center seam moc's

[Tom]

Hello All, I thought that it would be easier for me just to sign in as who I signout as!The issue of foot wear is always an important one, often it has been said that another person can tell where the other is from by the style of thier moccasins. When I lived in the northern part of Alberta, at first all Cree moccasins looked the same until a friend started pointing out the finer details. And I think that we should try and do the same here, I have found many types of center seam moccasins, the gathering was different from another, the heel was sewn oddly?, on and on... so I'm asking should we come up with a moccasin pattern for the Yesah and /or the Eastern Blackfoot people? We know of the 3 arrows pattern and that allows us something of what I'm getting at,but lets be able to identify each other not only by our tattoos etc but also by everything we do, beyond moccasins aswell, hope to hear from y'All. Tom.

[itconani]

Tom -
this data may be hard to come by as exact as you're interested in. unless there are more notes from missouri or northern groups who've left? i dont know them.
but here, we see the earliest documentation coming from the written descriptions of smith and strachey on clothing. their reference is primarily on coastal algonquian, but it is well thought that dress was very similiar through region. other visuals come from white, who shows center seam mocs - but the original is now lost. DeBry's engravings of white work depict a straight center seam with a turned up cuff.
similiar more contemporary sources include both cherokee and creek, but some variation is bound to apply. I have a pattern for several southern styles, and have had good success in producing them.
the ones i have now are from a pattern a friend of my ggrandfathers. they have a centerseam sewn bunched near toe with a small tab protruding, half way up the stitch changes to a running stitch.
id be happy to send you copies if you'd like.
Archeologically, we have very little to work with. although at Saura town site NC there was a young woman who had an enormous amount of beadwork - shell on her shoes. recreations have made that design a rosette - but i think that may be due to the craftsman's western background. any one else have input on shoe wear?

[Tom]

Hello, Buck I have sent a photo to Linda of my Mother's 1st cousin wearing center seam moccasins but it will need some work to really see what they are,my cousin did remeber wearing them aswell. I contacted one of N.A. best quill workers and we are staring an exchange, we have done so in the past abit but nothing specific. I may be able to get him to join in here. He did a very interesting study that he told me about,(on these moccasins) and many variations are out there of this type of foot wear, but I think that we should address this. Yes ofcourse I would like to have a copy of your pattern Buck, I have one pattern and photos from the Ok. Cherokee/ Shawnee if you'd like to trade? The shell work from the SAura Woman sounds very ineteresting do you think that we could get pic's for the site.? BTA, Tom

[itconani]

Tom -
we should exchange addresses.
i can give you what i have from NC museum of history. met with the curator about Saura town woman's attire.
also pattern for mocs and copy of photos of ggrandads buddy wearin his.
i have an article written about that style as well with alot of insight on "how to"s.

best info from that site is at NC arch's in raleigh. however, the link in the beginning of the forum to ocanneechi has a CD rom of the "ocaneechi town". that is fantastic if you can get a copy - Windows user only.

i would like to see your pattern - email me on the address issue, ive got a good copy machine.

[Linda]

I've been interested in the Saura woman's clothing also. I saw the re-creation ten years ago when I first moved to the East. I remember feeling disquieted about the display. This was long before I had any idea I would ever know any details about the "Indians in our family," and certainly had no idea that they derived from these parts.

It seemed a bit macabre at the time that they had "remade" this person from her bones. I don't know if it wasn't that well done, or if it was just the first time I'd seen it. Or were they also displaying her bones alongside? Maybe that's what seemed disrespectful. I can't remember. Maybe it was just my imagination conjuring up the bones.

Last spring I went with my mom to that museum and was trying to find that display again. I was told that it was on loan, but the bronze statue on the steps of the museum was of her. Funny how radically our perceptions can change. When I saw her this time, I thought she looked lovely and was very interested in her clothes -- haute couture.

Later that summer I talked to an archeologist at Town Creek and it was from her that I learned that this was the Saura woman, she was Siouan, and the re-creation was probably the closest approximation of what women in this region would have worn in the winter. (I personally don't believe we went around half nekkid all winter with a feather cape on top, sorry. Anybody I'm related to would have ached all winter and worn LAYERS.)

