Blackfoot/Tuckahoe

[vance hawkins]

I have run into several Richey families who claim an ancestor who was "Blackfoot". I've run into others who claim their ancestors were "Tuckahoe" Indians.

I looked up a little on "Tuckahoe" and discovered it was a costal tubor eaten from NY to the Carolinas. In fact poor White indentured servants were sometimes called "Tuckahoes" as well as mixed blood folks and Indians.

My Richey's in Va first we know of them, & later were in Indiana for a couple of decades (1810s-1830s) and other Richey's we can't find any relationship to also migrated there. Later my Richey's went to Arkansas and a couple of them (g-g-grandpa and his brother) were enslaved there (1850 & 60 censuses). One of those other Richey's was married to a Sichy Collings Richey and I was wonderin' if that was the same as Collins. Just wonderin'.

have any of yall heard of "Tuckahoe Indians"? Son of Doublehead (famous Chickamauga chief)was named "Tuckahoe".

vance hawkins

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Vance,
Collins Collings, and Collens are usually the same. Almost all of my early Collins made their mark ( X ) Very few could read or write. It came down to whomever was filling out the paperwork for them and how they spelled it. My grandfather only had a three grade education. He could write but very poorly. Before him ggrandpa Richard, gggrand pa John nor Meredith Collins could read or write. In fact I have seen records with Meredith spelled many ways. I have my doubts that Meredith was actually his name as the early records spell his name as "Meridia" . On his enlistment record for Captain James McDaniel's Fincastle militia Company he was listed as Meridia Collens. My grandpa Ervin spelled his name Collings but some of his own brothers spelled their name Collins.

As for Tuckahoe...I have heard of it but figured it was a slang for another branch of a tribe.

Brenda

[This message has been edited by Brenda Collins Dillon (edited 11-15-2001).]

[Linda]

Hello Vance. My first thought was to wonder if Tuckahoe was a corruption of Tutelo. Are those Richey families you say you've run into, are they you're family? Sad twist them getting caught up in slavery so late in the game out in Arkansas. 1810 is awful early for settlers in Indiana isn't it? I thought the earliest settlers were in Ohio was 1810's. Maybe this will tell you something.

[edstp62]

Thank you all for being here, yes I have this oral tradition of "Blackfeet Cherokees" in my family but we are not related to the local people prior to 1980, any way this has been a real twist in my families oral history. To be short our family of Hardins and Cary's left TN and went to Wisconsin prior to 1860 and eventually moved into the midwest by 1880 or so, and on to Canada, would the hosts please respond to this posting, Thank you Tom.

[Linda]

By local people, do you mean your neighbors in Alberta? Do you know where in Wisconsin they were? I'm not familiar with those surnames, though we've heard of enough Blackfoot in TN.

[edstp62]

Osiyo, Re. my families history, as far as I was told as a youth we were Cherokee from the usa. After years of gen. research and looking up my mothers aunt and uncle who sticking to the materilineal aspects of family only the womens side of the family knew of our ancestory. My 1st cousin whom I've never met said my aunt told her that she was "blackfoot Cherokee" SOMETHING THAT IS FOUND IN THE OLDER MEMORIES of our family history. However the Blackfoot side is not as well known as the Cjherokee side and the sir names are all very old going back to the 1820s for sure. ,also the Ocaneechi peoples communities in Indiana and Ohio were once apart of our families history atleast the Indiana groups, once a cousin said to look near this groups location to start the search. Yes I mean the local Blackfoot Blood and Peigan indian people not more than 20 miles from here. Our families lived in Orange co. INdiana and moved on to the Racine wisconsin areas and had owned very well known sites in that area, from there some moved into Iowa and Nebraska and then on to Canada where they inter married with the locals here, remeber Tn was the jumping off point into the Midwest, Thanks again Tom..

[Linda]

Very interesting. My mother's family settled in Vernon County, WI about 1860 and she told us we were Blackfoot. There are a number of people in that county who applied in 1913 or so for the Cherokee rolls. They were denied, since they were not Cherokee, but families from Granville County, NC, the next county over from Person County, with similar surnames, I believe, to the Person County Indians (state recognized, Saponi). Anyway, the situation meant that a lot of genealogical data on them was preserved.

I just searched through emails I have from the genealogist/historian who told me about the documented Vernon County Indians. He said this, "I notice that one of the Basses--one of Elijah's sons--later moved up to
northern Minnesota and got involved with NA groups up there; this is just alluded to, not really explained, in the applications."

He also told me that Indiana was a mecca for NC mixed race or Indian people at one point. There's a book out by Steven Vincent, a professor at U.Wisconsin SOUTHERN SEED, NORTHERN SOIL on the settlements in Indiana. Apparently there's a big treasure trove of data on them too in the National Archives in Washington related to the Cherokee applications in 1910's. Roberts is the central name there.

Could your family have applied also? If they were being categorized as white at that point, they probably wouldn't have, but if classified as non-white, they may have done so.

Any of this sound helpful? Have you seen the article I wrote, linked on the first page of this site, about the "Other Blackfoot?" I'd be interested in your thoughts.

[vance hawkins]

To answer some questions --

in 1846 a treaty was signed tellin all "Cherokees" -- and Indians I presume -- to leave Arkansas and were given a one year term to do it. I have also been told by those who have looked at the Dawes records that some Arkansas Cherokee who came to Oklahoma said the reason their ancestors came here (I live in Oklahoma, as have my ancestors since the days of the Chickasaw Nation, where my grandparents were married) -- I was told a main reason many Arkansas Cherokee came to Oklahoma, as recorded in Dawes, was a "fear of the slaver".

Recently I discovered a Richey in Virginia who it was mentioned was "sold" as Indentured Servant -- but I really don't know what that means. I'm hopin maybe I can tie my ancestors to his somehow . . . both had the surname Richey & that's all I can know at present -- may not be related, tho, I don't know.

My Richey's mixed in Ar with Cherokees (Brown's, Guess, & Looney families) and later came to Indian Territory, Chickasaw Nation and we can prove it, but we are not on Dawes. But the Richey link to Saponey isn't very good, only I found others online who said their Richey (various spellings) ancestors said they were "Blackfoot". I'll write them (e-mail) and tell them about this website, soon.

My ancestors are in Indiana by 1810s. I guess that was pretty early, but My Wayland ancestors were in Arkansas about the same time. Wood's and Richey's both married into one another's families in Virginia and in Indiana and in Arkansas and in Kentucky.

vance hawkins

[edstp62]

Hello Linda, you are really sparking my interest in all of this, my grandmother was born in Hubbard co. Minnesto in 1909! I don't know if any of our family filed for enrollment in Oklahoma but on my grandmothers sid her grandmother and uncle went to Kansas to live on a reserve there and then went on to Shawnee ok. but they left and moved to Wyoming and had a large tract of land there. This women sir name of Williams was born in Indiana aswell but I haven't done any work on her side of the family.The branch of my family that went to WI. was id.ed as black 1850-60, mullato 1870-80 and white by 1900, rather cute! On the Indiana census blacks and mulattoes were not supposed to be enumerated but our family was? I wonder how many families were mixed but economically could hold thier own against oppression? our family often had boarders by the name of Diggs and Colley ,also in Indiana the name of Rberts and Hardin often showed up in simalar situations. I believe that many of the early Hardin people were of mixed race white on the fathers side and aboriginal on thier mothers side, the Hardin family assc. from Crewe Va. might be of some help on this. best to all Tom.

