Tuckahoe and Cohee book

[TuckahoePrincess]

Hey, does anyone know how I can get that book on Tuckahoes and Cohees?

Caryn

[CoheeLady]

To Tuckahoe Princess,

The book on Tuckahoes & Cohee's of Virginia, I have only seen it at the Library of Virginia. They may have two copies, as I was able to check it out a few years ago. In the near future I will check it out again & copy it. I tried to get in touch with the author, but had no luck in doing so. I will see if I can legally send you a copy of the book, or just email you the information from the book. Also I can check to see if a store that deals in rare books could help find one or two copies.
Sincerely,
Coheelady

[TuckahoePrincess]

CoheeLady, I would... LOVE YOU FOREVER!!! hahaha... Of course, since we're very likely cousins, I'm thinking that would be alright. I'm going to check and see if I can get the book through interlibrary loan through my university... but if you could send me a copy, that would be fab too. I'll get back to you on this. Thanks!

TuckahoePrincess

[CoheeLady]

Dennis,
Thans for the information. Nothing new unfortunately. I didn't see any statements referring to American Indians & the Cash family. Same old crap, no offense. Most of the information on the site is incorrect. I was disturbed by the blatant happiness that came from the writer of the material, regarding how Bacon won against the Pamunkey Indians. That was very rude, but then again most people are. :)
Anah,
CoheeLady

[vance hawkins]

The fact that "Tokyo" and "Tuckaho" sound a like is nothing but a coincidence. Same with "Coree" and "Korea" -- in fact it is rediculously absurd. Dennis I love some of your posts, but this is obsession with a "Japanese Indian" connection of yours is driving me crazy.

I suppose "Oklahoma" and "Okinawa" have the same roots. "Peru" sounds like "Pelelu" and this proved Pacific islanders landed on the coast of Peru. Proof that "turkeys" were brought to America by Turkish sailors is found in the fact we call them "Turkeys". Notice the similiarity between the name of the bird and the country?

My last name "Hawkins" has absolutely NO RELATIONSHIP with the predatory bird called a "Hawk". It is a coincidence and coincidences happen all the time! Anyone can find literally THOUSANDS of words in EVERY LANGUAGE THAT THERE IS that sound like words in other languages! There are a finite number of possible combinations of sylables possible and it is EXPECRED that words HAVE to sound alike by pure coincidence alone.

Were it NOT a coincidence, you'd find hundreds and hundreds of words that i.] sound similar and ii.] have similar meanings. Tokyo DOES NOT mean "edible tubor" so this does not even count. Dennis if you can find 100 Japanese words that fit this criteria I'll back your theory 100 percent -- but you have ZERO evidence! This is just rediculous. PLEASE quit with this rediculous notion! There is a higher probability that zero is equal to one than there is that Tokyo and Tuckaho have a common root.

vance

[CoheeLady]

Dennis,
You don't need to remove the information on the Cash family, unless you want to. Whomever wrote the information didn't even say where their information came from. When doing genealogy research one must always state their source of information if possible. Even if the source is verbal.
CoheeLady

[vance hawkins]

Dennis,

when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, my dad was stationed at Schofield Barracks on the Island of Oahu. He said he was in a chow line . . . he also told me after it was over the window over his bunk had been blown out and there were bullet holes in his bunk . . . I was born i 1952 after the war.

But Dennis, this Japanese theory has nothing to do with my beliefs about Japanese culture -- I just want you to talk about relevant things.

Dennis I like you -- before posting these wild ideas research them. Have you seen documentation where others have researched the Japanese Language and found hundreds of words that correlate? Im a mathematician specializing in probability theory, Dennis, I know about correlations . . . It is expected that coincidences occur -- in fact everything in nature, in mathematics, demands they occur! Coincidences in word similarity occur and they do so ALL THE TIME and they do so IN EVERY LANGUAGE THAT THERE IS. If you give me 50 Russian words randomly chosen I'll bet you 100 dollars I can find find at least 5 that are as similar to English words, as similar as "Tokyo" is to "Tuckaho". That proves nothing, Dennis.

Now the difference between a coincidence and reality is the NUMBER of such coincidences. There are THOUSANDS or such similarities beteen English and Latin, and between English and German. There are enough coincidences to show that THIS IS NOT A COINCIDENCE. That's the diffrence.