[itconani]

On loan! ha - more like falling apart.
the original was done of a poor quality using paster casts of the bones. the bronze was done in hopes to preserve the work that was done. the garments are in the vaulted storage of the museum - waiting on a "new" body, funding which is waiting on funding.

debate on the presentation -
some parts im happy with, and feel are fairly accurate. others i feel are way to western influenced in recreation (artist was from montana and skilled in plains reproductions) but i also think the evidence points to this being a special garment, one that was made for a special transition (marriage, death). there are Hundreds of Metal bells on this dress, and huge pieces of copper and brass. for 1640 piedmont NC, this is a very socially, culturally, and monetarily expensive dress for a young lady.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Greetings:
I have been wearing moc's for many years as I have a condition called PKD and I retain a lot of fluid. My feet swell up at times so bad I can not walk and even on my best of days I still have to use a cane. The moc's are comfortable and seem to give with my feet. I would like to purchase a real pair apposed to the store bought kind. Can anybody point me in the right direction?
BTW.....also searching for the name of a root that can be brewed much like a tea that helps take away the fluid. My mother knew an Indian lady out in Washington State that supplied her with this ground root but never told her what it was. Mother would brew it like tea and sweeten it with honey.I am a diabetic but there are several good artificial sweetners. If anybody knowes what root this could be or where I could send for moc's please email me.

Brenda @ bj04@mediaone.net

[Tom]

Hey Brenda, 1st we need to know what colour the ground root looked like and what it tatsted like I hvae friends that know of a simalar sounding root, I know that you could get it near you if you can better tell me more about it. As for the mocc's i'll keep your name handy and if I get some good smoke tan hides done I'll send for your foot pattern etc, but anyone here may be able to help you sooner than I.best to all. Tom

[Tom]

Hello All,let me clarify some concerns here. The main differences that I have seen with this style of moccasin is that 1 the seam goes under the toe of the moccasin and shows very little puckering,2 the puckering is all on top of the foot and can be either very fine or very coarse. These seams can be left raw or have some very fine decorations on them, also some of the latter type have a gathering thread or lace around the outside of the pattern and then drawn up to create a puckered area, sometimes this thread is left quite long and left inside the toe. My concern is what type should we try and develope for ourselves to use? Input please anyone. Best To All, Tom.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Tom, As best I can remember the root was a bittersweet orange in color and it had been gound fine. The Indian woman was from the desert area of Arizonia but had married and moved to the NW. She would go home on visits and bring a pouch of this root back. After leaving the mountains of WV my folks settled along the Puyallup River at the edge of The Puyallup Indian Reservation.
The root was brewed much like the common household tea and sweetened to taste. It acted as a diaretic, a pain reliever, and muscle relaxer all in one.
Brenda

[Tom]

Hello Brenda, my best reply is to try and locate someone from that area (where your family lived out west)that could help supply you with that root. Perhaps the ladies family that your folks got it from. I don't recognize an orange tea although there are several that are red with the a simalar result. You have to be very careful with herbal medicines, if that doesn't work try and find a local herbalist , perhaps from Qualla or Catawbas. Also you may want to try and do some research into that topic, but be very careful when harvesting such things. One medecine to try is sweet flag but like I say look into it first before you take anything, it's latin name is acorus calamus and is used around the world for many things.You can perchase it it health food stores or herbal stores, if you find it helps or you want some from up here I can try and get it for you, but it will also grow down there too. Best to All, Tom.

[Linda]

This is a great center seam moccasin pattern. It seeeems to be a native pattern, it doesn't use any European conventions, like rulers, etc. It's from the re-enactor's yahoo group, NativeList. Hope the link works. Let me know if it doesn't.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NativeList/files/Patterns/mocs2.jpg

[itconani]

link took me to a yahoo group, and told me i wasn't a member. oh well.

[collins]

Mecou, would like to know any good visual sites for rolling feathers and attachment to head bands in a Native Southeastern/Saponi fashion. Bila huk oho!

[itconani]

Tom & others interested:
i dug up some patterns to send you snail mail
on southeastern center seems from an old primitive tech bulletin. i also plan to include a few articles with digrams on twisted rabbitskin blankets (noted as being in our area), vegetable fibered mocs / sandles from Mammouth cave KY (closer to us than examples from Southwest!), and corn husk mocs. you should be familiar with twining techniques and cordage qualities. ive had success with several of the moc patterns and now prefer centerseams to all others, and even a favorite amongst those. the corn husk biz is hard - but very cool. ive only done a small basket plug for a quiver (like debry). And the rabbits? well ive tried using the $1 rabbit skins - but they just dont stay twined after being chemical tanned. you really need braintan or fresh rabbit skins - and i just havent aquired enough rabbits ever to make much of anything garment size using a twined fury cordage. now i guess squirrel could be used - and that may be an alternative. each squirrel season there are a dozen available hides here and alot in hollister. there is still a tradition of tacking squirrel skins to house / barn sides down there - kind of a trophy held over from when i suppose they were useful as pelts...

