"Popularity" of Western Blackfoot ? [Archive]

itconani

02-24-2003, 01:20 AM

i think there is an assumption that was made when i brought this topic up originally. 1) that the source for the content was based on popular venues like the wild west shows, and that b/c of wild west shows "blackfoot" became popular. I would mention that "cherokee" is also THE most popular designation for ID and was not apart of the Wild West Circuit.
Ill restate the idea again, but it is just an idea.

At a cetain point in the mid 1800's icons began to emmerge about the "wild west" and the frontier cultural myths/icons began to be replaced. IE: Kit Carson takes the place of Daniel Boone and son on. during this time and forward, publications concerning the west, as well as exhibitions like Buffalo Bill's "Wild West", and collections from indian country tour America and europe. Popular names emerge - such as Kit Carson, Buffalo Bill, and Wild Bill as indian fighters. similiar enigmas exist concerning bank robbers like billy the kid and other opposing forces like wyatt earp.
Popular culture embraces these names and romantic ideas. the names of people, tribes, and places (ie: Wild Bill, Sioux, OK Corral) have continued into the 20th century. Several venues were very popular, among them was the wild west shows; others included exhibits at the Smithsonian by George Catlin, and collections like those of Peabody family. Some of those popular names become houshold words, where previously they have been marginal. Touring shows make material more available, as do publications like Harpers Weekly.

My point was that the Blackfoot (or Feet) become name among household names for indian tribes because of exposure. we surely do not hear "peigan" or "blood" as the cultural markers we have been discussing or "sissapaha" as
the tribal place of an indian ancestor. Nor do we hear of other obscure names like Youghtanund or Miami for that matter. Essentially we hear names like "blackfoot" because of many elements. For reference, Check out Harpers Weekly for stories illustrated by Frederick Remington or Charles Russell, both of whom spent time amongst Blackfoot in the 1880's.

The point to make and the data to obtain, is a reference that is as widespread as this type of material prior to this period. Hence the scanty existance of Blackfoot town in MD, "blackfoot came from this word in this language", and this band of rogue Seneca was known as the "blackfoot", etc
is hard to connect with the huge existance of "blackfoot" as a designation as tribal origin.

Once again, I make the point to say that while i believe "blackfoot" is an ID for further investigation of Multi racial populations, i do not believe it has been passed down as a surviving tribal ID in most cases. Most people will not agree on this forum, but im speaking from an academic / historical perspective on this issue. "blackfoot" has grown into its own identification, but is vague and without historical connections in most cases. Ill be very pleased i f a solid smoking gun arrives. until then, i stand by the idea that there are plenty of adequate available tribal originations that have good historical availablity for descendancy that are being overlooked because of the "blackfoot" matra. The same holds for "cherokee". I would say that they are popular in Americana for people of many different backgrounds to latch onto in the past 150 years as a passed down source from indian relations. at some point tribal consciousness was lost and a new ID becomes the result. We have seen it too many times in the past not to recognize this because of oral history alone. Oral history is extremely valuable, and in connection with migration patterns, land records, census data, historical accounts, and period maps a broader picture can be painted. Unfortunately for the "blackfoot" material, mostly what has come to light from a very recent past is only the oral history - which by its nature is in a state of flux.

Linda

02-24-2003, 10:14 AM

I had hoped that the data I've collected for the past two years, showing how extremely high the coincidence of Blackfoot ID surnames with names that occur in the research of southeastern Indian families, particularly those suspected to be Eastern Siouan, would have demonstrated that this is not something "vague and without historical connections."

What's particularly baffling is how frequently you find this ID in people who were dispersed well outside of the southeast BEFORE it became a household word, who nonetheless trace back to the southeast. We can find hundreds in Ohio and thousands in Missouri, from historically discrete communities, both of which are well documented genealogically to the Piedmont Eastern Siouan, but who left the southeast LONG before the period you speak of. How can that be explained? Doesn't that make it a logical impossibility to dismiss this connection?

You may be misled about how ubiquitous this ID is because you've lived in the southeast yourself. In other parts of the country, it's not a common ID. I lived a long time in the midwest and the west coast, and never heard it. I had often heard people identifying themselves as Cherokee, though, so it's not like people werent' talking about the subject.

Did you see the data I came up with for a sample period, of the people who've contacted me with the ID? It's on this thread.

http://www.saponitown.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=579

vance hawkins

02-24-2003, 05:23 PM

statistical data from census records (similar to what I proposed --somewhere else on this forum -- recently) could be collected that would greatly help to settle this . . . it could be done.

Linda

02-24-2003, 09:09 PM

Itconani, I'd love to put those emails onto a CD and have you look at them. I think if you could see what I have been seeing you wouldn't think that it was vague or random.

Vance, I'm thinking that the best "control group" would simply be a list of common American surnames. I know you are thinking about sampling the surnames of some VA counties, but I can't get a handle on that. We need to sample the common English surnames from those areas (all over half the country) where these families were living since the late 19th century when the word Blackfoot would have become commonplace. I would think that would just be the general list of surnames common in America at that time, wherever the word "Blackfoot" would have been common knowledge.

If this were simply an identification that sprang up in response to the popularity of the word, you would logically expect a completely random collection of family surnames. If you see clustering of names that relates to a known tribal descent, it would logically seem to necessitate a connection. Wouldn't it? How else could that logically be explained?

itconani

02-24-2003, 11:19 PM

Hey all -
Linda first let me say i think your work has led much creadance to the blackfoot ID. Second i think maybe we are saying the same thing in a different way. let me see if i can hit your points so that we can be in agreeance.

a) "high the coincidence of Blackfoot ID surnames with names that occur in the research of southeastern Indian families, particularly those suspected to be Eastern Siouan, would have demonstrated that this is not something "vague and without historical connections."

a1) Indeed, i think the important material here is the connection of surnames, identification to Eastern Sioun and to the southeast - not blackefeet. I think blackfoot is a cultural marker, like cherokee, black dutch, tuckahoe, etc. The geographical origin is the key, an area devoid of some important tribal representation.

b) "you find this ID in people who were dispersed well outside of the southeast BEFORE it became a household word, who nonetheless trace back to the southeast. We can find hundreds in Ohio and thousands in Missouri, from historically discrete communities, both of which are well documented genealogically to the Piedmont Eastern Siouan, but who left the southeast LONG before the period you speak of."

b1) correct again, the ID is available to people who have dispersed, well before the mid to late 1800's. all with available surnames that pool to eastern triracial groups. The dispersal and the Blackfoot ID are not rooted together. one does not begat the other. the groups disperse whether or not they ID themselves as Blackfoot now. They disperse earlier than the term exists. ("BEFORE" as stated above, thats my point) the groups ID themselves as SAponi, Blackfoot, Cherokee, ETC now - however, concerning blackfoot - we have no evidence that "blackfoot" was used during the dispersal time. Blakfoot ID helps us look at these groups as possible origins in the south, and to look at eastern Sioun - but not to identify them as "blackfeet". No more than if we began using an "eastern or western" Portuguese to describe a missing tribal people. the part that is missing is not the Portuguese, but rather who these people ID'd as Portuguese truly are.

c) "You may be misled about how ubiquitous this ID is because you've lived in the southeast yourself. In other parts of the country, it's not a common ID. I lived a long time in the midwest and the west coast, and never heard it. I had often heard people identifying themselves as Cherokee, though, so it's not like people werent' talking about the subject"

c1) I know we disagree on this subject because most of IDs from outside of the South and northeast are "white". However, my own experience has been a huge "black" presecence in the blackfoot ID in the deepsouth and inner city north; but ironically not on this forum - that may be due to other unfortunate social conditions having little to do with the ID existing in those areas. I would also say in the same vain, that outside of those areas there is not a large "black" population to frequent the "black"foot ID on that basis alone. I would assume the term to be more rare - because it is my belief that there are some interesting "cherokee / blackfoot" divisions within modern races.

In the end, im looking for the historical reference to "blackfoot" as a place and a group that would would be the birthplace of these exodus peoples of the south. i dont think there is one, because it did not exist historically. hitorically these groups may have come from other groups, as with tutelo or saponi - im comfortable with that. "Blackfoot" exists later as a familial memory of once belonging to a tribal designation. if we can find more than peoples memories extending into the 1700's, we'll be in business? i mean there are "some" references to a "blackfoot ID" here and there from manuscripts, maps, etc - but they have very little connection to one another, and even less continuity. we have more of a "blackfoot consciouness" now than we do historically. the family histories are strong connections to one another, the paths lead to the South from blackfoot ID's, but they dont start there as blackfoots.

vance hawkins

02-27-2003, 04:38 PM

Well Linda, I'm not gonna beat a tired horse into the ground. One could "prove 90 or 95 percent probability that the surname designations are not random. But that point appears to be conceded anyhow it seems.

Itconani, is there some way, some "hypothesis", that could be drawn up, some question to ask, that Linda could test somehow?

Would the same surnames appear for Saponi as for other tribes in Va, NC, Md, or other Atlantic Coast states? Many of these tribal members were sold into slavery weren't they, and they might have escaped and after a generation or two lost any tribal distinction other than "Tuckahoe", or "Blackfoot" or whatever. Itconani, is this what you are saying?

