Blackfoot Indians

[itconani]

[EDITOR'S NOTE: We have made this a sticky thread because it raises many of the key issues around research into the Blackfoot ID east of the Mississipi. This discussion arose in 2002 by our friend, Itconani, who has good naturedly played the role of 'devil's advocate,' raising excellent questions we must be able to answer in our research. Reading this thread, plus the "Other Blackfoot" article at www.saponitown.com/Blackfoot.htm will help to quickly inform the reader on research into this subject.]

There has been an alarming amount of informtion streaming through the southeast in reference to "Blackfoot" indians in the region.
Most people are very strong about there family's heritage coming from this group based on oral history. However, I believe with the utmost assurance that except for some remote locations (Hampton, VA.,Carlisle, PA,etc) there were no Blackfoot indians in the region.
The Blackfoot indians who were here were relatively late and related to the indian school movement of the late 19th and early 20th century. So where are all these Blackfoot indians coming from? The answer is very simple. Are these individuals indian? Absoloutely. Most Americans could not name you dozen tribal names - they just aren't that informed. However some gropus have a widespread popularity - Cherokee, Navajo, Sioux (Lakota), Blackfeet, Seminole.
These groups for what ever reason, stick in history and peoples minds. Some where along the line people of mixed ancestory in the south new they were indian - but through generation had forgotten tribal names. Hence the lumbee (croatan, cherokee of Robeson Co.etc), the Monacan (buffalo ridge cherokee), the Indians of persons Co.(cherokee of Person co.)Haliwa Saponi (HALIfax and WArreen co.)etc.
The names of dominickers, brass ankles, redbones, mulungeon exist based on these triracial groups. Interesting enough, people ask their elders who are we? and they give the answer of Cherokee, Blackfeet, etc. because of oral tradition as recognizable indianess.
I cannot tell you how many Blackfeet i have met from Florida to New York. the list would be larger than some local tribal roles. What do they have in common? not very much, except they come from all over the east, they are indian with black and white mixed - looking for who they are.
Dont spend time researching the Blackfeet of the East. They are absent from the historical, anthropological, archeological, and cultural record in the Southeast. Chasing ghost does not help. lets find the real tribal groups from real records and real oral traditions of settlement patterns. look for the families and the locations of peoples who never left!

[Linda]

Have you read the article "The Other Blackfoot" linked on the main page of this website? I was asked to write it for a book being published on the ethnic origins of melungeons.

Do you have any oral traditions in your family concerning this identification?

We are not discussing the Montana Blackfoot tribe here. We are disccussing the "Saponi Blackfoot," which identification has survived in some of those families, with the same surnames and locations as others carrying simply the "Blackfoot" identification. The Saponi Blackfoot are a subset of the Eastern Siouan people of the NC/VA Piedmont and have no relationship whatsoever to the Blackfeet of Montana.

[This message has been edited by Linda (edited 01-02-2002).]

[itconani]

Thanks linda,
your article was very good. However i still feel that the term of Blackfoot or Blackfeet
is as frequent in some circles as Cherokee.
There are too many "blackfeet" in contemporary minds but absent from historical data to be considered a homogenous group. I dont doubt the sincerity of the individuals - they are more than likely indian - but not culturally Blackfoot. the common term in many triracial communities is not surprising. I've met alot Cherokees too - people stick to what they know.
if they haven't been educated to know different, or have not gotten out to see the rest of Indian country, they will stick to being Blackfoot of Virginia or Maryland or wherever. "Paha' is black in lakota for sure, is it the same in Nakota? i dont know - but i know Eastern sioun is Nakota based.
I think the research for blackfeet is a marker -for further research. its not a branch of the saponi. the eno, the saura, the haw, coharie, yammassee, manohoack, mandoag, chowanoke, weapamoc, tuscarora, gingaskin, tutelo, nottoway, warroskoyac, weanoke all still need descendants - more than they've got. Lets have "blackfoot" as a marker for finding these people. trace this marker to the source not create a new source to cover a broad range. Saponis get angry when there get to be too many saponis. Powhatans are the same. As are the Creeks. talk to yall soon.

[Linda]

Well, I'd love to find out where some of these circles are where there are so many Eastern Blackfoot descended people. One thing we want to do is get this info into a database where it will be easy to see the similarities in migration patterns. I've talked to plenty of people myself and I have seen definite, identifiable patterns, traceable back to documented Eastern Piedmont Siouan.

I don't know about Nakota, I used the Tutelo translations. In Tutelo, "ici" means foot, "asepa" means black. We are asserting that the village name of Sissipaha is a corruption of "Ici asepa." There's a link on the main page to the Early Canadiana site for Horatio Hale's Tutelo dictionary.

Actually, we may be having a problem with semantics here. I am using the broad, historic usage of the word Saponi to signify the Siouan nations of the VA/NC Piedmont, as coined by Governor Spotswood. Only a certain percentage of the people I've come across who are likely Saponi carry the Blackfoot identification. You mention the Eno and the Haw as unclaimed, actually they and the Shakori (known as Stuckenocks at Fort Christanna) are the people we're talking about, if we assume that "blackfoot" refers to Sissipaha. Look up Saxapahaw, NC on an atlas.

If you got time, go to this site, http://rla.unc.edu/Publications/Res_reports.html
and view Report No. 3. On the first page you'll see an illustration of archeological sites. Look at the big black spot to the left on the Haw River and Cane Creek. The Haw River Valley is the largest fertile region in this part of the country, I've heard.

What this suggests to me is that this area supported a significant Siouan-speaking population. From what I understand, larger populations are more de-stablized by epidemics that smaller ones. It seems sensible to surmise that the Haw valley was home to a significant population, it fell apart very early on, and the memory of it is retained in the Blackfoot identification of people deriving from this region. So what we are claiming ARE some of the unclaimed groups you named, although to be precise, the Eno and the Haw are branches of what came to be understood as Saponi.

I appreciate your granting us our sincerity. All this has come to be much more an issue of belief for me than of scholarly proof. I started out on this journey assuming just as you said, that what my grandmother said about us being Blackfoot had to be a mistake. I started digging into who we really were based on the history of the regions they lived in. At this point the weight of circumstantials has just piled up to the point where I would be a very hard-hearted granddaughter to say that I did not have more than enough reason to trust in what my grandmother said. Not to mention all the uncanny circumstances that have simply blown me away. This is not about chasing ghosts. It's the other way around. . .

I know I've taken up a bit of your time, but if you'd care to see how all this has unfolded and why I feel compelled to this belief you can look at this, http://www.winwinworld.net/Linda/Roots/

[itconani]

hats off for diligent work!
i think maybe i disagree with the name blackfoot more on a phlisophical/political basis. i really dont doubt the desdendancy of so many folk - the oral tradition is very prevelant - especially from black folks with indian ancestory. Rather, i think your work is admirable to trace the blackfoot label to a saponi township of sissipaha. the lakota translates from "si" foot and "paha" black. But why label it eastern blackfoot? it seems confusing and propogation of myths of tipis and headresses. The fact that blackfoot has come down the line as a tribal name seems to come more from a convenient well known indian group combined with black intermarriages. my experience has always been medium to dark skinned black folks with indian descent from northeastern urban centers. They claim blackfoot and come from the south 2-5 generations ago. cities like philly, newark, baltimore. basically nj, ny, md, del, etc. if i had a nickel for every one id be rich. at one point we considered writing everyones name in a book in hopes of helping them find each other and a common thread in their roots. it really was uncanny. they spent alot of time confusing western indians, researching western beadwork and history, and not knowing the depth of what they were saying meant.
however, most groups lose tribal orientation when divided and dispersed so much. corruption of tribal names and places do come down the line - but rarely if ever, transaltions. it just doesnt work.
i agree with a va/nc sioun concept - even iroquoian and algonquian for lost groups.
but eastern blackfoot as a tribal identity?
it seems strange to think of the seminole as the "runaway tribe of florida" or the lakota as the "peace nation". english translations dont do justice. id use the "blackfoot" as a marker for southern triracial background - like black irish or mulungeon. however i would think of concepts like sissipaha representing a township within the greater saponi. losing the "blackfoot" retains more historical accuracy, contemporary validity, and keeps the blackfoot in montana from chuckling so much. Contemporary indians in this region have worked hard for several generations to be recognized as different from whites and blacks. the line has blurred much and they feel that the burden of proof remains on them. the line is a fine one, legitimacy, history,and and tradition is key. Many shy away from conflicts pertaining to other groups legitamicies. education is essential, as is good research, and cultural renewal. regionaltiy is precious - tutelo is here - chickahominy is here - sissipaha is here-
blackfoot is in montana.

[Linda]

Thank you for those kind words. I've been waiting for the day someone would come along and question us, and I must say I'm glad it's you. You are a very reasonable person. We share much the same values on how to regard and respect our native ancestry.

Let me tell you what tipped me off to the village "Sissipaha." I came across a lady's name on the internet who identified herself as Sihisapa Sioux, or Blackfoot Sioux, which is what the word Sihisapa means. They are Teton Sioux. I was intrigued by this, and felt like I'd heard that word somewhere before. Then I remembered the village Sissipaha, I asked someone versed in Tutelo if that could mean Blackfoot and was told yes, that's what it means.

What this implies to me now is this, the name Blackfoot may in fact be very ancient, going all the way back to the time when all the Siouan people were together, some say, in the midwest. I believe it's Prof. Airy Dixon who reports an oral tradition he heard from a Sioux head man, a Teton Sioux if I remember correctly. I need to dig that up. Anyway, the oral tradition remembers cousins in the east near the coast, for a long while there was even a custom of trade between the two for certain special items.

The upshot of this is that this name may be very ancient and very special. I wouldn't dream of giving it up. It's also what my grandmother gave me, making it special for that reason.

Your point that a translated name would not have persisted so well is interesting. I think the history of this group would make it believable though. In 1713, most of the surviving Eastern Siouan, Piedmont, Saponi people (the proper name for this confederation we believer would be "Yésah") were at Fort Christanna in Brunswick County, VA. There were, I believe, about 800 souls there. This would mean that for the most part, everybody today descended from those people come from that small, contained population. They learned English there, if they hadn't already (they were politically defeated by the English in 1673) they were also taught to read and write, remember this is 1713. It does seem possible that a translated version of the name would have come into usage and persisted.

Now as to the issue of race. My own family has no trace of African descent. We have been classified as white for many generations. In my experience, the people I've come across have been as often "white" as "black" and the surnames, locations, etc are the same in either case. I think the fact that so many of these descendants are "black" identified has been used to dismiss it, like it's a euphemism for Black Indian descent. But, as I've said, I've yet to personally see any examples of "black" Blackfoot who don't have the same surname, location patterns as the "white" Blackfoot.

There's something interesting you, or anyone else, can do to see the migration path that's common here. Find an internet "white pages" that will allow you to search the whole country at once, like http://theultimates.whitepages.com. Search on the last name, Tutterow. I found that surname on a list I have of Southeastern Indian names as a Tutelo name (obvious corruption). It's amazing how the general locations mirror what I've been hearing from these Blackfoot identified people. (Somebody good at cold calls needs to call those people and see what stories they have in their families.)

I fully agree with you about misidentifying the meaning of this descent. It makes me cringe to see people dressing up like Plains people and acquiring those cultural elements -- just going for a simplistic, unresearched assumption and not digging any deeper. I get annoyed too when people won't hear what I'm saying and keep assuming I'm claiming to be regular Montana Blackfoot. NO!! Our people have zero relationship to them.

I hope you'll see the necessity of continuing to use this word publically, since it puts us in touch with each other. I wish you had made that list of the people you've come across. That's exactly what we're trying to do here, pool all that information and make sense of it.

At this point we're not talking about any kind of tribal identity for this group. We are a descendants association. We don't claim to be a tribe. A tribe is a very intense social structure, I would not presume to approximate. From a search engine point of view, the term "Blackfoot" is the keyword someone with that identification would use. So if our keywords are "Ëastern Blackfoot" we will attract the attention of the right people. Hopefully, these internet surfers will spend enough time here to find out if our research fits their situation and find out what the research has uncovered. Perhaps adding a keyword of "Sissipaha Blackfoot", with the right description, will be useful in attracting good attention and quickly dispelling incorrect assumptions. Thanks for that idea.

What people do you descend from?

[Greywolf]

Blackfoot? I thought that Saponi was Blackfoot. Just last week I was out burning some fields and a cousin called me “Blackfoot Saponi“. That’s why the Saponi were called that. Our people back here in Missouri still “slash and burn”. Sometimes we even burn our own property! That’s no joke! One certainly doesn’t want to come back here and tell thousands of us who we aren’t. The Saponi Nation in Ohio also goes by “Blackfoot”. Before I start trying to teach someone about them being wrong, I would do some researching. It is my personal belief that the western Sioux may have carried the “Blackfoot” name from the east. And we are not black. Just the facts ya huk! Good job Linda

[Linda]

I was hoping you'd jump in here, Greywolf, though, as I said before, Itconani is a kindly "opponent" and the opportunity to air some of these issues is a good thing.

What I said earlier about not being a tribe does not apply to the Saponi Nation of Missouri. They are a tribe and have always been one. I learn more from them every day.