[Linda]

I meant to email that pattern to you two. Did I forget? I'd need to ask permission to put it up here. Or you could sign onto the NativeList yahoogroup.

Re-enactors can be quite a resource for this sort of thing, though of course, they don't "do" our people, since there is the "public nudity" issue, hahaha. But I do recommend joining and browsing their files and joining in the conversation.

I hope you can find some pocoon root, Itconani. (I was just going to shorten that to IT, but you might think I took you for part of the Adams family).

A few days ago I smacked the back of my head onto a floor that had just shapeshifted into concrete just for me and I have been free associating ever since. No short term memory to speak of for the next week or two, but everything's making me giggle.

Last night I saw a show on "How to Make a Mummy" and this spritely super nerd showed how to put a long nail into a cadaver's nose, pound on it with a big block until you poke a whole in the skull, then you take a coat hanger and swirl around inside until everything turns liquid. Then all you have to do is turn the cadaver over and his brains will pour out of his nose. I don't think I'll ever forget that show.

Anyway, about the pocoon root. I figure this summer at our campout, when we're all in swimsuits all day anyway, we should find out if that stuff really works as a mosquito repellant. Didn't Lawson say they went to get the good stuff from the Cherokee? We got the whole book linked on the front page.

I also have some black henna that's meant to be used for temporary tattoos. I'd like to try out some of those nifty anklet patterns White documented.

Now what was I supposed to do next . . .

[Tom]

Hello All well now that mummy stuff sounds like a Cree indian dinner in the north woods of Alberta, I'm not kidding!
About the puccoon or blood root I beleive that the Scheile museum in Nc there some where used to supply basket makers from Cherokee with it. I beleive that the fellows name was Steve Watts.
The rabbit skin cloaks are a real pain to keep over time because they eill shed when they start to fall apart, personally you couldn't give me one, I would bet that squirrel would be much better. The best way to do this furry twinning is to get a tanned tubed pelt and from the nose start to cut in a spiral motion all the way down to the bottom,the after yo have about 12 os so done you have to sew the ends together and then wrap this lenght of fur strips around a length of old cloth just like the srips used to make rag rugs, you do not have to sew them to the rag just use it as a base. The twinning method used is just like the way a dream catcher is made, use a small frame and make sure that you have a salvage edge made of rags..that is a square frame of rag inside the frame of the loom the square of rag will become apart of the "fabric" that you finish.
Re the moccasin patterns,I have some pic's to share one of these days, Linda did you get the article on the little skirts that I sent to you earlier? by the way I do hope that you get better soon, take care of yourself, best to all Tom

[Linda]

Yes, I got a package from you with photos. I better write myself a note to get those scanned in. Sorry I didn't let you know I got it.

[itconani]

hey all -
made those copies, tom you should be gettin those next week.
i hadnt thought about steve watts - thanks for that input, he probably does have a supply for puccoon or seed or something. he is a REALLY resourceful fellow - ive studied under one of his teachers.
the root doesnt keep the bugs away - the medium to spread the pigment onto the body does though - bear grease. let me know if anyone needs a dab....

[Linda]

Do you know how to reach Steve Watts? I've had people mention him to me before but I haven't tracked him down yet.

[Tom]

test

[Tom]

Linda the last that I heard of Steve Watts he was at the Scheile museum in your state call directory assistance or your local Museum for the location of this museum, Tom

[Linda]

Hahaha. I must be trying to make my life complicated, not thinking to try that. Thanks.

[itconani]

hes there alright -
he was wanted for teaching a class at that conference i went to last month on pottery.
he had a schedual conflict, to bad. Linda - call scheiles, its in Gastonia NC. i dont know him, but i know enough of him via Callahan in VA. hes founding member of several aboriginal skills groups, and he knows his stuff - like crazy knows it.

[Linda]

Where's Gastonia? Is that near Kerr Lake?

