capes and mantles [Archive] - Saponitown Forum

itconani

01-15-2002, 01:40 AM

i heard someone mention an interest in producing capes AKA mantles of feathers.
heres a chance to communicate on a project of importance.

Ive have some photos of produced local capes.
one is recreation using mostly turkey tail and wings feathers. (1980s)
the other is done as a vest with body fluff only. (1930s)
Also, if my memory serves me - i believe a very nice cape was made by a local woman in virginia and gifted to a local chief. i could have sworn it was either the late Leonard Adkins (chickahominy) or John Jeffries (Ocaneechi). i could look into that, its been 10yrs since that one was made.

now, ive got good refernce and access to feather weaving work from Peru. this is a very good model to observe, some basics dont change. and if by chance there was an isolate weaving style here, we dont know about it - rich soil has taken all, with no known extant examples.

so ive got alot of turkey feathers saved for this undertaking - and ive chosen a botanical for making the "web" or frame. now the question is "how insane am i?" do i want o go with small feathers for all, or just for upper and do tail / wing for lower? thoughts or comments?

And....
whos knows about raccoon mantles?
"....all tails hanging by..." (1612)

Linda

01-15-2002, 08:56 AM

I've wondered myself how to plan such a large garment. It would seem that to look right, the cape would need to be made of body feathers, and pretty uniformly sized and colored ones at that. Turkey's a good choice, since there were turkeys used then, and they're commonly available here. I would think that the tail feathers might work along the bottom edge, but even then they'd need to be just certain ones -- the central tail feathers that are very symmetrical.

I've wondered how densely to place these feathers. To see some of the beautiful patterns that feathers make you'd need to put them back onto the netting as closely as they were on the bird. That would take an awful lot of birds. But perhaps this is not necessary.

I would think cording from dogbane would be good for making the mesh. We looked this fall, but never did find a supply of it. Sun offered to grow some. I bet it would grow down by the pond. It seems to be what William Byrd was referring to in his History of the Line. It seems he was near Mecklenburg County, VA, and someone showed him the stalk of a plant that the ladies used to make the little skirts they wore around their waists. I was very happy to find this reference, since at the time I was being bombarded by "expert" re-enactors who were telling me our ladies wouldn't have known how to weave. Humph!

Forest

01-15-2002, 12:11 PM

John Jeffries was gifted a feather cape. I don't recall who made it however.

edstp62

01-15-2002, 05:51 PM

Okay! Now lets look to some old pic's from the Natchez they were sketched wearing one, (probably in swanton's book) also Speck is said to have kearned from the Rappahanocks how to do this,but on a base of cloth. The netting could be done using any arch'l material lots of webbing or netting examples around. raccoon tail mantles I'm not so sure about but they are found illustrated on some shell work. Some of these old mantles were said to have feathers on the inside aswell, I personally would "grade"the feathers for size length and color and try to use smaller at the top,? what would one use for a top band? Look for " lost and Found Traditions in American Indian art' and there is a spiner weaver in the ne, who can help with the cording supplies. I'll try and locate her name. Best to all, Tom.

itconani

01-16-2002, 07:18 PM

good info folks!
on the mantles: ive got a good design for weaving feathers in a certain frame weave to make tight small feather layers.
however, i believe that it might not be necesary to stay with the small body feathers. the cape wraps around the body and has definate right and left sides (veins) as well as a real body to it. early writers described this as appropriate winter wear for the topless Virginians. so we need layers and length. White's cape comes down below waist as does the longer natchez. i would be interested to see that one at Blackfeathers. I cant remember the name of the girl who made it though - she lived in hampton or newport news VA.
the raccoon mantle is fairly simple, but in need of alot of stitching and a good handful of coon pelts. one of these stands at jamestown. Wahunsonacok was described as having one made of pelts sewn together, for a very fine presentation. however, i am not aware of anyone who has produced one of these besides the museum copy. I guess i dont have to mention the "powhatan mantle" in the ashmolean. thats massive and loaded with shells. I do have one other interpretation from VA beach area @ contact period site. its not published, so any one interested in shell / deer hide production let me know. this one has a matching hoody.