Thank you for allowing me to participate in these questions.

vance

Linda

02-27-2003, 07:33 PM

I didn't follow some of what you were saying, Itconani. Let me ask some questions.

a1) What did you mean by "The geographical origin is the key, an area devoid of some important tribal representation."

b1) I think there is some evidence that the name predates the dispersal. Just as there is a band of western Sioux who called themselves Blackfoot, there is no reason to dismiss the theory that a band of eastern Sioux had that name. Especially since the word "Sissipaha" may well translate to that. BTW, I think I've found out more on what that may mean. In Lakota, the word "he" (with a gutteral 'h' sound) means mountain. If you pass through the town of Saxapahaw, it's damn near mountainous. There's no record of what the word mountain was in Tutelo, but if it is the same as Lakota, as most basic words like this are, then the Tutelo for saying blackfoot mountain would be "Issi asepa he." Also, I think if you saw the context of some of these family reports, they are clearly conveying this as a very old name, as in "great grandma's great grandma told her . . ."

I don't expect anybody to concede that I've "proven" anything conclusively at this point. But I do expect that the theory not be dismissed.

c1) Actually, "most of IDs from outside of the South and northeast are white" isn't what I've seen. My impression is that half the people I've come across are white, half black, but this is not a subject that comes up most of the time in the context of the emails I'm sent. Maybe ten percent of the time people's present racial categorization comes up, then it's an even split racially, I would say, no matter what part of the country they're in. Also, let me clarify that these are not forum people I'm talking about. Few of them are present here. They are people who have privately emailed me because they came across the website and the Blackfoot article I wrote.

In any case, the name/migration patterns remain the same, whether people are presently identified as white or black. When it was "Blackfoot Town, MD week" and I heard from three different people out of the blue in the same week (actually four families were involved since my own family's in that mix) who were in that vicinity, two ladies had very similar stories in their families about "escaping" to there. One was black identified now, the other's presently a white Arizonan. The black lady's family said they "escaped to Blackfoot Town," The white lady's family said they "escaped from Virginia."

I think it's hard to dismiss the implications of three separate bits of evidence agreeing, 1) Blackfoot ID, 2) origins from the historic "Blackfoot Town" and 3) the word "escape" in family legends on the subject. What are the probabilities that this kind of coincidence would be occurring randomly? And in this context, since Dagsbury, DE was known as Blackfoot Town, MD from the 1740s to 1780s, we do have it documented that the name does not predate the dispersal. http://www.sussexcountyonline.com/towns/dagsboro.html

vance hawkins

02-28-2003, 08:38 AM

Well, to do a statistical analysis, you still need a control sample. If you can provide a random sample -- taken from where ever, I can do the probability and statistical analysis with those lists of surnames. I'll leave points of origin of the surnames to the experts and stick to the mathematics. :) And Linda, I have an e-mail address (finally) where there is no limit to what I can receive at vhawkins@pacer.com.

vance

vance hawkins

02-28-2003, 09:17 AM

I just responded without thinking -- I was wrong -- you can just make an educated guess if nobody challenges it or if it is reasonable, I suppose.

prob of Blackfoot id -- guess 1 in a million
prob of origin in Blackfoot Town -- guess 1 in a million
probability of "escape" in family story -- guess 1 in a thousand

thats (1/1000000)*(1/1000000)*1/1000), or 1 chance in 1000000000000000 of these being "random coincidences. Now I'm guessing on the value of all three variables. I can say, as a mathematician, these are not random occurrances -- IF all information provided in the e-mails to you are true.

The problem I see is proving Blackfoot means Saponi, and not some other group. But you've shown this in name origins, et cetera. However many groups may have fled to "Blackfoot Town", not just Saponi.

Maybe "Blackfoot" was a generic term describing a method of farming, such as burn and slash before planting, and all Indian peoples on the East Coast used this method, perhaps, and early Caucasian settlers sometimes referred to these people -- ALL INDIAN peoples, as "Blackfoot" because they'd been walkin on ashes. But since it was a slang word and not a reference to any particular tribe, it never was used in documentation or records kept of these people. So there are still other explanations that have not been eliminated. Maybe they can be eliminated, and maybe you are right.

Were the Saponi known to be in the state of Delaware during the time that Blackfoot Town was founded?

vance

Linda

02-28-2003, 11:04 AM

Chief Patterson of the Lewiston Tuscarora said that when they migrated north they passed through Maryland. Present Dagsbury, formerly Blackfoot Town, was in Maryland at that time, before the border was redrawn. This is in the western edge of the state, not too distant from present I81, which from what I've heard follows the old north/south path at that point. It's also been my understanding that the "Tuscarora Path" is also what other tribes used to make that journey.

Forest

02-28-2003, 09:39 PM

Linda,
Where is this Dagsbury town supposed to be in Delaware? The nearest I know of to it is Dagsboro, Delaware, in southern Sussex County, not too far from the coast. It was historically Algonquin territory (Nanticoke, Assateague, etc). This is no where near I-81 in the western part of the state of Maryland. Is there also a Dagsbury Maryland? For the Tuscarora to move north it would have been possible that they passed along that central Virginia route, or that they went by water up the Chesapeake and thence into Pennsylvania. I have never heard or read any account of them passing up the DelMarVa Penninsula, so another route would seem likely.

vance hawkins

03-01-2003, 05:44 AM

If it is proven that the Blackfoot ID existed before the final diaspora c. 1800 (if this is correct) then I see the problem now as "were all East Coast surviving Indians simply called "Blackfoot" or was this a term used only by Saponi/Tutelo?

By comparing known surnames of each Va/NC/Md/Pa/WVa/ and other tribe possible of making the claim of bein the Eastern Blackfoot with those of your research of the surnames you've collected of people who have a historic family story of a claim of Blackfoot ancestry, you could make a stronger claim that these Blackfoot people were Saponi, and not from some other nation or nations. If about 50 percent of the folks have Saponi surnames, you might find the other 50 percent are Pamunkey, Tuscarora, Catawba, Delaware, ec cetera -- or maybe not. But maybe it was a mixed group of refugees.

Maybe you've already done this tho. If so, please forgive me -- sometimes I'm slow to catch things . . . :)

vance hawkins

Bess

03-01-2003, 10:21 PM

Linda's overall point is correct on Blackfoot Town in Delaware. However, the exact location is off by many miles. Blackfoot Town/Dagsboro is locate about 100 miles directly east and slightly south from the point she mentioned in western Maryland. Blackfoot Town sits on the headwaters of "Indian River". This river and the area around it is located in what was formerly Somerset and Worcester counties, MD, but with changes in the state boundaries about 1763, it is located in what is today Sussex County, Delaware. One needs to get a map of Delaware and focus on the southeast coast along the Atlantic Ocean. Indian River dominates the geography of Sussex county. Its headwaters are inland about 20 miles in the swampy marshes near the MD border, and it flows from west to east and empties into the Atlantic Ocean. Dagsboro sets on a creek flowing into Indian River. It is a very remote area, even today, and the largest town near Dagsboro/Blackfoot Town is Georgetown.

Saponi/ Tutelos were indeed located near Dagsboro/ Blackfoot Town prior to 1747. The writings of J. Thomas Scharf, the noted Historian of Delaware,(1.) places the Saponi/Tutelo amongst other tribes inhabiting the southern part of Delaware (most likely Sussex county) in the 1700s. Here is what Scarf says in 1880:

"The ...Scackamaxons, Tutelos, Nanticokes and many others occupied the lower country toward the coast, upon the Delaware and its affuents."(2.) We don't know exactly how this group of Saponi/Tutelo ended up in this area, but the solution of that problem can be taken up at another time. The main point is that the Tutelo according to Scharf were in lower Delaware at an early date.
Another citation places Saponi/Tutelo in the vicinity of the South Delaware in 1742. Tutelos (recorded as Totra) residing at Conoy town, Lancaster county, PA, along with Seneca, Shawnee, and Nanticoke, were a part of a famous plot for an Indian uprising in lower Delaware, at the portage of the Indian River area and the Pokomoke river on the MD/DE border. The name of the place was Winnasoccum Apparently, groups of Indians at Conoy town, including the Tutelo, did travel to the MD/DE border. Here they met some of the local Nanticokes and "Indian River Indians" to put the plan into action. Details on this plot are recorded in the Maryland Colonial records. Here is what is said about these events in testimony on June 30, 1742:

"Letter No. 78:
Maryland ss | Dochester Co. | The Examination of Jacob Pattasahook, one of Nanticoke Indians taken before me one of his Lordships Justices of the peace for the County aforesaid saith about a month ago this Examinant was at Coney Town on Susquehana River and was told by the Indians of said Town that the Senaca and Totra Indians in Conjunction and by the advice of the french had agreed to Cut of the English Inhabitants in Pensylvania Maryland and other adjacent parts of this Continent and the Indians in Somersett and Dorsett County and to that End the Senaca Indians were soon to go to Philadelphia to Dispose of some part of the Lands for Arms and Ammunition and haveing so done the Senaca, Totra, and other Indians were in roasten Ear and Apple time to fall upon the Back Inhabitants and at the Same time the french who was to come by Sea, were to Land on the Sea bond side of Somersett County in order to meet the said Indians, and further this Examinat Saith not, his June the 30th 1742 Jacob [c Pattasahook Certified by Henry Trippe marke"
This reference can be found at this address online:http://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/megafile/msa/speccol/sc2900/sc2908/000001/000042/ html/am42--654.html