What you need is as I said, 1. show the words are similar and you have done thius with one word -- well 1.] find 100 words from the same language "Tuckaho" came from AND 2.] show they have similar meanings. Dennis, until you have done this, please realize you have proven nothing. Research and proof consist of more than randon coincidences -- it quits being a coincidence when you have a suffecient quantity of data. You don't have that.

vance

[vance hawkins]

Dennis, you said --

There is Ancient Legend among American Natives that Jesus appeared app. 2000 years ago. This was told to me by descendants of Techumseh.

my reply --

Dennis, I am bein' awful awful patient. I wanna get back to the facts . . . There are weird ideas all over the place. I'm gonna start askin' you do document them I think. Surely you know the harm undocumented "so-called" facts can do. Once a story gets out, it's out, and a million people will now go around repeating it as tho it is a fact. The damage is done and it is too late.

I am sitting here drinking a cup of coffee froma mug that says "AST Tribal Smoke Shop" -- That AST stands for Absentee Shawnee Tribe. I lived for 5 years in Little Axe, Oklahoma. They are one of the federally recognized Shawnee Tribes. It's 1/2 way between the city of Tecumseh (10 mi E) and Norman (10 mi W) in central Oklahoma, just south & west a little of the town of Shawnee, Oklahoma. I drove past that "Smoke Shop" in Hwy 9 there in Little Axe every day for 5 years . . .

I can promise there is no Shawnee story about "Jesus coming to America 2000 years ago". That is a Later Day Saints story from Joseph Smith. I do my best to try NOT to put down any religion here as that's not my place here -- but I can say that it is more likely that Indian people heard of Mormanism from Mormans that told them about Joseph Smith's writings.

vance

[dknicely]

Dennis has chosen to delete his posts. - lkc

[vance hawkins]

How did your Japanese ancestors get from Japan/Korea to the Chesapeake Bay? Around Africa, around South American, across the Arctic? Did they sail to Alaska and walk the rest of the way?

Dennis these folks had to hunt & fish daily for food. They had to travel across hostil grounds, folks who didn't want to see them huntin' & fishin' on their hunting grounds -- now I'll imagine some would be friendly but some would be upset too-- no way aroound it. These Japanese exployers would have been unwelcomed and few in numbers compared wiith the folks already living there. Do you have any idea how long that it would have taken to walk from Alaska to Maryland across "enemy" territory? It would have taken generations to "walk" So by then they would have been thuoroughly mixed. I'll wager Algonquin's have lived in Kentucky far longer than Japanese have lived in Japan. Historians say Japanese came from Okinawa before they were in Japan and booted the original inhabitants of Japan out. Since thoseoriginal inhabitants are KNOWN to have NOT been Japanese, and since a few of them still live in Hokaido the northern most Island of Japan, they are a possible link to maybe Eskimos. But since Japanese came from the South and and we know who lived to tehir North well -- only a stranded boat or 2 might have made it to th Alaskan Islands --I can buy that. Even the Koreans I can understand -- they speak a Mongolian Language and I believe it might be documented that they have a little similarity between them and the Eskimo languges. But to me the rest is nonsence, Dennis.

Even un midern times a trip around South America is treacherous for sailors -- Your Japanese sailors wouldn't have made it.

The arctic would have frozen over and so would any people not prepared for the icey conditions. A group of sailors lost at sea would have been smart enough to know it would be warmer if they went south and I think would not have attempted this either.

This leaves our shipwrecked sailors last alternative, sail past Indonesia, past Indian and Africa, up the African coastline, across the Atlantic to South America, up the South American Coastline, past the Carribean sea and Islands, north to Florida, Up the coast of North America and finally the settle in Maryland and Virginia.

Dennis the last part of this journey from Florida to Maryland goes againse the natural current of the sea. And why didn't they settle in any of the other land they passed -- this long journey would have made them weary and most sane people would have stopped t some land mass long before they got to the Atlantic seaboard, as those are all habital lush places to live. There is no reason to go there it is so far of the way.

To suggest they migrated from Japan at an earlier date say in the last 5,000 or 10,000 years ago is to suggest they migrated long after the other 3 migrations already mentioned. To sggest they migrated with teh last migration -- the Eskimo/Aleut folks would suggest a closer link linguistically with them than with people living on the Atlantic coast. To sugest the Japanese came hre earlier than anyone else begs the question, "How then did they get from Maryland then to Japan, since they would have appeared in Maryland long before they ever appeared in Japan.

I know Washington DC is an "eastern capital" of the US. But that city didn't come into existence until about 1800 I don't think. Th word "Tuckahoe" from my understanding predates that event. I think maybe since Tokyo is a recently made capital of Japan, the term "eastern capital" might be referring to the fact that it is on hte East coast of Japan and is East of Kyoto, I don't think when it was founded it had anything to do with htem wanting to name their city after a location in the state of Maryland, Dennis.