[itconani]

first, i will say quite honestly, that i will leave this site if continued name calling is involved.
i was invited here based on the fact that i have done so much research - cultural, historical, archealogical, geneological, linguistic, etc. on this region (va/nc).
I do not know about other groups with "blackfoot" labels and do not assume anything regarding them. The Blackfoot tribe of Montana and Alberta are of Algonquian language familiy (as are Peigan and Blood related to them). My interest here is to dispell any misinformation and continue research about the interesting blackfoot label out of the Va/NC region.
Primary HERE, are the language families that are Tutelo and Woccon from Sioun (branch close to nakota) stock. other groups with similiar names that should not be confused with Sissapahaw - sioun from southeast NC/SC:
Sioux (Dakota, Lakota) subdivisions include santee, teton, Yamkton, Yanktonai, etc. Sioun from plains SD/ND/MN/NB/Alberta/Saskatchewan/
Manitoba
Sisseton - Santee Sioux division
Siksika - Blackfoot, Algonquian, Alberta/montana
I would hope from a few short entries, my diligence on these matters is not misunderstood. I do not question the lineage or the indianess. what we are looking for are the missing links and good material that needs fleshing out.
I do think it important to maintain the "blackfoot" label as a link, for it is as important as the label Charles City Indian, or Mulungeon, or Brass Ankles.
It is important however, to address the term in a fashion that is clearly understood by the indian, scholarly and political communities.
As much as I have a strong belief in this notion, it is intersting that other translations of Saponi towns have not come down the line - and that other contemporary Saponis in the region do not wear the "blackfoot" name as a cultural marker.

as for migrations - lots of good work there.
ill put in what i know for consumption.
Saponi proper lived in the western portion of the state of virginia (1671).They had many villages over a long history and move alot during the colonial era. I think that has been well covered on this site. Village clusters appear in records by various notables including, Lawson (1701)and Jeffeson.
They were on the roanoke, south of the james, and on the yadkin at different points among others. After the Tuscarora wars the tutelo and saponi suffered greatly and some elected to move northward under the protection of the Five nations(1712).
by 1745 the tutelo and saponi had congregated in what is known as Shamokin Penn. Also were fragments of
Nanticoke, Delaware, and other tribes. In 1750 the Six nations (adding Tuscarora) elected to admit the Tutelo and the Nanticoke as full members of the Confederacy. Tutelos were considerd special friends of the cayuga, and established themselves near cayuga at the south end of cayuga lake in ny. after 1779 war drove cayuga and their friends to canada - they settled on the grand river in ontario. the tutelo located their town near brantford. two visits of Asiatic cholera decimated the town and survivors took refuge again with the cayuga.
when Hale visits the cayuga in 1870 he found one full blooded tutelo by the name of nikonha who was married to a cayuga.
Hale aquired a vocab from nikonha of nearly 100 words, plus a few more on the second visit. hales work showed the distinction from Iroquois and related to Dakotan family. in 1871 hale returns as nikonha dies to retrieve more words from children of tutelo mothers and cayuga fathers. many papers were given on this research at the time comparing tutelo, dakota,and hidatsa grammatic framework and vocab.
1907 Frachtenberg visits The grand river reserve and collects a few more words from and old woman using a cayuga interpreter. 1913 Sapir returns later to interview interpreter and gains more vocab, that work is presented.

all for now more when time allows.

ps my relations are extensive - but i think the ones you are interested in come from mixed ancestory from the piedmont to the coast of Carolina. Surnames include Spruill, woodard, cahoon, collins, sykes, woodley etc. additional Indian descent comes from farther south "este mvskoke" the muskogee creek. the tree gets bigger as you dig, especially triracial trees.
best to all

[itconani]

hmm

[This message has been edited by itconani (edited 01-04-2002).]

[Linda]

I tried to find any name calling. The only thing I could see that might seem like that would be "ya huk" which means "you all" in Tutelo. If I've missed something, let me know.

The thing is, the gentlemen we have here from Missouri and Alberta are from communities who migrated from 18th century North Carolina/Virginia Piedmont. They've researched this thoroughly. There's also a goodly amount of oral tradition that I'm still learning about. The Ohio Saponi mentioned also originate in the NC/VA Piedmont.

We appreciate your contributions. You've just gotten a bit ahead of yourself assuming that you know all that there is to know on this subject of this identification.

There are people here who've done much the same homework, and there are people here who have retained cultural elements and oral histories that make them quite certain of who they are, and who they've always called themselves, which is always disconcerting when it's questioned. I hope you'll understand. I imagine you will also quickly understand what a unique resource they represent.

To put it plain, if you're a Collins, you've just come into contact with a cousin who knows what it means to be a Collins in ways that you will never find in any book or museum on any continent.

[itconani]

nuff said -
my apologies for confusion.
i was under the impression a northern term was being tossed my way. "ya huk" is an interesting term for "y'all" but ill take it at face value.
ill refrain from assuming any more.
no questions on sincerity, documented movements, or any proclomations.
however, i think it is important to know as much about the wider indian component
involved than just "blackfoot" and saponi.
but ill leave that by the wayside if this is touchy.
helpful is not always packaged as one wants. criticism is constructive. ill take the hint as you mentioned was a good idea for all before. thank you. it is hard to always know the way comments are intended without tonation, facial gesture, and emphasis. maybe i can sound too strong or vice versa.
additionally, do not be fooled by knowledge of books or museums. some things from indian country do require first hand experience. more later.

[Forest]

I've been reading this forum for quite a while now, but have refrained from posting much. Now, having seen how some folks reacted to a previous post that expressed a different viewpoint from that held by others on this forum, I'm glad I did. I don't claim to know everything about Saponi history, but I ecognize that there are often varying, equally valid interpretations of the historical data. I saw Itconani's post as expressing his view of the "Blackfoot" interpretation, one which I happen to share in large part. I certainly did not see him as an "opponent", if the real purpose of this forum is to actually learn something, as opposed to simply looking at a topic over and over again from the same angle.

[edstp62]

Greetings to Y'all, this is one of the most heated of topics that I have seen yet! But let me say this, as a very mixed blood person, (I have black-brown hair ,green eyes and in summer a nice tan), I understand the points given here I would never take anything for granted or would I question my families oral history but rather accept it and look for material to support the premise, which I have always found! All points in my research have addressed the views given here. from my own expierence I believe that if a statement or science can stand on it's own 2 legs then it can take the criticisms of others and from within our own clans/ communities and from the outside. It think that this is not unique to any one but is the heart and soul of human survival , so I have to allow others to define themselves they way they choose and find peace within to give them the space. But I also have to hear what other people are saying and try to understand why they take that position. One issue I have always addressed and come out the same always on is,"if it was not safe to be "indian " then why define yourself and your family in that sence"? would it not be safer to just be white? look at what our communities and families have gone through in order to retain our identity! I recall a time when I had to fight my way home to and from school 4 times a day 5 times a week, because a school teacher asked us what our descent was! I was the only kid in class with Indian in my blood and from that day until we moved back here to Indian ccountry I had to bite kick scratch, scream and punch my way home! what did this do? It made me much stronger in who Iam! this isn't new to any one here I'm sure but we know who we are and that will not change! Thank you all once again,Tom.

[Forest]

Sometimes a little "heat" serves a useful purpose, if it gets folks to think a little about what they believe. Compared to some forum exchanges I've seen tho', on other boards, the conversations here are pretty much models of tact and courtesy, which is how it should be. Grats to Linda for keeping things polite. There is no reason why we can't "agree to disagree" on occasion, particularly on subjects like the interpretation of historical data.
Regarding Saponi movements, for example, I disagree with a a respected colleague of mine who tends to believe that between say 1720 and 1770, there was one single group of Saponi moving all over the place, where I feel that the likelihood was that there were at least 2 groups in the general vicinity of the Virginia/NC border. In abt 1765 ( I dont have my notes in front of me, but I can provide the exact reference if anyone needs it) the Saponi and Nottoway together had 60 gunmen. My interpretation of this data would be that (1) the two groups were living in the same general area, and (2) based on numbers given for the Nottoway in 1808, a figure of 30-40 Saponi "gunmen" would not be unreasonable, giving a rough total population of 120-160 Saponi in the group living in the area near the Nottoway Reservation in presentday Southampton Co., Virginia. These Saponi may have included elements of the Occaneechi, Stukenocks, etc., as well as Saponi proper, just as the Nottoway had also incorporated other tribal elements.

[itconani]

i agree that there has been a liitle heat,
but that this site has been most open and polite! i do not intend on stepping on toes, but rather try and bring a new dimension to the conversation.

Additionally, I wholeheartedly agree with several Saponi groups moving about during the early to mid 1700s. one map i recall from Tanner (1989) shows two seperate Saponi concentrations - one on the roanoke river, another on the yadkin for example.

On the subject of Nottoway:
here is a good example of massive tribal
infusion. 'Saponi' and nottoway living in same vicinity post Fort Christianna. The nottoway are an interesting bunch with relationship to this area of interest. Not only are they in the vicinity of the area of va/nc we're discussing but new research has gone so far as to show them as possibly being sioun speakers - not iroquoian at all. Additionally, there are good records of their land sales and in some cases descendants. If they blend into the woodwork with the saponi (as in hollister?) or dispearse as the saponi, then we have alot of other groups to discuss.
for instance the Southern James south of present day hopewell, used to include the weyanoke, warroskoyack, and Quiyoughcahonnocks. the latter disappear fairly early in the 1600's as their lands are settled by english. they take refuge with the Weyanokes and Nansemond or Pochicks. census counts only include pochicks (non christian nansemonds), nansemonds, and weyanokes in the mid to late 1600's. We know the Nansemonds who are not missionized move towards ft. Christianna and eventually settle within (remnants) whats now the "saponi" community in NC - halifax and warren. others disperse to indian groups in region (saponi / nottoway or meherrin or where?) Weyanokes bounce around getting lands from govenors and holding up in forts in contemporary surry, isle of wight, sussex, southhampton counties. they buy land from all sorts of people (tuscarora, nottoways) trying to settle somewhere.
the border dispute in NC/VA has themliving in the blackwater swamp in 1710 and reported to be low in numbers.
they supposedly enventually move in with
nottoways. Land records show a variety of weyanoke names amongst nottoways all through 18century and as late as 1808. people claiming nottoway descent linger in area for a good while - the last dies (according to some) in c.1958! others claim linneage still from groups who relocated up north - one is wampanoag.

So if we have saponis and nottoways together , then we probably have weyanokes (which include some generations ago quiyoughcahonnacks and warroskoyacks) with them. Of course by this time english is lingua franca - and survival based on common origin is important. hence, the melting pot is continued further for these "saponi" groups. Im sure all can see the complexity in these dealings - a close look at material reveals a whole lot of people in southside virginia who descend from a variety of VA/NC indians.

once again, with all this in mind - the blackfoot marker would reflect "who" exactly? i wont press that issue - but i believe there are alot of people who are blanketted "saponi" etc. during this time who are from different backgrounds (as noted by all on forum) and would not exactly relate to an english translations of a single township.
One saponi i know remembers his greatgrandfather well - he died 20 odd years ago. to the day of his death, he was unhappy with the tribe's descision in the 60s to ID themselves as "Saponi"; the tribe felt that saponi reflected the majority of its member's interests and descent. he died standing by his choice to be counted as Tuscarora.

[Linda]

I think we do well to keep in mind that there are two different considerations here. There's scholarly objectivity, then there's issues of family identity and tradition. I think edstp put it very eloquently. He remains faithful to what he was taught and looks for evidence that will support it. That's certainly not a scientific method, but you're not supposed to be using scientific methods to have faith in what your mother told you. It sort of gets into the same territory as matters of faith.

Good to see you here, Forest and thanks for the kind words. Have you ever looked at my "Other Blackfoot" article? I'd be interested in your feedback, maybe not here in public if you think it's full of balogney, hahaha. There's also the piece I wrote on how all this has unfolded for me, www.winwinworld.net/Linda/Roots (http://www.winwinworld.net/Linda/Roots) . That's completely subjective about all the coincidences that keep flying at me. Got another one yesterday.

I heard from a gentleman in Bloomington who knows you. He's got Richardsons and Dempsey's from Guilford County who migrated out to Vernon County, WI, where my family also settled. I don't see any logical way I could look at all this evidence and think it's just coincidence. Just with this one scenario, where we go looking to find other people in that vicinity with Indian roots, not expecting to find much of anything that would reveal anything, But here it is, I've run into five people now, one a cousin, and they all have pedigrees, on their Indian sides, that hail from this Piedmont. But then, you know more about the Vernon County Indian settlement than I do.

I know about bias in any inquiry. You go to do a test and you have a theory and you try to test it. But your bias of what you want to see will skew your perception of the data. I know how all that works. And I know that for a good while I did NOT WANT to be Saponi descended. It would just be too weird and unbelievable that I'd have the same kind of descent my husband has realized he has. I was trying really hard to interpret the data in other ways, but there just got to be too much of it pointing in this direction till I gave in.

Bottom line, this is getting into the realm of religion. Maybe you all, (I mean, ya huc) will think I'm nuts, but I really think a big reason we're finding out so much now is because our Ancestors want us to. I think that's why I keep stumbling onto all this evidence. "Somebody's" throwing it into my path.

I know now when some uncanny coincidence in this regard comes along my role is to suspend all judgment and just let it take me where it will. I met somebody a few months ago that I had every reason to dislike and distrust, but the uncanny coincidence thing was going on, the angel dust was in the air, and I just let it go where it wanted to go and all my initial judgments based on evidence turned out to be completely false.

[nclark]

I'm throwing my hat into the ring kinda of late, so I hope I'm not stirring up any trouble here. Although I don't have any elaborate documentation to add, I would like to say this on behalf of oral tradition. It is a powerful thing. Why do we feel that we are so far advanced and removed from our predecessors just because we have more gadgets and technology. That the backs on which we stand had to have been ignorant and full of fairytales simply because we can't prove something by our standards. Just because something appears to be unseemly does not mean it is impossible. What am I getting at? As a person who is Black in America and can trace my ethinic roots to the England, Ghana, the Choctaw and the Southeast Blackfoot, it is so frustrating hearing repeatedly that you ancestors, in this case my great great grandmother who was born in NC and somehow ended up a slave in MS, must have been making up their Blackfoot heritage story, obviously trying to pass of their odd features and straight hair as something else simply because they were in contact with Blacks. All Black people do not feel that it is some mark of honor to have another ethinictiy thrown in the pot so we can escape our Blackness. And I am not one to divide on racial issues, so please don't confuse what I am saying. What I am getting at is that there is an overwhelming number of people who identify themselves as Black who share this common thread of Blackfoot ancestry. All of us can not be deluded by some grand scheme to "fit" into another group and I am sure that our relatives knew who they were. It is an insult to dismiss it in the catagory of 'Black Irish', etc. There is truth in what our grandparents told us and we owe it to them to search it out. Why else would they have bother to pass down the story? The point was to keep it alive. Perhaps all they told us was all they knew and they were too busy trying to make a better live for their children to go further into detail. Maybe it was too difficult for them to discuss. What we consider interesting facts was the hardship and pain of their lives. So we need to show a little more respect and give them a little more credit.

[Linda]

Let me add something to Nicole's point. We were talking about it the other day. I asked her when her great grandmother would have been born and she said the 1880's. I was asking because it seems that if someone were to seriously research this we might be able to establish something. First A) there would need to be some thorough research on when the word "Blackfoot" became a common household word among rural people of color in the upper south. Then B) we would need to survey a good sampling of people from this population with these reports in their family and find out the earliest date that this identification is known to have been reported in a family. If B predates A, then we should discount the theory that this identification is on a par with "melungeon" or "Black Irish" or "Black Dutch" in terms of vagueness.

I have the impression from the sampling of people I've come across in my own experience, that most of the Blackfoot identified people who migrated away from the South are now classified as white. Here in the south, more tend to be classified as black, but that's the case with a great many Indian descended people in the south.

