all know, I am very proud to be one of them. I am also very proud to have been born in the homeland of my people and to have grown up there. I will return there one day too to stay. I am also praying that pesky hurricane stays off the coast and does not bother them there.
Linda

[quest for facts]

Well duh I just checked the dates on this after I wrote it.

[Linda]

Linda, we've changed the name to "Eastern Siouan Descendant's Association" because it was inappropriate to be excluding people who do not have that ID in their families. Some do, some don't, but we call come from the same people.

Lynne, I see the same thing, that this is a fluid moment in time, when historic changes are being made, and what we all do here and now will matter.

[lynne pepper]

Hi Quest,

If we can define our goals in such a way that promotes the survival of eastern Indian people in the 21st century....perhaps the day will come when individual members of recognized tribes will want to join this association because it is....hopefully...a valuable association that promotes Indian life.
Hopefully, the day may come when it can provide information, networking, and a "kind" of unity of action in East Coast Tribal life.

As far as I know, there aren't any kind of pan Indian, or even pan regional Indian associations. I could be so very wrong about this, though.

Linda,

I salut your courage and vision for coming up with this.
I wanted to throw out a few ideas for comment for the entire panel. Detailed comment on ANY ideas given here will only help us define what we want to do, what we can do, and what our dreams are. They may not all be doable, especially within any kind of short time frame.

What can we do, as a group, to enliven and inform east coast tribes?

Do we need to generate materials? Perform research? Provide networking? Lobby state's legislatures? ( as private citizens of course)

What are our ideas about the Indian way of life? What is precious and valuable about it? How do we achieve this in the face of current property laws, tax laws, and the actual death of tribal life and the clan system of identification or inheritance? Are these kinds of issues even pertinent anymore? If they are not pertinent or achivable, what kind of nugget of value did these systems have that we can harvest and promote?

Yours,
Lynne

[vance hawkins]

Lynne, I like your ideas.

I am not sure about the "Pan-Indian" part (that would have to be thought out carefully) but the rest sounded great! :)

We are already working on some of that.

As far as the "Indian way of life" -- a Cherokee elder (federally enrolled) once told me that culture is dynamic, not static -- it changes over time. There are as many Indian ways of life as there are Indians.

Showing the evolution of culture from earliest times until the present would be interesting, noting which aspects of culture had been lost, and what had been retained.

Also did you get my message to you? I sent it over a week ago. If not I can send it again.

vance

[lynellarainhawk]

Linda,

I'm glad this post was re-entered into the current time frame. I did not know it was here. You know I'm backing this a hundred percent and then some.

My thing has always been that my ancestors be Realized, Recognized and Remembered. From the very beginnings in NC, VA all the way through history to where we all ended up, be it Indiana, Kentucky or a Colorado mountain or Canada. We are all here, we were always here, and we will always be here as long as we can work together on this without certain tedious, quabbles and personal affrontations.

Linda, because of you we can do this. We can put this together and the ESDA WILL lock in the facts that the ancestors WERE and through us STILL ARE.

Of coarse we are a mix. But I've smelled some darn beautiful potpourri and colorful bouquets and our ancestors would be greatly proud of the ESDA. An Association can allow us all the time and opportunity to re-establish the ancestors ways and incorporate their lives into our own, as well as our children and grandchildren, etc.

I'm darn proud! Thank you for that, Linda. ;)

[todgar]

I just read through the posts on this thread, and I must say that I like the idea of an Eastern Siouan Descendant's Association. If I may suggest a Tutelo motto: _Maesani huk miwamihtakai_ (roughly translated: 'We are all the people.')

Todd (a.k.a. 'Tohkai, the fox')

[lynne pepper]

Originally posted by vance hawkins
Lynne, I like your ideas.

I am not sure about the "Pan-Indian" part (that would have to be thought out carefully) but the rest sounded great! :)

Me:
Pan Indian...heh...OK, I was on a roll. I recognise that the purpose of this association does not have that kind of scope.



Vance:
We are already working on some of that.

As far as the "Indian way of life" -- a Cherokee elder (federally enrolled) once told me that culture is dynamic, not static -- it changes over time. There are as many Indian ways of life as there are Indians.


Me:
Only too true. Not only is it dynamic...things have changed materially a lot. You know one thought occurs to me, which is something that this association, and this forum, seeks to address...in the past tribes were lost when they were scattered. That was one of the primary tribe busting techniques used. If you could scatter the people, you didn't even have to go to all the trouble of killing them. However, because of improved communications, like the internet, people who still hang on are able to find each other and coalese for the first time. Distance does not have to be the barrier that it was. And consider this as well....the scattering did not happen THAT long ago. Its still within the grasp of research. So like the reclaimation of Tutelo, its still very possible to do this research and make ammends to the ancestors' experience.


Vance:
Showing the evolution of culture from earliest times until the present would be interesting, noting which aspects of culture had been lost, and what had been retained.


Me:
Yes. There are a lot of interesting and colorful distinctions between eastern woodland peoples and plains people...just visually the changes and differences would be of interest to everyone...and informative to the public at large.
When thinking of non profit aspects...non profit has to be of use and educsation to the public at large. The history of an entire section of the country, the Indian peoples, IS of use and interest to the public at large. Its of historic, and scientific interest.


Vance:
Also did you get my message to you? I sent it over a week ago. If not I can send it again.