[Linda]

There's a book online that has a list of the people who applied for the Cherokee rolls and were denied. I'll have to look for info on that link. Does anybody know? Can't remember where I heard that at the moment.

Your family, edstp, sounds so much like mine. They were poor in Wisconsin, but they held their own, took in borders, too. I'd be interested in how much native blood both you and Vance estimate you have. It sounds like you have more than most Southeatern NDN descended people who made it out that far.

[edstp62]

Hello Linda, well I'm not to sure about he blood quantum thing, if you look into history ie John Ross, Louis Riel etc they had very little "indian blood" but had loyalties to thier home people and commiunitites. I was told that my great grandmother was a full blodd Cherokee,she was very much non-white, and there was other tribes and peoples there I'm sure. She married into a family of people of simalar origins so our families have both dark skinned and light skinned people , I fall somewhere between,my dental records don't support what I'm supposed to look like.In our family for generations the house has always belonged to the women not the man and when there is a split the men leave. Also on rather odd occurence that may hint to the Tutelo spirit adoption ceremony,happened after a death in the family, not enough time here to get into it but will one day, alos there are family names that have folk etymologies to the Overhill and Tugalo Cherokees. The Blackfoot issue I'm sure is from the Carolinaas not Tn. etc. I did read your article on the Blackfoot, I think that it is the only logical answer and it confermed one issue in my research that I don't have to check into, but all of the tribal names from the Carolina areas need to be translated into English since many will have a bearing on other families and tribes. I would like to hear more about your families history and where they lived it sounds like there was a large community of our people that moved into WI. and areas so much for now , looking forward to hearing from you again Tom.

[Linda]

I found this paragraph in Ron Haithcock's compilation, not sure who wrote it, but it coincides with what I was alluding to above about the Roberts settlement in Hamilton County, Indiana


In 1832 another colony of black people settled in Hamilton County, Indiana. Known as the Roberts Settlement, it was made up of Cherokee and blacks forced to leave Northampton County, North Carolina, during the Indian Removal. In Indiana, the group built log houses, a church and school. By the time of the Civil War this community had produced its share of doctors, teachers and soldiers. Its records are preserved in a manscript collection at the Library of Congress. Along the Atlantic coast, Native Americans were transformed into a biracial people.

Yoohoo, Crystal, had you seen this? More of your Northampton County cousins. "Cherokees" indeed. Yeah, right. (Northampton County, NC is directly below Brunswick Co, VA, where Fort Christanna was. Way to far east to expect any Cherokee.) We should plan a field trip to DC. You've got people all over the place to look up in the archives. I'd like to poke around the Vernon County records.

[Linda]

Okay, on another page in Haithcock's compilation, in Ross County, Ohio, 1840 Census, he lists a Philip Ritchy. I had kin there in Union Township. I'm not sure what it means to be on this list. I imagine he's gleaning the names of fpc or black people???

[edstp62]

Hello, those records that you mention sound very interesting, probably more informative that any other records that I can think of, I have some civil war records that were very valuable in regards to where my family moved to. One Cousin said that in Omaha and Council Bluff, there was a large commnity in those towns that were made up of simalar people with what you might call a "community focus".I have heard that there is some "Blackfoot" people in Ontario, they may be related to the Saponi and Tutelo that moved there or they could be from the boarding school era, and are people from this area of southern Alberta. Has anyone heard from these folks,yet? Can anyone tell me if there is any artists or tradtional craft people left from the Sisspaha peoples? Also one issue to look at is how food and the like is prepared,often these methods of doing things are not explained as to thier origins just " this is how we do it" is all I was told when it came to smoking fish,meat, and trapping was the same. When I showed my late Mom the pictures that John lawson or White drew she said " that's how we do it". This picture was showing people sitting beside a small frame with portions of animals on it! Any way these are the "things" that need to be looked for that would provide cultural links to the past, has anyone started such a study? Lastly! Does anyone out there know of any people descended from the Orange Co.IN.community that may have photos of the members from there? Take care Tom.

[Linda]

Orange County, NC is one of the counties mentioned in conjunction with the Occaneechi Band of the Saponi. I believe you'll find photos on their site, if they're still up. They're good friends of those of us in the NC/VA area. Our family sings with Eastern Bull Drum, which often is host Drum at Pow Wows that John Blackfeather emcees. He's former chairperson, still a mover and shaker with the OBSN.
http://www.occaneechi-saponi.org/home.shtml

There are some of us making an effort to re-kindle the old arts and skills. I would love to see you document here whatever details you can think of that may be relevant. If you have any photos you'd like to publish here, send them to me, and I'll put them up for you.

I think any Blackfoot identification in Canada may refer to the "regular" Blackfoot, though it could be some of the Saponi who "disappeared" from history after reaching Niagara.

I need to refresh my memory on those details. I've seen a list of people thought to be NC Indians up in New York, one name was Eno, which I see in Vernon County, WI. It's an unusual name, and known to be used as a surname by Saponi people. The Eno would be the closest band to the Sissipaha village, so logically you'd expect them to be calling themselves Blackfoot if the theory holds.

Does anybody have an Ancestry.com membership who can search on the Eno surname?

[edstp62]

Hello, has anyone checked out the Orange co. IN. site thay have some info on the archaeology that may be of interest to us, tho' I haven't looked at it or tracked down any info from there yet. I'm very curious about our title "Blackfoot Cherokees" I wonder if the Cherokee part wasn't added after our people moved into the Cherokee country, keep in mind that they would have had to request permission to do so, and like the Natchez, some Yuchi and others formed distinct villages or atleast a population base and would have accepted the definition of the latter even if they were not part Cherokee, after they had been there for some time (like my family) they would have found marriage partners and then the term "Blackfoot Cherokee" would have been logical atleast for my family. I have a reasonable background in Native studies and after looking at some of the old material from the "eastern sioux" I think that they (the former) kept styles of work common to the Nc. people atleast during the cotact period on the northern plains. I have seen old moccasins that are really not very sioux looking but were collected very early for that area, but they would have had counter-parts in the south east, these were center seam moccasins. Also very early quill work from the same area, many so called "x-perts" have problems with quill work being in the southeast but rest assured it was there and did not always exist on the basis of the porcupine being there. In this decorative tradition I have found examples using grass, silk, wool, fern stems, feathers and the older tradition of bird quillwork sewn like porcupine quills, during the 1970s in the far north it was common to use plastic (bizarre)! There is a great deal out there that can help rebuild the old tradions but it has to have a good basis for the arguement to do so,any one reading this should check out the writings on David Bushnell from the early 1900s. There is a beaded bag in England from the early 1600s that has shown up on the old shell gorgets etc. from the south, many of these pieces have items that do look astho' they could be remade , also there is a skirt that was found in a rock shelter that has a bag with it , using modern materials this weaving method would make very beautiful shawls if some time was taken to do so lastly re this for now, National Geographic published photos of a beaded vail that was unearthed and then one was made like the old, very nice! the issue here is that you can use patterns etc for new items and when the time comes for ceremonies these could be used in sacred parts of life. I hope that this posting helps spark some what of an interest here, if anyone needs some help on anything please send an email to edstp62@hotmail.com and I'll do my best to answer any question. The arts are something I know a little about including cane basket making,etc. Has any one located the site where that book on filing for membership with the Cherokees is that you had refered to?. Well this is it from the "Northern Door", best to all, Tom.