After the plot was foiled most likely some of the Tutelo stayed on in the area.
So by solid historical accounts, around 1742, Saponi/ Tutelo Indians were near the region of what later became known as Blackfoot Town. The multi tribal population of this area decreased over time but a remnant survives to today. It is established as the Indian River Hundred Nanticoke organization and has an office and museum in the town of Millsboro, which is a few miles form Dagsboro

In the 1930s and 1940s, several government ethnologists visited the Indian River Nanticoke population living near Blackfoot Town. C.A. Weslager, the noted researcher on the Lenni- Lenape and Nanticoke Indians interviewed a Joshua Hitchens on Oct. 25, 1941. When asked about his genealogy, Hitchens said his father's family "were members of the Blackfoot Tribe."(3.) Weslager did not endorse this statement of tribal affiliation nor did he try to openly attack it. Instead, he tried to claim that the Blackfoot tribe identification, in question, resulted from Blackfoot Town being a place name. Of course it is ludicrous to claim that the Blackfoot tribe spoken of by Hitchens has nothing to do with Indians, given that Blackfoot Town sat on Indian River. Indian River has been known by this name since 1640 in court records of Worcester County, Maryland, and later in Sussex County, Delaware. "Indian River Indians" who in fact were an amalgamation of the Nantcoke, Assateague, Saponi/Tutelo and others, appear in county documents and Maryland colonial records as early as 1700. Pulling this all together, what makes sense is to recognize that
1. The Saponi/Tutelo Indians who lived about Indian River were responsible for name "Blackfoot Indians" mentioned by Hitchens.
2. Because they lived there, the "Blackfoot Indians" gave their name to an Indian town located along Pepper creek, a tributary of Indian River, which later became known as Blackfoot Town. Blackfoot Town is the result of contact with the Blackfoot Indians not vice verse.

Linda, despite the error in location, your main point on timing is absolutely correct. The Blackfoot Indians living at Blackfoot Town/Dagsboro, DE, in 1747 predate, come before, the fictional diffusion of the so-called Western Blackfoot "ID" ("idea"?) into the Southeast during the 1880s. Also, this group of Saponi Blackfoot Indians (1747) predate the first appearance of Sihasapa Lakota Blackfoot in European and American records, which did not occur until about 1851. Prior to that, the precursors of the Sihasapa are known to us only by the names of leading families which at that time are living within other groups, i.e., with the Yanctonies..
The Blackfoot represented by the Saponi and the Sissipahaw appear in records way before the western Blackfoot, the Sisksika and the Sihassapa Lakota. Your observation that the Eastern Blackfoot is older than those in the west is supported by facts. All this points to the reality that the Eastern Blackfoot identity developed on a local basis in the Southeast and was not imported. True there were some cases of actual migrations of Sihassapa individuals and families into the Southeast during the 19th century. But they can be fairly recognized through genealogy research and are extremely small in number. Their presence cannot account for the wide spread existence of the Blackfoot ID in the Southeast.
Bess Veney

1. J. Thomas Scharf History of Delaware 1609-1888, L.J. Richards & Co. (1888) vol. 2, 1888, p.20

2. Ibid Scharf:20

3. Weslager,, C. A., The Nanticoke Indians— Past and Present, University of Delaware Press, Newark, p.198.

Bess

03-01-2003, 10:52 PM

I hope this link works for the Maryland archives:

http://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/megafile/msa/speccol/sc2900/sc2908/000001/000042/html/am42--654.html

Linda

03-02-2003, 01:30 AM

Bless you, Bess, I had heard there was more documentation about this, and here you are with it!

Perhaps this trouble brewing that's mentioned in the records has something to do with the trouble in the family histories. I'll need to track down the black lady's emails, but I remember a sense that there had been trouble people were huddling from.

I'll see more later. I've been stranded for a day and a half without internet and just got it running at 1 AM. Got to get to bed. Glad I looked at this thread.

vance hawkins

03-02-2003, 09:21 AM

Bess, your information is always an inspiration. You said --

"Indian River Indians" who in fact were an amalgamation of the Nantcoke, Assateague, Saponi/Tutelo and others, appear in county documents and Maryland colonial records as early as 1700.

I have a couple of questions.

1. So are the "Blackfoot" then a group of tribes that were lumped together and not the Saponi/Tutalo alone?

2. Did this word "Blackfoot" originate as English translation of "Saponi" or was it as a result of something else. I did see a reference where someone said it was because of a method of farming.

3. How do you know "Totra" means "Tutelo"?

Also I have a couple of observations about my "Richey" genealogy searches. I found Southern Richeys and Northern Richeys and still don't know which ones we came from. I first find a record of my ancestors on 1840 census records in Gibson County, Indiana that say a John Richey gave Virginia as his birthplace in 1797. But the northern "Richeys" I've found on census records were from Md & Pa & I never checked Delaware, it bein a little state with just 2 or 4 counties it just didn't occur to me. I also saw some further North but I didn't think they migt be mine -- but I have wondered if the Pa & Md Richeys camer to Va. Southern Richeys were in NC and Sc originally.

Second observation -- I ran across other Richey surnamed folks who did say they heard their ancestors were "Tuckahoe" indians and others have said theirs were "Blackfoot" Indians. I found about 4 or 5 families of Richeys claimin each category online. These people had Richey ancestors in Kentucky, Pa & Va neighboring places, and not Indiana where mine went. I still don' knnow which group of Richeys we came from, but I am thinkin now of checkin' out Delaware and that maybe mine were the northern group.

I still feel like an outsider doin a research seekin my ancestry and still can't claim my ancestors were "blackfoot" or Saponi. But it is curiouser and curiouser, and I feel "a little" more like an "insider since that reference to that Indiana Blackfoot Church reference in a county neighboring Gibson.

God bless yall I am learnin a lot here. A lot more than I expected.

vance hawkins

vance hawkins

03-02-2003, 09:28 AM

Linda I used to be able to edit my posts before changinig formats, but since that time I can't, so you get all the misspelled words and blunders. Hope it is still comprehensible . . . :)

vance hawkins

03-03-2003, 08:18 AM

With utmost respect to the state of Delaware and admitting that the best gifts always come in small packages, but Delaware is a little state and anywhere in it can't be very far from Indian River can it? So even if Blackfoot Town was on the other side of the state from Indian River it would still not be far away would it?

vance

Bess

03-03-2003, 04:10 PM

Vance,
1. The term Indian River Indians described a multi tribal group, of mainly Algonkian speaking peoples, who lived along Indian River from 1700 onward. The grouping consisted mainly of Assateago, Delaware, Nanticoke and others. Also in the area were the Tutelo. According to oral history of descendants in this area, later on, some Cherokee and Choctaw came among the Indian River Indians. As a group I do not consider the Indian River Indians as the Blackfoot, only the Tutelo who were among them represent the Blackfoot.

2. Here is an abstract of my views on the terms you asked about. I will give a more developed explanation at a later date.
Saponi and Sissipahaw are siouan native American names. When their meanings are translated into English, they both express the word, Blackfoot. Saponi is an extreme abbreviation of that name, but has the same content as Sissapahaw. The Saponi Nation came into being as a confederation of Eastern Siouan speaking tribes at Ft Christanna, VA in early 1700s. The member units of the confederation were the Saponi tribe, Tutelo, Meioponsky , Occaneechi, Stegaraki, Monacan, It is also possible that the Sissipahaw was among them. Therefore, at this point in time, I look upon the Sissipahaw tribe as a subordinate branch of the Saponi nation.
In the records of Europeans outside of Va in the 17,18 an 19 century the word Tutelo was used as an equivalent for the Saponi in two ways: in a specific tribal identification, or generally pertaining to Siouan peoples of the South East living between at the foot of the mountains, between the Roanoke and the Potomic rivers. Sometime they included the Catawba under the term Tutelo.
3. Totra is recognized by researchers as a variation of the word Tutelo. See Claude E. Schaeffer's, Introduction to: Frank G. Speck, The Tutelo Spirit Adoption Ceremony.., Pennsylvania Historical Commission, Harrisburg, (1942) page xii, Here is what is said:

"An interesting reference to the Tutelo of this period has been called to my attention by William B. Marye (Maryland Archives, XLII, 654-55). From the examination of a Nanticoke Indian in 1742, it was learned that the natives of Conoy town on the lower Susquehanna were cognizant of a plot among the Seneca and the "Totra" Indians to attack, with French support, the frontier settlements in Pennsylvania and Maryland...". This is not only so you will have to get a paper copy for review.

4. You are definitely a part of the family! You should drop the speculation---Cousin!
I can't suggest any new strategy for researching your Richeys. I only have a few small points. I would try to deepen the research in Gibson county, IN, since certain basic facts are known there about your ancestor. I would try to build on and expand those facts. That means, I would try to locate precisely where he lived in Gibson by getting a copy of deeds or other land records that can tell you who his neighbor were and the names of possible relatives. As well, I would search the estate records. If you are successful with these basis record groups, then the results may give you a key to which state to look into prior to Indiana--??VA, PA, MD, KY etc. You are in a favorable situation in Gibson, because several different trails of "Blackfoot" are in that area in the 19 century: documents show that
1. There were Tutelos at Prophet's town in 1809, about 100 miles upriver on the Wabash
2. That some VA/NC mixed Saponi peoples come into Gibson after 1830. Some of these people merged with others from Tenn. to establish a mixed settlement called "Lyles Station" (1860s) Which was about 5 mile west of Princeton. Here you have the surname Chavis etc. Today several people from Gibson and Pike claim Blackfoot ancestry in their families.
3. That a church named Blackfoot is close by

Also, I just recently found a reference that suggest that Western Dakotas were on the upper Wabash after the 1812 war.