Dennis, you said yu don't feel comfortable about bringing these topics here because "it might offend" some people -- then why, kowing this, did you bring this topic here in the first place?

I agree 100 percent, it is better to speak of these things one on one and develop this theory more -- get the bugs out of it - before going public with it. Feel free to e-mail me privately.

best wishes,

vance

[dknicely]

Dennis has chosen to delete his remarks. - lkc

[vance hawkins]

Dennis, I know it cna be wlked in a year. You have missed the point entirely. Lief Ericson could have walked from Nova Scotia to Vancouver -- biut he had no reason to. The Jamestown settrlers "could have" walked from Va to Seattle -- but why did they stay put? They had to EAT Dennis. They would have been killed by nearly every tribe between Va & Seattle not knowing the customs, et cetera.

Dennis, you said --

My research has more to do with similarities in words and dialects than it does with "who went where". All I know is a guy made it all the way from Redondo Beach, CA area to the Cape of Africa, around S. America in a 24 foot "funky little" sailboat a few years back, so it can be done.

reply --

okay ??? . . . well first, why is this relevant to the topis we are discussing?

So . . . after saying your evidence has more to do with "Linguistics" than "who went where" you provide evidence of "who went where". And this person on a boat, did he leave linguistic evidence behind him? These little stories are totally irrelevant. I know people have traveled across the globe -- no one is arguing that, Dennis -- you have missed the point entirely and gone off on a fruitless tangent. No individual will leave a language behind to tell he made the journey. For linguistic clues to be left behind, this is proof of a culture, f a migration, and not a single individual.

Then How did American Indians get from Virginia to Japan and/or Korea? You have the same routes going one way as the other . . .

I think Swedes conquered Russia in the early middle ages. Mongols also conquered Rissia just before the Swedes came on the scene. This is historicly documentable. It is a historic fact. I have no problem with it. I do have a problem with "they did it in ancient times", unless we have evidence of it.

So Koreans are mixed with Norsemen. Okay . . . how is this relevant? I don't see a point to this.

you said --

Also, don't leave out the possibilities of Mexico and Spain. Mexicans already had close ties to Hawaii when Americans [from this country] started commuting. There are Spanish Speaking Philipinos with similar stories.

reply --

What!!!??? hmmm . . . Dennis, I was answering your nonsence where you said Tuckaho and Tokyo had similar beginnings.

You said it was because of migrating people and I said no, that it as a coincidence. Are you saying Spanish in the Philipines went to Japan, heard of the word "Tokyo" and somehow these same Spanish went to Chesepeak Bay and "deposited" the knowledge of this word to the American Indians there, who promptly started using it to describe a local edible tubor? Dennis, this is . . . my God just weird. Are Spanish speaking Philipinos getting on boats and going to Maryland? They'd have the same troubles the Japanese or Koreans had, having to go around Africa, or South America, or the Arctic route. Dennis, the Philipines is home to thousands of languages. Tagalog has borrowed many Spanish words. But no Philipno language is "Spanish" -- that's Latin and came from Spain. Why can't a "Tagalog Speaking" Filipino have your "Legent" of their people going to JApa, eetting teh Word "Tokyo" there, and bring it to Chesepeak Bay? If it was a "Spanish speaking Filipino, it probably happened too late in historic times as I'd wager the Spanish arrived there ling after the word "Tuckahoe" was used by the Indians in Maryland.

Please keep on topic and don't start adding things that are totally irrelevant.

And before you bring it up -- Chesepeak BAy Indians would have as much trouble getting to the Phillipines and they'd have getting to Japan or Korea. And before you bring it up, A SINGLE Chesepeake Bay Pamunkey or any other Indian would NOT have left any linguistic clues behind.I grant it would have been possible for a single individuai to mae the trip -- but no one would ever have heard of it, and iit is very unlikely.

Tdading expeditions happened all the time and words from tribes in NY "might have" been passed to tribes in the Carolinas say -- names of trade goods et cetera. And there was sign language -- of course this occurred! But the word "Tokyo" and the word "Tuckahoe" do NOT have the same root.

THIS was and IS my argument Dennis, you have said nothing to convince me otherwise. PLEASE stay on THIS topic and not this other stuff that has nothing to do with anything at all.

thanks you

vance

[CoheeLady]

Dennis,
The word Tuckahoe is properly pronounced : T'uck-a-hoe. It's origin of the word first appears in Virginia records, along the Eastern Shore & it's Tributaries. The word is still used amoung the Pamunkey Indians. They pronounce it the same way I do. Tuckahoe is probably the English spelling of a word that was used by the Native Americans that the Europeans came into contact with. So the origin of the word is from my home state. :D

By the way Mongolia and Monacan are not the same! Don't even go there. :rolleyes:

Vance,
I agree with your views 100%, and I'm woman enough to say so!
;)

[vance hawkins]

Dennis, I argued with your assertion that Tokyo and Tuckahoe are diffferent spellings of the same word. I was arguing with you that Coree and Korea have the same origin -- that's the extent of it. Address these two points alone please!