[Linda]

There's a section somewhere on this site of rejected applications. That's what we're looking for
http://www.tngenweb.org/cherokee_by_blood/

I need to re-read your post. There were some points I got confused on, but I'm too tired to figure out what questions to ask, but I am very interested in retracing materical culture and recreating what we can.

I did enough research to be confident that our ladies wove the little skirts they wore, they weren't wearing leather all summer in the south (I don't care what documentation exists or doesn't exist, I KNOW I am not related to any idiots who would dress like that in this heat.) I have a fair idea how they did their weaving. I've also poked around a little with the idea of attempting to do some of the pottery. I've gotten a bit too busy with real world concerns, like making a living, so I may have to cut corners on all that, but I want to do what I can.

I want to glean any motifs and designs from archeological finds and work them into our regalia. I found a rattlesnake pattern on gorgets in Cheraw children's burials (interestingly cartoonish design). I used that pattern to bead a patch for my little boy's grass dance outfit. I also used the motif from a pipe found at an Occaneechi site to bead a roach I made for a little Occaneechi boy.

[edstp62]

Hey linda, well you're probably right not many people would wear leather during the summer, up here some folks even went nude during the heat. Anyway I'd like to see some of the work that you have done ,do you think that the Cheraw were from the eastern Sioux confederacy? I looked at the site for Ocaneechi Town and I'm sure that it was only a small village and did not represent the total population.I'd like to see some of the pottery from your area or the area of the Sisspaha,and how is that word properly pronounced? Have you seen any of the books from Germany on the old collections over there? I have seen xeroxs of one by Christian Feest on material culture with very old historic materail including a pipe and some other stuff,have you seen this? If you did some research into material culture there can you tell me if you ran into any fragments etc. of baskets or weavings? In short that N>Geo. article was from a site called Soroa Town or some such spelling , anyway that word refers to a long legged bird that runs along the shores of waterways and marshes,the name is refers to its straw like legs. I don't know the English word for the bird but I think maybe a Rail or Avocet? Best to all Tom.

[Linda]

The Cheraw are in with the Catawba more, but Catawba are Eastern Siouan too. What I've heard is that there are two groups of Siouan that settled out here. The Catawba group got here first, the Saponi/Tutelo later. But the Cheraw were living very close to the Eno/Shakori/Occaneechi in Orange and Alamance counties, so I felt like it was close enough for a reasonable borrowing.

Sara, as in Sara town, means the same thing as the word "Cheraw"

I'll get some pictures put up of what I've done, and what I'd like to do. And I've got some links I've been meaning to add permanently to the main page. I'll try to get to that asap.

I've never heard of a collection in Germany. How did you learn about that?

[edstp62]

These names that you have mentioned, the Cheraw, have you translated this into English? here's a problem for you to look into, the name for avocet the bird, and then translate cheraw into English, I have found that the English language has a deeper effect on the native words than anyone realizes, infact there are more meanings in a single native word than in any English one. Why? because the old words are from precise speakers, not from a group that enjoys semantics, so if Sara is Chreaw then look into the word for straws, sticks and the like I can assure you that the word for this bird sounds like Soara , sara etc.no matter what the English have bastardized this word is for long straw, legs bird! Anyway,The collections in Germany have almost all shown up in books published in Germany and never get shown in the English speaking world so you're going to have to look into books published on "Normandicka Indianer" etc,ever hear of the "pow wows " of 10,000 people? in germany!Some of the pottery that you mention sounds very interesting, I'd like to see pic's if you have any,I'm sure that the carttonish carvings you mention are due to artist license or the lack of skill,carving shell with flint is not an easy task. Can you tell me if there is a group of Eastern Blackfoot looking to get stae recognition ? this is it thanks again. TP

[Linda]

The only thing I've heard is that English people had a bad time understanding what they were hearing in native words, and that they badly corrupted them. Combined with the fact that at that time English spelling was highly irregular, you'll have half a dozen bad corruptions of the same word. It gets very confusing.

I didn't know there was any language material existant on the Cheraw language. Is it the same as Catawba?

You mean that there's a pow wow craze in Germany? Gee, wait till all those New Age bashers hear about that. hehe.

As far as Saponi Blackfoot, we're it as far as I know. Personally I have no interest in starting up another BIA kennel club. Did I say that? (That's intended as a slur on the BIA, not anybody they've imposed upon.)

From what I know of the requirements we're way out of line -- a lost cause (yippee). Can you tell I'm not too keen on the concept? From what I've observed that particular Wonderland just gets curiouser and curioser the deeper you get into it.

Yesterday, somebody on an e-list said that a community incorporating as a city has far more sovereignity than an Indian tribe. Gee, I wonder how the real estate prices are in Saxapahaw? . . .

That reminds me of something I overheard last weekend. A lady at a pow wow was talking about how her tribe's land was stolen and something about getting it back. Then she complained about how a lot of Myrtle Beach is now owned by Japanese, making it all the more complicated.

I thought, fifty years ago the Japanese were some of the poorest people on earth. Everything they had had just been destroyed. Now they're so rich they're buying big chunks of their conquerors'country. It's not complicated how to get land. You just buy it.

[This message has been edited by Linda (edited 12-04-2001).]

[edstp62]

Hello, no that word is not Cheraw it is Saponi, and as far as the Bia Kennel club comment goes,it's fine with me. My family was asked to send our history in to help with another groups gen, recogntion,when I asked the oldest members of our group up here they all said"no! we have one country telling us who we are we don't need a second"! and as you might guess our family has about 300 Canadian members the last time I counted and that was several years ago.One comment that you did make ealier was that there was 2 groups of Siouian people that settled out there , if they settled out there then where dd they come from? So many people are into the current Indian scene and won't look into our ancient history, I guess I have to say that I'm more interested in what happened in 1490 that what was going on in 2001! The real undersatanding of what is going on is with the old folks tradtional or not,we all have a piece of the puzzle ,we just need to get together to piece it back together. Tell me please what is your New Age Bashers , bashing? I have heard that the BIA has made it illegal for non status people to sell items called Indian if someone is not from a recognized Indian tribe, rather odd your Offices can tell people who they are with out asking. (It's not up to me to prove who Iam , it's up to them to prove who Iam not)! Anyway I don't want to get into politics but you're right the BIA (and the same offices up here) are rather mute points. What I don't understand is that in some states very early, they had "half breed " tracts and then they disbanded the policy, it was a hairs breath away from our Metis policies up here, giving the body of people the right to address both sides or more of who we are, I well and truley believe that the Indian Offices SUCK! That includes the concepts of blood quantum, if we are our parents children then does it really matter if we are a bit lighter or darker than the are? The point is we are all human and we need to celebrate our differences. OOOOPs I gues I'm getting off track.Anyway, I hope to see some of your work up soon, thanks agian, Tom.

[Linda]

Are you saying that there are 300 people in Canada with the same, "Other" Blackfoot descent as you?