Me:
Yike! Yes I did and I sent you an e mail back again. Let me find it and send it again.

Regards,
Lynne
vance

[collins]

This sounds like a very cool idea. I would be interested.

[collins]

Will this organization be a 501(c)(3)? or just a cyberspace organization?

[techteach]

Collins,
We are filling out the papers for a 501(c)(3). We'll keep you in the loop. Glad you are interested.

Techteach

[pghapki]

I really like the idea of an Association. I know that there would people from the Melungeon groups who would be interested in it.

So, when's our first meeting? I'll bring the tater salad!! ;-)

[techteach]

I will keep you informed.

Techteach

[Tom]

Hey we need to start "a happenen wid this"!

[Linda]

Some of us have been talking about a gathering that's relatively centrally located. We always have the Campout the last weekend in June, and there was a marvelous turnout last summer by people on the board, Bill, Patty, Vance, who am I forgetting? But there's thought about doing something easier for more people to get to.

I've wondered about the Big Sandy area -- what was originally Totero River, and an area crawling with our Blackfoot ID'd people. But I haven't taken out an atlas and figured it out. Brenda Sampsel, do you still live there?

Are there any other locations anybody wants to throw out there?

[vance hawkins]

I might not be able to go this year, I don't know yet.

But I'd like to visit Scott Co., Va., the location of Stoney Creek Primitive Baptist Church, Ft. Blackmore and other nearby locations. I'd like to look up the exact locations where my ancestors lived. Rockbridge/Amherst Co., Va, especially a place called "Miserable Mountain" where other ancestors were. I'd like to meet some Monacan people in person, as well as known descendants of the Melungeons.

Also the place you are talking about "Big Sandy" is near where Delaware Chief Bull was -- isn't it? Is the area you are talking about anywhere near Wheeling, W Va?

vance

[lynellarainhawk]

Ooh yes! This sounds good to me. It is definately close enough for Kerry and if he can go, then Glenn may allow me to go too. I hated missing the last one.

[techteach]

Any chance we can change the date? I always have a conference right around the end of June and beginning of July?

Techteach

[mrspatino]

Okay I know I was asked about this and have been soooooooo busy I have not responded, and quite frankly it freakes me out and makes me mad that someone called you a new ager Auntie. m m m anyway I would like some details about the happenings with the ESDA, I am interested, but would like somemore details, goals, innitiative, members ect. but I would like to help when I can.

[techteach]

Christina,

It is not dead. I checked with one of the people who has been working on the paperwork for the nonprofit status this weekend. We can keep you posted.

Techteach

[collins]

I love to draw and if you guys would like I can put my hand to any descriptions of an ensignia or emblem. I think I saw some where on here that someone else is artistic too. I would love to see some possibilities posted.
Thanks

[techteach]

Collins,

Thanks for the offer. We might need those skills; if you see the posting on the materials forum, "I think I found our emblem.", you will see that we have a gorget with an emblem on it. When we actually get going, I am not sure if this will be used for such things as letterhead (assuming we do something like this) or if we will need another. We'll keep your offer in mind.

I assume that you are interested in being part of the organization?

Techteach

[collins]

Yes I am interested in the organization. I did see the gorget picture and did a drawing based on it. I sent it to Linda a few weeks back. Anything I do to help just let me know.

[collins]

Sorry that last post should have read anything I can do to help let me know.

[techteach]

Gotcha. I passed on the information.

Techteach

[blackindiangirl]

I definitely would like to join this Association, also. I've been wanting to join the NAIEA, but haven't yet. I think there's a fee and you are required to prove your Indian lineage. I know which tribes my descendants come from, but I don't know if my aunt has documentation for all of them. I don't want any governmental recognition or anything like that......just that somewhere it is documented that I am an Indian descendant. (Which I guess, really isn't necessary.......as long as I know it!):D

[techteach]

I am not sure where the status of the paperwork on this lies. I will let you know when I hear something. Until then, "consider yourself one of the family."

Techteach

[lynellarainhawk]

Hey Techteach and All,

Linda has the first wave of the paperwork. I got it as far as I could and my computer would not let me save it. So I printed it up and snail mailed it to her about a month ago. It had some gaps that I couldn't fill in and there are some other forms I have to get and do the same thing with. We are a ways out yet, but it is in the works. Now, Back to this next get together! I am so looking foreward to it. I think :) Glenn will let me go, even if he can't. Kerry said he would definately try to go. So, that will help me convince Glenn to let me go! I hope we can do this. I've missed out on the other ones. As soon as these Holidays are over I can get some time to work on some of this ESDA stuff again and try to get it moving along. Love & Light, Lynella. P.S. HAPPY, MERRY, However you celebrate it, Christmas!

[techteach]

Same to you and everyone on this forum. Happy Holidays!

[lynellarainhawk]

Linda,

Just checking in. Happy New Year All! How is this years campout plans going? I'm still ultra in! I want to go really bad! I like your idea you posted earlier for the location. Time for me this summer will be irrelivant, I'm ignoring that ticking nusance! I'll take a break where ever I have to for this. Just let me know!

[Patty]

Happy New Year back atcha!

....and thank you, Lynella, for the lovely Christmas card! :) I was so surprised and pleased that you thought of me!