I personally have not encountered any Black Indians with the Blackfoot identification who didn't fit into the patterns of migration and surnames common to Yésah descended people.

Have either of you taken note of names/locations of Blackfoot identified people you've come across?

Does anyone know enough about Regular Montana Blackfoot history to know if that tribe was well known in the East in the late 19th century?

So far, the people I've come across who've researched this particular question have agreed with my theories. That's how I came to write the article. I'd posted my ideas on a Melungeon board and two men who'd been doing a lot of research on this issue thought what I said concurred with what they'd seen themselves in the historical record. Since the article's been online I heard from an older gentleman in Kentucky who spent a good part of his lifetime trying to uncover what this term meant and basically followed the same line of thought I did, linking the Tutelo version of the term first to the Sihisappa Sioux, then realizing the Sissipaha in NC would likely also mean "Blackfoot." He was a very dedicated researcher, nowadays Horatio Hale's dictionary is available online, but he had to badger the Smithsonian, or the National Archives, whoever it is who had that document, for years before he was able to obtain it.

Then of course, there's the Ohio Saponi, who, like the Missouri Saponi, feel the term Blackfoot is synonymous with the Yésah people in general. Serious inquiry needs to be made to determine how culturally intact these communities have remained BEFORE anyone discounts what they state. Without doing that, we should take what they say at face value. It should also be determined if there was any communication between these communities over the years. I have the feeling there was little, which means you have two sizeable populations with the same explanation of the same term, independently of one another.

[itconani]

This topic is deffinately developing alot of interest. I think both methods of research help when all the material is laid on the table. i also think one needs the other in some ways.

I agree very much about saponi outside the old cultural area. much more research and investigation needs to be developed there, but maybe not on their part. Maybe they know more about their beginings than we - certainly they are very tenacious in continuing their asserttions.
i am not very familiar with these groups or their removal history. Only the root.

On discussing a few other points from nicole:

"must have been making up their Blackfoot heritage story"

"All Black people do not feel that it is some mark of honor to have another ethinictiy thrown in the pot so we can escape our Blackness."

"there is an overwhelming number of people who identify themselves as Black who share this common thread of Blackfoot ancestry. All of us can not be deluded by some grand scheme to "fit" into another group and I am sure that our relatives knew who they were. It is an insult to dismiss it in the catagory of 'Black Irish', etc."

"So we need to show a little more respect and give them a little more credit."

i dont feel that insult or disrespect is an issue here, certainly not in my mind. I do believe these stories are passed down through generations of people who had some very rough social situations. i do not feel that in any way the "blackfoot" marker is an avenue for any of these people to escape their "blackness", or grand schemed into a single group.
that is actually the phenonema: so many unassociated people of european, african, and indian descent originally from the south claiming "blackfoot".

the task here is not to doubt the validity of the claim, but rather to see how it fits into the fabric of our cultural landscape. i think the method linda considered bears more thought. when did these terms arise and how well are they documented? who are these people originally? and what new data can we uncover from linking oral history with dates, migrations, and documentation from removed groups?

On the familarity with Blackfoot proper in the east in later 1800's and 1900's:

Harper's weekly was a vey popular publication during this time, as was Wild bill's rodeo and indian show. The magazine featured a wide variety of tantalizing stories of the old west and added to the development of the contemporary stereotypes we see today.
Frederick Remington gained widespread fame during this time for being a cover illustrator and story illustrator for the publication. His reference work on indian affairs was enhanced immeasurably by his living with the Blackfoot and drawing from their subjects. he used the material throughout his career and documented them very well. Between wild bill's indian shows (blackfoot included) and Edward curtis's collections for his publishers - the blackfoot would have had widespread popularity at that time. not as much as the "Sioux" or cheyenne but deffinately strong in many eastern cities and rural areas alike.

[Linda]

Well, too bad about the wild west shows. I didn't now they featured Blackfoot performers. But we still haven't determined when all that began. I'll guess I'd say the 1880's, after all the Indian wars had been fought. How does that sound? So we'd have to be able to prove that a sizeable sample of blackfoot identified people were calling themselves that prior to 1880. How about all that documentation in the National Archives of people who applied to the Dawes roll in 1913 but were rejected? Has anyone who's familiar with these files seen any mention of Blackfoot? If some were claiming their great grandmother told them that in 1913, then we'd have pre-dated the stereotype.

But Nicole didn't tell you the other part. Her great grandmother insisted they were S'poni Blackfoot.

[Forest]

I have looked through the Guion Miller Roll Applications at some length (ca. 1908) The rejected applicants that I examined, hundreds from NC/Va/Mich/Indiana/ and so on never mentioned Blackfoot. But then, why would they? The purpose was to get on the Cherokee Roll, so, except for a number of Alabama Creeks who applied due to a misunderstanding, the applicants all claimed to be Cherokee. These applications also tended to come from geographic clusters, frequently where some local lawyer heard about the enrollment process and charged folks a fee to fill out their paper work, which supposedly would bring a big financial payback from the Federal Govt. Many familiar names applied: Revels, Richardson, Shoecraft, Roberts, Pompey, Bass, Pettiford, etc, but other modern Indian groups such as the Meherrin or Person Co. Indians had no one to apply, even tho many of their people claimed to be Cherokee at the time. Not every community heard about it.

[vance hawkins]

howdy yall.

many were rejected from Dawes (1906-1909) simply because they did no meet the criteria. That criteria was i.] You or your direct ancestors (not uncles and aunts) were listed on the 1880 and 1896 census of the Cherokee Nation (to be on htose censuses you or your ancestors had to be living in the 14 counties of N. E. Oklahoma that make up the old Cherokee Nation ii.] YOU also had to make your current home in one of those 14 counties. Some folks got around that, but very few, for one reason or another. They were the exception rather than the rule. Many Cherokee were and are not eligible for that reason alone, for tribal membership.

vance

[Linda]

I had a feeling you'd say that about the Dawson rolls. Somebody had told me how remarkably accurate much of the information on the applications were, so I was hoping maybe a few had thrown that in.

Are there any strategies that you two can think of that might help to ascertain the origins of this identification? Do you know of anyone who has seriously studied it? I've looked at it via the commonly available historical records, plus the personal reports of people I've come across, but I'm not a genealogist.

[edstp62]

Hello lets back up somewhat, this issue of Blackfoot being a popular ID, well I can tell you that I personally don't think so! I live in the heart of Blackfoot country , infact about 8 miles from the most sacred of Blackfoot sites, the Belly Buttes. These are named after the Belly River that flows near by. So if that's true about the term being very popular, then based on that all of the folks of African American descent up here would use those terms, but none do! Infact during our land grab years, many Oklahoma freemen from the tribes there moved here and none of those people have any terms for themselves that indicate otherwise. As well I have met many tribal people up here that are commonly called Cree/ metis but are Iroquois and from several other groups, but none of these groups say that they are Blackfoot,meaning Blackfoot from here or anywhere else. As for Mr. Remington I don't know how long he was around here but if you ananlyze his paintings it's clear that he really didin't pay much attention to detail. I will try and help with this Blackfoot id business by contacting family members that are from my Great Great Grandfathers brothers and sisters families to see if any of them have a simalar oral tradition. Certainly when I speak with my Great grandmothers sisters families they say yes in confirmation to this. These are folks that I know nothing about so it will be very interesting to see what they all have to say! Lastly some ways back on this topic was mention of many tribes that have all but disapeared, a friend once told me that these groups that people are calling extinct probably have descendants in any of the three racial communites that make up colonial Usa. when I find the info that we are looking for I'll post it here.

[itconani]

on commom ID -
I dont really think it is that common.the name may be, but the identification of one's self is not.
however, i am only talking about people in and out of indian circles. hence, people who either are not interested in indians or are not of indian descent have not pleaded much in the case of the blackfoot id. Additionally, i dont think the id travels far out of the south.
most people refelecting this material (again i say most - and this is only my experience) either are from the south geographically , culturally, or on a familial line - 2-4 generations removed, with some kinship still there. Maybe the id is only common in some circles in the mid atlantic region (note taken on exceptions) But, still i feel that that the name is common in terms of "known indians".
Anybody ever hear of the 70's to 80's rock band called Blackfoot? Hear the song "Train, Train"? Saw them in richmond va once. Interesting thought to consider what goes into a name.

anyway - on Remington
the time spent amongst the blackfoot was scattered and the time lived with them was short. by no means was he a blackfoot nut.
only lived with them for one winter in wintercamp and visited during other more mobile seasons.
additionally, the paintings are not what he spent time on during this period - instead sketches and drawings. these would be the reproducable materials for harper's weekly. however, he did spend alot of time depicting a wide subject matter - lots of cowboys and lots of indians.
im not sure to the reference from edstp62 on lack of detail. Remington was a gestural painter and used a broad brushstroke. his subjects are very impressionistic in an American sort of way; as with other impressionists he worked on the ideas of the subjects and his impressions of them. His work is pretty crude, but he does record some intersting material and is as a good a "cowboy artist" as youll find. for this conversation though, i believe the labelling of Remingtons drawings in harper's as Blackfoot indians was my point.

[troislangues]

We have Blackfoot marrying into Cherokee and residing in Texas and Kansas. The 'Blackfoot' identification is not that uncommon around here. My gggrandfather born in 1838 used that term. Also, I wonder if anyone here knows anything about the 'Whitefoot' Indians as I came across this name recently but no further explanation or resource was provided by the person using it.
Lastly, I'd like to say that I used to think that maybe our ancestors did not know what they were talking about but following much family research, I've come to realize they were very knowledgeable. It is a very Indian behavior to humbly accept at face-value what our elders tell us and this oftentimes conflicts with scientific technique.

[Linda]

Good to see you, trois, it's been awhile. Maybe you should recap for some of the newcomers why you don't think your family's "Blackfoot" identification relates to the Montana people.

[troislangues]

Sure thing Linda. My maternal ggrandmother and paternal grandfather were 3/4's and fullblood Blackfoot respectively. I still don't have any info on my maternal gggrandmother yet but I'm sure she was also of this Black Indian/Irish/Jewish mix, i.e. Melungeons. Grandmother married a Cherokee from Arkansas. All the family identifies as Cherokee/Blackfoot and they migrated from the Virginia/N.Carolina area to KY, MS, KS, TX etc. The town in Kansas our first ancestors migrated to from the Texas Exodus in 1879 was either Chetopa, KS in Cherokee Co. I spoke with the "African American" Historical Society and the curator, Fanny Bassett, says that the majority of the so-called Black people were actually Black Indians from out of Texas and that they had originally come from the southeastern region of the U.S. such as KY, MS. I have noticed in records that many people in TX prior to that mass exodus of 1879 were born in the Virginias/Carolinas, which would also be consistent with the migration patterns of Indians in exodus from out of East Tennessee etc. resting for a while in KY and MS. That's why I know there is no Montana connection for at least my particular family. It's a translation of a term into English much the same way "jibaro" in Puertorrican Spanish means "hillbilly" in Ozarkian. They are not the same group of hillbillies and are of different ethnic origins, nonetheless, they are both mountain peoples. The more I research my heritage, the more mixed bag I find such that I'm not feeling very true to myself in just claiming I am Creek/Cherokee(my paternal grandmother a member). I don't mention the Blackfoot because of the ostracism people receive in the MidWest when they claim they are Blackfoot. What I continually witness is near fullblood or White Indians rejecting Black Indian claims (and sometimes White people with this same identification) like they are stupid for having the thought. There literally thousands and out here and most of the Black people look like African/Indian mix. For some, ignorance is bliss. For others, it's tragedy because we need our G-dgiven heritage.

[Tom]

Buck the lack of detail I was refering to was that Remington painted warriors in battle astride womens saddles.troislangues thank you for your post, your familes times are not that much different from my own peoples.Good to hear from you.

[Linda]

Trois, did you and Cotton Top (Scott) ever compare notes on your families' migration routes? Seems like you all covered the same ground.

[bendingelm]

Hello everyone! I've just come on-line to this group. I'd like to thank Linda Carter for her surprisingly pleasant and prompt response upon my registration. I read the article suggested by Ms. Carter. I was incredibly inspired by the posting by "nclark"

I would like to contact "nclark" and each of you for clarification as many of you have searched. Oddly enough, my last name is Clark also.

------------------
Sincerely

[Linda]

Glad you found your way over here. Could you share some of the family info that leads you to investigate in this direction?

[Coharie Roy]

Don't know if this furthers the inquiry into the origins of the "other 'Blackfoot' Indians," but I thought I'd pass it along. The following quote is from a Shelby County, (Ohio ?) historian re: the killing of Col. Hardin, circa 1792.

"As Col. Johnston learned the facts from Black Hoof; head chief of the Shawnees and others,...."
http://www.loramie.k12.oh.us/Class%20Pages/Fifth%20Grade/5A/Local%20History/Captives%20and%20Massacres/Col%20Hardin/Col%20Hardin.htm

[Linda]

I pursued the theory for awhile that our Blackfoot ID was really "Black Hoof" all garbled. I did some research on Black Hoof and ran into a descendant of his, a very nice person. Ironically, it was this person who told me of a conversation on the Mingo E-List about the "Blackfoot of the Seneca" noted to have lived in Elkins, WV. I tell that story in the piece I wrote that's linked to my profile. www.winwinworld.net/Linda/Roots (http://www.winwinworld.net/Linda/Roots)

Thanks for the suggestion.

[Beverly McQuary]

I was thrilled to find your information on line about Blackfoot Indians in West Virginia. I grew up in Augusta Co. Va. and as a child my grandmother would tell me about her grandmother who was a Blackfoot Indian. Grandma was from Rockingham Co. She said that her grandfather Martin Snyder or John Martin Snyder "when over into West Virginia" and stole her from her tribe and that she was the chief's daughter. Grandma would tell me her indian name and I wish now that I would have written it down. She said he gave her an English name. It was Elizabeth or Sarah Elizabeth. She also has listed the same birthday as his. I have tried to find their marriage but have been unable to do so.
Their children where Mary, born about 1857;Willian about 1859; Elizabeth(my line) in the early 1860's Martin L.(unsure) Hannah 1866 and Fanny 1869 in Harrisonburg or Rockinghan Co. Va.