Linda

01-16-2002, 07:43 PM

If you get going on that project and would like a little help/company at some point, let me know.

Linda

01-16-2002, 07:53 PM

If either of you can scan any pictures, send them to me as an attachment and I will upload them here.

Tom

01-18-2002, 04:18 PM

Hello All, yes I would like to see the other mantle that you mention, the 'hoody" sounds simalar to the Saura womans cape. Re the feather mantles, have you heard about the ocellated turkey's from Mexico that have some sky blue blotches on thier breast feathers? I have a diagram of a "mountain Cherokee" upright loom, would you like a copy of this anyone? Also I have recieved the info from Britian, "Tradescant Rarities" and there is some good stuff there, unfortunatly the shirt is from farther north than Va. but there still is some good references to a mantle that was published once in the 1800s, I'll check into that and get to it for this project. best to All,Tom.

itconani

01-21-2002, 11:24 AM

good documents from britain are always a pleasure. also interseted in your "mountain cherokee" loom. the other mantle - ill have to get copy of documents from DHR, they should have them. this mantle was from the "king of great neck" in the Great Neck area Virginia Beach, ie Chesapiok. The only diagram i have seen on this is at the Marine Science museum in Vabeach where some of the collection is housed. so DHR should have a copy, since it was a virginia dig.

Tom

01-21-2002, 02:30 PM

Hello All, for good examples of netting check Prehistoric Plies by Sandra Clemens Scholtz, the examples are from the Ozark dry caves but still usable for this topic. Buck I'll get into the article from Britian on a topic setting that way we can look at it and others may want to save it for a project for thier own making, Linda can we do some illustrations there? The natchez capes were fist painted by a frenchman, I'll check and send the info. on to you Linda. Best to All Tom.

Linda

01-21-2002, 09:31 PM

Sorry to take so long with this. I just got back in town, big weekend. Here's photos that itconani sent me to upload:

http://www.saponitown.com/images/Mattaponimantle.jpg
Mattaponi mantle

http://www.saponitown.com/images/Monacanvessel.jpg
Monacan vessel

http://www.saponitown.com/images/Monacanvessel2.jpg
Monacan vessel #2

http://www.saponitown.com/images/powhatanmantle.jpg
Powhatan mantle

[This message has been edited by Linda (edited 01-21-2002).]

Tom

01-22-2002, 01:27 PM

Hello All, very nice to see some pic's up here, I'll have to try and get some of those images that I've been refering to and send them on to you. The Natchez capes were painted or sketched by Le Page du Pratz in the early 1700s, the other picture? is in Robert beverley's "History and Present State of Va. an image there said to be only published once so far? I have a very bad xerox of a Pamunkey cape probably in the frank Speck collections somewhere, I at one time I used to exchange letters with the late Claude Medford jr. the Choctaw anth' and proffesional artist from La. This week I'll get into the local Univ. library to do some looking and send what I get. Best to all, Tom

Linda

01-28-2002, 08:19 PM

I'm putting Tom's photo up here as well as on "Family Lore", it may be out of context there. Does anybody recognize this pattern?

http://www.saponitown.com/images/etpfamily5.jpg

Tom

02-19-2002, 01:26 PM

Hello all, this next posting is from"The virginia Indians in the 17th Century" by Charles C. Willoghby; American Anthropology; 9- 1907.
"Likewise her mayd fetcht hera mantell which they call "pattawas' which is like a side cloake, made of blew feathers so artefically and thick sowed togither thatis seemed like a deep purple satteen, and is very smooth and sleek".
So,, what do y'all think this one is made of? I can tell you that I have done a little research into the netting methods in the south and have read on one type having knots 4mm apart!
Please consider the current concept of netting!?
Best to all Tom.

Tom

05-03-2002, 03:23 PM

Hello Everyone!
Recently I picked up a copy of American Indian Art Magazine Spring 2002.
If some of you are still interested in making feather mantles I'd very much suggest that you look into this, at first glance I would have called the materials shown there from Turkey Mountain traders as "Oceanic" but apparently it is not.
I think that this needs some very serious considerartion! Tom.