I guess the archeologists are the ones saying that all the Siouan people originated in the Ohio region.. It's my interpretation that around the time when the big impressive mound building cultures like the Anastazi crumbled (I think because of a change in climate that hit the big complex systems hard with prolonged famines) new groups, like the Siouan, started to flourish and fill in the vacuum.

I've heard that there are some western Siouan, (Dakota maybe?) who have oral traditions that coincide with the Ohio theory. But it's interesting that so many of our people migrated [back] into Ohio while fleeing the Americans.

Sorry I was talking about the BIA as if they're pertinent to all of us. I always forget that when I'm speaking to a Canadian. You all must get tired of it.

I never heard of "half breed" tracts in the US. By "tracts" do you mean reservations? That's very interesting. I often tell people that what I've theorized is that my family, for a good while, were like the Canadian Metís. They were a little subculture unto themselves, marrying their own, moving along the frontier together. But they just got called "pioneers." I wonder how many people got used that way -- people who were really retreating back into old haunts "blazing" the trail for the greenhorns fresh off the boat. How convenient.

You said, "Ïf we are our parent's children, then does it really matter if we are a bit lighter or darker?" Exactly!

If I go into the next world, determined to look after my grandchildren, and their children and so on, am I going to reach a point where I don't care about them anymore because they don't look like I did? Or they live in so different a world that they'll no longer seem precious to me when they're born?

One of my grandmothers was from way, way back in the "Old Country" as they called it. The world I was born into was vastly different than the one she was born into. She adored me.

What usually happens when a mixed race baby is brought home to a white family that has always been racist? Do they crumble? Yes!

If Gloria had brought home a bi-racial baby to Archie Bunker, what do you think would have happened? Doting grandpa, that's what. And it would be like all the rubbish he'd always espoused had never happened. If anything, he'd be more protective because he knew intimately what was out there.

You hit the crux of it. All this is a family affair, and really nobody else's business -- not our neighbor's, and certainly not the government's. That's my opinion.

I'll try to get some scanning done of my crafts as soon as possible.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Tom

I had a relative I was trying to trace that mysteriously left West Virginia in the middle of the night and never returned. On records I was sent it states that this relative lived and died in a place called
Tisedale, Canada. Can you tell me where this is located? I was told he left one step ahead of the law and that he obtained a land grant up there and stayed.

This involved my FPC Collins ancester with connecting names of Robb, Fields, and LaDuke.

Brenda

[edstp62]

Hello, Yes I said that our family was 300+ strong and that there are other families up here with the same background as our own history and we have been friends with some of them for some time infact my nice has married one of these folks. I find many people along the US boarder have many connexions to the Usa and to the Cherokee people as well, some infact are voting members of the w, Band in OK. Our own family are considered a bit off, when we were subjected to the Brit's here during one of our funerals when we insisted on placing grave offerings in the coffin! more than that the local "clergy"club had discussions about it and made it fairly well known that our families traditions were something( that in short polite words for this forum)had totaly confused thier ethnocentrical beliefs, how sad for them, when we were questiond on it we told them that what we do and did was "none of thier @#$% business" anyway you mentioned racism, sothern Alberta is the Alabama of the north, we don't have chain gangs and we have better roads, that is the only difference! Sorry! anyway yes we do have problems but we adapt quite well. The "half breed" tracts were in Iowa and Nebraska ,mostly in Richardson co.Neb. I think? some old family history is there for my family. Brenda I believe that Tisedale is in Ontario,I have never heard of any Tisedales anywhere else, this is a very British sounding eastern word,if you ned a hand finding anything let me know, you mention land grants etc it sounds as though this was prior to 1935 when Canada was opened up for homesteading in which case your kin if he had any would probably be not far from where he lived, atleast still in that part of Canada. I have met Collins people from New Brunswick and they are all very dark.Thanks again Tom.

[Linda]

Well now, isn't that good news from the Northern Door! It makes me happy to think there's such a big cohesive group of s'poni Blackfoot (as Nicole would say) tucked away somewhere.

How much do you think your community has been influenced by other Indians they've lived around? I wonder if it's possible to know if something, like what you were saying about the grave offerings, was carried undiluted from the past. And if it's possible to know, how one would go about demonstrating it.

Actually, we don't have chain gangs around here. They do have minimum security prisoners cleaning up the highways, but no chains, and I do think our roads are better than any up north. No frost to heave the asphalt, you see. But as far as the racism goes, it's hard to tell. It's more segregated down here in NC than it is up north, but people are friendlier. Blatant crude racism I've never seen. People just wave and say hi. They might hate your guts, but they still wave and say hi.

Don't ever believe anything Hollywood tells you about American southerners. It's some of the worst stereotyping there is, but nobody's ever complained. Maybe they're just biding their time till the next round of the civil war.

I think if you would share what you can on your family history, genealogies, etc. it could help a lot of us working on that northerly migration. And if you all were granted land that was publicly acknowledged to be a "mixed breed" allotment, then for once, there's some hard evidence.

I've heard of it happening before -- people who are still living on old tribal land, proving they're Indian because they can show a paper trail to cousins, who in a different part of the country, or continent, were acknowledged to be Indian.

I'm glad you found our forum, Tom. More later.

Brenda, you sure do have some colorful Collins behind you. My favorite, though, is still that one who lived with the bear, or was it a panther? HAHA. Those were some WILD ndn's.

[Linda]

I noticed today that there is a Tuckahoe, New York.

[edstp62]

Hello Brenda, no I haven't forgot I just got a bit behind. Well I 'm sure that our family was in contact with other Indian people because where ever they moved to it was almost within walking distance of another group of native people. How have other people affected us as a group? I don't think that they have because when we have shown up with other groups we are always asked who are we and so we define ourselves on our own terms. As for our burial traditions I think that they are so private that it's an area that is almost closed even to our spouses, no kidding! We have not married into any other Native group. I have an uncle that married a Cree woman and a cousin that married a Cree man and a sister that had a son and daughter with a local Blood man but for the most part the family tradtions I know about come from my Mothers side of the family and her father was a Cockney.The other tribal groups that we came into contact with have never had much of an impact on us,no foods, only one medicine that I know of. Regarding the south, yes I have been there several times and I can tell you that New Orleans is a hell hole! I was never so abused in my life as when I stayed there and visited with people who are no longer friends! perhaps it was just them but they were the type to have 11 11 11 written on there walls,and only special KKK for breakfast. The other people in the south that I know are some of the most articulated people that I know and count them as very dear friends,sad when proffessionals leave a bad taste for all.As for the all saying hi! well I think that the "up north" that you may be refering to could be the Yankies' and no! Canadians are not Yankies. We are Canadians. As for my families northern migration it kind of goes like this,1845-1850 they leave Tn, 1860 they show on the IN census,1870 they are in WI, 1890 they are in Iowa and Nb,1900 they are in MN 1905 they are in Wy and in 1920 they are in Alberta canada.But there was 2 boys that kind of stayed together, one went to Oklahoma and the other went to Mn but by 1900 they were in NB off and on and the by 1905 they were both in Wy but the older went to Canada and left his daughter he and his wife returned to Nb where he died in 1926 then his widow remarried by the 1930s went back to In where she had a farm and her 2 step sons swindled her out of her land and sold it for the coal deposits and then later it became oil rich, she was shipped off to her daughters( with a badly injured leg) in California where she died in 1946?and was planted in Oregon, in the son in laws family cemetary, eventually that side of the family returned to Oregon and are very numerous. The woman refered to was my g.grandmother she had 2 girls and 1 son.As for the half breed tracts in Richardson co. I have never really looked to see if any of the family had land there but that side of the family that was from Nb and Ia was there very early 1830 or so. more on that later. well best to all Tom.