Nothing in your writings -- nothing -- proves these two points -- the rest of your rambling is irrelevant.

Of course some people from Asia are possibly related to some people in North America. That doesn't explain how "Tuckahoe" and "Tokyo" are from a common root as you assert. That doesn't explain why "Korea" and "Coree" are from a common root, as you assert.

There is ZERO evidence supporting your conjecture that these words have a similar root.

Of course people traded from the Atlantic to the Pacific and people are related. What has that to do with "Tuckahoe" and "Tokyo" or with the relationship between "Coree" and Korea"? That trade and migrations occurred is a given. Everybody knows it.

Dennis when you post unsubstantiated items and parade them around as "facts" everyone has an obligation and right to call your hand, and see what is in it. Dennis, what you are claimin' is a full house is lookin' more and more like and you don't even hold a pair of deuces in your hands. Next thng you'll be sayin is that Comanche's come from Kamchatka Peninsula in Siberia because both have 3 syllables starting with "K" and "ch" sound . . . oops, I shouldn't have said that . . .

Thanks Cohee Lady. :)

I really hate to be the bad guy, but truth is important to me. It is a good thing to have an active imagination and test things to see if they'll float. I've been tryin' to help you Dennis, and show what research you need to do to prove your point. I've told you more than once. Please PERFORM this research before continuing to make comments that you can not prove, OR mention the conditions required for your assertions to be verified.

For instance you should tell your assumptions, and make sure everyone knows them FIRST. Then proceed with tellin the flaws in your ideas. THEN and ONLY then lay the ground word for your hypothesis. I wouldn't mind you doin that at all! I do it all the time. Dennis, I have had a lot of ideas that later proved to be stupid. When I make a mistake I try to admit to it, but I fail all the time.

All I am sayiin' is put up or shut up, really.That is, give me 100 Japanese words that are similar to Pamunkey language or some other Virginia tribe. I'll listen then. Show me that these words meant the same thing in each language. Anything else you say is irrelevant and I'll keep comin' back here til I die to and I'm only 50 now -- i might last another 20 years or so. Do you really want to keep this goin that long?? ha ha -- Well to get me to shut up Dennis, YOU get out a Japanese/Pamunkee dictionary and get a crackin! You got work to do! . . . :)

vance

[dknicely]

Dennis has chosen to delete his posts. - lkc

[Forest]

On the Eastern Shore of Maryland, tuckahoe (pronounced tuk-a-ho) refers to an edible root that grows along the river edges of the lower shore.
Just thought I'd throw that in, to help muddy the waters.

[CoheeLady]

Hello Forest,
Thanks for your input. The pronunciation of Tuckahoe as you know it, is the same way we say it in Virginia. As far as I'm concerned you didn't muddy up the waters. Thanks again! :)
Sincerely,
CoheesLady

[vance hawkins]

hi Dennis,

I have never questioned your ancesrty nor do I intend to do so. I believe you are who you say you are, more that likely.

I only question i.] That Tuckahoe and Tokyo are words that are "somehow" related. AND ii.] that Coree and Korea are "somehow" related. It is a coincidence that they sound alike and that is all. You have shown no evidence that this is anything more than a coincidence. Such coincidences are very common.

For the third time, you can prove it is more than a coincidence by i.] showing say 100 Japanese or Korean words are very similar to words spoken by the original inhabitants of Virginia and Maryland AND ii.] that these similar sounding words also have similar meaniings. THEN and only then do you have any evidence to support the idea that the words have a common point of origin and only then can you assume that what you have discovered is anything more than a simple coincidence.

For instance, the fact that an Indian Chief was once named "Roman Nose" is NOT evidence of Romans once coming to America. The word "Turkey" as a name of a bird native to the Americas is not evidence that Turks came to America, Dennis. Likewise, a word that sounds a little like Tokyo (ie Tuckahoe) is not evidence the Japanese came to Maryland or Virginia or vice versa, that the Pamunkee or others once visited Japan and/or Korea.

Please address these two points only as these 2 points are all I am questioning and this is all I ever intended to question, to the best of my recollection.

best wishes,

vance

[dknicely]

Dennis has chosen to delete his posts. - lkc

[vance hawkins]

Thank you Forest and CoheeLady. Your comments are enlightening.