Linda

05-03-2002, 07:43 PM

Hope I don't sound too dense, but what's "Oceanic?" Is that as in Pacific Rim? What are you seeing that's important?

Tom

05-03-2002, 09:59 PM

Linda , hello everyone , Oceanic is hawaiian, polynesian, maorian etc. "Ya' know Islanders man"!
What is important is the fact that there is connections between the great lakes and the southeast. These capes from this magazine are very important items that broaden the view of what we know of Aboriginal feather work and probably we can draw similarities between them and what was done in the south.
Therefore if we look at impressions on clay sherds and compare them to the fabrics from the reverse side of these objects (capes)the methods used are probably very simalar to woven bags and netted capes , chances are that it was probably a wide spread method of producing a feather mantle. So personally this is very exciting for a material culture fanatic.
Best to all Tom.

spilleddi

12-29-2005, 01:50 AM

Tom, I have been enjoying your posts on eastern regalia styles. I live in Oregon, so the only styles I am familiar with are from the Columbia River and NW coast, and I wear the local style when dancing at powwows. I hope to eventually make a SE style outfit.

I’m looking for pictures and descriptions of feather mantles (same thing as a cape?), as I have decided to undertake such an endeavor. The pictures on this thread won’t open. Could they be reposted?

I am not trying to recreate a historic piece, but would like something in the SE Siouan or Powhatan style (I am descended from both) that I could dance with. A friend of mine with roots from the SE is making a short turkey feather cape on netting. She had heard only high ranking people could wear long capes. I have seen a picture of women in long feather capes from the Delaware Indians at a museum, and was told that anyone could wear long capes. Also saw a picture from a few years back from a Haliwa Saponi powwow of a woman with a whole turkey skin draped over her shoulders. Anyone seen any contemporary feather capes, long or short? Are these worn at powwows, or only for certain occasions by certain people? I don’t want to be investing my time in something that would be inappropriate to wear.

I am familiar with Hawaiian and other Polynesian feather work, and figure that the same methods would be used for a SE coast Indian style cape. I’m not such a purist as to do it on netting, I was thinking some kind of cloth that wouldn’t stretch to much or be to hot, maybe felt or a thin Pendleton wool, or canvas? I usually do feather work on felt, but I haven't tried a full sized cape yet. Then I would back the stitching with cotton so they wouldn’t come lose.

Also am trying to figure out how it would be shaped, just a rectangular cape (like a NW button blanket), or flared at the bottom (like a Hawaiian cape)?

As for feathers, I was thinking turkey body feathers, and tail feathers on the bottom. But turkey feathers here are scarce, and Oregon turkeys have white tipped feathers. But I do have an abundance of white and gray Canada goose feathers, and mallard feathers.
Ideas?

Shad

collins

01-01-2006, 04:05 AM

Mallard feathers were used by the Saponi especially the green head feathers.
I wonder if it would be possible to take the skins with the feathers still attached of mallard heads or whole skins and sew them together ends to ends like a patchwork until you get the length and width of a mantle? Then to take 2 whole wings with feathers still attached, extended and then the upper edges of the wings sewn to the top portion. The tips of the wings would point outward. I know this probably isn't traditional, but just an idea.

Barb

01-02-2006, 11:53 PM

Tom Said: I have a diagram of a 'mountain Cherokee' upright loom, would you like a copy of this anyone?"

I would ove one Tom since beadwork is my thing. :)

I was reading in a book the other night and they made a very slight hint about Cherokee Beadwork. It was in Horrace Goodhue's book on beadworkn "Indian Bead-Weaving Patterns". All it said was, " Among the Eastern Cherokee (North Carolina) all the beaded belts that I saw were made with the Peyote weave (13 bead wide) using large 'Pony' beads. "

That's all there is mentioned in the book about Cherokee as far as I can tell. I have had the book for years and years but never really read it until the other night.