[mrspatino]

So did anyone come up with a style for the mocs other than they have a center seem. the 3 arrow thing seemed to drop off. Are there any symbols that people are wanting to carry on their regalia to show the Saponi Ancestry?
Definetly curious I have just regular old mocs for my regalia and was going to leave them unbeaded unless anybody has an idea. any suggestions?

[Linda]

No, we never did resolve anything on those issues. I had already put the three arrow configuration, staggered pointing left on three or four outfits, then Grey Wolf in an email told me that in their experience, each band in the tribe would have one arrow, making up a total of three, something like that, so I've been in a paroxysm of indecision on that.

I think it will take us awhile to develop some conventions. There just isn't any "authority" on these traditions. Itconani, I'd be very interested in your re-interpretation of the Sauro woman's clothing. I called the museum to see if I could get pictures. They are supposed to exist, but nobody called me back, and I haven't followed up. I would really like to come up with a working theory on how to do a regalia inspired by that.

Can someone suggest a structure that will help us arrive at some agreed upon conventions? Or maybe we need no structure. Just everybody get creative and do what they can with the best info on hand and then if folks like it they'll adapt the style, if not, they won't.

I don't know, what sounds best? Definitely something I want to play with at the campout. With shorts or bathing suits underneath, we can get as authentic as we want.

[mrspatino]

Linda where did the 3 Arrows come from and What do they mean? I saw the beaded piece on the grass dance regalia it reminds me of a baby bird... or a snake even. Also I saw on one of the other Saponi sites that links from this one, they have a picture of a man Tattooed from head to toe was that also common of the Saponi people and if so what about adopting some of those symbols in to regalia any Ideas?

[Linda]

The beaded piece was traced from a photo of a gorget found in a Cheraw children's burial. It's a rattlesnake motif.

There's a large tome by Swanton? or Mooney? about SE Indian dress in which I read something about the Piedmont Siouan not having tattoos, which was disappointing news I'm hoping to see contradicted.

I got the rattlesnake motif by perusing these archeological reports. http://rla.unc.edu/Publications/Res_reports.html (http://rla.unc.edu/Publications/Res_reports.html.) I've looked at 1, 2, 3 and 6. Problem is they're huge PDF files. I've found it easier to deal with by downloading them overnight so they come up quickly from my hard drive. I haven't had time to get any further with that. If anybody else wants to dig in, be my guest. I've got a screen capture feature in my paint program that comes in handy for capturing those images. If you find something and you can't get the image, let me know where it is and I'll grab it for you.

[This message has been edited by Linda (edited 03-20-2002).]

[mrspatino]

Hi Linda also if it would help, I have a whole Graphics department where I work my friend get images for me all the time if I ask, so I can help trying to get those images too let me know if you see anything, the computers here hold alot of artwork and have the capability to get images quickly. I am going to check that link out shortly.
Ok I tried to go to it it said page not found.

[This message has been edited by mrspatino (edited 03-20-2002).]

[Linda]

Okay, I got the link fixed. There was a period at the end.
http://rla.unc.edu/Publications/Res_reports.html

[itconani]

hey there -
linda ive got skematics for Saura woman, if you'd like a copy. detail shows placement of beadwork and probable configuration. also included are number of ornaments and bells.this dress was however most likely a ceremonial dress or one made for the internment. it is very noisy - about 300 mini bells and a series of brass and copper pendants. let me know if you want more. i have a cd rom of ocaneechi town if you dont have a copy.

[Linda]

Yes I would like a copy of the schematics. Can you send it as an attachment? What's on the Occaneechi Town CD?

Here's a sketch I did based on a Piedmont Siouan gorget. I'll have to look up just where it was from.

http://www.saponitown.com/images/sixsidedstar.jpg

[mrspatino]

Thanks Linda! I will Check it out! you know the image obove this entry? I think I have probably drawn that same image 100 times just in doodeling that is realy amazing, Ancestory work in mysterious ways!

[Linda]

That little coincidence just brightened this gray day. Since I just showed you something you already knew, maybe you can suggest what it signifies. We won't say it's a message for the Other Side or anything, just a little free association for the heck of it.

[mrspatino]

It is a little grey here today to... It's Michigan... Shocker.Anyway
That is a gosh darn good question. this is a stab in the dark but, well you have the 4 directions and I have heard of 7, maybe it is a kind of directional symbol, I have always been kind of Artsy but when I would draw it it just felt kind of felt more than just a simple drawing like signifying self a movement between the inner and the outer. I wish I could give a better theory.