[vance hawkins]

I still live in Oklahoma, as have my ancestors for many generations now. We are fortunate in that we can attend pow-wows/stomps of many nations. There are 39 federally recognized tribes here. Originally 66 tribes (I remember from my jr. high Ok. Hist. class) were brought here, and the rest I guess have since been declared extinct.

But we can visit many cultures from many parts of the nation who were brought here. So we are blesses in that regard.

we are friends with ennrolled Cherokees (eastern Ok), Kiowa (western Ok)& others. But we have also been in the extreme NE corner of Oklahoma where there are 8 small tribes -- Ottowa, Seneca-Cayuga, Delaware, 2 bands of Shawnee, Wyandotte, and a few others. ALL those tribes know of the migrations of many tribes to the Ozarks in Mo & Ar & Ok & Ks. I even met one person who said hwy 60 was called "warriors highway" from Va to Mo.

But I also have a Six Nations friends (mixed Cherokee/Tuscarora) who said many of those same tribes went to Canada, and especially said many Indians from the Atlantic region -- from SC to all points north, wound up living with 6 Nations in Southern Canada.

So there were many migrations off the East Coast for the tribes there.

vance hawkins

[edstp62]

Yes I have heard of many native people moved into the Ontario area, and I'm sure that there are many that we might not hear from. The Six Nations people seam to have been an umbrella for many families and people leaving thier homeland, perhaps in the gentler north, it is easier to live? I have met many people from areas here that have US. blood lines and many have roots in the south.What I would like to know is if there are these Native people moving up to the Six Nations, is there anything left re. their weaving traditions(basket work)? certainly there is identity but I'd like to see more material culture than just the work of the Iroquois. Has there been any archaeological remains found from the sites that once belonged to the Siouan peoples in NC,VA?

[Linda]

For archeological findings on the material culture of Saponi Indians go to this site:
http://rla.unc.edu/Publications/Res_reports.html

There are a number of reports from digs there. They're in pdf format. Some take a long time to download. A few of them I had to download overnight they were so big, but they're worth it, very good illustrations.

[Linda]

The reports for the Eno, Haw areas, and the Alamance sites may well be our Blackfoot. There's a map with one of them, showing all the sites around the area now called Saxapahaw, NC. There were so many black dots for sites, the whole corner of the county for nearly blacked out. a big settlement was there.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Linda,

Can you tell us what you use to open the pdf file....I have never hear of that one.

Brenda

[Forest]

Anyone interested in the mixed race settlements in Hamilton Co and Rush Co, Indiana, should read Stephen A. Vincent's book "Southern Seed, Northern Soil", Indiana Un. Press.(1999) It does an excellent job of tracing these two communities from their roots in the Northampton/Greensville area to Indiana. Family names touched on are mainly Roberts, Watkins, Jeffries, Winburn, Walden, Tootle, Swett, Revels, and Newsome.
These are not delt with as Indian families, altho' the Indian background is noted. The Beech Settlement in Rush Co. is completely gone. Only the church and graveyard remain. Roberts Settlement in Hamilton Co. has a church, graveyard, and a few descendants still in the area.
Many of the descendants made Cherokee application in the early 20th century to be placed on the Guion Miller roll. All appear to have been rejected. See Jerry Jordan's "Cherokee By Blood" series for partial abstracts of these applications. The originals are availible for viewing at the National Archives, or at the Qualla Boundary Reservation in Cherokee, N.C. ( and probably several other places)

[Linda]

Brenda, you need to have Acrobat Reader installed. It's a free download. Just searching on those words should get you to the right place.

Forest, thanks for the info. I talked to Ed Emerson in Vernon County, he was very easy to reach and easy to talk to.

The book Southern Seed, Northern Soil costs $35 at Amazon.com. This link should take you there.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0253335779/neuronet

You can read 21 pages out of the book at Amazon, including the index, which will let you see what surnames are discussed. Most of these families are from Northampton County.

Forest, does this community relate to either the Vernon County, or the Racine, WI communities we've been talking about on this thread? Or is this useful because it goes into depth on a similar community?

[This message has been edited by Linda (edited 12-13-2001).]

[edstp62]

Hello, I have been looking over some of the materials here, and I have a question re. the language family ,what dialect of Sioux did the Blackfoot use? Is there any of this language left anywhere? I think that we should try to find some reference to it. I can say that I would like to see this site more developed than what it is now, so far I think that it is reaching alot of people but more should be done,like showing some of the archaeological materials and more pictures perhaps of some of the old Nations sites etc. Perhaps even family sites with photos etc, what do you say Linda? Thanks for the venue Tom.

[Linda]

Absolutely, I want much more stuff up. I've got materials in my file drawer, with the intention of scanning or typing it in, but it's hard to find the time. Any volunteers?

The language spoken was close to Tutelo, if not the same. There is a "Grammar and Dictionary of Tutelo" just done by a doctoral student. It's available from UMI Dissertation Services 800-521-0600. The author is Giulia R. M. Oliverio. I think you need to specify it's in the dissertation microfilm collection. They have trouble finding it in their list, but IT IS THERE. It's about $40 for an unbound copy, more for binding or hardcover.

There are some pages on language at the Occaneechi site, http://www.occaneechi-saponi.org/tutelo-saponi/wakasik/index.shtml

There was some talk of doing a language class at the Haliwa Saponi site http://www.haliwa-saponitribe.com/, though it doesn't seem to be there anymore. I believe the intention in both cases are to keep it basically for tribal members.

I'm a bit antsy about moving on this myself. I'm seeing what I can do about it. . .

Here's a great link for archeological reports on the VA/NC Saponi:
http://rla.unc.edu/Publications/Res_reports.html

I've gleaned a few images from there myself. Some of these documents are huge files. I've set them to download when I go to bed. Great image quality though. Let me know if you find anything.

As for music, here's a link to some Tutelo music our Cayuga cousins have kept alive:
http://www.ohwejagehka.com/shakethebushdance.htm

[edstp62]

Hey Linda, well that's quite a reply! Yes if I can help I'd be glad to, but how can I from here? I'm very happy about the Tutelo music from our Cayuga cousins1 I hope to hear them one day! I did some checking on the dialect division where the Tutelo would fit and low and behold they are close to the Biloxi and Ofo of louisiana, these 2 groups are a special interest of mine and perhaps we can glean something from thier history.Also i have a good grasp on some of the basket traditions that these 2 groups (aswell as other divisions from this branch of sioux peoples) used prior to contact, which would translate to other art forms patterns etc. When will we see some of the materials from old Blackfoot haunts? why is everything called Saponi? Linda please email me,with directions to send you some photos. Thanks again Tom.

[Linda]

I'm sure you know more than you know you know. How did you happen to become interested in the Biloxi and Ofo?

Send any photos to linda@winwinworld.net
as attachments and I'll get them onto the server. You can hear some Tutelo music right now, just click on that link I just gave. They have three songs on sound files.