I'm very excited about the gathering this summer as well. I will be there if I possibly can. We are bargaining a new labor contract this summer, and I've applied for an internship program that will be a full time committment the last week of July and the first week of August. ........ so, unless my life interferes too much, I will come play in the woods with my friends this summer! :)

[Brenda Ferrell Sampsel]

Wishing everyone a new year of peace and plenty!

Brenda

[Red Metis]

Just trying to find an update on this thread. Are we--meaning the Siouan descendants--a formal/informal group know as the Eastern Blackfoot Descendant's Association?

Has anything new happened with this??

[techteach]

It was agreed to call it Eastern Siouan Descendent's Association. There were plans to submit non-profit paperwork. Lynella sent it to Linda, but I don't know what point it is at from there.
Several get together once a year, so watch for the discussion to begin. It usually is something like the last week in June (always opposite a conference I attend).

I assume that you wish your name submitted?

Techteach

[Red Metis]

Yes, I would very much like to submit my name.
I appreciate the update you sent--thank you.

[Art]

Linda,

This is a wonderful idea. I am interested, too.

Art

[techteach]

OK, I will be glad to send your name.

Techteach

[maude]

Hello there, My name is Louise. I am a ceremonial sub chief to the CherokeeBlackfeet Cultural Circle in New York. I was told to go to this site last year & forgot all about it, I am happy I remembered. I entered into a conversation, actually a very nasty debate with some folks over at Indianz.com, about having Blackfeet blood in a Cherokee person. They went through the whole, "it couldn't have happened thing. I know it did & can trace my Cherokee & Blackfeet roots back to the 1800's, I am very glad that this site exists & I will be visiting often. :D

[maude]

[SIZE=3][COLOR=crimson][I] Will there be a Eastern Blackfoot Association or an Eastern Blackfoot organization? I would love to be a part of that

[maude]

Hi Linda, I was unsure of where the Blackfeet blood came from, I had some nasty words with some of the Western tribes who said I was confused, my grandmas papers said that Blackfeet blood came from NC, which would be the old Saponi.
I wanted to let you know that in DC we now have Global Indigenous Healing Circles, most of our members are native mixed bloods. Eastern Indian people have our culture, but because of whatever happened during chasing folks to the west, we haven't had much of an example.
I was pretty fortunate in that my grandmothers made sure I was knowledgeble about the clans (Cherokee) in my family they also made me very knowledgeble about certain dancing like the hoop dance, the round dance, not a whole lot more. I was also taught how to smudge & pray, so I can hold my own in situations that I am around folks who are so assimilated, till they don't know how
I am saying nothing bad against assimilation, we really don't know much as east coaster tribes as a whole & most did not get a whole lot of info from their families. I am hoping that some of that negative stuff can change, we have 7 generations in front of us to worry about & the 7 generations behind that one & on & on.
I tell the western folks that on the east coast mixing seemed to be the only way some stayed alive, that some kept their land & their pride.
Assimilation was the thing to be, because to identify as indian was to ask for ridicule, from whites & from blacks. Growing up in New York around other blacks, was hellish & it was all about choice, the choice was, identify as black & nothing but, or be ostracized. My neighborhood was a mixed one & the native/black kids were Cherokee,Seneca & Oneida. We began having Mohawks ( I dated a Mohawk/black guy who was killed in Attica)
It is so important to learn our ancestors ways, this is a way of repaying them for helping us to be born.
Native people were given the responsibility of taking care of this land, when the invaders came they interrupted that process & subsequently we have messed up lands.
One day, things will be reversed & we will be in the positions we were intended to be in, but we must learn what that position is, shouldn't we?
I am a ceremonial chief to the CherokeeBlackfeet Cultural Cirlce in New York. Many folks there also carry Saponi descendant blood in their veins.
Chief Red Deer's number is (917) 951-0294 or (877) 280-1625.
My number is 202) 986-3935. I would like to invite you to a meeting here in DC if you are on this end in April.
April 22nd, Chief Red Deer will be here to talk about the Cherokee Blackfeet Cultural Circle, we will have a naming ceremony & we will sign folks up for membership, that includes tax free status.
Do Na Da Gahvoni Wado
Louise Thundercloud

[Dreaminghawk]

Heya Maude, welcome to Saponitown. You are preaching to the choir about the plight of eastern ndn descendents. Here at Saponitown we are pretty much apolitical. We are all about research.... amassing the facts and documents in one database which will show the world the truth through the proponderence of evidence. That is our goal. If you have access to a document that uses the term "Blackfoot" to describe your grandma, we would be very interested in seeing a scanned copy, as it would help prove a case for eastern blackFOOT saponi. Meanwhile, if you would post your known family info on our genealogy forum, we can all see where your people started and what migration they took ..... and you can find out who's your cousins ;-)
Ken

[maude]

Hello all, there is another group to consider, "The Cherokee Blackfeet Cultural Circle" in New York. We are currently in a membership drive, you need to supply ID . Contact Chief Red Deer at (917) 951-0294 or (877) 280-1625. My name is Chief Louise Thundercloud, I can be reached via email at: maudehills@aol.com. I am the Southeastern representative of the CherokeeBlackfeet Cultural Circle here in DC.
Chief Red Deer will be here on the 22nd of April to talk about the Cultural Circle, we will have a naming ceremony & folks will be able to sign up for membership.
It is the 22nd of April at 2:30, 901 G Street NW. Washington DC .
You can call (202) 986-3925 (me) for information.
I have a group in DC for the unity of all indigenous folks. Most of us are mixed bloods on this coast, many do not have any documentation on a written basis, most have oral history & actually both native & african peoples kept pretty strict oral histories, those things are very important.