[Beverly McQuary]

I grew up in Augusta Co and as a child my grandmother would tell my about her grandmother who was a Blackfoot indian. Grandma was from Rockinghan Co. She said that her grandfather Martin Snyder or John Martin Snyder "went over into West Virginia" and stole her from her tribe and that she was the chief's daughter. Grandma would tell me her indian name and I wish mow that I would have written it all down. She said he gave her an English name. It was Elizabeth or Sarah Elizabeth. She also has listed the same birthday as his. I have tried to find their marriage but have been unable to do so. Their children were Mary born 1857; Willian 1859; Elizabeth(my line) early 1860's Martin L. then Hannah 1866; and Fanny 1869 in Harrisonburg or Rockingham Co. Va. From those children Elizabeth married Ashby Turner Vance on May 26, 1887 in Rockingham Co. Their union produced my grandma, Mable L (listed in Harrisonburg birth records as Maybell) Vance 1887 or 1888. She married William Preston Bellamy 1906 or 1908 in Harrisonburg. They produced Davis Franklin Bellamy in 1924 and I was born Oct. 1946 the first product from his marriage to Muriel Etta Aldridge (Watauge Co. N.C.) I am happy to finally make a conection to Blackfoot Indians in West Virginia. It proves Grandma was right.

[canwakiya]

Hi All,
I just joined the forum & although I'm a little late in responding to the posts, I thought I'd jump in here & clarify the Lakota(it also includes the Dakota & Nakota, if I'm not mistaken)translation of "Sihasapa"(Black Foot Sioux). Siha=foot & Sapa=black. Lakota,(as with many other languages) is kinda backward in it's use. Sihasapa is translated literally as Foot Black. I have been reading the old posts & am finding it all very interesting. I haven't seen any of my family surnames yet, but you can be sure that if I do, I'll be jumping in again. http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/redface.gif)
Pilamayaye(thank you,Lakota), Pidamayaye (thank you, Dakota), Pinamayaye(thank you,Nakota)

[Linda]

An update here: I learned about some objections to my Eastern Blackfoot theories, namely the alternate theory that this was an ID that people attached themselves to following the popularity of the western Blackfoot during the Wild West show days.

So . . . I've hoped to find some documentation of this ID that clearly predates the use of the word Blackfoot as a household word in the late 19th century.

Go to google and type in Blackfoot Town Maryland. Click on the link about Gen. Dagsworthy. Dagswood DE, was initially a part of Maryland. Founded in 1747, it was called Blackfoot Town. Dagsworthy had the name changed to Dagsbury in 1780's, or as listed on http://delgensoc.org/deltowns.html



Blackfoot Town (SX) became Dagsborough in 1785

Last week three (ostensibly) completely unrelated individuals contacted me. One was apparently a cousin, who told me that our Hudson ancestors were likely from Fredericks, MD.

The second person was a white lady now in AZ, who has family who lived in Emmitsburg, MD (20 miles north of Fredericks). They carry a story that they are Blackfoot and that they "escaped from Virginia."

The third person is from a Black Indian community in the same locale in MD, some of the old folks say they came from Blackfoot town. An old lady had just relayed the story that they had "escaped from Virginia" and come to live in those mountains. (Same exact words).

Oh, Dagsburough, DE is 20 miles north of Emmitsburg.

Dag!

[Linda]

I've been stearing people to this thread, so I thought I'd bring it forward.

[CoheeLady]

Dear Itconani,
Regarding your post on 1-02-2002, you listed the Monacan's as being (Buffalo Ridge Cherokee). This is not correct, as most not all Buffalo Ridge Cherokee's are of African American & Cherokee ancestry. The Monacans are English/Irish & Indian. The Buffalo Ridge Cherokee's were denied state recognition. As they first went before the Va. Council of Indians, with a large quantity of proof. Even with that they were turned down, only due to there African American ancestry. The Monacan Indians have a person that sits on the Va. Council of Indians, that made that decision. I'll get to the point. The Monacan's do not welcome, any other tribe in the area in which they NOW LIVE. As this is not their original homeland!!!!! It was closer to Richmond orginally. But who cares if they change history> I DO.
Sincerely,
Coheelady
NOTE; THANK YOU FOR ALLOWING ME TO VENT MY FRUSTRATION, IN A KIND BUT DIRECT & TRUTHFUL MANNER. http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/wink.gif

[CoheeLady]

Dear Itconani,
Regarding your post on 1-02-2002, you listed the Monacan's as being (Buffalo Ridge Cherokee). This is not correct, as most not all Buffalo Ridge Cherokee's are of African American & Cherokee ancestry. The Monacans are English/Irish & Indian. The Buffalo Ridge Cherokee's were denied state recognition. As they first went before the Va. Council of Indians, with a large quantity of proof. Even with that they were turned down, only due to there African American ancestry. The Monacan Indians have a person that sits on the Va. Council of Indians, that made that decision. I'll get to the point. The Monacan's do not welcome, any other tribe in the area in which they NOW LIVE. As this is not their original homeland!!!!! It was closer to Richmond orginally. But who cares if they change history> I DO.
Sincerely,
Coheelady
NOTE; THANK YOU FOR ALLOWING ME TO VENT MY FRUSTRATION, IN A KIND BUT DIRECT & TRUTHFUL MANNER. http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/wink.gif

[Linda]

I was going to say I knew some Monacans with African heritage, but then, I also know that they have had a hard time being acknowledged by the official tribe because of it.

[CoheeLady]

Dear Linda,
Thank you for telling me that there are
Monacans with African American ancestry. I wish them well. My mother & I have met with the Virginia Historical Society regarding the Tribe & our family. The Society stated that we had more proof of Indian ancestry than that of the Monacans. The Monacans have only been in the area less than 300 years, as they were living in a area near Richmond, that is called Manakin Town. In many history books you will find them listed as living "above the falls", referring to the James River. But most people are unaware that in Va., there are two "falls", one in Richmond & one at Natural Bridge in the mountains. The Monacans original homeland was above the Richmond falls, not Natural Bridge. However there is a sign at the falls in Natural Bridge that tells a different story. So much for us trying to fix the mistakes in history regarding American Indians in Virgina. One step forward & two steps back! I am in no way tryng to disrespect the Monacan's, they are Indian & deserve respect. However they need to understand that they are not the only group of people with ancestors in the mountains that are Indian. So out of respect for my ancestors I shall tell the truth.
Sincerely,
Coheelady http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif

[Linda]

There's been a lot of hoopla online about the Monacans. Some Cherokee out of the midwest seemed to be doing some kind of smear campaign on them awhile back that irked me. They were saying the Monacans are really Cherokee, as if anybody can claim pure descent with 100% knowledge of everybody they come from, in these parts. I've seen a lot of Saponi names in Cherokee camps. We need to leave each other alone about this.

On that subject, I heard last week that in 1870 there were something like 2,000 Tutel's living at Six Nations or thereabouts. In 1871 there were zero. They hadn't all died out. They'd just been redefined as Cayuga or soemthing.

Anyway, all the descendant's of these tribes decimated so long ago are a mixed crew. When are we going to get over that?

[vance hawkins]

Hi.

Cohee Lady,

"The Monacans have only been in the area 300 years" -- I thought that was funny. My ancestors were shoved west for 100 years, but have stayed "relatively" put for the last 120 or 150 or so years. But 300 years ago? They are all lost in the mist to me. I don't know where any of them were that long ago. http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif

Linda,

What's this about "Cherokees of the Midwest" wantin' to claim Monacan are really Cherokee? I never heard that, but I'm lis'nin' & learnin'.

Most Cherokee I know here in Oklahoma want Eastern Tribes and people to quit claiming to be Cherokee and assert many of the folks in the East were realy descended from other smaller tribes, and they are not Cherokee.

vance

[Linda]

I got some unsolicited emails from someone who called himself White Eagle, I believe it was, who said he was Amonsoquath, and then went on at length about how the Monacans are really Cherokees. I'm in no position to know one way or another, but I didn't appreciate the hostile way it was being broadcast.

[CoheeLady]

Hello Vance & Linda!
It's no secret regarding the Monacans being Cherokee. In the book, "Indian Island", it has interviews with the Monacan people regarding how they lived most of their life believing they were Cherokee. They do not dispute this claim. However after the book was written they claimed that they are Monacan instead of Cherokee. So "White Feather" probably got his information from the book that was written about the Monacans.

I am not out to disrespect anyone. Personally it doesn't matter what tribe your ancestors were from, we are all as one, & need to work together. That was the point I was trying to make in my previous post.

Take me as an example, I was told that we are Cherokee, on my mother's side. My great grandfather said his grandmother was Indian. On her Marriage Bond it clearly states "INTERMARRIAGE". Even though both bride & groom are listed as white. One ancestor is buried on Shawnee Hill in Vesuvius, Virginia. A book claims we are Tuckahoes & Cohees. Then on my father's side,
his mother was born on the Pamunkey River. My dads brother looks Indian, but they swear that they aren't. So, until I can prove otherwise I am Cherokee.
Sincerely,
Coheeslady

[This message has been edited by CoheeLady (edited 12-11-2002).]

[vance hawkins]

Well I guess that explains it pretty well, about the Monacan I mean. Thanks.

If you ask Oklahoma Cherokee tho, you'll hear "Cherokees were never in Virginia" by some.

From what I've been reading it seems maybe they were in SW Va and W Va, & probably made war party trips up there from time to time. But they were not home, jut there a short while and left. Is that what ya'll think? I might be wrong, ya know . . .

vance

[Linda]

I know someone who can make quite a case that there were Cherokee in Virginia. He's something of a maverick researcher. He also believes a lot of what we assume were Powhatan tribes were really Siouan, based on the linguistics.

The western part of the state is awfully close to the generally accepted Cherokee range, isn't it? And territories shifted so much. I wouldn't say they were "never" in VA, personally.

[CoheeLady]

To Vance & Linda,

I know how some people feel about there being Cherokee's in Virginia, some people in Va. don't even believe it. However times have changed & the ones that think it's only a myth are few. In 1835 the boundaries were changed & Virginia was no longer a part of Cherokee Country as it had been, legally. But the people were still Cherokee, a boundary change can't take away your true ancestry, only cover it up.

Due to many intermarriages with Europeans the Cherokee's of Virginia exist today in a large number. We can't discount someone's heritage, due to their ancestor's choice of a husband or wife. On the Virginia Council of Indians there is a Cherokee representitive. This to me is a big step in the right direction & a sign of respect to the Cherokee population of Virginia. I am glad I lived long enough to see it!

Vance I am glad to know that I could help you understand the Monacan Cherokee story. Also, Linda I want to thank you very much for your kind words in regards to Virginia Cherokees.

Sincerely,
Coheelady http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif

[Tom]

Hello All, what a question to postulate over, Cherokees in VA?,
When I was researching materials in the Smithsonian, I found a northern style purse typical of the MicMAc etc, listed as made by a Cherokee lady from VA, also I have a good friend that has a basket her grandmother made as a girl when she lived in VA, perhaps a reference book to tribal territories could answer this question. Certainly the Cherokee people were as high up as the Ohio and down near the Okeefenokee swamp, so probably VA aswell. Alll the best Tom

[CoheeLady]

Dear Tom,
Thanks for the information on the research you did at the Smithsonian. It is silly to question the existance of Cherokee's in Virginia, but it has been done for years. After the boundary change in the 1800's Va. was no longer Cherokee territory. So all those that stayed behind were no longer officially Cherokee. If someone has Cherokee ancestry at birth, you can't take it away, simple as that. Thanks again for your kind words!
Sincerely,
Coheelady

[CoheeLady]

Hello All,
If you go to www.cherokee.org (http://www.cherokee.org) you will find on their home page what's called "Cutural Tidbits". It states, "BECAUSE OF OUR TREATY STATUS, THE DISTINCTION OF BEING CHEROKEE IS A STATUS OF CITIZENSHIP, NOT A RACIAL ISSUE."
This is the site of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma.
Sincerely,
Coheelady

[Linda]

To answer some of the first issues raised on this thread with some new data, I've just been told there is documentation at Six Nations of people called Blackfoot who joined them in the 18th century, after coming up from Virginia.

This is another bit of documentation showing that the use of the word "Blackfoot" to describe VA Indians was in use a century or more before the word became popular in usage after the Wild West shows of the 1890s.

Also, the idea that it's unlikely the word would have been used as a straight translation right off the bat without any corruption is dispelled by the usage out west. Both the Blackfoot Sioux (Sihisapa) and the Algonquin Blackfoot usally associated with the name (Siksika) went straight to the English translation without a hitch. Why should it be any different here? If Sihisapa means Black foot, then why shouldn't they too, switch to the English translation as readily as the other two groups?

[vance hawkins]

Also the mention of the "Blackfoot" Church (historically stated as having that name because of the Blackfoot Indians living nearby)in Pike County, Indiana dated to the end of the 18th century, to me that means the 1790s probably. My ancestors were near there about that time and we have proof of it. Oour ancestors before this were in Virginia where the Eastern Blackfoot also were. It is possible this is a coincidence. But I think it is more than that now. A year ago I might not have said that. I am ready to accept more things now, than I was then.

I think this speaks of a migration that eventually wound up in Arkansas and Missouri, as this is where my ancestors went and it is the rout the northern branch of my ancestors took. My southern migration was undoubtably Chickamauga Cherokee, but these other people undoubtedly were not, I'm prertty sure, and they mixed with the Cherokee. Also I have seen others say their "Blackfoot" ancestors mixed with the "Cherokee", and I think I have discovered that happened to out family as well.

I am grateful to everyone here for helping me discover these things.

And it is important and good to be skeptical, because there are charlaitans out there who will take advantage of our desire to find our ancestors. I have just come full circle I think -- from being gullible and believing all the groups out there and their claims, to disbelieving most of the groups who are not federally recognized, to thinking now there is a lot of truth found and I don't know much of it! :)

The only way to discover what is true and what is not is historical research, I think. But I might be wrong here too.

So there was a migration of Eastern Blackfoot to the Six Nations too, huh? Is seems ALL the Eastern tribes either died out and intermixed in the East, or went North to Canada/Six Nartions, or fled to the Ozarks and winding up near Missouri, Arkansas, or Oklahoma doesn't it? Too many people have heard these family stories and can back it up with other things, for it to not be true.

vance hawkins

[vance hawkins]

go to this web site for a description of a fake group calling itself Cherokee, this time in Massachussettes of all places! CNO and EBC and UKB constantly have to put up with stuff like this.

http://64.4.16.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=e9b319251b4d87dee004a823f35401da&lat=1040495497&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2enativewarrior%2eorg %2fhooker%2ehtm

Sometimes they don't know what is real and what is not, and generalize about the unenrolled just as many unenrolled generalize about the enrolled. Both us and them need to quit generalizing and take each situation on its own merit.

vance

[Linda]

Bringing forward

[sammarroq]

I have been reading these threads and can see good constructive conflict here, much creativity comes from conflict, as long a we are all striving for the same thing, truth. There is a wealth of information in the individuals on this site and I really am enjoying learning so much about the Saponi/Blackfoot. A little personal history; I was born in Kalispell, Montana. My maternal grandfather was a cattle/sheep rancher in Lone Pine, which is on the Flathead reservation. Just over the hill (Glacier Park) is Browning, which is the hub you could say of the Blackfeet reservation. My mother drove school bus there for many years. My mother told me my father was Blackfeet, and as a person from that part of the country, I automatically thought, "Oh, Montana Blackfoot" (I did not meet my father until I was 18, and knew nothing of him). Later I found out my father was from West Virginia and his mother's family from the Grundy area of Virginia. My first thought was Blackfoot? Virginia? Then I happened upon this site and have found so many answers, though not enough to end the search. I commend all of you for hepling the novice, such as myself to learn more and to keep digging, Thanks.