Everything is called Saponi because at Ft. Christanna, Governor Spotswood got tired of trying to keep track of who was what, so he just decided everybody would be referred to as Saponi. So from then on, most historical accounts used that jargon.

That's one reason why I treasure the Blackfoot identification we have, it's what we called ourselves, and if it does in fact relate to the large Sissipaha settlement around present day Saxapahaw, then it relates to the Eno/Shakori branch of the Piedmont Siouan.

If you haven't noticed, the post I started under "Shoot the Breeze" has just turned into a Tutelo language immersion thread. I know who Greywolf is, but the other person is a mystery Tutelo speaker.

[edstp62]

Hey, pretty nice stuff happening! Well I started studying Louisiana tribes when I got interested in river cane baskets, that was 1979, and since then I have kept up with some of what is out there on the tribes from that area, and generally across the southeast with some interest in the Qualla Cherokees and many others, including the Ga, groups aswell. If I can ever open those files from NCU. I figure that I should have a good idea of what old NC. Blackfoot cane basketry should look like thanks again, Tom.

[Linda]

Yeah, like I said, some of those are huge files. Set it to download onto your hard drive , (if you've got room) late at night and then you can read them easily. They are worth the trouble.

[edstp62]

Hello, I've looked at the Mingo site it looks very interesting, but like English is a language away from Blackfoot. however the people who speak that language do interest me and I'd like to see more on them, perhaps they will start something in the future, it sounds as though they are or were apart of the 6 Nations. Has anyone looked at reconstructing what the material culture was like for the " Saponi" during the early years of history? Also, in a book re: the catawba there was some good references to historical data on these tribes including Sissipahas,have you seen The Catawba Indians, People along the River? happy trails, Tom.

[Linda]

I haven't seen that book. Thanks for the tip.

The Occaneechi Band of the Saponi have been working hard on material culture. There's a museum at the Occaneechi State Park in Clarksville, VA, and the re-created village in Hillsborough. There are Living Villages three or four times a year. There's a link to their site on the main page.

It's tough because there's very little recorded. Also tough to re-enact accurately since our people were basically "nekkid" Indians much of the year. Basically, folks wore breachcloths or aprons. Period. Wasn't I talking about that awhile ago?

A lot of people have keyed off the "Siouan" aspect and gone for Sioux style garments, but that's not correct. It's all still in-process. There are White's drawings of the Powhatans, Secotan, which I think are probably the closest glimpse we have, Lawson's "history" and Byrd's history of the line with brief descriptions. That's about it.
http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/vcdh/jamestown/images/white_debry_html/white36.html

[edstp62]

Hello,what do you mean "still all in process"? Did you know that in England there is a shirt from the Lawson ? collection that dates before 1660? it has a rare type of "quillwork" on it, it's something that we should look at! Also why do you think our people were called Blackfoot? what could have possibly been the reason for this? do you think that it may have been because they wore black dyed moccasins? there could be many others, but after speaking to elders from the south about this issue 12 years ago it was one issue that they brought up, and I think a good one,even though many southern tribes did, it could be that our folks were the only ones to wear them in that area, and probably would be if some of them did so again. Aswell what pattern or type of moccasin do you think that they may have had? I'd bet that it was of the center seam type like many other southern groups had. I think that some of the very old Plains Sioux clothing may have had a bearing on what our folks wore but it was from a pre-contact period or shortly afterwards, but making use of todays styles seams rather odd,with what we have in old records and what still exists may lead to a better understanding of how we should redefine a clothing style for tribal members. Linda perhaps we need a seperate forum for this topic what do you think? Also you're right on the money when you said that you thought it was wonderful that our families would still remember our traditional name, so with all this outside of the old Blackfoot area (is there still a Blackfoot people in N.C.?) how do they respond to us that are from so far away? I guess that it is up to each of us to define ourselves , but I would like to see some sort of continuity, amongst all of us. What do you think Linda, and anyone else out there too, Tom.

[Linda]

By "in process" I mean like in "work in progress." Do you know where in England that shirt is? I'd like to know more about it. I have a friend over in London who's interested in these things. Maybe he could look it up for us.

My feeling about the meaning of the word Blackfoot is that it's very, very ancient. I say that because there are some Sioux out west called "Sihisapa" which also means Blackfoot. It was when I saw a lady identify herself online as Sihisapa, meaning Blackfoot Sioux, that I thought of that village "Sissipaha" I'd seen mentioned in North Carolina.

I believe the word signifies something that goes back as far as the time when all the Siouan people were together, the archeos say in Ohio. Some Dakota oral histories say Ohio, too.

From the explorer accounts, etc. it sounds like people in the southeast dressed somewhat similarly, regardless of tribe. I mean, I think they were widely different in terms of decoration, but for example, if in one tribe the men just wore breachcloths in summer, the men in the tribe next door weren't dressed in leather warshirts and hip high leggings all summer.

I love the idea of maintaining some continuity however far flung we are. There are Blackfoot in NC, but for the most part, they don't know much more about it than any of the rest of us. Remember, here in the upper south since the early 1700's Indians were classified either as blacks or mullatoes, which is why a lot of people left out of here.

I think there is a commonality, that we're all just kind of finding out about this and about each other at the same time.

We might also fare well since we seem to all be in pretty poor position to be qualifying for recognition as some discrete group that's stayed put in one place for centuries. This could be a good thing since it keeps us all even and independent to do and share as we please. We'll just have to recognize one another and be satisfied with that. Nothing wrong with that. That's all it was ever about.

[edstp62]

Hello Linda,yes the said "shirt" is in the Oxford Museum where all of the earliest material from your area is, it isn't apart of the John Tradescant collections but it is from the same era. If you'd like I can find out more about the item(s) there and let you know, David Bushnell did some articles on the collections over there in American Anthropologist. He mentioned several items that are no longer there, but were apart of the original collection. If you can have your friend do some photo's of these things for this site that would be truley amazing, one article is a "double flap" penant bag" it has 2 flaps on both ends made in the shape of arrow heads,the arrow heads are made of shell beads. There's much to see and discuss,something that we should be looking at. I think that your right about the dress in the south for this topic especially in summer, but in the cooler times of the year and for other purposes they would have had both cloth and hide clothing not to mention the feather mantels etc. I'm quite sure of the moccasin patterns though, I have a photo of my grandmothers sister with her daughter and this young girl during the 1930's was wearing her baby moccasins of a center seam pattern, on this ladies tunic is also some very interesting designs that I hope to share with this group. Regarding the recognition issue I can tell you that I really don't want much part of that, but what I would like to see is a Blackfoot home coming one day, that would include several topics that we discuss here. Well this is it! I will get back to you about the other items etc so, anyway best to all ,Tom.

[Linda]

I did a search on Google for the museum and got this http://units.ox.ac.uk/departments/prm/COLLECTIONS/Intro_to_Collections2.html#anchor1422423

must be the place. Could you just get those references together so they'll know what we're talking about? Then we'll just e-mail them. Maybe we can talk them into putting up a page on their site with photographs of these items and we'll cross-link to them. Great work!

I'd love to see those photos of the little girl with the mocassins, and that lady's tunic. If we can rule out that the pattern on it belongs to one of the tribes your family hung out with along the way, then I think it would be perfectly reasonable to assert that it's ours. This is exciting. The arrowhead motif is interesting. Did you know that Piedmont Siouan men tatooed three arrows onto their left shoulders in varying configurations to signify what band they were with?