[maude]

Sure, here is the information I have James Hill (grandfather) b 1905, d 1943 from our oaral history, he was CherokeeBlackfeet, Louise Carson, b 1911, d 1991, from the oral history, she was also Cherokee Blackfeet. My cousins are: Bobe Lockhart (deceased) Tiny Lockhart, (deceased) Uncle Bay Kitt (deceased) George Kitt b 1905 Maude Mc Willie b 1913 That is all the information I have. All my folks are from the Anderson County, Columbia & Sumter County areas of SC

[maude]

I am sorry that I misunderstood what you asked. My tracing begins in 1863 with the Mc Willies, that would be in Cershaw County South Carolinas, my grandmother was born to that family, then met up with my grandfather who was raised on a reservation in Kansas. That would be a few years late, 1910. They ran from the reserve, we have not been told why. My mother was born from those two in 1935. My parents met in New York around 1953, My fathers family is where we were told the Blackfeet blood came in, but also Mali blood from Jamaica, that would be from a great grandfather, who was taken as a slave from South Carolina to the Carribean, so I carry that blood as well. We also have the Lockharts in my tree, altho none of us know when they got in, we have Vances also. So We are McWillies (from a Scoth Irish slavemaster) Kitts from my grandad on my mothers side, Carson's from my fathers side & Hills also from his side. Lockharts from mom's side & Vance. I do not know much about my dad's side. I deeply apologize for not being able to provide a written paper saying Blackfoot/Blackfeet.
I know from what I went through this past week, that the folks out west think it is a joke that anyone in the east would claim Blackfeet blood, that doesn't seem to be a conversation any of them are interested in having.
I think that the best thing we can do on the east coast is learn all we can about the ways of our ancestors, adopt them to the truest form & get our pride in ourselves back with our knowledge.
Most of us on this coast are mixed in one or many ways. Most of our folks had to mix to survive.
We just have to keep keeping on & learning & growing

[maude]

I would like to be part of this group too, let me know what I can do to help

[Dreaminghawk]

Maude says>>>> my grandmas papers said that Blackfeet blood came from NC, which would be the old Saponi.

I'm sorry. I took that statement to mean there was a document in existence that used the term "blackfoot" to refer to an eastern tribe.
You ask how you can be a part of this group. You first need to understand who we are and what we are about. My suggestion is to go to Saponitown home page and read the article on "the other blackfoot". (There are other articles and links of interest also.) Also use the forum search feature to search the term "blackfoot cherokee" Please note that we share no cultural or genealogical heritage with the western blackFEET. Our heritage is souian and we are 500 years removed from the western sioux.
Then, go to "forums home" click on "share genealogy research" and post what family info you have on those born before 1930.... all the complete names and dates that you have. There IS a paper trail on everybody .... and our resident genealogy guru, Bill Childs, has a gift for finding it ;-)
Also browse the "share history research" forum. I daresay there is no other source on-line with the database that we share at Saponitown. Happy hunting ;-)

[maude]

Thanx Dreaminghawk, I will go to the pages you suggested

[maude]

Hi there, these are very exicting times, some of the things happening right now are good things, some are terrible things.
This has been a busy week for me, the decision agains the mixed blood Utes, the Northern Peyquate, the play about the relationship with the mixed blood grandchildren of the buffalo children, explaining the truth about the buffalo chidren to non-indian people, having dialogue across tribal lines with folks on issues that are affecting indian country, all has been exhausting. Plus I still haven't figured out how to use the genealogical forum yet. Does anyone know anything about hotels in the area of the conference in April? It is in what my Wamponoag friend tells me is the heart of Lumbee country[I]:D

[maude]

Hello there, since I am so bad at figuring my way around this site, I just thought I would put this info here, the conference has been changed from the 13.14 to the 20,21(910) 521-6895
jay.vest@uncp.edu. This is the contact person. Dr. Jay Vest. Hope to see some of you there

[dwebb]

This is an interesting topic to me. My family (Webb surname) is native, and looks native--we have always identified as being such. We have the oral history saying this, but no affiliation or documentation. We are from Wilson/ Rocky Mount/ Saratoga NC area.

Whats funny is that I have been told that we are Cherokee (Which I partly discard because we are from the wrong area and every "wannabe" is Cherokee) and Blackfoot in addition to Tuscaora and Sioux that I've heard.... I'm just looking for solid info. I've never paid attention to the blackfoot claim because there is no connection to the Blackfeet/ blackfoot out west.

I honestly don't think there ever was a connection, at least in the last 500+ years. If this is something that is common enough then there must be some sort of language issue involved. Maybe the name the people called themselves translated to Blackfoot, or the whites called them that, or any number of things.

Is there any material evidence whatsoever for this label? Does the name appear anywhere in print? I can't believe that if it is legitimate that there is no substantial evidence. There has to be something conserdering the number of people who appear to claim this origin.