Shirley

[Tom]

hello and welcome to SAponi Town if I hadn't done so already, I too live in the land of crooked trees and chinook winds,
Smile!

[sammarroq]

Hi Tom,

Most of my threads have been under geneology, but I frequent the other forums delving into the mass of info on Saponi history etc. I now live in Minnesota, but my sisters, aunt, uncle, and cousins (materal) still live in Montana. My Uncle and aunt live in the Polson/Ronan area and my sisters in the Eastern part of the state Plentywood and Forsyth. I am thankful for all the research you all do to help us in our searches. Thanks for the welcome.

Shirley

[techteach]

Shirley,
Glad you found us. Welcome.

Techteach

[sammarroq]

Thanks for the Techteach.

Shirley

[dovelady]

Ok, I've been trying to read all the old posts when I can. I've been working my way through them and am still a little confused about why the Eastern Blackfoot isn't connected to the regular Blackfoot? Is it a matter of language? or traditions? or location or? Couldn't the Eastern Blackfoot have migrated to the mid-west centuries ago, intermarried into the plains tribes??

I'm trying hard to understand this part of my ancestry and with all the tribes merging into other tribes and then those merging again and then mixing with other nationalities, etc.. I'm just a little overwhelmed and a little depressed at this point and find myself saying what the freak is the use of trying to find out who I am. It seems an impossible dream to me at this point.

It seems that there has been so many merges that we'll never know who we are! We are a virtual Indian Hienz 57 !! And that leaves me feeling more alone in my search than ever before. Anyone else ever felt like this. And can you please explain the difference in the Eastern Blackfoot and the 'regular' Blackfoot in terms that I can understand.

Thanks.. Barb

[techteach]

Barb:

I am not sure that they were not once connected. There are some threads that indicate some stories of long-ago migrations. Certainly, there is documentation that some western Sioux tribes could speak to and understand the eastern Sioux tribes. That alone says something.



Techteach

[dovelady]

Thank you tech. I'm trying to learn as much as I can, and it does get a bit confusing at times.

:)

[Linda]

The "regular' Blackfoot are Algonquin. They speak an entirely different language and have a different culture. Also, the Algonquin were often enemies at various points of various Siouan groups.

But there IS a Blackfoot group we may be related to, the Sihisapa of the Teton Sioux. 'Sihisapa' means "blackfoot" in Lakota. 'Issi asepa hiye' means 'blackened foot' in Tutelo (Saponi). The town of Saxapahaw, NC is a corruption of this word. It may just be a reference to people who did a lot of farming, since slash and burn techniques were used to clear fields prior to planting.

[dovelady]

Thank you Linda for making that clear for me. I was confused about it.

As always, you are a wealth of information :)

[techteach]

Oops, that was the group I meant.

Techteach

[george221]

Hay everybody,I am looking for the tribe I belong to,I am part of the crump family, and as for as I know we have always been in Missouri.
I'm also looking for the closest reservation to me in southeast missouri

[techteach]

George:
Do you have the Blackfoot ID in your family? Several folks from MO have this ID and are on this forum. The Blackfoot we are referring to have their basis in very old (circa 1700s) eastern tribes who may have stayed east or moved west. There is no reservation, however, we know of several instances of the term Blackfoot Indian being the cause of location names, one in DE and one in Indiana.
This ID is in my family who went to IA. Your surname is a surname in my hometown in IA.

You might try to post your family lines to the genealogy section. That might connect you with folks on this forum.

And welcome aboard.

Techteach

[amajid]

I am a black man and I was told that many African Slaves were runing away from the salve owners..They join the Indians and had kids with the Indians and became family ties with them. I also was told that that name was created because the Indians foot wear was painted black black. Another was the Indian community was becoming populated with mix black Indians. Many stories were told about the Blackfoot, but hold some true facts. The Indians have lose many true identies but hold on to their culture. All through the world races have lose their roots, but not like the Indians. The land of the United States hold the riches of the True Indian Accestory, and I hope to find it. I looking for my Indian Accestry more than the African Accestry. True beliefs, strenght, warrior, and leadership is there. We that have Indian accestors are should be proud people. I am proud of all you.


AMajid

[blackindiangirl]

I know this is a pretty old thread, but I've been in recent contact with a registered Cherokee Indian from Missouri. I was searching for info on my Blackfoot ID "Mayo", and joined a Black Dutch group. This person was VERY hesitant to talk with me because of my screenname. But with both of us conversing with the desire to solidify our roots, he has eventually become more open to me now because our surnames match almost to a "T". Guess what? His people originated right here in VA where I live and in NC. He finally believes that we are definitely related.

So I believe that there has been so many joining and mixing of tribes throughtout time, that we cannot say that we are of just one tribe from any one particular location. My ggrandmother was a Pamunkey Indian and my ggrandfather was Mattaponi (or viceversa). But the two tribes dealt with each other all the time that it's understandable that they intermarried. These two reservations are not very far from each other in King William Co. VA. Anyways......

Just my 2 cents.:cool:

[Bill Childs]

2 cents... or is it 3 or 4 cents?
I recognize our genealogy was 'split' way back when
and that we may never put humpty-dumpty together again
but that does not mean we should disregard facts in evidents
(s.i.c. - poetic license)

[blackindiangirl]

I think it may be 4-5 cents.:D

[notherblackfoot]

hi,i just joined.i knew my maternal great grandmother (maiden name gurganus,which we were told was changed from "gunselow")was (at least part) native american and recently i found out that she said to her children and grandchildren that she was "blackfoot". she was a good woman and i have no reason to doubt her.she lived in north carolina.(somewhere in the martin,pitt,beaufort co. area) i also recently found out that her husband,my maternal great grandfather (leggett) was also part native american,what tribe i don't know as of yet.i also recently found out that my father's mother's side of the family contained "black dutch" which can be a euphamism for alot of things as we know! i do know that her maiden name "branham" is both a monacan and a melungeon name.they lived in the extreme western part of virginia and just over the kentucky line.i am also curious about the dna testing that alot of people are doing now,not that i can afford it or know what the results would mean,but knowing my roots is becoming increasingly important to me and i would like to pass the knowledge on to my children.another curious thing,i have type b- blood which i inherited from my mother.i know that most or all "pure" native americans are not supposed to have type b,so i'm assuming it's from somewhere else.i look foward to hearing everyone's (anyone's?) response to any of this.

[techteach]

Welcome, nother,
Why not post your names to the genealogy section? Bill will help you find some of your folks. Most of us have similar stories. I do.
As for DNA, the mtDNA will measure straight female lines. If you have a male, the line is broken, although that male can be measured for his mother's mtDNA test. The male test works for the straight male line also. If a female breaks it, it does not follow that line. One other test measures an estimation of the NA you have. I tested a male relative who was a straight descendent from one of my suspected ancestors. I also tested myself for mtDNA. And I tested myself with the percentage test. There are other conversations on this forum. Use the search tool and you can read those.

Again, welcome.

Techteach

[Bill Childs]

The ABO blood group is disease-vector dictated and not necessarily indicative of ethnic relatedness. The ABO of an individual can change within a generation without being reflected within a sampling of the population of which that individual is a 'member' .
(think regressive allele)
While the frequency of specific ABO Types vary in aboriginal populations by area, every combination of the ABO system is found in ALL populations - just at different frequencies, including B negative in No.Amer. populations, although it is less than 2%, it's still there.

Earlier assertions to the contrary, there has only been one worldwide sampling of human genetics and that one has only skimmed the surface even statistically, so we all have to take it at face value and know that there is always more to know! about everything.
(see "The History and Geography of Human Genes", Cavalli-Sforza, et.al., at your library or college book store).
The idea that a specific individual's blood type could determine where that person's ancestors came from, was refuted many decades ago. The frequencies of specific blood types WITHIN a population, can help determine that populations's relatedness to another population, so long as not too much time has separated those two populations, but the comparison fails when comparing one individual in one population to another individual in a second population.

[quest for facts]

notherblackfoot,
The Gurganus family I am aware of lives in Martin County. The first guy I dated many many years ago was a Gurganus from Martin County LOL we dated about 3 months so I don't know a thing about his family history. Just thought it was something to smile about since you say they are NA. It's possible his sister was dark but he was not. We had a car accident on our first date LOL
Linda

[quest for facts]

By the way my grandfather bought land from the Leggett family many years ago.

[Bill Childs]

Are you saying you made him miss a curve on th first date?!
(no disrespect intended - G*D, I apologize.... 'un tu all thos.. )
Seriously! That's a funny story! I'm teared-up-cher!

[quest for facts]

It is funny LOL and I had nothing to do with that accident not a darn thing Bill Childs LOL

[techteach]

Shame on you, Bill. Am I going to have to ban you :D ? And in my area. Going to have to think of some way to get you back for giving my area a pg rating :p .

Techteach

[PappyDick]

I was just surfing around on the TV and paused awhile on a not-very-recent TV documentary, to wit: "Langston Hughes: The Dream Keeper." South Carolina Educational Television Network, a New York Center for Visual History production; director, St. Clair Bourne; producer, Robert Chapman. Santa Barbara, Calif.; Intellimation, 1988.

(That's from the Web, not my TV guide. It was on the Annenberg cable channel, they don't rate a column in the guide anyhow.)

During the show there are a couple of clips from what was either a filmed play, or a movie -- I guess, scripted by Hughes (they didn't really say, while I was watching). There are two characters at a Harlem bar, and one of them (maybe the bartender) says, "I'm not a Negro; I'm a Blackfoot Indian."

That sort of stood out, after reading this forum a lot for the past several months.

[Bill Childs]

PappyDick,
Having read thru all of 'this', I'd be interested in your 'take-away' on that program, as you discern this overall research direction.
Bill

[blackindiangirl]

That reminds me, Pappydick. There is an old movie that Steven Seagal played in called "The Patriot". It's about a group of "patriot" vigilante Americans who want to pay the gov't. back, so they were gonna kill themselves and a whole town by spreading an airborne disease. (using some biological weapon they had got ahold of.) Anyway, the disease mutated and the antibiotic no longer worked.

The town ended up being saved by flying helicopters and sprinkling the whole town with a wild flower that Seagal's grandfather who called himself "an old Blackfoot Indian" grew in his garden. I think they were out in the Midwest, not in the East.

Just sharing......

[rockhound]

Thought I would add this...

techteach posted a link to a PBS program called "African American Lives" (or something similar). One of the stories shared on that website reported that someone is listed in an 1850 Alabama census as a Blackfoot Indian. I will look into it and post anything I find.

[mrspatino]

I just wanted hmm it's not neccasarily to add but it maybe a valuable piece of info to stick in the memory banks. I was talkin to a Lahkota bro and we had a deep convo about Saponi he was telling me that we along with 4 or 5 other groups split from the Lakota, Assinebone was another group shoot i dont think i spelled that right. and ill have to get back what the others were cus i forgot. I know not good. but i'll work on it.

[mdfreels]

I don't know all of the details and I haven't done any real investigation on this subject. But my great grandmother always said we were Blackfoot indian. I originally thought she meant the tribe in Montana, but none of our family originated there. They all originated in the NC-VA area where most of america did.

[techteach]

Welcome MD.

Search for your surnames and see if you have relatives here. Post on the genealogy site and maybe Bill can find you a connection.


Techteach

[tianicwanga]

hi everyone
in reading the responses in this forum i would like to share my own expirernces as i am also a mixed person . I only learned about the Saopni after starting to do research on my family history . My family was told that my g-grandmother was half Cherokee and half Blackfoot and once i researched and founf out the the Montana Blackfoot was always there i started to Question where the Blackfoot id came from in my family since this side of my family was from Maryland and Virginia so i googled east coast Blackfoot and found this site. It was only then that i learned aout the Saponi tribe and history and that they also carried the Blackfoot id .
Althought i haven't found any documents to connect her to the Saponi or other tribes yet because i am still in the beginning stages of my research i now know that i should be looking here and not in Montana for my ancestors .

[Native1]

Hi, at least you are on the right track. Can anybody point me in the right direction as far as research is concerned? Finding out about my Native American ancestry is just as important to me as my African ancestry.
By the way, my grandtwins who are almost 5 yrs. old, were in a school play about Thanksgiving. To make a long story short, their teacher referred to the Native American people of that time as "Indians". Now, I don't pretend to know everything, but I thought the word "Indian" was frowned upon in the Native American community. Please, someone set me straight on this.

Thank you.

[techteach]

Actually, when I was out on Pine Ridge Reservation the week before last, they called themselves Indians.

Techteach

[DAJ42]

My wife is full blood Indian, tribal member and all. In the past 16 years, she has used the term "Native American" once - when we were obtaining our marriage license. Otherwise, she refers to herself as Indian. I NEVER hear the phrase "Native American" at the powwows or traditional gatherings, either.

[Wachinika]

I think it’s fairly universal that if you are talking of people from a specific tribe to refer to them by that name, such as the people of Pine Ridge, or the Oglala. Siouan speaking tribes don’t like to be called Sioux but by the name of their nation, Rosebud, Winnebago, etc.

I do remember a few years back that for a while “Indian” was frowned upon. Now it seems to have just been turned into one of the many ways to criticize Columbus. Out this way, Indian has been most used by tribal members I’ve known. There is the popular NDN reference.

As a general designator, you won’t insult too many people with Indian, Native American, or American Indian. If someone doesn’t like a specific term they will let you know then you can apologize.:)

[sammarroq]

I think it’s fairly universal that if you are talking of people from a specific tribe to refer to them by that name, such as the people of Pine Ridge, or the Oglala. Siouan speaking tribes don’t like to be called Sioux but by the name of their nation, Rosebud, Winnebago, etc.