So, it is theoretically possible your ancestor may have had contact (accidental or by design) with one of these lines. Only a more thorough examination of the records and oral history can tell for sure.
Now, I have a few questions. What were the various spellings of your ggfather, given name - Hoten Richey? Was it ever written Powhatan? Or Hottan.or Hoton, etc?. Is Hoten a common name in your family. How have you ancestors explained the name Hoten? What region or county did the Richeys come from in Kentucky? Was the Census your referred to above for 1840 or 1850? I notice a lot of Richeys living just across the Wabash river in Wabash and Richland counties, Illinois. Have you looked there?

Bess Veney

itconani

03-04-2003, 02:24 AM

wow.
Alot of info to digest and make sense of.
Maybe ill looka this again soon, to make more sense of it all.
a few notes on the ton of data above:
forgive me if i just cut and paste:

<a1) What did you mean by "The geographical origin is the key, an area devoid of some important tribal representation.">

Geographical origin from the south is the key to the blackfoot (ID = identification), which is devoid of alot of tribal representation of the historic groups who occupied the vast area. in virginia for instance, there were about 32 groups under powhatan, now there are 7 recognized as being extant (however there are several indian descent families who are not organized and therefore not recognized as being a tribal representation). Additionally, The mass area west of the piedmont into W. virginia is often referred to as "poorly known". Obviously people lived here, but records of their organization are scant. the same goes for most of NC - small vestiges of many tribal entities.

<I think there is some evidence that the name predates the dispersal>

I agree, there is some material with blackfoot docs that predate the late 1800s, however there is not a designation for the "blackfoot" as a larger group (ie: the Powhatan, the Saponi, the Monancan etc). If the Blackfoot in MD are Tutelo in origin - this is a wonderful addition to our search. However, we once again need to tread carefully. The "mass" recognition of Blackfoot ancestory may only have be a very small root at this locale.

<Their presence (western Sioun) cannot account for the wide spread existence of the Blackfoot ID in the Southeast.>

Indeed. I would also argue that neither can one remote town in MD.
As stated before, the western indian presence here is nill and not the root of this material. I would also add that the popularity of western icons is not the root either, but an additive.

We have Sappony in the same location as a blackfoot town.
the references cited make many note to Conoys, Tutero, Seneca etc in the time of mid 1700's. When does the Blackfoot Town appear first as a place name?

<<Did this word "Blackfoot" originate as English translation of "Saponi" or was it as a result of something else. I did see a reference where someone said it was because of a method of farming. >>

This is a very good point, that has come up before. I think this town in DE / MD is one of the best sources to come to light yet. Especially the reference by the elderly gentlman recorded by the ethnographer in the 1940's. However, how do we get Blackfoot? We all know the "sapa / black" business. It is interesting that none(?) of the Tutelos descendants at Six nations or Tuscarora have an oral history of this term - or records of this designation for the Tutelo. Additionally, it is interesting that the Sappony in person co. and saponi in Halifax do not have this reference or oral history. Only the people who are dispersed from their tribal homelands. What does that mean?

How do the E. Blackfoot come to be a tribal identity? Usually it works the other way. Lots of historic references (because of interaction) to eastern indian groups who are small now and not much heard of through the late 1800s on. How do we end up with more queries now and oral history now and such a huge migration to present day locations of all these people who ID themselves as blackfoot. Why arent they Conoys or Massawomacks?
Im still havin a hard time with the translation on Sissapaha and all to present day memory of blackfoot. If we were to believe Specks investigations through the eastern seaboard, they'd be the only indians who knew who they were at the turn of century. (of course some new vaguely, but most deferred to his identification, along with others like Mooney.) If this is the case, The indians in NC would all be named for their counties, and the Upper Mattaponi would be still the Adamstown indians. If the translation biz was on the go, i wished someone would have shown more interest and recorded the rest of the language (like the bible).

<<1. The Saponi/Tutelo Indians who lived about Indian River were responsible for name "Blackfoot Indians" mentioned by Hitchens.
2. Because they lived there, the "Blackfoot Indians" gave their name to an Indian town located along Pepper creek, a tributary of Indian River, which later became known as Blackfoot Town. Blackfoot Town is the result of contact with the Blackfoot Indians not vice verse.>>

Im just gonna be the devils advocate. I always think we need more indians.
Why were just the Tutelo responsible for the name? what about the seneca (a previous tribal reference to blackfeet on this board) or the Nanticokes living there? what about the other indians represented? Hitchens mentions the report of the informant. does the informant trace his descendancy to the town and/or later documentation of a tribe? (like these folks here are Powhatan, but actually they are Wiccomomicos, to be exact - per the dept. of ethnology) Did the indians name their town, or did the Europeans? that may be important to uncover - since there are no references to the "tribe" of the blackfeet in the historical documents prior to (???) when the town recieves its name. We know the tutelos are there. we know the senecas, the indian river groups, the nanticokes etc, are there. when do we know the "blackfeet" are there. Or do the blackfeet never arrive as a identity group - only the town of blackfoot. once again, how does and when does it get its name? it sure would be convienent if we had more blackfeet names in VA and NC.

As a parting shot, let me just say that i am throughly impressed by all of the hard work that goes into this board. you all are some super people. Also, I d like to make sure that everyone knows im not trying to disprove anyones claim to ancestory - i believe "blackfoot" to be an underesearched cultural marker for southeastern indian descendancy. I just like to challenge broad concepts with a historical and cultural background. Hey just for fun, anyone ever hear of any references to "Rockahoc"?

vance hawkins

03-04-2003, 07:36 AM

Bess,

thanks. as for the name "Hoten" Richey -- it was the name given to my great grandpa as a middle name -- Jeffrey Hoten Richey (1852-1926) and also his youngest son, Hoten Richey (b. 1890s? in IT Chickasaw Nation - d. 1960s? near Carnegie, Ok exact years not memorized, but I remember the decades). So it was a family name for 2 generations. So no, I've never seen it spelled or pronounced any other way. Wish I could say "yes" to that but I can't.

A man born in 1819 whose wife's maiden name was Wayland (Waylands were iin Arkansas very early, and came there from NC/SC to Va to Ar) about 1800 -- Jeffs mother was born in Arkansas. Maybe the Waylands had something to dowith that name choice.

According to grandma's (Loney Richey Hawkins, 1883-1963) birth certificate, it states her father Jeffrey H. Richey was born in Powhattan (sp?), Arkansas. According to census records, Jeffrey's father (Joseph E. Richey 1819-1852) was born in Gibson County, Indiana. Joseph's father was John Richey, according to census records was b. 1797 moved to Indiana before 1817 when he is recorded as marrying Mary (Polly) Wood in Indiana in "Early Indiana Marriages". You are right -- he was probably a child when he moved to Indiana so I need to find his parents on census records of 1810 as he's not livin with them in 1820.

They left Indiana -- we know the year -- in 1846. As I said they arrived there sometime between 1797 and 1817. My best evidence we are Indian are photographs of our family. Look at us and you know, but records are sparse.

vance

itconani

03-05-2003, 12:31 AM

Vance - you havin problem editting too?
anyway, sorry for the space - but for whatever reason my previous post lost its context of quotes. i'm trying again because i cant edit!(?)

itconani said:

wow.
Alot of info to digest and make sense of.
Maybe ill looka this again soon, to make more sense of it all.
a few notes on the ton of data above:
forgive me if i just cut and paste:

zzzzzz"a1) What did you mean by "The geographical origin is the key, an area devoid of some important tribal representation." zzzzzzz

Geographical origin from the south is the key to the blackfoot (ID = identification), which is devoid of alot of tribal representation of the historic groups who occupied the vast area. in virginia for instance, there were about 32 groups under powhatan, now there are 7 recognized as being extant (however there are several indian descent families who are not organized and therefore not recognized as being a tribal representation). Additionally, The mass area west of the piedmont into W. virginia is often referred to as "poorly known". Obviously people lived here, but records of their organization are scant. the same goes for most of NC - small vestiges of many tribal entities.

zzzzb1) I think there is some evidence that the name predates the dispersal.zzz

I agree, there is some material with blackfoot docs that predate the late 1800s, however there is not a designation for the "blackfoot" as a larger group (ie: the Powhatan, the Saponi, the Monancan etc). If the Blackfoot in MD are Tutelo in origin - this is a wonderful addition to our search. However, we once again need to tread carefully. The "mass" recognition of Blackfoot ancestory may only have be a very small root at this locale.

zzzzzzzz"Their presence cannot account for the wide spread existence of the Blackfoot ID in the Southeast"zzzzzzzzzz

Indeed. I would also argue that neither can one remote town in MD.
As stated before, the western indian presence here is nill and not the root of this material. I would also add that the popularity of western icons is not the root either, but an additive.