[techteach]

Dave,
Try reading the article on the home page here.
If you read the whole web site (take a month's vacation to do it), you will find that many of us have the same story. My story also is Blackfoot Cherokee, but this ggggrandmother came from western PA near Pittsburgh, marryin a white Irishman whose brother also married a native woman with the story Blackfoot Cherokee, and moving to join another mixed group from Ohio. This mixed group originated in southern MD, moves to the panhandle of WV, then Ohio and finally Iowa. This WV group is turning out to be at least some Shawnee (and I have Webb marrying into this WV group in Ohio.) .
Linda, who originated this web site, theorizes that the name originates from from a Siouan translation of Blackfoot. Saponi1 indicates that, while the main Cherokee body was farther south, some of those NA living in the mountain areas of VA were known as some kind of Cherokee. I am not remembering her term right now but you can search for her postings. Linda has spoken with someone who, during research, found the term Blackfoot in print, but cannot remember where. No one here has found it yet.
I believe that there is a story among the western Sioux that they once lived east. The language of the Tutelo (Eastern Siouan tribe) is very similar to Lakota Sioux.
Anyway, there are a lot of us with the same story, so there has to be something to it. There was a DE town called Blackfoot Town, named after NA who lived there at one time (lots of my surnames are in DE) and a cemetery and church in Pike County, IN called Blackfoot Church and Blackfoot Cemetery, named after NA who were once there. I traced one or two families who originate near Blackfoot Town, have the Blackfoot rumor in the family, and are buried in Blackfoot Cemetery.

Welcome. Those of us with the Blackfoot ID are trying to determine the source of the term.

Techteach

[dwebb]

It sounds like there is a good deal of compiling evidence on this subject. I read Linda's essay and it was great. This really explains a lot about my family. I would like to see if my genealogy can somehow substantiate this connection. Most of my dad's family looks very native, and lives in that area- they seem to always have lived there. They also ID as Blackfoot, which I always objected to. I feel bad for this now. I could be years ahead in my reasearch if I knew that there might be something to this. I think that som of the best connections might come from the Ohio Saponi if they do indeed call themselves Blackfoot.

This is great!

[Red Metis]

Here is the page I mentioned a while ago about the 'blackfoot' ID. It was under the title 'Triracials of the Upper South'. I don't know how on target DeMarce's information is...I think she's the one who blasted B. Kennedy's book on Melungeons. This is the only reference I've found to the blackfoot ID outside of Saponi Town. I did find a reference to "Negrofoot" as a location in VA while looking through census records, too. Don't know if it's relevant.

The article is at:

http://hometown.aol.com/angelaw859/tri_racials.html

[techteach]

I hope I do not offend anyone here in saying this, but I do not believe that the Blackfoot ID signified triracial, unless it was a result of the kind of racial classifying that Plecker did. And it seems that since my family continued NA customs well into the mid-1900s, that does not seem likely, given that my ancestor was rumored to have strongly identified with her NA background. My DNA results did not include African American, only European and NA. And my gggrandmother is buried beneath a stone reading Blackfoot Indian with the family rumor of Blackfoot Cherokee. She was born in around 1814 near Pittsburgh.

Techteach

[Red Metis]

I wouldn't think that it was blacks that could only claim this ancestry. I did think it was significant that many did make the claim to have Blackfoot blood--it had to come from somewhere in the south.

[Linda]

Yes, there are people with the eastern Blackfoot ID who are mixed with white, some with black, some with both. It's an Indian identity that's persisted whatever else it was mixed with that this culture seemed to believe would negate it.

[techteach]

I certainly concur with both you, Red Metis, and you, Linda. Sheer numbers with this NA ID in their family says something, regardless of the ethnic combination.

Techteach

[lynellarainhawk]

Hey! I concur as well. You know, Techteach, my mother's family too practiced their ways well into the 1900's as well. My mom once told me of woven mats her and her siblings slept on, on the floor. I wish I knew what materials they were woven out of though. But, at any rate, the ID is certainly comprised of all races, some more of one race than another perhaps. Between us all though, we definately have a little bit of everything. Love & Light, Lynella.

[collins]

Any news on the Eastern Blackfoot Descendant's Association organization yet?

[techteach]

I don't think the nonprofit papers have been filled out yet.
Take note of our get-together this summer, if you can make it, Collins. You will find it both in the Welcome to Saponitown thread and the Events thread. See if you can stop by. For the first time, I plan to be there. Every othe time it has been on a weekend when I was at a conference. I just made reservations.

Techteach

[maude]

Haven't been on this site, however I have had quite a few nice things happen in my life concerning my identity. In a dream I remember my grandmother telling us we's Pikuni People, & my grandfather telling me that his family was Mesa Verde.
The folks on my mothers side are definitely Cherokee, we aren't sure what kind, but could someone be so kind as to show me where to go to put the informaton I do have onto a table to begin to look for my kin
Louise Thundercloud
Also there is a pow wow that main mixed bloods attend in New York in october, I will also be formally given the title Chief I have held since last year. I was made Vice Chief as well as Band Chief, my first order of business is to provide protection to those who have absolutely no proof of ancestry
We are also offering through the Cherokee Blackfeet Cultural Circle tax exempt status.
For information on that call Chief Red Deer at 917 280-1625 or 917 951-0294

I am at maudehills@aol.com

[maude]

Oh I forgot to mention that I do have a Western Blackfoot tie from Montana, then Canada, I guess I am not supposed to exist huh? My grandmothers tales were that the Cherokee shielded the Blackfoot as the government chased them all over the place & killed them for no reason
Louise Thundercloud

[whitehawk]

Hi Everyone, I was wondering if there has been any new information on this. I am very interested in joining this association. If anyone has any new info, please pass it on. Thanks Gavin, AKA "Whitehawk"

[Junglegeorge]

Hi Linda,

First I want to say I think your idea is great, it will challenge many things that depserately need challenged. You will be attacked for it, but just ignore that. If the insults help hone research skills, then that is excellent for all. Privacy is also important. It was here that I finally abandoned what I knew was a family fable to hide, and began looking for who my family really is, and I found them all, right on rez roles. So many thanks. Whether some folks like it or not, it is clear to me the Creator or whatever ya wanna call Him is working through you for natives. I wish the ones opposing you had half the heart to recover their displaced, and lost brothers that you have constantly demonstrated. If they had, maybe natives as a whole would have been in a much different and better place than they are now long ago.