I might start doing some research on Cherokee beadwork some time this year. Since I am such a novice about all this Saponitown stuff, is there a certain geographical area that I should research? Or should I just research Cherokee beadwork or what do you suggest? I am still trying to learn about this Saponitown concept so please do cut me some slack if I sound rather ignorant about the whole thing. :)

I'm trying to read the back posts as much as I can to get the concept. :)

Let me know what I should concentrate on. :)
Barb G

Barb

Tom

01-03-2006, 06:34 PM

Well the feather capes is a huge undertaking since the little facts about them reamin scattered, but netting was used rather thatn a base , or atleast that the theory, but it makes sence because of the heat and wieght of a cape. The amllard heads are really a great idea since there is doc's re. this topic, aswell the western Sioux recognize the mallard as the herald of spring, the green head the element.
The beadwork of the southeast is every where in museums etc, I'll try and post some links to this, and try and help every way possible... have to run now....

spilleddi

01-04-2006, 02:30 AM

Yep, looks like a small cape on netting it will be. I thought about the Mallard heads, I had been saving a bunch for a California Indian elder that uses them in their outfits. Unfortionately the things disintigrate after about a year from bugs, all the green feathers come right of the skin, and we haven't yet figured out how to stop it. Salting and freezing doesn't work. I'm going try and use flea shampoo to see if that will kill em.

Something I found on feather capes from a Pequot website.

"Consider the extraordinary turkey feather mantle made by Nanticoke artist Courtney Anderson, on display in the gallery on Daily Life. Early English writers frequently remarked on the mantles worn by high-status Native men in southern New England, and described them as having been woven so tightly that no light would seep through if they were held up. The feathers, they wrote, were recognizable as turkey feathers. A textile expert found archaeological fragments and a crafts tradition of using turkey feathers to make clothing in the southeast, but the southeastern technique--stripping the veins from turkey feathers, wrapping them around a twine base, and making a kind of feather yarn from which textiles could be woven--made it unlikely that the turkey feathers would have been recognizable as such. Instead, Anderson, drawing on his skill, imagination, and experience, along with his own reading of the documents, determined how he believed the mantles must have been made: he used plant fibers to weave a backing, then attached overlapping rows of feathers. Is this an exact reproduction of the turkey feather mantles worn in southern New England in the early contact period? Maybe not, but it feels right, and it adds much to our understanding."

Tom

01-06-2006, 01:22 PM

I to have been messing with amllard heads and need to do some research etc, but I think that I may just remove the feathers, I made a pheasant neck bag years ago, like 20 and it's still fine , I used fullers earth to draw out the oils etc, aswell these may ahve been just a stiff rim on the garment, I'd like to see an image of the new england stuff.
I have seen feathered yarn from the ozark dry caves, very musc like what was being used by the ancestral Hopi people.
I think that we should search for this info, and postas much as we can here.
I'd like to even make a small one for a doll-figure etc.
Thanx for the post,

spilleddi

01-08-2006, 09:50 PM

Anyone been to the new Indian museum in Washington DC? Was just in DC 2 months ago visiting my cousin, spent a day there. The Pamunkey tribe has an exibit. The have a pair of turkey feather covered moccasins. Can't see the moccassins, just feathers, and the they are in every which direction. Then they have a picture of a fellow wearing a grey and white goose feather necklace. Its real thick, and again the feathers stick out all over, not smooth.

dovelady

01-10-2006, 04:36 PM

I thought it was just my AOL doing its thing again. But I can't get the pics of the capes to show up or open for me either. :( I'm having a lot of trouble getting pics to open with aol.

It's interesting that you talk about the Island peoples and their capes. When I was reading this string I was reminded of the time I went to Hawaii several years ago. They had capes too but I can't remember if they were made with feathers or other natural things. I was going to suggest it might be worth checking into to see if they are similar or not.