I do remember a few years back that for a while “Indian” was frowned upon. Now it seems to have just been turned into one of the many ways to criticize Columbus. Out this way, Indian has been most used by tribal members I’ve known. There is the popular NDN reference.

As a general designator, you won’t insult too many people with Indian, Native American, or American Indian. If someone doesn’t like a specific term they will let you know then you can apologize.:)


I too have heard most refer to their particular tribe, Santee, Oglala, etc. We all know the term Indian goes back to Columbus and Native American, well America was named after Amerigo Vespucci an Italian merchant:confused: Neither term is really a description of those native to this land. I guess one could ask the individual/s what they prefer.:)

[dovelady]

Hi Native 1. My Sioux-blackfoot friend scoffed at the term Native American. She hated it. She always referred to herself as Indian.

[matthew72]

Hi, my name is Matthew Griffin. I am looking for my BlackFoot? ancesters. My Great-Grandmother was named Grace Winktempeck; I have been told she was 100% BlackFoot. She lived in the Choctaw Nation, Oklahoma. The town name was Tammie. I was happy to learn of my heritage until I saw that the BlackFoot Tribes lived in Montana and Canada. I thought to myself, "How did a Montana Tribe get to Oklahoma?" I was puzzled. Then, I saw an article about the Sioux having a subset or something calling themselves BlackFoot. My question is this= "Am I a Blackfoot from Montana or am I a BlackFoot from the Sioux Nation?":confused:

[joanneterry]

Hi matthew72, I ask myself the same question. My great grandfather was of Caucasian decendent. He looked Caucasian, but during my reseach of Blackfoot for a report I did for my college skills course I found out my he was also Blackfoot. I understand the history of Blackfoot, but it still leave me with the question;was he Native Blackfoot or just called Blackfoot?

[techteach]

Matthew:

The folks on this forum with Blackfoot stories in their backgrounds are not from the western Blackfoot. Our ancestors came from east from an earlier time period. My Blackfoot ancestor was from western PA, born in 1814.

Techteach

[Linda]

Yes, please see our article at www.saponitown.com/Blackfoot.htm

[matthew72]

Hi, my name is Matthew Griffin. I am looking for my BlackFoot? ancesters. My Great-Grandmother was named Grace Winktempeck; I have been told she was 100% BlackFoot. She lived in the Choctaw Nation, Oklahoma. The town name was Tammie. I was happy to learn of my heritage until I saw that the BlackFoot Tribes lived in Montana and Canada. I thought to myself, "How did a Montana Tribe get to Oklahoma?" I was puzzled. Then, I saw an article about the Sioux having a subset or something calling themselves BlackFoot. My question is this= "Am I a Blackfoot from Montana or am I a BlackFoot from the Sioux Nation?":confused:

I just found out Grace's last name was in fact WINKLEPECK. I got the spelling wrong from my grandmother. She is old and her memory is not what it used to be.

[Linda]

That's certainly a unique name, which we haven't heard here before. Have you tried doing any genealogical digging on that name? I don't think Oklahoma has come up often before, either. Try using our search feature and see what you find.

It could, theoretically, be accounted for if someone with that ID got caught up in the Removal in 1830 and landed in OK. If your Blackfoot ID is connected with the one we're researching here, that would be the simplest explanation.

[Michelle Small]

Hello forum
I am orginally from North Carolina and my family and I am wanting to know some history about our ancestory. My grandad died before my mother was born and I was unable to know about my family history. My mother was 1/2 Haliwa-Saponi ancestory yet I have only her record of attending school in college as her only record of her claiming her Haliwa-Saponi ancestory. My family would like to know about the history of the CAUDLE people in Brinkleyville(holliester area) and ways we can claim our ancestory rights as 1/4 Haliwa-Saponi tribe?My grandad was Samuel Caudle and great granddad Limuel Caudle.My cousins are related to Richardson and Lynch.Please any info would be helpful.
B BLESSED

[Linda]

I'm not sure if this is the policy, but I've heard buzz that you could be the chief's grandson, but if you moved away, you wouldn't be Haliwa anymore. I hope that was just gossip and it's not true, but I've heard enough of it that it may be a good idea to steele yourself for something all those lines. Good luck.

Look up Jade, (Buffalowoman) here on the forum. She's got Haliwa roots too.

[Michelle Small]

Thank you very much.... my grandfather died and some if not all our history was lost before I knew I was part Indian. I want to KNOW HOW I and my family could past the hertiage of the Haliwa people to the up coming generation. I will ask Jade for more information about my grandady and great granddaddy. Thank you for your information.
Michelle Small
Caudle decendant


I'm not sure if this is the policy, but I've heard buzz that you could be the chief's grandson, but if you moved away, you wouldn't be Haliwa anymore. I hope that was just gossip and it's not true, but I've heard enough of it that it may be a good idea to steele yourself for something all those lines. Good luck.

Look up Jade, (Buffalowoman) here on the forum. She's got Haliwa roots too.

[Matsane]

I just finished reading all the posts on this forum. Now I have more of a mystery than I did before. As I told in my story when I first joined, we were always told we were part Blackfoot. Growing up in the southwest, we assumed this referred to the Montana Blackfeet tribe. When I started researching my family history I quickly figured out that none of my ancestors lived where the Blackfeet lived. All but one of the Indian lines in my family originated in the southeast - in Virginia, Kentucky and the Carolinas.

All of my grandparents were born in Kansas. Their families came to Kansas from Illinois, Indiana or Ohio. My great-grandfather, George Milligan, is the one who passed down the story of our Blackfoot blood. Now I'm wondering if he actually knew the specific tribe or not. I know his mother claimed to be 1/4 Indian but she died when George was 16. Did he remember her story correctly? George's brother, Ezra, was good friends with Buffalo Bill and for most of my life we thought we were related to Bill. We remember it being Sioux who were part of Bill's show but after reading some of these posts I'm wondering if there were, indeed, some Blackfeet in Bill's shows as well. I can't help but wonder if this might have some bearing on the identification of the specific tribe. Then again, since the majority of the members of Bill's shows were Sioux, would it not make more sense for Sioux to be the tribe instead of Blackfoot - if this is where the tribal identification originated?

All I know for sure is that we are not Montana Blackfeet. My ancestors, Thomas Ellis and Judah Wright, were born in the Carolinas, migrated to Indiana, then Illinois. Their descendants ended up in Kansas. Did they pick up the Blackfoot designation in the midwest or did it come with them from the southeast? Sure wish I knew. :confused:

I grew up in the southeastern corner of Colorado and now live in northwestern New Mexico. The Navajo, Ute and Apache people live in this area. While the names of their tribes are well known, you do not find people claiming to be from those tribes unless they really are. The Blackfeet were a tribe that people feared, to take on their designation without being one seems quite strange to me. Especially during a time when a lot of people were trying to hide their Indian blood in general, let alone the blood of a tribe like the Blackfeet. Personally, I have often wondered if Blackfoot might have been a slang term for Indian in general, or perhaps as has been mentioned, a slang term for people of mixed blood.

One last thing, in public my friends and I usually refer to ourselves as American Indian but in private we call ourselves Indian or NDN. Most people around here use their specific tribal designations. Some of the government signs use the word Indian. If pressed to choose, I would say about half the people prefer Native American and the other half prefer American Indian or Indian. Like most things, it probably depends on the day you ask. :)

Matsane

[Michelle Small]

I was reading the last post and thought that this quote was the best in referencing your statement. The migration of siouan Indians and mixture of various cultures does not illiminate the fact of YOUR OR MY Indian heritage. As I search further into my indian hertiage, I find my mother was more than 1/2 Saponi Indian and 1/4 Lakota. We need to understand the migration of the Souian Indian to include those mixing with other cultures without illimating the fact of our "Indianness". The quadroon law was made to divide our people not bring them together. So what they were from Carolina/VA they all derived from the same suspected tribe located within the montana region.The migration of Indians from the west I suspect could have adpoted the present culture in the order of social survival. Please some reference LINDA(or correction..I am a humble correctable Indian):p

The "regular' Blackfoot are Algonquin. They speak an entirely different language and have a different culture. Also, the Algonquin were often enemies at various points of various Siouan groups.

But there IS a Blackfoot group we may be related to, the Sihisapa of the Teton Sioux. 'Sihisapa' means "blackfoot" in Lakota. 'Issi asepa hiye' means 'blackened foot' in Tutelo (Saponi). The town of Saxapahaw, NC is a corruption of this word. It may just be a reference to people who did a lot of farming, since slash and burn techniques were used to clear fields prior to planting.

[roca]

Dear Michelle,

(Message #108) What is the "quadroon law"?

Roca

[Michelle Small]

This was apart of the Jim Crow Laws established and implemented in southern states to determine race and now I believe “underwritten” standard rule of thumb in determining (mixed) racial identity. I was simply indicating that some of these rules which were very stupid were made to divide our people in 1/4, 1/16,1/8<SUP>th</SUP> categories which are not really necessary in order of significance of Indianess. We are Indians which have mixed cultures whether they are black white, Spanish, Asian or whatever culture. It has caused the divide of true Indianness in that individual and has them questioning the authenticity or genuineness if they could be or not be true Indians. I was simply commenting on the last person who did not correlate the Blackfoot nation in Montana with the Virginia/NC Blackfoot which somehow demoted them as being Indians by being a mixture of Black ancestry it was not a big stretch people migrated and mixed into other cultures.:o MIXED INDIANS ARE STILL INDIANS!! Here is some information on that crazy quadroon law which was made to divide our people….:mad:

The one-drop rule is a historical colloquial term in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) that holds that a person with any trace of sub-Saharan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan) ancestry (however small or invisible) cannot be considered white (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race)<SUP>[1]</SUP> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule#_note-0) and so unless said person has an alternative non-white ancestry they can claim, such as Native American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States), Asian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_people), Arab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab), Australian aboriginal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Australian), they must be considered black (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro).
to read about that aweful JIM CROW law :((http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule)<O:p></O:p>

..
<O:p></O:p>

Dear Michelle,

(Message #108) What is the "quadroon law"?

Roca

[techteach]

Michelle:

I don't think that that person was denying their Indian heritage. They were commenting that the Blackfoot we talk about here on this forum is not part of the western Blackfoot (although there has been discussion on this forum about a rumored migration of eastern Siouan to the west as outlined in McGa's book).

The comment was also that that person lives in a area where it is wise not to share your Indian heritage to tribal members until you get to know them. I work with the Lakota and have only mentioned my mixed heritage to one of my Lakota friends after I got to know him. At that point, he knew I was not interested in tribal money nor was I trying to emulate his religion. He accepted me and said that he was glad I was working there to learn of my heritage. He did not call me a wannabe, as other tribal members will do.

I concur with your opinion on who is Indian.



Techteach

[Wachinika]

Welcome to Matthew, Matsane and Michelle :) .


Originally posted by Matsane
I have often wondered if Blackfoot might have been a slang term for Indian in general, or perhaps as has been mentioned, a slang term for people of mixed blood.

I can't see this would happen. My family appears to be a mix of only Indian and Euro-Americans. There’d be no bringing black into it for mixed blood ID. As a child growing up in the 50's, whites in Indiana referred to black people as Negro...never Black. Only after the 60's when the popular Black culture let it be known they wanted to be referred to as Black did that become the term applied to those of African-American descent. As I understand from posts by people living in the southeast, the term Blackfoot has been around the non-mixed Indian communities for along time. To just pick Blackfoot out of the hat seems far out to me. Many other tribes were better known in popular culture. It was related to me in a manner of all seriousness, not in anyway in the context of joking or cleverness. I could see it becomming used because of the peoples mixing with Blacks. But when so many people have self identified as Blackfoot, I wouldn't call it slang. I think of it as older with a meaning lost with the language and parts of the culture.

[Michelle Small]

Thank you for clearing that up:) but I would like to hear from him if you do not mind. He did not clearly state that but it was implied by myself that based on the former comment he was stating on the ancestry of the Suioan people within that region may be questionable based on black ancestry"Blackfeet" and of course "the migration"of our people . I will read more about this within that book you had mention. I am not familar with Lakota people and I am sorry if I offended anyone. BECAUSE OF THE MURDER OF MY GRANDAD WHO WAS INDIAN and I did not know my mother was 75% Indian.(She was not Lakota it was Muharian.) All she was accustomed to do is adhere to society's standard of mixed black people placing her in one catorgory of Black. I was stating that society has placed these rubics of measurement deciding who is totally INDIAN OR NOT I was just stating that..... But thank you for your insightness and knowledge of the LAKOTA people I will KEEP YOUR Comments in mind.:p
MICHELLE

Michelle:

I don't think that that person was denying their Indian heritage. They were commenting that the Blackfoot we talk about here on this forum is not part of the western Blackfoot (although there has been discussion on this forum about a rumored migration of eastern Siouan to the west as outlined in McGa's book).

The comment was also that that person lives in a area where it is wise not to share your Indian heritage to tribal members until you get to know them. I work with the Lakota and have only mentioned my mixed heritage to one of my Lakota friends after I got to know him. At that point, he knew I was not interested in tribal money nor was I trying to emulate his religion. He accepted me and said that he was glad I was working there to learn of my heritage. He did not call me a wannabe, as other tribal members will do.

I concur with your opinion on who is Indian.



Techteach

[Wachinika]

Hey techteach,

Can you give us a little more information on McGa's book? I can't get it to come up on Search here and Google gives me Multi-Color Graphic Adapter & Manitoba Conola Growers Association.

[techteach]

Sorry, I spelled his name wrong. It is Ed McGaa. The book is "Crazy Horse and Chief Red Cloud."

If I am not mistaken, the problem with connecting the Eastern Blackfoot with the Western Blackfoot is that the Western Blackfeet speak an Algonquin language while the Eastern Blackfoot, if indeed they were Saponi, spoke a Siouan language (and I am not set in this position - I was told by a linguist that the languages were structurally similar, so that when different tribes were together, as in Shamokin where there were Iroquois, Siouan, and Algonquin speakers in the same town, they could converse with the help of some demonstration, i.e. holding up the item you were describing).

McGaa spoke of the Lakota moving west. Of course, they speak a Siouan language.

Techteach

[Tonio]

Even full-blooded Natives that where dark enough where labled as Negro. Especially in Virginia! My family is from Orange County, and Louisa County VA,and even though my family was of high Native American blood that one drop of Negro blood was enough to have them be classified as "Negro".

[Linda]

Has everyone here seen the article linked from the main page, www.saponitown.com/Blackfoot.htm ? That sums up a lot of the research we've done over the years concerning what I believe are the origins of the eastern Blackfoot ID.