I find it thoroughly disgusting as an Arapaho that people would have a problem with this at all. Apparently they forgot their own history, about how their own people were dispersed after Sand Creek Massacre and other atrocities. It also thoroughly irks me that the same ones who whine about a native who has some white mixed in ('wannabe' has become such an ugly buzz word, with little or no real meaning other than more or less a middle finger at someone they prolly don't even know), will fully embrace a spaniard conquistador with less or no blood at all. You hit a hot button and I am glad you did. Truth is most of the tribes have lots of spaniard mixed in now and noone says a word, but it let be a little but of white and OH MY GAWD shoot em!

Good job, you have my support, you will find your way as you go, like all of us always have. I think most of the people angry at you are probably mad that the settler in them is showing up, and their own greed being exposed. Nothing as unsettling to some of them as the idea that others who are real tribal descendants of theirs might find their way back home, and want to live with the tribe and shake up their corruption, mind control, little modulated suburban world, and take a bit of land, or God forbid even percap money.

Good job Linda. Never understimate the power of what appears to some to be a weakness. I wish they all had the same weakness, if it is that.

[Linda]

Thanks for the kind words. We need to get moving on the ESDA.

[lynnd]

Hi Linda:

Hope all is well.

I just wanted to let you know that I agree with junglegeorge 100%. I'm not sure what this disdain is humanity (or not?) still finds for one another.

You also have my support.

Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

[SenecaSaponi]

I would be interested in the ESDA. I'll keep checking back

[Jack Adkins]

Any updates on this?

[Jack Adkins]

I've been reading this forum and frankly, its gonna take me awhile but I plan on reading every forum on this site. I was amazed by the venom being spewed out by this young 27 year old Cheyenne hothead. I also am under the impression there were a few more that were deleted that I missed. You will find guys like these everywhere in every culture. On many of the reservations they are the young radical fringe that think they know everything and strike out at everybody. The Tuscarora reservation has a band of them that shave their heads except for scalplocks and go off the rez and cause trouble and have even been caught stealing ATMs and dragging them back to the reservation and cracking them open. I would dare to say that their opinions are not representative of the tribe. It just shows no matter how different people are they are still the same type of societies as a whole. Isn't it a shame that societies as a whole can't evolve? You know that old saying that if we don't learn from our mistakes history is doomed to repeat itself.

[lynnd]

Hi Jack:

I agree with you, troublemakers, particularly those who believe they are justified in their hostilities, can be found all over the world.

I noted you were in Florida going home to Virginia, eh?

My husband (who is from Ireland) and I are also in Florida on the East Coast in Saint Lucie County. It is our hope too to be moving "home" to Virginia. My husband has been there only once and fell in love with it. My mom is from Louisa County and my son is in Richmond at VCU. Stuff keeps happening that puts our plan further off, but it will happen.

I hope you get home soon.

Lynn

[Jack Adkins]

Hi Jack:

I agree with you, troublemakers, particularly those who believe they are justified in their hostilities, can be found all over the world.

I noted you were in Florida going home to Virginia, eh?

My husband (who is from Ireland) and I are also in Florida on the East Coast in Saint Lucie County. It is our hope too to be moving "home" to Virginia. My husband has been there only once and fell in love with it. My mom is from Louisa County and my son is in Richmond at VCU. Stuff keeps happening that puts our plan further off, but it will happen.

I hope you get home soon.

Lynn

I have been gone from "Home" 33 years and we have been trying to get back to VA for 4 years. Finally, there is not enough equity in the house to make it worth suffering Florida anymore. We decided to "dump" the house and go home. Florida is not Florida the southern state anymore. It is now South New York. Be aware that developers are now trying to sell your NC, VA, TN, KY land to northerners who are unhappy with florida now that they have ruined it and they are coming to a development near you. They want to live in your area but not amonst you. They will move into developments with walls and gated communities to keep the Riff Raff (you & me) out. Furthermore, they will demand infrastructure to make their lives easier which wil be paid for by higher taxes for you. Their way of life will come with them and their rude, loud, thieving relatives will follow. And they will infest your rural areas like a plague of locusts and be more than happy to tell you how things were better in (insert your choice of yankee state, town or community here).

Can you tell I am on a rampage here? Another reason I am moving north to the south. If only our ancestors had just put an arrow into everyone who landed on the shore.:rolleyes:

[Jack Adkins]

I just realized I was 'Off Topic".

So, I think the ESDA is a great idea.