We have Sappony in the same location as a blackfoot town.
the references cited make many note to Conoys, Tutero, Seneca etc in the time of mid 1700's. When does the Blackfoot Town appear first as a place name?

zzzzzzzzzz"2. Did this word "Blackfoot" originate as English translation of "Saponi" or was it as a result of something else. I did see a reference where someone said it was because of a method of farming."zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

This is a very good point, that has come up before. I think this town in DE / MD is one of the best sources to come to light yet. Especially the reference by the elderly gentlman recorded by the ethnographer in the 1940's. However, how do we get Blackfoot? We all know the "sapa / black" business. It is interesting that none(?) of the Tutelos descendants at Six nations or Tuscarora have an oral history of this term - or records of this designation for the Tutelo. Additionally, it is interesting that the Sappony in person co. and saponi in Halifax do not have this reference or oral history. Only the people who are dispersed from their tribal homelands. What does that mean?

How do the E. Blackfoot come to be a tribal identity? Usually it works the other way. Lots of historic references (because of interaction) to eastern indian groups who are small now and not much heard of through the late 1800s on. How do we end up with more queries now and oral history now and such a huge migration to present day locations of all these people who ID themselves as blackfoot. Why arent they Conoys or Massawomacks?
Im still havin a hard time with the translation on Sissapaha and all to present day memory of blackfoot. If we were to believe Specks investigations through the eastern seaboard, they'd be the only indians who knew who they were at the turn of century. (of course some new vaguely, but most deferred to his identification, along with others like Mooney.) If this is the case, The indians in NC would all be named for their counties, and the Upper Mattaponi would be still the Adamstown indians. If the translation biz was on the go, i wished someone would have shown more interest and recorded the rest of the language (like the bible).

zzzzzzzzzzzz"1. The Saponi/Tutelo Indians who lived about Indian River were responsible for name "Blackfoot Indians" mentioned by Hitchens.
2. Because they lived there, the "Blackfoot Indians" gave their name to an Indian town located along Pepper creek, a tributary of Indian River, which later became known as Blackfoot Town. Blackfoot Town is the result of contact with the Blackfoot Indians not vice verse."zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Im just gonna be the devils advocate. I always think we need more indians.
Why were just the Tutelo responsible for the name? what about the seneca (a previous tribal reference to blackfeet on this board) or the Nanticokes living there? what about the other indians represented? Hitchens mentions the report of the informant. does the informant trace his descendancy to the town and/or later documentation of a tribe? (like these folks here are Powhatan, but actually they are Wiccomomicos, to be exact - per the dept. of ethnology) Did the indians name their town, or did the Europeans? that may be important to uncover - since there are no references to the "tribe" of the blackfeet in the historical documents prior to (???) when the town recieves its name. We know the tutelos are there. we know the senecas, the indian river groups, the nanticokes etc, are there. when do we know the "blackfeet" are there. Or do the blackfeet never arrive as a identity group - only the town of blackfoot. once again, how does and when does it get its name? it sure would be convienent if we had more blackfeet names in VA and NC.

As a parting shot, let me just say that i am throughly impressed by all of the hard work that goes into this board. you all are some super people. Also, I d like to make sure that everyone knows im not trying to disprove anyones claim to ancestory - i believe "blackfoot" to be an underesearched cultural marker for southeastern indian descendancy. I just like to challenge broad concepts with a historical and cultural background. Hey just for fun, anyone ever hear of any references to "Rockahoc"?

Linda

03-05-2003, 09:18 AM

You bring up a lot of good points which I want to take time with later, but I do want to jump in quick regarding your statement about their being no Person County or Haliwa people with the Blackfoot ID, signifying there are only people who migrated out with this ID.

My husband has Brunwick county cousins, with the same lines known to be NDN, who have carried this ID for generations (so he's a Blackfoot, too!) There are three visible people I know of in, or associated with the OBSN, who have this ID in their families, whether they give it any credence or not. I've come across MANY people who have always lived in NC/VA who carry this ID. They fit into the naming patterns the same as the rest. I'm also thinking of another individual who I believe derives near the Lumbee area, who has this ID.

I heard of some vociferous ridicule of the Blackfoot ID from someone I was told was Haliwa, which makes me highly suspicious that it IS something that HAS been carried there.

Bess

03-05-2003, 11:24 AM

Linda,

I was looking over some material for my Vineys/Veneys in Lancaster county, Pa and recalled some thing I saw earlier on line about the Ulms. So I checked the Ulms and found that the Ulms were in Lancaster County very early, in fact at the same time that the Tutelo/Totras lived there in the early part of the 1700s. The online search showed that Mathias Ulm, apparently the father of your John Ulm, was born in Earl Twp, Lancaster county, Pa in 1747. This is about the same time that the Tutelo/Totras, Senecas, Shawnee and others plotted their uprising in the Indian river MD/DE border area. Could there be a connection?
It turns out that a possible collateral line of my Vineys were living in Lancaster County somewhat later. A John Viney, described as a "free Negro", resided there in 1810. In another record his birth is listed as 1775. In 1820 he was living in Lancaster City Boro about equal distant from Earl Twp., where the Ulms resided, and Conoy town on the Susquehanna River. Im not sure if Canoy town had been abandoned at that time. I have no oral history on this line, but I know there are two lines of Veney/Vineys (resident of Kentucky and Va) that say they are of Blackfoot Indian ancestry. Would you keep and eye open for anything on the Vineys in that area. Do you know anything about the Ulms when they lived in Lancaster? Thanks.

Bess.

Linda

03-05-2003, 10:35 PM

The Ulms are very well documented, from Mathias on. He married Mary Magdelena Booshar. I've always considered a name like that to be pretty conclusively European, but I must say, I heard from a lady last week with Blackfoot ID'd family from VA, WV and TN with the names Byrd, Jeffers and Borshaer! I know there are some Borshaer's who landed in VA, so perhaps there's no (American) connection with my Booshar's, but it still raises a question.

The Booshar's are interesting. They landed here in 1713, the year the NC Tuscarora were defeated and driven from their lands, coincidentally opening it's pine forests for exploitation as British naval supplies. The Palatinates, which my Booshar's were part of, were brought over to make turpentine from pine tree on the west bank fo the Hudson. Wrong kind of pines. The project was a failure, so they were left to starve. They would have if not for the local Indians who fed them through their second winter.

The Palatinates had another problem with the British seizing their children and bounding them out as indentured servants. They pushed into PA in the 1740's. The southeastern Indians were also experiencing the same problem with their children being bound out. So these two groups would have been meeting up in PA with several things in common.

Mathias moved to Berkeley, WV and married a lady named Naomi. His family is noticeably under-documented compared to the rest of the Ulms in that time and place. His son John moved to Ross, Ohio, where he married Elizabeth Smith. They moved to Wabash County, IL.

Didn't you say you had family near there?

itconani

03-06-2003, 11:47 PM

I think the interesting section here might be that the individuals discussed may currently have ties to the OBSN. Part of the challenge, as has been discussed, is the documentation struggles for the above mention group. Doubt does not exist for me to the indianess of those from VA/NC claiming heritage of blackfoot. However, the members of the Hollister and Flat River bunch do not claim this lineage with a Blackfoot ID. While some fringe members may have this ID within their family, those who are enrolled have always gone into other listings as their documents (other tribes, like pohick nansemond, saponny, etc). Part of the divide has been based around terms that use anything "black"(foot, feet, feather,)" in description associated with indianess in NC. The reason of course is quite unfortunate, but none the less, exists.
Once again, many feel that this designation was created to associate a marriage of two cultures, both of which suffered in the area of civil rights, and one of which carried a worse stigma than the other. As liberties were achieved or offered there was a definate break as far as how "organized" indians were going to be represented to the white majority.
This format of course bears little reasoning for "white" blackfeet. It has been my impression over the years, that there simply are more "white" cherokees than "white" blackfeet in areas where there were no Cherokees or Blackfeet. While Cherokee heritage may be vogue, I feel the Blackfoot ID is a definate cultural marker in areas with huge amounts of "extinct" tribes (undocumented as extant descendancy into this century) , regardless of current racial appearance. But, just like "dominickers" "red bones" and other terms used in the past to desrcibe groups of triracial / biracial orgin with long historic ties to geographical areas, Blackfoot descendancy does not, has not, and has ever equalled a group designated as such, self identified as such, and organized into a historically documented group of Saponis or anyone else. While "blackfeet" or "red bones" may be indian descended, they do not represent a tribe by that name. If they did, then the documents of history would be littered with references and researchers could easily link historic names to current "isolate" communites of "blackfeet". Appearances of Blackfoot descendants known as such in the historic periods are further examples of marginilization, detribalization, and refusal to give up an indian identity. The fact that so much research has been done for area groups should speak for itself. Researching back to geographical areas, migration roots, family lines that connect, muttled listings like FPC, etc can lead many of the "blackfoot" people together, but will not lead them to the blackfeet.

I think this marker needs to be seen for what it is, regardless of blackfoot churches in missouri, blackfoot town in DE, Blackfoot / cherokee oral histories. by spending so much time looking for the marker, the designation that created the marker may be missed.

Linda

03-07-2003, 08:26 AM

What do you mean by "designation that created the marker ?"

I think it's important to consider that the two communities you mentioned are only two among many in NC and VA that are likely involved in Eastern Siouan descent. If, as you say, they don't report the usage of this ID, then they would seem to be the only two places where you find Eastern Siouan descendants and a lack of Blackfoot ID.

I would raise the question that the ID has perhaps occurred there, but has been suppressed because of the presumptions people have had that it really "just" signifies black ancestry. I haven't investigated this, and am just raising a possibility. The few people I've heard who are from "recognized" Saponi communities, who've objected to the term, were protesting a bit too loudly, which raises my red flags that the denial is really an admission. I would caution anybody to be drawing conclusions from that denial. We just don't know.

vance hawkins

03-07-2003, 10:32 AM

Where are these known communities of Saponi? What have they said about the designation of the "Blackfoot" ID tag?