[Linda]

Matsane, all of the points of origin of your family, Virginia, North Carolina, Kentucky, and then through the midwest could possibly be the sources of the Blackfoot ID in your family.

[Michelle Small]

Thank you Linda I will read that article of research link . I may have missed that I am always willing to learn. :p Michelle Small
quote=Linda]Has everyone here seen the article linked from the main page, www.saponitown.com/Blackfoot.htm (http://www.saponitown.com/Blackfoot.htm) ? That sums up a lot of the research we've done over the years concerning what I believe are the origins of the eastern Blackfoot ID.[/quote]

[Michelle Small]

Very interesting research article.So the pronunceation of the word sissponi cause a misinterpretation and misunderstanding of the actual meaning? I can understand that my grgrandad was a farmer and his dad Solomon Caudle was as well and I was told he had a funny dialect which is common for that area.Thank you I now have a little more clarity about this subject. Thanks!

[Matsane]

Welcome to Matthew, Matsane and Michelle :) .


I can't see this would happen. My family appears to be a mix of only Indian and Euro-Americans. There’d be no bringing black into it for mixed blood ID. As a child growing up in the 50's, whites in Indiana referred to black people as Negro...never Black. Only after the 60's when the popular Black culture let it be known they wanted to be referred to as Black did that become the term applied to those of African-American descent.


I had forgotten about the designation of Black not being used until the 1960's. Thanks for the reminder. Strange as it may seem, the little town I grew up in only had one or two "Black" families in it so the issue of that particular racial designation wasn't a topic of every day conversation. However, since we live in the southwest, where Spanish is almost as commonly spoken as English, the words Negro and Black are synonymous. I forget that is not true throughout the whole country.

[Matsane]

Matsane, all of the points of origin of your family, Virginia, North Carolina, Kentucky, and then through the midwest could possibly be the sources of the Blackfoot ID in your family.

Since the Blackfoot ID comes from my father's side of the family it would be from the Ellis/Wright families. According to census records, Thomas Ellis was born in South Carolina and Judah Wright was born in North Carolina. Somehow they married and ended up in Indiana. They then moved to Brown Co., Illinois where they apparently died. Even though my dad always told me it was a Dutcher who took up with a Blackfoot woman, I'm thinking it was more likely an Ellis.

[Michelle Small]

I believe wright were distant cousins.Where were they from? what part of NC? These "wright" were from Warren county.


Since the Blackfoot ID comes from my father's side of the family it would be from the Ellis/Wright families. According to census records, Thomas Ellis was born in South Carolina and Judah Wright was born in North Carolina. Somehow they married and ended up in Indiana. They then moved to Brown Co., Illinois where they apparently died. Even though my dad always told me it was a Dutcher who took up with a Blackfoot woman, I'm thinking it was more likely an Ellis.

[Matsane]

Sorry I didn't reply sooner. :o I have no idea what part of North Carolina they were from. I just know North Carolina from census records.

[Jack Adkins]

My grandmother was a Mitchum and was supposedly related to Robert Mitchum the actor. Well, I was looking at some of Robert Mitchum's genealogy and interestingly enough, his brother wrote a book in which he was quoting a letter from one of his Aunts and described her as "...Also, very clearly I remember our Aunt Alice Pat, pure Blackfoot lady."

My grandmothers family were from Rockinham Co. NC.

[Linda]

Oh wow! I just saw one of Robert Mitchum's best films. I can't remember the name. It's the one where he has love/hate tatooed on his knuckles. He's a homicidal psychopath who's just killed Shirley something and is after her children and Lillian Gish defeats him. One of the best films of that decade. The imagery is unbelievable.

I suppose that might be where he got those rugged good looks . . .

How do you relate to the Mitchums. I don't suppose you know how Aunt Alice Pat fits in.

[Linda]

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000053/bio


His mother was Norwegian and his father was Scots-Irish on his father's side and Native American Blackfoot on his mother's side.

See, now you've got" documentation" that there's Blackfoot in the family. Oh, you mean, Hollywood biographies don't qualify as original source material?

Would anybody know how to track down this man's genealogy?

[Steve-o]

Known...

Ambrose Mitchum (1804 - 1887) & Elizabeth ?

John Sessions Mitchum (1842 - 1900) & Laura Thompson (1847 - ?)

James Thomas Mitchum (1886 - 1919, Railroad Worker) & Ann Harriet Gunderson (1894 - 1990)

Robert Charles Duran/Durman Mitchum, b. 1917, Bridgeport Connecticut

Unknown

Parents of Ambrose Mitchum, speculated to be Ambrose Meacham & Lucy Rising, but no proof.

[Jack Adkins]

How do you relate to the Mitchums. I don't suppose you know how Aunt Alice Pat fits in.

My GreatGreatgrandfather was Nicholas Mitchum from Reidsville NC. My Greatgrandmother was Sallie Mitchum. My Grandmother was Ila Beasley and she always said we were related to Robert Mitchum. How? I'm not sure yet. My GGgrandmother Beasley was known to the family as a fiesty Indian woman who shot a man trying to steal her chickens. He died from the wound later on. Reidsville NC in Caswell Co. seems to be where I need to start that genealogical research.

[Linda]

That should be a very fruitful search. If you can establish the Robert Mitchum link, then you've got a very public statement concerning the Blackfoot ID.

[fyost]

FYI: Reidsville NC is in Rockingham County.

[Jack Adkins]

Yep, you're right about that. I was thinking halfway about Milton NC too. I remember knowing my Grandma came from Rockingham and I made the mistake originally thinking it was Rockingham Co. VA. My bad.

[Rhoadie]

I hear the same thing in my family on my mother's side. However, they are from Indian Woods and Piney Woods.

[Linda]

Hi, Rhoadie. Welcome to the site. I take it you mean there's a story of being Blackfoot in that line? That's interesting. Did you see my article at www.saponitown.com/Blackfoot.htm? You're familiar with our theory that the Blackfoot ID speaks for Eastern Siouan/Saponi/Tutelo descent? The Saponi were in the vicinity of what's now Bertie county. They were noted as being there for around ten years in the early 1700's. There is a Saponi creek near there named for them.

I've heard of some other people I suspect are connected to Saponi remnants having ties to that area.

[Rhoadie]

Yes, I have heard that term Blackfoot in my family. I also hear people in my region say the same thing. I have read your article which was informative. I was surprised to have 5 of those Native American surnames with 2 of them being Blackfoot in my family line (Jones, Williamson, White, Lee, and Turner).

[Linda]

Very interesting. Thanks for telling me. Which ones were Blackfoot identified?

[Rhoadie]

The Blackfoot names in my family are Jones and White, which you have listed. However, in my family the individual that was labeled blackfoot actually was a Miller. However, I understand that Blackfoot was also a code word in the African American community meaning you were a Black Indian (regardless of the tribe). So I'm not sure if my family were talking about Blackfoot the code, or Blackfoot the tribe since some of my family says Blackfoot when I ask about her tribe, and other's (like my Grandmother) just says she was an Indian woman. But my grandmother was young when the Blackfoot woman died so maybe that was all she remembered.

I was told that she was born with an Native American name but later went by Emma. I don't know if she had to go to a boarding school and change her name but I think she was born in the late 1800s if I could somehow find a birth record on her, than I would know exactly what her Native American name was. The census always have her listed as Emma, with her race being sometimes Mulatto and sometimes Black according to the year. However, my grandmother told me that she was neither Mulatto or Black but Native American. The only document that I saw that had a name listed other than "Emma" was her son's marriage certificate that had his mother's name listed as "Errrrrrra" spelled just like that. He probably didn't know how to spell it, and whoever did the document probably just wrote how it sounded.

I know that I am African American, and my mother is African American, however I can't help but notice that alot of her side of the family looks like they are Native Americans. And I understand that some tribes such as Tuscarora (which I think are in my family too) actually were enslaved during slavery. So maybe we just assumed that just because someone was a slave that they were of African origin. Actually when I researched my mother's side of the family family I only found 3 African American line of ancestors, everyone else was listed as being "mulatto" or white.

Everyone on my mother side of the family has a Native look to them.

Now this is a picture of a Native American man that I saw in a book (on the left) . I put a picture of my grandmother on the right.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc97/Rhoadie_01/Nativeamericanman.jpg http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc97/Rhoadie_01/Disneyworld024.jpg

These two look like they can be brother and sister

This is a picture of my mother when she was younger:
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc97/Rhoadie_01/Disneyworld002-1-1.jpg

This is my grandmother (her mother)

[Linda]

I've never seen anything to support the idea that the Blackfoot ID applied to eastern Black families indicates a code. Those families that I've seen fit within the same pattern as the 'white' families. If the Blackfoot code theory were correct, then we'd see it in a random assortment of surnames and locations, but the surnames and locations have always fit the same patterns as everyone else's.

I think it's just a veiled kind of racism that wants to diminish the claims to Native American heritage to any family that also has an African American heritage -- a variation on the 'one drop rule.'

[Rhoadie]

Yes, I agree. That code thing does sounds like a variation of the one drop rule. Oftentimes Black people didn't fully embrace all of their ancestry because of the one drop rule. And since we were so conditioned by society we often felt condemned for even acknowledging we were part Native, or mixed with something else because some people would think that you were not proud of your African Heritage if you claim anything else. Because you did have Blacks who felt so inferior because of American society that they would lay claim to a Native ancestor even if they did not have one, because they felt it made them "less Black" and thought that would cause them to look better in the eyes of white people as well as other blacks.


I've never seen anything to support the idea that the Blackfoot ID applied to eastern Black families indicates a code. Those families that I've seen fit within the same pattern as the 'white' families. If the Blackfoot code theory were correct, then we'd see it in a random assortment of surnames and locations, but the surnames and locations have always fit the same patterns as everyone else's.

I think it's just a veiled kind of racism that wants to diminish the claims to Native American heritage to any family that also has an African American heritage -- a variation on the 'one drop rule.'

[Eleigh40]

Hi Rhoadie,

I have to agree with you on the one drop rule. Our family has often left out researching anything other than our African American lineage although we are clearly mixed. However, my grandmother did pass on to our generation that we were Blackfoot Indian. I could not figure out how until I stumbled upon this site. My family originated from many of the areas listed on this site and I keep finding interesting postings and surnames from the past that are helping me to find more information.

I noticed that your Maternal line has the surnames of Ward and Miller out of Bertie Co, NC. We have Wards & Millers on my maternal GF's line. We believe that the Miller's came from Bertie and our Ward's were from Martin Co., NC. I have been trying to find out more information on this side of the family but I keep running into road blocks.

David Nickens married Rebecca Miller 14 Jul 1830 in Halifax Co., NC. They had four children. One of them was William Baker Nickens and he married Julia Ann Ward (from Martin Co, NC). Rebecca led a total of 61 people out of Halifax Co., NC to Ohio around 1861. The story states that they first stopped in Baltimore, MA before going to Ohio but I have no evidence of that or any explanation as to why they would go there.

I was told that Julia was indian, however I can not find anything on her. It is like she just appeared out of no where. Just curious if your family could be related. I have plenty of pictures and info from our annual family reunions which are held in Ohio & Indiana (Nickens, Ward & Odom).

[Rhoadie]

Hello Eleigh40. I know that some of the Miller's were Tuscarora Indian, because I saw that last name on a Reservation Deed. But I need to do more research on it.

[Eleigh40]

Rhoadie,

I was told the same thing about the Millers. I have not been able to find any information on Rebecca Miller prior to her marriage to David Nickens.

[Three Crows]

Can some one explain to me the meaning of "one drop rule". I have a sneaking suspicion we may have dropped one or two upon moving up north.

[Linda]

The 'one drop rule' refers to the old racial convention that having one drop of African blood makes one black (and therefore subject to hereditary slavery and the de facto economic institutions that followed).

[DCollins]

Virginia’s Racial Integrity Act of 1924 (one drop law) wasn't repealed until 1967 , with the Loving v Virginia case,

Don Dollins

http://www.qrd.org/qrd/usa/legal/loving-v-virginia-06.12.67

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_Integrity_Act_of_1924

[Eleigh40]

My family was originally listed as mulatto on various census reports in the 1800's and they did settle within the African American community. I assumed it was because of the "one drop rule." My grandfather did not want us researching our past and he never claimed to be anything other than African American although he did not look it. My grandmother was the one who told us that we were part indian (Blackfoot on her side of the family). As for the Nickens family we know that they lived in VA before settling first in Hertford Co., NC and then moving on to various counties in NC and other states. Some say that they are Caucasian, others say they are Indian and others like my family say they are African American.

255
This is a photo of my gggrandfather William Baker Nickens (the son of David Nickens & Rebecca Miller) and his surviving children in Clark County, Ohio 1903. This was taken at the funeral of my gggrandmother Julia Ann (Ward) Nickens.

[Three Crows]

Thanks Linda

[Three Crows]

Eleigh
Thanks for the response, my situations was just the opposite. My Mother moved up north and married into an Anglo family. Her Blackfoot heritage was never mentioned.
She told me of it when I was a little boy, and she knew she only had a few years to live. There are still close family members that I would not want to bring this up with, because they are unaware of it and would probably have a hard time accepting being triracial. They think we are all white. (Hee Hee)

Best Threecrows

[amajid]

:) :) Knowing the Blackfoot Indians is history and understanding we do have. Many saying were said about, but we do believe they were a tribe or community of them. The Indians as a whole life and history have abolish or destroy in some way. The Europeans of America (New World) as it was cleed was not discover or the indians.

US. or Europen wrote what they the Native Indians to be. Blackfoot Indian to me are an intellegenc factor of indian society. Blackfoot indian has many terms for their name. One is that their foot wear was dyd black. They were separated from other indian because the chose too.

No matter what tribe of indians they migrate from other indian tribes or names. I am Blackfoot Indian/African Slave side. I feel my ties are strong because of the wrong doing whick were done to them. As part indian, and African Slave.

Native indians or Blackfoot Indians are the founder of the United States. The US. is the country and land. It was taken from they by all race of people.

A black man is president and never was on this soil. The leader of the Indian land. A Indian should be ruling this country, because the indian taught other ho survive in their country.

I am proud to part Blackfoot/Indian.