Dennis, where are you finding these "definitions"? My Webster's Unabridged Dictonary", the one I keep here at home, and I used it in college, it is a good dictionary. It says under "Tuckahoe" -- 1.] Also called Indian Bread, the edible unerground sclerotium of the fungus porta cocos, found on the roots of trees in the Southern United States. 2.] A Virginian, especially one inhabiting the lowland East of the Blue Ridge. [Algonquin, Va. dial., tockawhoughe it is a globular.] AND Tuckahoe -- A town in Southeast New York.

Well after looking that up I had to look up the word "globular" and see what that was . . . the definition that appears to pertain to "words" says "pertaining to the whole world, world wide, global." I believe that means the original word the modern word "Tuckahoe" originated from was "tock-a-who-u-ghe" -- I'm guessing on the pronounciation here and the syllables.

No mention of "an Eastern King" is made.

When I looked up "Tokyo" it gave no clue as to an original meaning, but it did say "formerly Yeddo, Yedo, and Edo." This makes me think it is not an ancient word, as the place in historic times was even known by another name. Perhaps in Japanese it was the place of an Eastrn King, but there is no evidence that the Algonquin people used it to mean that.

Please when you say a word means something, please Dennis, provide a definition that can be verified as vaild. That is if you have access to a Japanese/English dictionary, quote it. But since Japanese is irrevelant to the study of Early Americans, before quoting it you need to show there is relevance to it, by showing a connection as I suggested, by findiing a hundred words that sound the same and have similar meanings . . .

If you can do that i'll back you up 100 pecent, Dennis.

Coree is not in the dictionary.

vance

[dknicely]

Dennis has chosen to delete his posts. - lkc

[CoheeLady]

To All,
First I want to thank you Vance for your kind words. Also your definitions of Tuckahoe match the ones I have read about.

While at the Pamunkey Indian Reservation's Museum my husband and I watched an educational video regarding the Pamunkey Tribe. This video, if I'm not mistaken was put together by the Tribe. I was pleasantly surprised to hear the word Tuckahoe spoken while listening to this video tape. The word Tuckahoe was pronounced just like I have always said it, Tuck-a-hoe. In my previous post I stated that the pronunciation of tuckahoe had a emphasis on the T'. I unforunately separated the T from the rest of the word, which was incorrect. That's what I get for spending too many late nights on the computer! :)

The English settlers couldn't stand the taste of the tuckahoe root. So they "allowed" the Va. Indians to gather the root, as it was of no value to the English. English food is nasty, what do they know.

Vance, the second definition of tuckahoe that you provided reminded me of something someone once told me. They said, "If your people are from the wrong side of the Va. mountains you shouldn't admit to it." This lady went on to explain that if your ancestors aren't from the right side of the mountains then they will be looked down upon.

Sincerely,
Cohees lady

[vance hawkins]

Thank you Cohee Lady --

All I know about the definition was what it said, really.

I too thought it was interesting that a "Tuckahoe" was a Virginian from a certain region of Virginia. Also I thought what it said about the Algonquin origin of the word was interesting, as below --

[Algonquin, Va. dial., tockawhoughe it is a globular.]

Has anyone seen this spelling before? Since it is in "Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language", 1989 edition. it must be found somewhere. Where did the people who came up with the dictionary find this spelling? What is a "gobular"? Oh, I can ask my wife! She minored in English in college and has been a professional editor. :) I should have thought of that before now.

Dennis I am sorry to hear that. Best of luck to you.

vance

[CoheeLady]

Dear Vance,
You are quite welcome. I wanted to answer your question regarding whether anyone had seen the word Tockawhoughe before. Below I have typed out word for word, the first documentation of "Tockawhoughe". This was written by Captain John Smith, concerning the Indians use of Tuckawhoughe. Please excuse the spelling errors, as I am not correcting Smith's writting.

"The chiefe root they have for food is called Tockawhoughe. It groewth like a flagge in Marishes. In one day a Salvage will gather sufficient for a weeke. These roots are much of the greatnesse and taste of Potatoes. They use to cover a great many of them with Oke leaves and Fern, and then cover all with earth in the manner of a Colepit; over it, on each side, they continue a great fire 24 houres before they dare eat it. Raw it is no better then poyson, and being rosted, except it be tender and the heat abated, or sliced and dryed in the Sunne, mixed with sorrel and meale or such like, it will prickle and torment the throat
extreamely, and yet in sommer they use this ordinarily for bread."

Sincerely,
cohees lady

By the way, since Tockawhoughe is described as being round in shape, that may be the reason it is referred to as "globular". Just a thought. :)