[Linda]

I've seen Itconani chime in with some info on a point like this, something documented. Maybe that will happen again. . .

If you did that pattern with cowrie shells it could fill a large area and make a strong statement.

I was putting the finish on another flute and tried this pattern, except I carved lines instead of dots. It wound up looking like a snowflake, so I don't know that I'll do that again. I didn't think the dots would read very well in wood in a pattern only an inch across. I'm still in the market for a motif I could use to decorate flutes. Maybe this would work, though, if I filled the dots in with color.

[itconani]

hey all -
looks like we need a new topic heading.
any way, linda where does this piece derive from? what if known is the date associated (ie historic, late woodland, etc..)
i would say that it probably does have some esoteric meaning.
possibly sun symbol or directional. maybe it has to do with how the things are divided up - like the known world.
its really hard to say without other references. many of these symbols are lost to history for meaning unless there are a number of pieces found in situ to establish a context. ive seen dozens of designs on ceramic pipes that look like this. now those are historic pipes, the dots made by rolling a watch sprocket along the clay to create a series of dots in rows with moons and all kinds of stuff for border designs.
i think some things could just be decorative too, without heavy meaning.
you should see what kids draw sometime as decorations, with no intended meaning behind the symbols.
one fella did a dissertation on some of these symbols fromt the historic period in va. - he felt there were heavy west african associations with the clay pipe designs.
i dont think anyone really put much weight in his work though, no one really jumped at the idea because most of the pipes were indian.
i have seen this design, without the 3 dots in the centers of the "pie" shapes.
there are plenty of western beadwork pieces (rosettes) that use the "X" with a straight north south running line.
but here, ive seen this simple concept on slate gorgets, and bone carvings on tools. triangles, diamonds or "X"'s are very popular - as are dots to form them.
sooo who knows? but the important thing i think is to USE the design. There are so many linear designs available for translation it is overwhelming. So i would say use the concept where applicable and translate the pattern for contemporary usage.

ps i think the drawings of saura would need to be scanned. ill try to snail mail them to you. CD rom of occaneechi town is really cool. it has artifacts up the wazoo and lots of house and village patterns.
its an educational cd, so you learn about archeology and historic border colonial history.

[mrspatino]

Well my Milenium just got made!
Itconani where might i be able to see those artifacts any ideas?
Also My friend is burning those images from that site Linda I am going to try to print them and send them, it might take me a little while but I will get them to you.

[Linda]

Well, I want to run and look through the archeological reports, but I've got work work I need to do or I won't get a gig. I'll have to get on this later. I want to say the gorget was from the Gaston site, close to historic but I need to look it up to be sure.

[collins]

That gorget is from the archeology dig at Occaneechi Town. It was one of the gorgets found there. The Blackfoot of the plains area use that design which is a three projectioned fan shape. Of course may be I am only seeing it from one perspective. Another way to look at it is as a medicine wheel.

[Tom]

test

[Tom]

Hello Everyone, yes I'm still here! Buck and Linda I haven't forgot you!
I have been working on a paper that I hope will be published sometime this year re. cane baskets, does anyone know any thing about the materials that may have been found from the Saponi Nation?
The moccasin pattern will have to be sanctioned by the people from the New Saponi Town, if we are to have any formal style or type. Aswell I would hope to see several types of patterns and designs one for men and one for women.
If anyone is interested? go to the American Museum of Naural History and surf into their files go to Yuchi and you will see a pair of center seam moccasins w/ a strip of red cloth covering the seam on the toe, this was very common all over the southeast and up quite high in the north, that's a start! Also any one can apply for a pass word to search the museum collections!
The last issue is the gorget pattern all of these can be interpreted the way the viewer wants to! so pay attention to the numerology there and look for similarities in what you are doing. Keep in mind that this has three dots on each one of the six divisions, three arrows man/ woman, aswell there is seven dots on most of the lines maybe for 4 cardinal points,up down and center creates seven directions, center is within and around you. Remember we all relate the past to the current but what the old folks kept may not be what we are trying to regain ! Best to All Tom.

[mrspatino]

Hi Tom, I am a little confused by your last sentence. Are you saying we should create our own symbols? SHould we not use the old symbols? help confused...