ABdul Majid



There has ben an alarming amount of informtion streaming through the southeast in reference to "Blackfoot" indians in the region.
Most people are very strong about there family's heritage coming from this group based on oral history. However, I believe with the utmost assurance that except for some remote locations (Hampton, VA.,Carlisle, PA,etc) there were no Blackfoot indians in the region.
The Blackfoot indians who were here were relatively late and related to the indian school movement of the late 19th and early 20th century. So where are all these Blackfoot indians coming from? The answer is very simple. Are these individuals indian? Absoloutely. Most Americans could not name you dozen tribal names - they just aren't that informed. However some gropus have a widespread popularity - Cherokee, Navajo, Sioux (Lakota), Blackfeet, Seminole.
These groups for what ever reason, stick in history and peoples minds. Some where along the line people of mixed ancestory in the south new they were indian - but through generation had forgotten tribal names. Hence the lumbee (croatan, cherokee of Robeson Co.etc), the Monacan (buffalo ridge cherokee), the Indians of persons Co.(cherokee of Person co.)Haliwa Saponi (HALIfax and WArreen co.)etc.
The names of dominickers, brass ankles, redbones, mulungeon exist based on these triracial groups. Interesting enough, people ask their elders who are we? and they give the answer of Cherokee, Blackfeet, etc. because of oral tradition as recognizable indianess.
I cannot tell you how many Blackfeet i have met from Florida to New York. the list would be larger than some local tribal roles. What do they have in common? not very much, except they come from all over the east, they are indian with black and white mixed - looking for who they are.
Dont spend time researching the Blackfeet of the East. They are absent from the historical, anthropological, archeological, and cultural record in the Southeast. Chasing ghost does not help. lets find the real tribal groups from real records and real oral traditions of settlement patterns. look for the families and the locations of peoples who never left!

[Tonio]

Hmmm.... the guy has a point. Looking at historical records and keeping note of the locations of tribes during certin points of time is "key" I guess. I do know that there were MANY scattered tribes and individual clans in the Piedmont prior to contact. The VA/SC/NC or even county historical societies can give refrences to tribes and clans that once lived in these areas. Many old maps are availible, but some are in doubt because of changing boarders ie SC/NC and county lines in certin years. It's unique that only Eastern Siouan decendants claim the "Blackfeet" thing in the east. How many Algonquians or Iriqouis do you see claiming "Blackfeet"? I know for a fact that many in my family claim the whole "Blackfeet" thing and it maybe true, but because of slavery it'll be almost impossible to prove on paper. Think a little about this, who cared about keeping records on slaves Indian or Negro? After all, there're not supposed to be any Indians in VA right? All I pull out of the federal censuses are a bunch of "Mulatto's". However looking at historical records in the counties in which they live it was home to the Monacan, and Saponi. On a historical John Smith record it was said that the Saponi were like a sub-division of the Monacan early on. Not to mention my family that claims "Blackfeet" also lived in Albemarle, VA (Not to mention Louisa, and Orange counties, VA) not to far from the mound the Monacan or Saponi used to burry thier ancestors. The likeliness of me being a decendant of these people are pretty good. However because of the whole not being able to prove it on paper thing, there are some that will debate it.

[Shadow]

Hi,
Just checking to see if this forum/site is still active. looks like all the activity stopped over a year ago. 3 years on this forum.

thanks

Shadow

[Linda]

The forum as a whole is alive and well. This section is not the only place that people with the Blackfoot ID post, and not necessarily the only place that discussions concerning the Blackfoot ID happen.

We're still here!

[miz313]

Im kind of late to this forum topic but are did any blackfoot indians exist or people who thought they were blackfoot but could've been of another tribe in ooltewah,tennessee?

[LindyLuu]

Wow...

How interesting! I have pondered exactly what is happening here in my own family research. My dad often told me that his people told him they were Blackfeet/foot Indians. I've not found a lick of info, just brick walls. I had someone tell me that there were Blackfoot Indians in the Carolinas. I was told that there were Indians in the Annapolis, Maryland, even in my family -- oral history and some small evidence of Native American Indians (e.g., features, clothing styles, a pot, oral history). From a spiritual perspective when praying often times there is a Native American Indian presence which comes through. I can only hold onto what I knwo in the spiritual realm -- there is a knowing and a longing to know who I am and where my people come from.

No doubt that yes mixed, but mixed with what?

Here's my theory for my area...

Those ancestors who are/were Native American Indians during the yera of enrollment -- may not have enrolled in the governement's plans (e.g. Dawes Roll) therefore we have no evidence of their existance. I have yet to find one ancestors' name enrolled anywhere. I have a name of "Jenny MATTHEWS" (last name not for certain) but jenny and the DENNIS/MATTHEWS we are told are Native American Indians.

The flip side, my friend who may actually be relative and a lead -- her HOLLAND-MOSS aunt is Choctaw and enrolled. Her aunt has shut down and not very helpful with giving info. But yet my girlfriend/cousin tells me all the time i look like her people. The HOLLANDS clan is a mysterious clan, and I understand there are I think four different groups -- oy-veh!

When I pray and seek I am given Cherokee and this was before I even met my cousin who gave me the pieces mentioned above. I know Spirit wouldn't and hasn't led me wrong thus far. It is a deep knowing within my spirit. I would love to find the truth.

PS: My friend whom I spoke of in my threads, well I found his father and indeed his dad was enrolled in the Dawes. That was the first time I had found anyone's actually ancestor enrolled. How exciting an experience that was for both of us.

[LindyLuu]

No disrespect intended, but my senitments exactly! I am chuckling along with you, weeeee, I've had some hair raising experiences in looking for truth about my family history and so I just let it happen. I get info prior to the physical presenting its self -- that angel dust...things are right under our physical noses. When I keep bumping into a certain piece of physical evidence, I just tuck it away until the time presents its self.

I know I joined this web site in 2005, but there is something pressing. guiding, leading me to be active now. Other pieces are now into play here that wasn't then, and I must be obedient to how the Spirit leads me and so I'm letting it flow...

Slowly I am disgesting this all...

Thank you


Bottom line, this is getting into the realm of religion. Maybe you all, (I mean, ya huc) will think I'm nuts, but I really think a big reason we're finding out so much now is because our Ancestors want us to. I think that's why I keep stumbling onto all this evidence. "Somebody's" throwing it into my path.

I know now when some uncanny coincidence in this regard comes along my role is to suspend all judgment and just let it take me where it will. I met somebody a few months ago that I had every reason to dislike and distrust, but the uncanny coincidence thing was going on, the angel dust was in the air, and I just let it go where it wanted to go and all my initial judgments based on evidence turned out to be completely false.

[LindyLuu]

Many familiar names applied: Revels...

Sorry about multiple postings...I am reading through this interesting post and writing before fibro fog sets in and train of thought is lost...

REVEL is a name in the MOSS family here in Annapolis, MD and in fact a prominent name I believe of one of the five MOSS brothers, so important that they named a street after him, the house where my Jospehine worked (and Mom was at 5 mths) for Judge Robert MOSS (her real dad) sits right at REVEL and Shipwright in downtown Annapolis. I am posting hopefully to help establish a base line for research and where to begin to understand the how and where of oral Blackfoot history origin.

Richard MOSSE was one killed during the 1st Indian Massacre in Jamestown, VA. The MOSSE/MOSS migrated up the Severn River...the documentation in the archive of this family is one of the most extensive thorough files in Maryland, so much so you could follow their wealth and activities. Unfortunately when ones goes to get this info -- it's not there, hmmm. So as a place to begin, this info may lend to some closed doors on origin for the oral Blackfoot history which hasn't been documented.

[LindyLuu]

Thank you CoheeLady

If we cherish the gifts given and listen to how we are directed in Spirit, by the Spirit -- then we can never stray from the direction given -- in spirit! Ministry has taught me to walk in the Spirit and not the physical...

I don't consider myseft a great history expert in terms of rattling off specific facts. It takes me a tad bit of time to digest all facts. However I cherish the gifts given, one of which is the gift to discern, visions, sometimes deep visions and interpretation. I would be lost if I didn't listen to how my ancestors are guiding me. I have to trust them! I use to think something was wrong with me when I find myself cooking in the kitchen and humming (spirituals most times) until my Mom told me her mother was a great cook and often hummed. Now where did that come from...I look at my grandmother's picture and ask her to speak to me, and one day she did. With no real facts in hands Cherokee fell into my spirit. I like Linda' analogy of "angel dust" on this journey -- we are led if we listen. My point, get past the isms/schism of divisions (which what the evil ones want us to focus on) and work on one accord to uncover the truth which has been buried long enough. You can't dispute DNA nor should we discount other's history...

Respectfully

Linda


... After the boundary change in the 1800's Va. was no longer Cherokee territory. So all those that stayed behind were no longer officially Cherokee. If someone has Cherokee ancestry at birth, you can't take it away, simple as that...
Sincerely,
Coheelady

[baldsasquatch]

Hello, first post here, Google brought me here, and I apologize if this posting is in the wrong forum. I remember from my childhood sitting in my grandmother's kitchen, and her telling us that there was something about us that we didn't know yet. She showed us a picture of a Native American man, in a head-dress, and told us that he was a Blackfoot Indian, and that we were descendants of his. I have nothing else to go on, aside from a picture in my head, and the statement from my grandmother. I now have 5 children, and it has become important to me to find out "who I am" and "what heritage I pass on to my children." As I said, Google brought me here, and I would love it if anyone could provide any assistance / guidance in getting me to a determination of what I actually am.

[Three Crows]

Hello baldsasquatch.When I found this forum and joined it a couple of years ago, I was in almost the same position as you. All I knew was something that my Mother had told me when I was little boy. Today, through the wisdom and guidance of the inhabitants of Saponitown, I have a very good understanding of where I came from and 'who I am'. I'm sure sure you will find the answers you need here.

A common thread among the citizens here is to accept what you already know is true, but maybe never had proof. We know who we are, even after all of these years of being written off. You just know what you know.

[baldsasquatch]

Thank you Three Crows. I realized, I should probably expand on my story just a bit. My wife is 1/4 Cherokee, so the children know their Native roots there, that sort of got me more into figuring out my roots. Last year, I was having a casual conversation with a female co-worker, and after telling her this story, she said that she too is Blackfoot, and the story her mother told her was identical to mine. Weird thing too, Blackfoot, from what I read, the men are tall, and the women are short, I am 6'7", she is 5'4". Anyhow, the story my grandmother told me, which my co-worker's mother told her also is. "A Blackfoot chief sent scouting parties back East, to learn the white man's ways, and when they got here, they inter-married with the white-men(women) and that is how a tribe known to be Western ended up in the East." I have recently met yet another co-worker (a man) who said he too is Blackfoot, from the Canadian clans. This has me really wanting to get to the truths. Myself, although I look extremely non-native, try to follow the spiritual teachings that I find myself drawn to, even though I was raised Catholic.

[Three Crows]

baldsasquatch: There are a number of folks associated with this website that are knowledgeable from an academic standpoint as to the origin of the Eastern Blackfoot. There is a lot of archaeological, historic, genealogical, and anecdotal information available. Although I am 1/8 mixed blood, my children and I appear about as white as can be, but there are some other genetic traits that have come through., I'm sure you can find some direction here.

[Clydene]

I thought I'd escape any Blackfoot research since my ancestors were Cherokee and Choctaw and sent to OK in 1830's. Getting back further and further, I now find a Blackfoot connection for my Williams Family - Interesting stuff. Also interesting about the theory of how the Blackfoot people got back to the eastern shores. What we sometimes forget is that NA's probably got around more than the whites, especially before their arrival. I found a Choctaw Chief who lived up north part of the time so it did happen and probably more than we realize.

My DNA cousin has researched his Williams back to a Joseph P. Williams in/near Greenville Co., SC in about 1830. From pictures, Joseph is definitely NA and this was passed down to present day. And, as you say, Blackfoot men were very large men - he was very large. My Cherokee ggfa was also 6'7". I just discovered another Williams Family with pictures and their guy and ours could be the same man. They report that he was a Blackfoot from Robeson Co., NC and his wife was Cherokee. Robeson Co. did have Indian Lands then and now but they are not recognized even though they waved to the first ships with the white fellas on them when they arrived...tee hee.

My John Jefferson Williams married Nancy M. Bowles, a descendant of Pocahontas through the Bolling Family. When researching the Bollings, it was reported that Thomas Rolfe's mother, Pocahontas', was Cherokee. No, I'm not making this up. I found a document in the Richmond Historical Society that this is stated by one of the Bollings who knew Thomas personally so it likely has some merit. Just making the point that even in very early days many members of many Tribes were in many places. And, since there is not and never has been a tribe named Powhatan, this gives this statement more merit.

I do have a friend who is Blackfoot but her people were in Washington State. Their name became Morgan after their Blackfoot lady married a John Morgan..just FYI.

Thanks for any and all Blackfoot information

[Linda]

If you'll see my article at www.saponitown.com/Blackfoot.htm the Blackfoot we're researching here have no connection to the Algonquin Blackfoot in Montana. Ours are a Siouan group, part of the Siouan nations of the NC/VA Piedmont. The Western Sioux also have a Blackfoot group called the Sihisapa, Teton Sioux. Here we were called Sissipaha, or Saxapaha, preserved in the town name, Saxapaw, NC.

I've seen someone else propose that Pocohontas was Cherokee and get shot down summarily by some enrolled Pamunkey (touchy subject). It may be connected to the general confusion created by the widespread misuse of that tribal name in the 19th century.

[Three Crows]

Poor Pocohontas, she gets dragged into everything.. Surely the Queen of progenitors.

[shirley778446]

In my family history the stories and some records show on my mother's side that our ancestor John Austin sr of VA married a Saponi Indian her name we have yet to learn, the surname of my ancestor records show her childrian to be indian, the other names from the same area is Qualls/Quarles, McBee
Thank You
Shirley
On my father's side Gollihar plus many other spellings from PA is said to be Blackfoot
other naime are Huffman, Plott,Cowan all starting from the PA and VA areas, if anyone can help me with these lines I would appreciate it.

[Charlene66]

Please help ,Im lost. My maternal grandmother is suposed to be Blackfoot.She even looked native as well as some others in the family.As far as I know we have no connection to Montana nor do we have any traditions handed down.My maternal line is from Kanawaha county West Virginia area.I dont know where they were before that.I did see a genaology post that at least one person or line was some where around the Wiccomio River in Maryland. Knicely/Nicely/Knisley and Harper

[Linda]

Welcome Charlene! There's tons of info on this site and Blackfoot people in the Upper Souith, including WV. WV actually is pretty important in that story. Please see the article I have linked off the main page, http://saponitown.com/Blackfoot.htm. Just this thread has lots.

Use our search feature for your surnames. I seem to have heard the Nicely name before. Feel free to post a picture of your grandmother. I'd love to see it. You can see a pix of my gr-grandfather and grandmother in that article.