Tom

01-16-2006, 02:27 PM

This topic of feathered capes is a tough one to research,very little has actually been retained so it takes some digging, but the digging pays off.
In the British Museum is a cape that is very close to several others that were featured in "Tribal Arts" mag. 2002. (search the british museum.. go to compass on thier home page and type in feathered capes).
Theere appears to be several styles of these capes, those on netting, those on fabric and possibly those that were woven directly into the fabric as it was being woven and the garment shaped.
The netted ones I would guess are most correct for the NC/VA area.
As a side note these last ones would be very light wieght have a movement not found in other article and were the original formof cape worn that later developed into the dance capes, different from the shawls used today.
lastly it could be that all 3 or more types of feather capes that we know of may have been used in the southern areas.

Tom

01-16-2006, 02:29 PM

The British museums cape.
www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/
next click on compass, on the top right in the seacrh window type "feather cape" it shows as number 7.!

lynellarainhawk

01-16-2006, 05:28 PM

Tom and all,

Thank you. That cape is most beautiful. I was wondering, about the turkeys, I've had guys up here give me their skins so I can use the feathers for this sort of thing. Generally it is a trade of elk meat or recipes for the skin with feathers. I usually pluck all the feathers. It seems though, in my brain, couldn't the skins be conditioned and tanned so they are still pliable like any finished hide? Then one could use the entire bird, not waisting anything. Swatches could be sewn on to a thin lining fabric or light weight cotton one with sinew or heavy duty thread. I forget who said it earlier on, but yes Hobby Lobby, I think Michaels and Wal-mart all cary the feathers already sewn into a satin binding and you purchase it by the yard. Though, I have never gotten Turkey feathers that way, only Pheasant, Guinnea Hen and then those yellow and brown hackles. Also, I get Pheasant skins at Fly Tying shops, you know, for fly fishing. They sell a lot of that type of thing at those places. If I come across some of these type of things on-line I'll let you all know the links.

As far as the beading goes, I was saddened, I spent the entire weekend shopping for just the right color of velvet, or satin to bead a panel for my mocs and could not find any of the right color. I was going to combine beadwork and embroidery on them. Now I'm thinking I'll probably get out the loom and attack it with just beads. I thought fabric would add a texture that would be awsome, but I just couldn't find anything to my liking. Well, any way, THANK YOU ALL, AGAIN! Lynella.

spilleddi

01-18-2006, 01:53 AM

I've been trying to find a net backing for a small practice cape. I got a nylon mesh landry bag from Walmart, don't know if that will work. It does stretch a bit, but I figure I could back it with cotton to keep the shape. But its big enough to use for a whole small cape. They also had landry bags made out of a breathable material, real thin with tiny holes everywhere.

Haven't found any other netlike materials yet, and I have never made one. Don't know yet what material I would use to make one, and I do not plan on making bark twine. I could find someone to teach me to make a fish net out of fishing line, but the holes would have to be mighty small for what I'm thinking of doing.

That leads to how I would attach the feathers. I am used to sewing feathers firmly onto a backing with a needle and thread, to attach feathers to a netting, I suppose that would take one individual very well tied knot per feather. Just thinking out loud. I can see thise will take a lot of experimentation.

Thanks for all the ideas folks.

Tom

01-18-2006, 04:04 PM

I'll try and answer all the question here;
Lynella, try looking for some used clothing at second hand stores for good velvet, etc, I have found great stuff old wollen jackets that are very similar to trade wool, nice 100% cotton velvet.
Spilleddi; The capes and mantles should be done on a frame I'd sday, I cannot see it done any other way, a net would be made inside of a strong strand frame inside of a fame like used for traditional tanning, that is 4 poles tied into a square and then heavy thread or string to form the shape of the garment and the nest would be woven in the thread frame once the ten is done start at the bottom of the net tying the feathers into place, at every knot a feather would be tyed using a seperate thread , the quill end of the feather may be softened in warm water to bend the quill and then tyed into place, ????makes sence to me...
here is a link to making nets
www.bertaut.com/netmaking.html

Tom

01-18-2006, 04:08 PM

For the net take note of the needle and the gauge, you'll probably have to make both, the gauge is simple the neelde maybe not, anyway the width of the holes in the net should be similar to the ratio of the feathers used, plan or arrange the feathers out on a paper for the width and depth etc, and that should give you the width of the gauge.