Nicknames that are rejected in one generation might be acceptable in another. Those accepted in one geographic area might be rejected in another.

I know dad (1915-1992) HATED the term "Okie" and bitterly resisted when Governor Henry Bellman (of course Bellman was a Republican, and Dad never had anything good to say about any Republican) in the late 60s wanted to popularize it. Dad would say, "Okies were the people who LEFT Oklahoma in the Dust Bowl, NOT the people who remained!" Then he'd go on and on about how it was a derogatory word and if anybody in the Army called him an "Okie", well, those were fightin' words", he'd say, and he was dead serious, he meant it. He served during WW2.

But now our Governors regularly use the term "Okie" to represent Oklahoma people, and I don't hear anyone sayin' it is derogatory, people have just forgotten I guess, that once it was.

Maybe the origin of the term Blackfoot is like that. Maybe it was derogatory in one generation, but became accepted by those in the next generation.

I like a good puzzle, and I enjoy the speculation. I hope there is a resolution of it -- in my lifetime :)

vance

Linda

03-07-2003, 01:14 PM

I don't think it was originally derogatory at all, mainly because of the coincidence of the name among the Western Sioux. To me, that speaks of a very ancient origin. You tell me, Vance, what's the statistical probability that two groups, either Sioux, or predominantly Siouan by association, would just happen to be known by the same name by chance?

I think it just got to be derogatory because some of the descendants also happened to have African ancestry, and were living in a Jim Crow climate. The coincidence with the word "black" was used as an excuse to enforce the "one drop rule" yet again.

itconani

03-07-2003, 07:36 PM

To my knowledge the use of this term amongst present day recognized Saponi doesnt exist simply put, because it did not exist in the literature or historical record. These groups reorganized after a serious hunkering down for 200yrs. they only remaining vestiges of culture and identity are known as cultural markers. this helps seperate cultural elements of "indian" from those that may be termed "african" or "european". this of course is because in some cases, everyone has traits from other races. One example of a cultural marker would be a particular tradition of farming or prayer at church, that differed significantly from the populous abroad. Additional elements may be linked because of appearance, and self ID as determining ethnicity. A "black or white" family that has a tradition of being "blackfoot" where no blackfoot exists would be an example of a cultural marker. In many cases tribes here in the east did not know "who" they were in terms of tribal identification. many made these descisons within our lifetimes. these desiscions were based partially on consensus, partially on oral history, partially on records, and partially on the department of ethnography's effort to identify and locate all eastern exant communities. Some were visiited like the Sappony, others only mentioned through word of mouth to find their way to the written record (such is the case with the Haterask or the Werwocomico). In short, the groups who are extant or missing from today, existed in history. the challenge is to link the two. Cultural markers and geographical patterning help this effort, as do census records, etc. Using Blackfoot as a cultural marker helps identify the possiblity of indian descent, but does not create an ancient Sioun blackfoot tribe that has escaped history. Blackfoot may be Sappony, maybe Delaware, maybe Shawnee, may be Chowanoke. It's hard to say because its a cultural marker, not a source. I'd like to think of it as a nickname, butnot a designation. Additionally, the "popular" western blackfoot are Algonquian speakers, like the cheyenne. there is no coincidence at all.

The real question if we want to be really curious about the coincidence of sisipaha , is why only "blackfoot" survives and why not the translation of the other townships within the Saponi / Tutelo area. It is only one of many. Im so confused as to why so many peolpe feel challenged by this. It as if they dont want to know any reality, other than oral history. I believe most of these people who are part of the migration patterns, who have similiar family names, etc have some indian ancestory from the region occupied by a WIDE variety of Eastern Sioun peolpes, AS WELL AS Algonquians. Why there is such a mystery is baffaling considering how much research has already been done.
Eastern Sioun is much more appropriate, and tribal designations like Saponny, Eno, Occannechee, etc are as well. After all, the Monacan are Eastern Siouns who have no records indicating being Blackfoot per se - but they were known as the Cherokee of Amherst for most of the 20th century.

I think the reason distance has been created from this term amongst current recognized tribes IS because of its origin. I think the loud people DO know where it comes from, and recognize it shamefully as an indication of lack of cultural identity - THAT is plowing a little too close to the cotton for most of VA/NC indians, especially with such struggles to be acknowledged and the realization of so much cultural loss and misinformation within enrolled families.
Hence the great rush to powwow and adopt pan indian symbolisms as identified as "Indian" to all.

Bess

03-11-2003, 08:00 PM

Patty,

I see that you have some surnames that I am also interested in: James, Baker and Hubbard. These are not my direct lines but they have come up in related research.

I have a Jesse James who married a Jetha Viney in Kanawha county, West Va, May 4, 1893. On their marriage registration both of them are listed as "colored" and were born in Halifax County, Va. I don't have any info on the Jesse James but some Viney lines in Va. and WVA. have been identified in local records as being of "Indian extraction". What county is your James family from in NC? Were they ever in VA? What county were your Hubbards from in Indiana?

I have a Sarah Viney who married a Peyton Baker in Giles County, Va., Dec. 23, 1879.
There are also Hensleys listed among the Western Cherokee Nation; have you had any oral history in that direction

Bess.

Bess

03-12-2003, 01:22 AM

Linda, Vance

I have a few other things to pass on about developments in lower Wabash area. Since it concerns both of your lines, I thought I would send one message and "kill two birds with one stone".
1. Patoka River is a major waterway passing through Pike and Gibson counties and emptying into the Wabash River on the east side. About 20 miles up stream toward the East from the mouth of Patoka sets the Blackfoot cemetery . It turns out that on the other side of the Wabash River, opposite the mouth of the Patoka, sets a town called Mt. Carmel, the county seat of Wabash county, Illinois. The Potoka was a significant avenue for the movement of people and trade between those who lived on the East and West sides of the Wabash, before the Europan came and afterwards.
I was looking over some books and old maps the other day and found out that Mt Carmel was established in 1825, but a village existed there prior to that. Interestingly, a town called "Powhatton" was a suburb of Mt. Carmel on a plat book in 1859. Later this same town appeared on the 1876 map spelled as "Pohaton". It may still exist today as a separate political entity or as a subdivision of Mt Carmel. (See:http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/il/wabash/cemeteries/location.txt )

2. According to a local history, Edward Ulm, the son of Mathias Ulm, came to Mt Carmel in 1820 from Ross County, Ohio. He was one of the first Town Trusties for Mt Carmel in 1825.

Bess.

Linda

03-12-2003, 08:14 AM

I didn't know Edward was a Town Trustee. My great grandfather's other uncle, a Harris, was an intial County Commissioner in WI. If, in fact, these were all mixed blooded people, they were certainly doing well in the Midwest. Another Harris uncle or cousin was a newspaper editor in VA or WV around the time of the Civil War. We're not sure what side of the controversy he was on, but his press was chucked into the river by some disgrunted townspeople. On anther line, my great grandmother, Malinda Hudson, was a schoolteacher by the age of 19. I think if the "settling" of the Midwest were looked at in terms of the volume of people of mixed Indian descent contributing significantly to the mainstream culture , we'd have a whole new way of looking at the history of this country.

Linda

03-12-2003, 09:34 AM

Itconani. maybe we're having some difficulty over semantics. When I use the term "Saponi" in this context I mean Eastern Siouan, as Gov. Spotswood defined it, so I'm not saying that I believe definitively that the Eastern Blackfoot ID is directly and exclusive linked to the historic Saponi tribe. My position is that there appears to be a clear preponderance of Eastern Siouan connections in the Indian descended families who carry this ID.

techteach

03-12-2003, 06:53 PM

You know, a thought occurred to me as I was on the road for my job. In this forum, we have explored possible origins of the Blackfoot ID from semantic viewpoints, from migration patterns, from historical viewpoints, and from cultural viewpoints. Is is feasible to explore it from a qualitative researchers viewpoint? I am not a qualitative researcher; any research I have done has been quantitative. However, as I understand it, a qualitative researcher collects information and then looks for patterns to make conclusions. Given this, is it feasible to collect information from those of us about our ancestors that might show patterns, providing clues to what the ID might have meant or is this just not possible, given that the time we are talking might be too long ago or, as the case is for me, ethnicity was so suppressed that finding out anything is virtually impossible? For example, one thing discussed was a method of farming. Could we find out how many were farmers, or even if they commented that they used a special farming method? Could we paint a picture of them that might provide patterns or clues to the ID? Just a thought...

Linda

03-12-2003, 07:54 PM

I think that's a very good idea. I want to get a database online and then ask everybody who's contacted me in the past few years regarding this to enter their data. We can leave a field for info like this. I finally know how to write a database in Access, but I need to figure out how to convert that to mysql so I can put it on my server.

There never seems to be enough time.

vance hawkins

03-12-2003, 09:21 PM

Bess --thanks. You know I recall when looking into old documents that my ancestors lived on that river -- Potoka -- but I don't know where on it or how near it.

Odd tho you mention a town called Powhattan. On grandma's birth certificate (Loney Richey, b. 1886) it asks where her parents were born, and for her father Jeffrey Hoten Richey (b. 1851 d 1926) it says he was born in Powhatan (sp?), Lawrence County, Arkansas. Odd they moved from a county in Indiana where there was a town called "Powhatan" to a town in Arkansas where there was a town by that same name.