There's what I guess must be what you'd call a center seam moccasin pattern on a re-enactor's list I'm on. I used it to make some for my husband and myself. I'll dig up the link if you're interested. It's definitely not a European style pattern. It's based off of measurements taken with a string, not a measuring tape.

As for the homecoming, I'm sure it will be forthcoming. Nothing can beat the recognition of cousins of one another.

[edstp62]

HELLO..Cousin! one of the best publications that I've seen(in part) on the subject is "Tradescant Rarities" by Arthur MacGregor,from Clarendon Press,Oxford 1983. I think that we should get a hold of it, I have only seen bad xeroxs of it and do not know if it's in/on this continent or not. Please Linda I'd like to know more about this tattoo of the 3 arrows,can you tell me more? "3" figures in my family like you would not believe! The link to the center seam moccasins sounds very interesting and yes I would like to see it. I've looked closely at the patterns on my Aunts "tunic" and I'm pretty sure that it is not from any of the groups that our family ever "hung" with. The patterns resemble the cross that's on the rattle snake shell gorgets! I know that our family was around several groups but none with these patterns. I don't know if the patterns are embroidered or if they are beaded but I do know that she did do embroidery. Perhaps we need to look at the photos very closely, like blowing them up etc. More later as always Tom.

[Linda]

OOh, that "Hello Cousin" sure had a warm and fuzzy feeling to it! Same back at ya!

I don't know any more about the three arrows. There is an illustration in Swanton's book on Southeastern Indians. (I copied the stuff on the Saponi out and intend to type it up.) Anyway, the illustration shows a variety of arrow configurations, but it doesn't specify what's what. It seems like that data is somewhere, as they're numbered, but it wasn't there.

What's been happening is that various bands have been setting their own configurations. The Monacans have one that's been around for awhile. The Occaneechi Band of the Saponi have theirs. We designed one last summer for us "unincorporated" Saponi. Ours point to the left, are staggered with the top arrow being left-most.

We'll have to get ahold of that book. Have you checked Amazon yet? It's surprising how much they can have. I'll be waiting to see those designs from your aunt's tunic. I've got a paint program that will be useful to help blow up and isolate the design.

Got to run. TTYL.



[This message has been edited by Linda (edited 12-29-2001).]

[edstp62]

Hello, yes that "cousin" was meant to have a warm fuzzty feeling to it! I will be putting some negatives in to get copies for you and I will be calling my Aunt who owns the pic. to see if she can have a large lazer copy done for us, the photo is from about the 1930's so is back there a ways.I will try and track down some more info. on the Tradescant collection etc. I have seen a photo of the "shirt" in a small book called "A symposium on Crow Indian Art". Also I will try and track down the unpublished info. from Swantons papers perhaps he actually recorded something that we can use. Also I will send to you a copy of the bag with 4 arrowheads on it as well .

[Linda]

Cool!

[itconani]

Hey all.
a few points i wanted to bring into this discussion.
the ofo and biloxi are sioun speakers, however they are unrelated to saponi interests.
they more closely resemble their muskogee neighbors in material culture and lifeways.
Cheyenne speak Algonquian dialect but are unrelated to the algonqiuan speaking pennobscot in maine. Make sense? Big language family. small cultural area.

"why is everthing referred to as saponi that is blackfoot here " tom asks.
Good question tom. Other than the sissipaha connection to Saponi, we dont know.
there is good oral tradition to relate blackfoot labels to triracial indian groups in VA/NC
however, as a tribal entity of "blackfoot" it seems as prevelant as "cherokee". What do all the other Saponi townships refer to themselves as? are the only folks missing the town of Sissipaha? more "blackfoots" than available saponis. need more indian groups.

Tuckahoe indians - good stuff. another "blackfoot" label of oral tradition.
ive got written documents on one family of "tuckahoe" indian. this bears more insight.
dont lose sight of tuckohoe in search of blackfoot - its another "marker" for triracials in VA/NC indian country. Blackfoot Cherokees sounds to be right out of Virginia. Corruption of original descent confused by time and replaced with familiar material.
Tuckahoes out there? respond! Virginia Algonquian by the way.

Material culture for sioun of virginia/north carolina - lots of scattered goodies.
the oxford biz is good - try ashmolean museum , thats where the material tom refers to is housed.
"the Virginia purse" "powhatans mantle" "Virginia Bow 1660" etc.
Pequots also have originial of Va indian man (engraving) dissimiliar to white's or debry's look - could be VA sioun or Iroquioan.
centerseam mocks for sure. check out "aged man in winter" from Debry. clear center seam.
Smith and strachey also account for clothing styles as such. Checkout Rountree on Virginia indians material culture. Very simialar in construction at that time.
Va. Dept. of historical resources has good material on pottery / carving/ decorative works. even one preserved garter from Fort Christianna region. contact me on field trip - know the staff well - easy access to study collection. lots more out there.
Saura town woman from Nat'l Geo - good work there. however, reconstruction beadwork done by a western craftsman from Wyoming. I have dress patterns and inventory list from curator - also a bronze statue on display outside of NC history museum with full outfit and facial reconstruction of this NC sioun woman.
alot of resources not on web yet? most of mine are in print / photo / slide format.
anyone seen the reconstruction work at old explorer park near roanoke va or monacan work at natural bridge?
later

[edstp62]

Hau Kola, first let me say (igwasisdi) that when I refered to the Biloxi and Ofo that it was in direct reference to thier language and (by using several methods) we could draw on thier language to compare to an established premise and therefore come to a conclusion or atleast a better understanding of what we could be missing, thusly giving us a direction to move towards!As for the material culture of the Biloxi and Ofos historic communities little is known, however they both did embrace the culture that surrounded them, atleast that's what the X-perts have assumed. Please clarify your statements re labels to "triracial indian groups" prior to your comments on the Tuckahoe. As for the term tuckahoe I've never heard that term in my family ever! It sounds as though your eluding to the premise that tri-racials are less than biracial communities, let me say that black or white still is not red, but does that really matter? No! Blackfoot-Cherokees is not right out of Virginia since my Family is Canadian and they have not been in Va. for a very long time if ever! The one issue here that needs to be addressed is the garter, these "garters " are not always garters, they have many uses, and should be clearly identfied as that if that was what it is.As for the rest of your material it sounds very interesting and I hope that you will keep sharing and I hope that one day I hope to shake your hand. Best to all ,Tom.

[Linda]

Could you elaborate a bit more on some of these references:


Smith and strachey also account for clothing styles as such. Checkout Rountree on Virginia indians material culture. Very simialar in construction at that time.
Va. Dept. of historical resources has good material on pottery / carving/ decorative works. even one preserved garter from Fort Christianna region. contact me on field trip - know the staff well - easy access to study collection.

Smith? Strachey? Rountree? Do you have full names and titles?

Where is this VA dept of historical resources?

[itconani]

Hau tom
i have not read your whole line of comments, but assume you know your stuff!
clarity on triracials -
the southeast is a special region, unlike other areas of the continent. The idea of being "less than" is no where in my mind. I claim triracial and biracial descent. many groups from the south are 500 years into intermarriage - similiar to the Metis on your side of the border. please keep in mind that many of these groups identify themselves as indian, even with triracial backgrounds. Not less as a people - just more history of many cultures colliding.
Check out Anthony J. Paredes on southeastern indians of the 20th century, or the last chapter of Charles Hudson's The Southeastern Indians.