Tom

01-18-2006, 04:32 PM

After I posted the 2 previous items I have found the following article...

1994 Spring
Native Americans in Arkansas
PAGE 7

« Back to 1994 Spring Issue Articles

Cherokee Women Had Important Influence in Daily Life of Tribe

ARKANSAS TERRITORY — As Cherokee children of the 1820s sit around the wood stoves in the kitchens of their farmhouses on the Cherokee Reservation between the White and Arkansas rivers, they learn the history of their tribe. Their mothers tell them how important women and children were to the tribe in the old days when all the tribe lived east of the Mississippi River.

In the 1500s, the Spanish explorers Hernando de Soto and Juan Pardo, met women chiefs with “considerable power among the southeastern Indians. Cherokee beloved women” were people of influence; like Nancy Ward, who spoke in council meetings and conducted negotiations.

The Cherokees were a matrilineal tribe, which means daughters could inherit things from their mothers. So women could own property separately from their husbands, such as a house that a daughter inherited from her mother.

The matrilineal clans owned the agricultural fields they farmed, and women often sold food and other goods to the European explorers and settlers.

Work among the Cherokees was divided between women and men. The work year was divided into two seasons — the warm and the cold. During the warm season, women grew food plants in the kitchen gardens near their houses and grew corn in the larger agricultural fields. Men fished and did some hunting during the warm season. The cold season was the main times for men to hunt, while the women collected wild foods and firewood.

Besides growing the food plants, women ran the household, cooked, and made baskets and pottery. They ground corn into meal in large wooden pestles or bowls, by pounding it with a mortar.

They also cured animal skins, after the men had dressed the skins in a preliminary way. The women often smoked the hides and sometimes used natural dyes to color them yellow, red, green, blue, or black. The women then sewed the skins into clothing, using an awl and sinew like a needle and thread.

Cloth for clothing was also made by the women. They wove, twined, and plaited plant and animal fibers with their fingers into pouches and sashes. On an upright loom ‘with suspended threads they Wove capes, called mantles, of buffalo, rabbit, or opossum hair or the fiber from plants such as nettle, hemp, mulberry, or cane.

Sometimes they made a very light and warm cape by first weaving a net cloth, then attaching to the net small turkey, swan, or duck feathers.

Children helped the women collect wild vegetables, berries, fruits, nuts, and seeds. There were some wild foods available every season of the year. Little girls also helped with housework, tended the gardens, and learned to make pottery and baskets.

Boys learned to hunt by going hunting with the men. Boys liked to compete in bow-and-arrow shooting contests and in foot races. They learned to play “chunkey,” a game based on throwing spears at a rolling, wheel-shaped stone. When they were older, they played a ball game that was an important part of town life.

lynellarainhawk

01-18-2006, 04:33 PM

Thank you Tom! Maybe this Sunday I can get down to Goodwill. Glenn will be watching the ball game.

At fabric stores and Wal-mart they have a fabric called Tulle. It is a very fine guage nylon netting, generally used for wedding gowns & veils, sachets, the little pouches of rice thrown at weddings. I would double it though to make it stronger, to hold the weight of the feathers, and it comes in different colors. It is very inexpensive. Tom laying it out first as to how you would want it is a very good idea. Well, gotta' go for now. Love & Light & Thanks Again! Lynella.

Tom,

Thank you for adding that last post. I just read it. I sure would like to figure out how to spin plant fibers into a weavable material. I'll have to check around on that. That is very interesting. I found something the other night on-line about the different things that were used as dyes. I'll have to see if I can find that and post the link at least.:)

Tom

01-18-2006, 04:47 PM

here is a very interesating article and has some nice information that will apply to several threads.

http//ethnohistory.dukejournals.org/cgi/reprint/52/4/727.pdf

dovelady

01-18-2006, 07:39 PM

Hi Lynella, I didn't know you beaded. So do I. I'm so sorry that you coudn't find the right velvet. I love beading on velvet it is sooooo soft and comforting. Have you tried looking online for some? I know that I don't usually buy stuff online because of security reasons with credit cards etc. But what I do is usually get their physical address and call and then send them a check or give the info over the phone.