[Mousini78]

Jack...we have to deal with the developers here all the time. In fact I just read the Trading Path Newsletter about how the old packmule/wagon trail in our county is getting ready to be gone and developed. Our history is disappearing daily....I see so little preserved. In fact that is one of the gripes I have about the show Extreme Home Makeovers...they tear down instead of remaking or salvaging. I know they do some, but, seems they could do more, especially when trying to be "green".

And I do have to hear from new homeowners(customers) about how much better things were in their community....so go back if it was all that good. Just don't tell me how to live or drive in NC. I like staying at home in the snow....not being a crazy on the road....ok, know I am totally off topic...and finished ranting...at least for the moment.

[yellow woman]

ESDA ????... Thats the topic, but????.... No answer :(] ... That being said. I hate to burst your bubbles but urban sprawl is everywhere. Even out here in the middle of nowhere. Mostly people from the west coast trying to escape the nest they crapped in. And illegals from all over the world.

[Tonio]

Yeah, I hear y'all on the whole Yankee thing lol. I just wanted to say that the group that y'all are planning seems to be one of the best ideas I've ran across in a while. My family is mostly from the Peidmont area of Va and Sc (Orange County, Va; Louisa County, Va; Lancaster County, Sc; and Chestor County, Sc) and we have sooo many stories of Indeginous ancestors in our family. My Great Grandmother was born in Arkansas and my great grandmother said her mother was an "Indian". I'm not too sure exactly which tribe because I never asked her. People like myself with the blood that want to get back into the culture should have a place we can go to without persecution and akward looks. Good idea y'all!:)

[1_optimistic]

Yeah, I hear y'all on the whole Yankee thing lol. I just wanted to say that the group that y'all are planning seems to be one of the best ideas I've ran across in a while. My family is mostly from the Peidmont area of Va and Sc (Orange County, Va; Louisa County, Va; Lancaster County, Sc; and Chestor County, Sc) and we have sooo many stories of Indeginous ancestors in our family. My Great Grandmother was born in Arkansas and my great grandmother said her mother was an "Indian". I'm not too sure exactly which tribe because I never asked her. People like myself with the blood that want to get back into the culture should have a place we can go to without persecution and akward looks. Good idea y'all!:)

I agree!! :D :D :D

[Felicia]

I am glad to see you here. I was born in New Jersey and now live in Virginia, so I can understand about the whole Yankee joke too (smile). I hope you found some family connections here on Saponitown. The information here is inspiring to so many people. I wish you only the best in your endeavors here at Saponitown.

[Tonio]

Thank you. I have found much information here. I like this site a lot because it places much focus on the Siouan tribes. Many Historians have overlooked the Southeasrn Siouan tribes. If I may, I'd like to refer a book. It's called "Indian Slavery and the Rise of the English Empire". It is funny how the stories my surviving G-Grandmother (From Chester, SC) has been telling me is coming into unison with that particular book. Many of the women and children where sold into slavery following the Tuscarora and Yamessee wars. For many decendants it's almost impossible to figure out which tribe we've origionated from because of the evils of the slave trade. This is why I'm a proud supporter of this Association being planed. If there is anything I can do to help this Association get on it's feet, please let me know.

[Tonio]

Oh! It's important to note that not only where the Siouan people enslaved, but many, many Algonquin people where enslaved as well.

[Linda]

There are records I've seen of Indians being enslaved, BUT where were they sold off to? Most of the records I've seen speak of them being sent to the West Indies. It would be hard to keep people enslaved on their own turf. They know how to escape. Even during the Beaver Wars when so many tribes were taking other tribes as captives it was common to haul them a good distance from where they'd come for, and also to trade them to some other tribe so the new captives would have less resentment towards their new tribe and family.

I've also heard of some Indian captives from here being sold in New York City. I've heard of family stories of Indian people in the later ante bellum days being sentenced to bondage on trumped up charges, who couldn't run off because their families were nearby.

Does this book you mention have good sources establishing that Indians who were slaves in the Upper South actually originated in the Upper South? What stories does you great-grandmother tell?

[Tonio]

The book does speak of Indians being sold into the Carribean slave market in large numbers, but the book also says that many (Maybe not the majority, but a significant number) Indians where sold within the 13 colonies (Mainly Virginia, Pennsylvania, and South Carolina). The Tuscarora slaves where removed to Pennsylvania in large numbers, but because the fear of a Tuscarora and Iriqouis uprising they stoped the Tuscarora's from being sold in Pennsylvania or anywhere near the Iriqouis because the two where militarily alighned. The book does have references as to where you can find all of this information (Inside the book).

She really can't tell me which tribe he decended from because he very rarely discused his Indian heritage from my understanding. It's like he wanted to hide it. She (Like myself) is assuming that he was from an Eastern Siouan tribe. Most Cherokee's and larger tribes near upstate SC had rolls and kept their kin close. She only remembers him saying that his people where in (What we know as) South Carolina for a reeeeaaally long time. Even before most colonist got there.

[Junglegeorge]

The book does speak of Indians being sold into the Carribean slave market in large numbers, but the book also says that many (Maybe not the majority, but a significant number) Indians where sold within the 13 colonies (Mainly Virginia, Pennsylvania, and South Carolina). The Tuscarora slaves where removed to Pennsylvania in large numbers, but because the fear of a Tuscarora and Iriqouis uprising they stoped the Tuscarora's from being sold in Pennsylvania or anywhere near the Iriqouis because the two where militarily alighned. The book does have references as to where you can find all of this information (Inside the book).