Again, could be a coincidence . . . i hav a lot of hints and supposition but very little facts to go on, as to tribal affiliation of my ancestors. But the more data I have the better able I am to start making educated guesses, which in the long run, may be all I ever discover -- but that's a lot more than I had before -- wado!

vance

Linda

07-12-2003, 01:03 AM

Just bring some threads forward for new members.

Linda

08-03-2003, 10:59 PM

I was being clobbered repeatedly by Klez while a lot of this thread was going on and didn't do it justice. I've been re-reading it this weekend and bowled over by a a few things.

What's really significant is what Bess reported about the Tutelo in around Blackfoot Town (Dagsboro, DE). Earlier in this thread, Bess wrote:

Saponi/ Tutelos were indeed located near Dagsboro/ Blackfoot Town prior to 1747. The writings of J. Thomas Scharf, the noted Historian of Delaware,(1.) places the Saponi/Tutelo amongst other tribes inhabiting the southern part of Delaware (most likely Sussex county) in the 1700s. Here is what Scarf says in 1880:

"The ...Scackamaxons, Tutelos, Nanticokes and many others occupied the lower country toward the coast, upon the Delaware and its affuents."(2.) We don't know exactly how this group of Saponi/Tutelo ended up in this area, but the solution of that problem can be taken up at another time. The main point is that the Tutelo according to Scharf were in lower Delaware at an early date.

Another citation places Saponi/Tutelo in the vicinity of the South Delaware in 1742. Tutelos (recorded as Totra) residing at Conoy town, Lancaster county, PA, along with Seneca, Shawnee, and Nanticoke, were a part of a famous plot for an Indian uprising in lower Delaware, at the portage of the Indian River area and the Pokomoke river on the MD/DE border. The name of the place was Winnasoccum. Apparently, groups of Indians at Conoy town, including the Tutelo, did travel to the MD/DE border. Here they met some of the local Nanticokes and "Indian River Indians" to put the plan into action. Details on this plot are recorded in the Maryland Colonial records. Here is what is said about these events in testimony on June 30, 1742:

"Letter No. 78:
Maryland ss | Dochester Co. | The Examination of Jacob Pattasahook, one of Nanticoke Indians taken before me one of his Lordships Justices of the peace for the County aforesaid saith about a month ago this Examinant was at Coney Town on Susquehana River and was told by the Indians of said Town that the Senaca and Totra Indians in Conjunction and by the advice of the french had agreed to Cut of the English Inhabitants in Pensylvania Maryland and other adjacent parts of this Continent and the Indians in Somersett and Dorsett County and to that End the Senaca Indians were soon to go to Philadelphia to Dispose of some part of the Lands for Arms and Ammunition and haveing so done the Senaca, Totra, and other Indians were in roasten Ear and Apple time to fall upon the Back Inhabitants and at the Same time the french who was to come by Sea, were to Land on the Sea bond side of Somersett County in order to meet the said Indians, and further this Examinat Saith not, his June the 30th 1742 Jacob [c Pattasahook Certified by Henry Trippe marke"
This reference can be found at this address online:http://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/m.../000001/000042/ html/am42--654.html

After the plot was foiled most likely some of the Tutelo stayed on in the area. So by solid historical accounts, around 1742, Saponi/ Tutelo Indians were near the region of what later became known as Blackfoot Town. The multi tribal population of this area decreased over time but a remnant survives to today. It is established as the Indian River Hundred Nanticoke organization and has an office and museum in the town of Millsboro, which is a few miles form Dagsboro

In the 1930s and 1940s, several government ethnologists visited the Indian River Nanticoke population living near Blackfoot Town. C.A. Weslager, the noted researcher on the Lenni- Lenape and Nanticoke Indians interviewed a Joshua Hitchens on Oct. 25, 1941. When asked about his genealogy, Hitchens said his father's family "were members of the Blackfoot Tribe."(3.) Weslager did not endorse this statement of tribal affiliation nor did he try to openly attack it. Instead, he tried to claim that the Blackfoot tribe identification, in question, resulted from Blackfoot Town being a place name. Of course it is ludicrous to claim that the Blackfoot tribe spoken of by Hitchens has nothing to do with Indians, given that Blackfoot Town sat on Indian River. Indian River has been known by this name since 1640 in court records of Worcester County, Maryland, and later in Sussex County, Delaware. "Indian River Indians" who in fact were an amalgamation of the Nantcoke, Assateague, Saponi/Tutelo and others, appear in county documents and Maryland colonial records as early as 1700. Pulling this all together, what makes sense is to recognize that

1. The Saponi/Tutelo Indians who lived about Indian River were responsible for name "Blackfoot Indians" mentioned by Hitchens.

2. Because they lived there, the "Blackfoot Indians" gave their name to an Indian town located along Pepper creek, a tributary of Indian River, which later became known as Blackfoot Town. Blackfoot Town is the result of contact with the Blackfoot Indians not vice verse.

My work with history tends to be flawed by the fact that I have a better imagination than memory. But I was feeling today that for once this had stood me in good stead after seeing this documentation that Tutelo people joined up with the Seneca and tried to wage war on the British.

For some years now I've been trying to imagine what people must have been feeling, stewing at Fort Christanna while the world was coming to an end. It seemed like you'd think there'd be some people, probably some young bloods, who realized their enemies were not the Seneca (especially since most of their kin were, at that point, Seneca adoptees). The encroachment of the Europeans was what set in motion the pressures that created that feud, and striking out at the settlers was the logical and appropriate thing to do (not to mention the satisfying thing to do).

So now we know, there were just such people. Somewhere in that mix, we had our own Tecumseh of sorts, making a valiant last stand.

Of course, we likely don't descend from him. We descend from the ones who decided to make off for some holler or some swamp and disappear. Which is, of course, another wholly logical, sensible and understandable response, and from the numbers of descendants, the one that worked the best in terms of physical survival.

lentz of nc

06-19-2006, 11:12 AM

Linda, I noticed on an old post under Blackfoot Saponi Va that there was an Anderson under that roll Could you let me know anything you know about Anderson name or era I have aHenry Anderson 1729 (Edgecombe,N.C) who had John Anderson 1760 (Brunswick) Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks

lentz of nc

06-19-2006, 12:42 PM

techteach

06-19-2006, 10:19 PM

Lentz,
Search the forum for the Anderson name. Not sure what you will find, but worth the try. The button is in the upper right hand corner.

Also post your names and dates in the genealogy section. Bill might have be able look for them.

Techteach

lentz of nc

06-20-2006, 09:03 AM

Thanks Teach, I noticed Linda had put the name Anderson up. Also thank-you
for the avitar,it was greatly appreciated Lentz

Linda

06-20-2006, 11:15 PM

Anderson is one of the names Richard Haithcock noticed in his research to be connected with Saponi families. I don't know the details. He's an Ohio Saponi. I'm trying to get his books available here. We're working on it.

Try posting what you know to the Share Genealogy section and see what the researchers there can come up with.

PappyDick

07-01-2006, 04:40 PM

Some of those popular western Blackfoot from Alberta are in Washington DC this week at the Smithsonian Folklife Festival. See my new thread posting today, under EVENTS, for a few details.

quest for facts

07-02-2006, 03:36 PM

I am from Edgecombe/Wilson County area of North Carolina and never once have I heard of the Blackfoot ID in my family or any of the other local families (until a Webb said it just recently). We are Tuscarora/Nottoway/white. However my husband's family who are also indian/white have this ID and they are one of the thousands from Missouri. He told me that it was because they burned their fields and then stomped them out with their feet. They have no real tribal identy it has been completely lost. His mother's family said Cherokee his father said Blackfoot. His mother's family traces to the Collins back in Virginia. I have found his paternal great grandfather in Haywood County TN in 1900 otherwise I have not been able to trace these "Blackfoot" ancestors. Supposely they were sharecroppers and moved around alot. Once some time ago one of them mentioned the Big Sandy to me but since then none of them seem to be able to remember this info.
Linda

Linda

07-10-2006, 11:05 PM

Oh, dear, a Collins from Missouri, TN and the Big Sandy with the Blackfoot ID. Five points in common with how many others, how is it people can look at this data and snear that there's nothing in particular going on, that the Blackfoot ID is just something Indian descended people took on randomly? And it's never come up in your family, with different tribal roots. If it were random it would be cropping up all over the place, but it simply doesn't. Thanks for sharing this. Actually, your husband's family hasn't completely lost its identity. They've been saying all along who they are, with more clarity than just about any other upper south NDNs. They just been using what they called themselves instead of what the white people called them.