[Linda]

Thanks for the tip about the museum.

Maybe you can explain more about the numerology. I don't know anything about that way of looking at things.

[Tom]

Hello All,yes you should use this pattern and make it your own!
The last line means that in this case what we see and have that is not from our own time (an archaeological specimen) we take an artistic liscence to interpret what we are seeing, but we are of this time not when the article was made, so we have to re-interpret what the image may be saying, bearing in mind all that we know about it, since we do not have the exojesus of the time we should (do our research)and try to be well informed about the objects that we are looking at prior to our interpretations of the materials which will obviously differ from what the original meaning was.
If I were to reinterpret this pattern it would have a great deal to "say", but in short here goes; first there is six divisions ,were there 6 original Saponi or eastern souian towns or divisions?; the seven dots on the outside of each division relates to several issues one being the calendar of the year, the current 4 seasons were originally 13, they were divided by a solar and lunar equinox that had six seasons on either side but after 7 years you have to add in a 7th "day" to balance the lunar equinox with the solar equinox. Also there is the balance within ourselves; the self, the same, the other, and the all,just like the world; it is the self,the sky land is the same,the other is the night land and the all is the great beyond. You can apply all of this to your family community, larger group etc. The ceremonial smudges for fastings are the self (closest to you), the middle fire is for your family and the 3rd fire is the "Nations fire"; 3 dots! Also notice that the three dots in each of the six divisions help create 3 concenertic circles around a centeral point.
Iam sure that there's a great deal more that could be figured in, in this design., but look carefully and contemplate all that you consider. Well I think that this is all for now,I hope this gets posted. Best to All Tom.

[Linda]

That is very interesting. Where did you learn about all this?

[Linda]

You're right, most of the sections are in series of seven, the spokes, and the outside rim sections. I wasn't paying any attention to that when I traced it, and the gorget wasn't in very good shape. I may have altered those counts. We'll have to look into that.

[collins]

Yes, I have seen those circles too. I see alot going on in these designs, and based on some of the information I have read about, common elements are retained from not only the general southeastern ceremonial complex but the Mound Building peoples as well. The main thing you discussed regarding the cycles of the lunar and solar cycles is right on as well. We must all remember that our people relied on the seasons and the signs there in to live and know when to go do what was needed to maintain their way of life. Bila huk oho!

[Tom]

Hello All thank you for your replies! I have learned a great deal from all sources some more than others ofcourse, but let me say this, the spirit that lives in us all as a part of humanity speaks to us every day, you just have to "listen" to the world around you.
While visiting with a friend we had this arguement that the human condition that we recognize as art is based on math, and this concept is at the fundementals of human thought,to consider esthetics is really part of human thought.
So when you go about making something beautiful you have to measure either by sight or with a device.Look around you for all that is beautiful and you will never be bored.

Happy Easter to every one ,Tom.

[collins]

Here is one answer to the question with a question. You were born were you not?

[sammarroq]

I know this thread started discussing mocs, but it has some good info on the different gorget designs too.

[ahwikatani]

hello all,the piegan tribe has a symbol on their mocs with 3 lines representing the 3 tribes that made their nation.

[EagleEye]

I am new and learning my way around the Forum...The gorget design reminds me of an old pie safe that my Mother had....the front had metal inserts on the doors and a design punched into the metal...I know you have seen these...Looks like a decoration, maybe not.....Linda, I read that someone has a cd about Occaneechi Town...Is it still possible to get a copy of this, or other info..I am interested in their shelters/houses...what do they look like and what are they made of...I hope to build one....also, interested in their town/camp...what it looks like, etc.....

[beeleaf]

I read that someone has a cd about Occaneechi Town...Is it still possible to get a copy of this, or other info

Hi Eagle Eye. Welcome. Here ya go:
http://www.ibiblio.org/uncpress/occaneechi/


There are also a few photos of the reconstructed village on the OBSN site:
http://www.occaneechi-saponi.org/current_events.html

[EagleEye]

Hi Beeleaf....thanks for the info you sent...was able to get color pictures of the Occaneechi Houses/Huts and other info I was wondering about...Also, went on to the OBSN site and found several people with surname Hayes...In fact, the Tribal Chairman/Chief is a Hayes...My Grandmother was a Indian/Hayes and I am researching that surname....Thank you again....EagleEye/Carl.....Happy Hunting....