She really can't tell me which tribe he decended from because he very rarely discused his Indian heritage from my understanding. It's like he wanted to hide it. She (Like myself) is assuming that he was from an Eastern Siouan tribe. Most Cherokee's and larger tribes near upstate SC had rolls and kept their kin close. She only remembers him saying that his people where in (What we know as) South Carolina for a reeeeaaally long time. Even before most colonist got there.

That sounds like an interesting book Tonio. I know I lived in the caribbean for almost 10 years, and it is pretty common knowledge that the slaves there came from both Africa and North America. The British, English, and Spaniards would trade slaves from each other right there in San Juan, PR and in Ponce. So it is easy to see how many eastern natives could have been enslaved and wound up mixing with African origin slaves, and then wound up anywhere from the Caribbean to Mexico to anywhere in Central or South America or even back up into what became US territory. They often used those slaves to gather gold and ship it, and other valuable resources. The spaniards were pretty merciless and tried to work them to death. The spaniards had regular shipping routes throughout all those regions, to bring their loot back to San Juan's protected harbors, to be sent back to Spain, or to pay slave and other types of traders from Europe or Africa. It was along those shipping and trade routes that the pirate activity exploded in popularity.

The Taino tribe in Puerto Rico would often absorb the escaped slaves and even help them escape. It is possible some of them may have pieces of the puzzle if someone asks. I have met their chief, a great guy, he only speaks Spanish but I am sure he would be thrilled to help out anyone who sought info he had access to. They also have access to some of the old records the Spanish kept that might help people in their personal searches for ancestors. The tale I often heard down there was that many of the escaped slaves and Tainos escaped the spaniard armies and slaughter by stowing onboard trader's vessels, or on rafts and canoes they made, and going to live and take refuge with the Seminole in Florida. So maybe they can be of assistance to some too.

[Jeff Beard]

Tonio,
Is your Massey family from South Carolina ? I'm descended from the Massey Family, known to have lived in Lincoln Co. and Gaston co. in N.C., then between 1850-1860 moved to York Co. S.C.

There was a extensive Indian Slave trade that flourished in the Carolinas that had a devastating impact on Native tribal groups, many Indians were taken captive and sold in the Slave markets in Europe, Charleston, S.C., and sold in the West Indies..
we know that Squanto, Manteo, and Wanchese are just a few natives seized sold into slavery in Europe and made their way back to their tribal homelands.
Also I'm sure we all remember reading about the Salem witch trials, well what many people don't realize is that Tituba was a Carib Indian, as was her husband Indian John, and their daughter Violet, they were enslaved and brought to the Massachusetts Colony from Barbados by their owners...

I remember reading that many tribal groups in South Carolina once they were surrounded by white neighbors they became known as settlement indians, and then it became required that they purchase certificates that proclaimed them to be Indians, and if they did not purchase the certificates they pretty much lost their status as indians, and became taxables, Mulattos, or Free persons of Color..
generally If a Reservation was established for a tribal group they were appointed overseers, who really profited from the sale of timber or land from the reservation, and suddenly the Indians were not Indians anymore but negroes which often enabled the oveeerseers to sell the reservation land, so it was a trend that once a tribal group became landless or settled near white settlements, or granted a small reservation tract and started to become christianized, adopt English names etc..they lost their identity as indian People

[Tonio]

Yeah, my family is from the Catawba river area. This is my mothers fathers side. They are from Lancaster, South Carolina and have lived there since the 1820's (That's what I'm assuming since the US census can't go back any further than the 1800's). They may have lived in that area longer than the 1800's, but my grandfathers, mothers side of the family is origionally from North Carolina (Near present day Charlotte and the Catawba river). They owned (If I'm not mistaken) 15 acres of land in upstate SC (Near the Catawba river). They where listed as "Free persons of Color" or Black. My grandfather showed us a potrait of his mother and she looks exactly like a Native American, but she was listed on the census as Black. He said she was a Cherokee. My grandfathers-grandfather was listed on the census as "Mulatto".

[beeleaf]

Chester, SC

Hey Tonio.

Think my folks were married in Chester. Under aged Virginians would go down there to get hitched.

Where are your Kings and Cranks from?

[Tonio]

The Cranks are from my fathers side. They are from Chestor South Carolina and if I'm not mistaken so are the Kings. My surviving G-Grandmother said that he was a "mixed Indian".

[Tonio]

My Virginia ancestors surnames (So far) are:

Christian; Waller; Thompson; and Jefferson. They're from Orange (Gordonsville) and Louisa (Green Springs) Counties in Virginia.

[Felicia]

JungleGeorge - My parents know some of the Walker family, can you give me the counties/towns or surnames and I will ask them to provide me with any information that they have?

[Felicia]

Tonio - My grandmother told us that her grandmother (who remembered Abe Lincoln) said that they had to birth their babies by the Roanoke River for the fear of enslavement, so they had to hide. This correlates with so many stories that you hear about on Saponitown and that are being collaborated through other relatives/families.

[beeleaf]

Hey Tonio,

Now that I asked that, have realized I don't even know where my Kings and Cronks came from. Probably some some Dutch princess or something.
hehehe

[whitehawk]

:) Hey Everyone, Is there any new updates on the ESDA? Whitehawk

[Tonio]

Not that I've

[Three Crows]

Can't hurt Linda. Sounds like there is plenty of support.