I would love to see your mocs when you get done if you have a way of taking a picture. :)

lynellarainhawk

01-19-2006, 09:30 PM

Barb,

Hey! Thank you! Yes, I bead, but not as much or as good as you do! I have so many hobbies that Beading isn't always on the top of my list. I was thinking about checking on-line, but I have to match the velvet to one of three specific colors of skin. So, it's been being a pain! It's really good to hear from you! Love & Light, Lynella.

dovelady

01-19-2006, 10:59 PM

Lynella

Thank you for your kind words about my beadwork.

Oh yea. I totally understand about trying to match things up. I do that with my beads all the time. I go buy some, get them home and find they don't match like I want them to. So, now I take them with me to see what goes with the color I have picked.

One of my fav things to do is bead on velvet. I don't usually do a lot of applique, but when I do, I love to do it on velvet. The velvet is so soft and lucious and kind of comforting in soft sort of way. It's like getting a hug for your hands.

I hope you find the right one for your mocs. I know they'll be absolutely beautiful when you finish.

lynellarainhawk

01-20-2006, 12:14 AM

Dovelady,

I have been googling shells of the East Coast and found a couple I like. I was looking up different kinds of shells and found myself looking at beads. I found a lot of cool history and want to post a link or two here for Tom and All.

A photo of "Moctezuma's feathered claok"
http://www.thebeadsite.com/FRO-SPI.htm

hopefully that works. If not, I'll try it again tomorrow. This is a whole essay on "The Spanish Impact on Traditional Beading in America."

Next; http://www.thebeadsite.com/bbi-jda.htm
It's another Essay.

http://www.thebeadsite.com/MG9-2-07.htm I have been there and never saw this!

http://www.thebeadsite.com/CBR-CPO.html "Other Research Projects" Scroll down, theres one on Early Calonial.

http://www.thebeadsite.com/mg101-01.html "America's Oldest Beads."

I was on here for 2 hours! Love & Light, Lynella.

dovelady

01-20-2006, 01:00 PM

Thanks for the links. I went to the site and read some, but will have to read the rest later as I have some things I have to get done. But this one link..didn't work ..What was it?

http://www.thebeadsite.com/MG9-2-07.htm I have been there and never saw this!

I have been to Peter's site a long time ago, but have never taken the time to really read it. I know he was hailed as one of the best experts in the field. Unfortunately he passed a way a while back. But he left a great body of work behind him.

I can imagine that it took hours or even days to make some of those beads early beads.

dovelady

01-20-2006, 01:21 PM

I googled 'feather mantle' and got mostly beautiful Hawaiian capes. Then I googled 'feather cape' and haven't looked at all of them yet, but I did see this one on this site. It is obviously contemporary, but it might give some people some ideas about making one. This one is done on hide and looks like the feathers are individually attached.

https://www.blackfeetnationstore.com/apparel.html

I'm off to see if I can find any more.

Re: netting for feather cape. What about the kind of netted cloth that they used to make 'muscle shirts' out of . They were a kind of netted cloth, hmm. You see it in sporting stuff all the time. It us sometimes used for pockets or even lining. If you have a large fabric store they may carry it.

Do you know what I mean? I don't know what it is called though.

dovelady

01-20-2006, 01:26 PM

http://www.uiowa.edu/~nathist/Site/mesk.html

This is another site with a small cape. It also has some other great things to look at.

lynellarainhawk

01-29-2006, 04:46 PM

Dovelady,

Thank you for those links. I'll have to check them out. The one of mine above that didn't work, darn-it, is a Wampum Belt at the Denver Museum of Natural History. The thing is I think it's from Jamestown, but I'm not possetive on that. The site led me there because I saw there was stuff from Jamestown, so clicked on it and this was among those things. Its beautiful purple Wampum.
Now I'll go check out your links on those capes & mantles. Thank you. Lynella.

spilleddi

02-26-2006, 03:38 PM

Found a picture of a feather cloak made by Mollie Adams, a Mattaponi Indian, in the 1940's. I don't know how to put this on to the forum, but the picture is located in a book called The Southeastern Indians by Chales Hudson, on page 268. The cloak looks like its mostly made of wild turkey feathers.