quest for facts

07-11-2006, 12:49 AM

Linda,
Since I posted that I have learned more about the paternal side of my Husbands family one that claims Blackfoot and they are ironclad about. Like I said I found them in Haywood Cty, Tn then I was able to trace them to Knox Cty Tn. Earlier on in Md at a German settlement called Monoacy in Frederick Cty. Anyway the say they are German/Blackfoot. This was right on the Va line. Several of them married women from VA. I can't the surnames on these women yet but I'm working on it. But yea his mother comes from that Collins bunch LOL and they came through Illinois so yep these folks came through the Big Sandy. His family is still very much indian. And honestly I never heard Blackfoot from any of our local people in my part of NC. My husband told me Blackfoot and I said but you aren't from MOntana LOL Then one night out of the blue I put Blackfoot in the web browser and came up with Saponitown I went oh good Lord I married a Sioux LOL But as you know I think I must have one lone Saponi among my family somewhere they are just so mixed in with all the Tuscarora and Nottoway they are hiding LOL But so far everything my grandma said has been true and she said Sioux also, got to be here somewhere. But I have learned something else in this research and that is not to assume just cause she is the one who said it that it is in her family and not my grandfathers she told the whole deal LOL but forgot to mention which one of them it came from. Actually it was both of them but I had to sort out the rest LOL My Mom is so shocked at what I have found she just thought it was just from her Mama. I said to her one day if your Daddy was 100% white please explain this to me what I showed her made her jaw drop she says Linda you're kidding...I said Mama I'm serious as a heart attack...she goes good Lord Almighty. Her whole life when anyone asked her about being indian she would say yep I'm about 1/4 probably now she doesn't know what to say let's just say she is floored. She said to me a while back maybe I need one of those DNA tests to tell just how much indian I am. I laughed and said you think you need it what about your kids? LOL
Linda

techteach

07-11-2006, 12:57 PM

I wonder if we really ought to do some research beyond what was done a few years ago, counting the percentage of people who have Blackfoot ID. In qualitative research, you amass as much information as possible and then look for themes. Seems to me that a database of people with the ID should be collected, with their information, such as they know it. For example, my Blackfoot ID is McLane. She came from near Pittsburgh, born in the early 1800s, and moved to IA. She marries people who come from Licking County, OH, via Sheperdstown, WVA.
Deb's information would be the same, except her Blackfoot ID name is McLennon. Neither of us can carry the name beyond these women with the ID.

Collect this kind of information and look for patterns of such things as origin, movement, names, etc. This is what is done in qualitative research. Conclusions can be drawn from the patterns of the responses. For example, Linda, has somewhat similar movement lines, Tom's folks spent some time in IA, etc.

I am not volunteering though. Too busy.

Techteach

Tom

07-11-2006, 04:49 PM

Hey there, just a short note to touch on theses topics.
Our family lines do go through Ia, back to Ws and Indiana and down into Tn and probably both of the Carolinas and VA.
We have the Blackfoot ID, we have Indian looking people in our family, we have designs on clothing decorative art traditions, and finally a dna test was recently done, all add up to Indian, and in this case proves out our oral history, what more do people want us to do to prove who we are.!?

techteach

07-11-2006, 06:41 PM

It is not who you are, Tom. It is trying to find out who the folks with the Blackfoot ID were. What was the origin of the ID? Are there seminal surnames? Where did they originate from? Do they really tie into Blackfoot Town and Blackfoot Cemetery (BTW, I followed one family line from Blackfoot Town, all the way to Blackfoot Cemetery and found on genforum that they had the Blackfoot Indian rumor in their family.) Like Linda says, proving that there is something to all these folks claiming Blackfoot while not being near the western Blackfoot. In qualitative research, you find out themes based upon recurring stories. In our case, it might seem that eastern Iowa was one of the Blackfoot locations, because you, Barb, Deb, and I all had people who called themselves Blackfoot in eastern Iowa. And Linda's folks were only a county and the Mississippi River away.

Techteach

PS: I had the same DNA results as your family.

Linda

07-11-2006, 10:25 PM

I've been dreaming about the database for years. I tried writing one in Access at one point, but never finished it. It got too complicated since you'd have to let people add in any number of family lines. Somebody who's already familiar with genealogical databases would need to set us up. That could be a project we tried to raise money for. What if we just tried to pass the hat amongst the forum members? There are about 900 good email addresses in our database. How could we handle it? I wouldn't want to accept money unless we actually had enough to do the project, since I wouldn't want to be stuck figuring out how to return it if enough didn't come in to make it fly. What if we sent out an email asking for pledges?

techteach

07-12-2006, 04:06 PM

It would not really have to be a database. Qualitative research takes narratives and dissects them into common themes. There is even software that does this dissection, I believe. Doing this, you would have people "tell" their stories.

Techteach

PS: I have not done this myself.

Tom

07-12-2006, 06:06 PM

WEll that's interesting trying to get this type of qualitative research done.
I really don't get the non-personal side of things since we carry the ID of Blackfoot, I can only know where it comes from by speaking to the older members of our family, it may not be just about me, but in a way it is and isn't, we are keeping the history of who we are alive , it's been passed down , not just in the past few years but by the ancient people that we will never see.
It may not be about me and us but like you say Tech in qualitative research we have to follow these "threads" in order to find the sum of the whole, so it's parts making up the sum., which still will eventually come back to us.
I'd like to see all other members add thier families migration roots aswell.
Thereis going to be dividing themes in history like the American Civil war etc, I have no idea how this is going to be done, but so far the oldest records that may have been found is either, Sc, or Va-Nc for my family.
I do want to know more and would like to see some type of a model for this research!

sammarroq

07-12-2006, 09:25 PM

I hope this doesn't sound too naive, but what is the Blackfoot ID? Is it a list similar to the Dawes rolls, etc? I have not been able to positively connect my family anywhere, but I am certain the native roots are there.

Shirley

Linda

07-12-2006, 10:04 PM

We just mean by that the tribal name that's been carried through generations in many southeastern derived families. There's an article we've written at www.saponitown.com/Blackfoot.htm that details most of the evidence we've found about it. It's not at all like the Dawes Roll since that is a legal document totally recognized by everybody in the world. Our Blackfoot ID is a mystery to most, dismissed by many, a joke to others, with little academic or legal documentation to substantiate it.

sammarroq

07-13-2006, 04:53 PM

Thanks Linda for the clarification, I will read the article. I really should have known it would not be as simple as a list of Saponi names. My family is really a mystery, finding facts on ethnicity is tough.

Shirley

sammarroq

10-17-2006, 07:34 PM

collins

01-31-2007, 12:22 AM

I was told by my family that our people used to plant corn, beans, and pumpkins together.
Not sure if this is the type of thing you guys were looking for in searching for farming practices.

Also there seems to be a story or two about a type of sausage they made in a big pot which was layered with lard, herbs, and meat. This concoction was kept out in the open with out means of refrigeration. I have wondered how it was able to be eaten into the long weeks it is said to have lasted.

Alcohol distilling or moonshining also seems to have been a big pass time among some of our families. In fact the Fort Smith records show many of our relatives in cases of liquor charges with various aliases they were known by.

The other uncanny thing about these families, especially the Johnson family, is that they seemed to have been assignees to a vast number of acerage in Arkansas. (i.e. especially William Johnson)

I have been told that both the Collins and Johnsons had the ear of Hanging Judge Parker at Fort Smith. The i.d. of "blackfoot/Blackfoot" has been in these families as well "Pony/Pawnese", Osage, and Cherokee. Crow was also a designation that was handed down, however it was always said not to be a tribal designation. Perhaps it was a reference to a clan affiliation of some sort.

Collins DNA: David Colins of "1750" is directly descended from the same family as Vardy Collins and thus "Old Thomas Collins". What is true for David Collins of "1750" is going to likely be true for any descendent of "Old Thomas Collins".

Another interesting factiod:
The Collins, Johnson, and other associated families that ended up in Missouri seemed to have had a fascination with dynamite and self armament. There is a story in a local paper in Missouri dating around the turn of the century regarding an incident involving the accidental explosive power of stockpiled gunpowder and explosives. Needless to say never think wet gunpowder isn't flamable.

Aggression and Fighting:
This seems to have been a natural coarse of life among these families to squabble, fight, and generally have some wild rukus or other. There is an article in the West Plains Quill that talks about a family reunion that ended in a general millet with all partipation from men, women, and children.

Warnings From Authorities:
Another strange and mistifying truth is that back in Missouri these various families live in pockets. I have heard from several family members that police will not even venture into certain areas of the hills where these communities are located. One family member was even warned not to get shot in those areas because the police would not likely respond.

Schools:
In the past their have been schools that were started by the family up in Missouri for the community. Schools like the Singing Bird School and Round Top School. I have also heard stories about Collins children being singled out and picked on for being a Collins in the public schools. This still happens to this day in the public school system in those areas.

Religon:
Most of our families are Christian of some denomination or other. Mainly Baptists, Charsmatics, and Methodists. There are still a few that practice the old Indian ways and many keep the herbal things that have been handed down.

Dances:
It has been noted by local historians that the Johnson family often held Indian dances and that during the drought time had special dances.

Ailments:
Skin, Ovarian, Breast, and Prostate cancer seems to be a norm among our people as well digestive disorders such as acid reflux disease, and esophogial disorders. Diabetes and lactose disorders are present as well. Another disturbing ailment that afflicts is stroke, black outs, and blood pressure problems, allergies to anasthetic (i.e. needing more to do the job), and Bachet's Syndrom. The most common of these ailments being cancer, diabetes, and digestive disorders.

Geography:
Where ever our people ended up they usually resided near forested hills and rivers/creeks. No matter what state they resided in, (VA, N.C., KY, TN, AL, GA, IN, Ark., MO, TX, OK), this was always true.

Complexion:
The complexion of our people has varied from white to dark dark brown. Very often the tent of our people has depended very much on the season and level of outside activity. Although most can and do pass for white there are some that leave outsiders guessing as to nationality.

Hope this information helps in accumulating statics.