Also there is a picture of a Cherokee wild turkey feather cloak on page 97 of America's Fasinating Indian Heritage by Reader's Digest. These books belong to a friend of mine and she will attempt to try and post these pictures when she can. She is also working on a feather cape.

Shad

fromOntario

03-05-2006, 09:08 PM

Of course they would have know how to weave! It's like saying they wouldn't have known how to harvest. hmpt.
I know (what little I can tell you, I could pass you on to folks up here.) that further north it is thought that folks wove cedar for clothes etc. problem is, lots of stuff decomposes.
Anyways, more to stuff/clothes people made than just leather, furs and feathers. (although that is all nice).
Re weaving, they had rugs, stuff made from cattails, other things/clothing.

I love it when "experts" feel they know everything. how often do people go to "source"? (going to source, lead me to where I am a few years later, finding out about myself. (wondering since I was a kid) things can come full circle.)
Any thing (which I humbly say is a LITTLE) I can help with on certain things that would have been done kept in longhouses, etc. skills I would be happy to share. ( I used to work as an interpreter at a pre "contact" village up here in Ontario, tastefully done. I learned different skills etc.)

My 2 cents.
Take care,
D

[

Tom

03-06-2006, 12:58 PM

The feather capes were supposedly still worn up until 1850 in the southeast, really late considereing what has been printed or is known about them, recently a friend of mine had told me that a mutual friend knew peole (years ago) who remembered them being made.
These people are amongst my trusted friends and I'll call them and ask what it is they were told.
There is several types of construction mentioned and I'll post what friends tell me after I get thier okay to post it here.
also I would suggest that anyone interested in feathers look at what is called a "Royal palm " turkey, snow white feathers with jet black tips!. Once trimmed they would look like small eagle feathers.

dovelady

03-07-2006, 12:07 AM

Oh Tom :)

Thank you for sharing the info on the Royal Palm Turkey feathers.

I did a google "image" search and it came up with some beautiful pictures. They even had images of a couple NA masks made with them.

Those are just beautiful and the bird is very handsome with his feathers all spread and proud.

Tom

03-07-2006, 03:26 PM

hey Barb, glad that you liked the point of interest, these birds are really a treasure, better than anything that can be painted, etc.

janette

03-16-2006, 10:58 AM

Hello Tom, Linda and all.

This is my first time to post and thrilled to make contact. If the cape project is coming along thought I could possibly help. I have a Pottery company and we use a lot of feathers to burn on to the finished works. So i have a good source for wholesale feathers. If you want to get the feathers in the wild then just disregard. Retail they are costly but I can get them wholesale. I have turkey tail feathers (a hand full) and will send them to whoever is constructing the capes etc. There are all types of feathers available but probably not the rare types you have discussed. There are some with natural colors like mccaw(sp?) and all sorts of dyed colors.

Now about construction. I have helped make a Old Time Sioux roach and wondered if the way the porcupine quills are attached could work to attach the feathers to the cape. Also the way we make shalls is similar not to mention tobacco ties. Anyway the use of half hitch for attatchment is used for all three of these.

The way you wish to proceed may be so different and if you have any samples or come up with a solution I would love to know. Here is my thoughts on problem solving attachment of feathers.

If the quill had a half hitch wrapped around it bend about an inch to hold the loop to the quill and then attach to the mesh the same as fringe for a shall. I am a visual person and suspect this verbal explination may not compute but I could make a small sample of what I am talking about and send with the turkey feathers and other samples of feathers I have on hand.

My spiritual tradition is Lakota but my blood is mixed and have sent a request for my history on this site. 4 of my great greats are from Nottoway, Prince Edward County starting in 1750 so I am in search of them. Also my Elders say the tradition I live came from your area. There is a connection.

Come back to me if any of the above is of interest.

Janette