On Cherokee / Blackfoot - no idea if your not from here. maybe a long history of migration (several hundred years?) i thought you had traced yourself back to this neck of the woods.

tuckahoe is interesting though. that is one of many powhatan algonquian "loan words" in the english language. the root is proto algonqian /*takw-/ 'pound fine, bray, beat, to a powder' identical in cree, ojibway, shawnee, menominee, delware, and powhatan algonquian dialects. This is homophonous with and perhaps related by semantic extension to the PA (proto algonquian) root /*takw-/ "among or between 2 particulars (pound?), together'
following this is the transitive PA /*-ah-/ 'by instrument or tool, noun finallized PEA (proto eastern Algonquian) /*ahkw-/ 'taproot, bole, large root, and trunk'. Many variations beyond this on bread, pounding, roots etc. Check out Frank T.
Siebert, Jr. on Algonquian architypes.
The prescence of arrow arrum from florida texas northward to maine and new york and southern ontario makes this a widespread usage word - and that roots were used for meal long before introduction of maize from the south.
however, since english observers first encountered it in va, powhatan takes credit for the loan in english. hence a special significance to "Tuckahoe" indians in this region. im excited about this term because it is less used than other cultural markers for indian descents.


Ofo and Biloxi are definately our sioun people from the south - along with other major dialects of Catawba, Quapaw, tutelo, and woccon.
However, according the linguistic work done by Horatio Hale (1870)(1883), the Rev. Joseph Anderson (1872), Leo Frachtenburg (1907)(1913), and Edward Sapir (1911)(1913) the closest Sioun to Tutelo (saponi dialect) is Dakota and maybe hidatsa. In a macro view of migration, this lends to the idea of a very early prehistory in the ohio valley region. ( side note: cahokia is thought to have been Dakota linguistically) from there, migration carried the proto group out at different points into different directions.

On garters -
deffinately garters, portion preserved is about 2 inches in width, maybe 8 inches lon. geometric x's or diamonds in a fingerweave, i believe. ill say garter do to its orientation in situ, however i guess the bandolier is not out of the question. this period along the nottoway and meherrin rivers shows alot of european trade - however shot and firarms were not at the site same circa. Hence, no bandoliers for powder at that time at that site. Garters were documented in use, as was other english broadcloth. Preservation is poor for botanicals here - this piece was saved because of placement near copper.

Linda -
lots of references ill make time next to connect you with authors and publications. you really need to know these folks because they wrote or have written the most on Virginia / carolina earlier years of colonization and susequent indian history / culture / maps.
mostly about Algonquian - but similiar in geography and cultural material. Siouns mentioned as are iroquois of area. more later.

[edstp62]

Thank you for the responce Itconani, first let me say I do read all of th responces and I hope that you will also in the future! Yes I have traced our family back to the old Blackfoot homeland but I can't say that they were ever in Va. if I'm ignorant of the facts please forgive me. My G.Grandmothers father was born in Tn and may have left (with his folks) during some later removal but was born in 1839, died in 1916, his daughter came to Canada and her daughter my Grandmother had 11 kids prior to the baby boom, so we do know who we are! Where in the grave? was this "garter found"? I can tell you that I have seen what can be called a garter worn as a choker style necklace and many of these pieces were used in prisoner ropes and aswell on tump lines so I'd like to see more about this piece. Bandoliers would indicate that it was from above the waste below the neck. As for the patterns coming from a "finger-woven" article it would have to be woven with reversals in it to create x paterns, if it was twinned then it would be easier to do, there are several more types of weaving done off loom. If I could see a good image of it I could define the technique and maybe the use. I believe that we will never know how many types of weaving methods were once here but this should be interesting. your approach to the liguistic material sounds very with it, I have a friend in Ga. that you should meet one day. He too has some interest in the Tuckahoe, it's very intresting that you bring the translation to the forum. I can tell you that I don't believe that our people were Mongolian rejects,and that many people came from S. America, and so did many basket traditions including the tradition of river cane,( the "shaker style" hexagon weave is a native American method prior to contact!) but people "gafaw" at this theory, the use of arrow arrum sounds like it may support my thinking certainly folks had this basket tradition prior to the use of maize. Any way this is it! thank you very much for sharing Itconani, and I would like to meet you, Tom.

[itconani]

tom -
you bet! lots of info on the migration patterns beginning to emerge. ideas include consistant waves from north, as well as influx from the south. Check out video from Nova? or Na'tl Geo? on Kenewick man. good stuff there.

the garter - we would have to get photo from study collection. i dont think its ever been photographed or studied much. Additionally its been 8ish years since ive seen it personally. if a trip develops ill make it a point. have you spent much time looking at house construction matt weaving? cornhusks? i have some good articles on iroquois husk weaving for shoes (inserts for cold weather). tough to do but very beautiful. how about feather weaving in garments?

where in tennessee are your people from?
best

[Linda]

Itconani, when you get a chance to read this whole long thread, you'll see that Vance is the one with the Tuckahoe reference.

There are good opportunities looming for re-enactment and I'd love to see some of us ready for it. There's a thread on here somewhere that I posted about the little "skirts" that our women wove. White's drawings of women in these skirts resemble what William Byrd described in his history of the line. (I imagine one day when I've walked on and get a chance to chat with some of the ladies who were at Fort Christanna they'll remember old Will as that annoying fop who kept trying to peek up their skirts.) Apparently dogbane was used.

Re-creating a feather mantle would be stunning, but very time-consuming, even with modern materials. To be pristine and use the historic materials would be an awesome undertaking.

[edstp62]

A BIG Hello! yes I have seen some on house construction and have done a little but not a great deal! I have heard of kenniwick man and several others, I think that the big waters around us have only served to transport people much easier instead of isolating us. Mat weaving is something that I have done some research on and I can tell you that I have woven metis sashes for dance groups, yes that means a sash for each dancer! I have worked with many types of raw materials including nettle, dog bane , corn husk, various types of bark and animal tissues, skins, bird skins, feathers quills,tree roots, grasses and on and on not to mention palmetto, river cane and a stunning inner bark of the southern poplar trees,which Rumplstlintskin would have killed for! If you'd like to work on recreating a feather garment let me know, I'd be "there" will bells on!. There is some feather wrapped cords from Arkansas that must have been beautiful when they were new!and the methods used greatly resemble quill work! As you can see this has been a good part of my life, for most of it!I have made quality replicas for museums here in Alberta and have some nice pieces in the homes of many people.Time consuming? not when its a labour of love! My family was in White county for around 30 years as far as I can tell from the few records that I can find but I'd say that they may have been there much longer. Can you tell me where and who I'd contact about the garter from Fort Christanna? My e-mail is edstp62@hotmail.com perhaps I can have one done some time soon and post pics of the replica here on this site,can you help us out? Best to All,Tom.

[edstp62]

LInda ,just a Ps.I have some pic's copied and will post them on Monday!also I will call my Aunt and get her to do lazer copies as soon as she can.Tom

[truesaponi]

A Tutelo dictionary can be found from the UMI website www.umi.com. (http://www.umi.com.) Look for a Dictionary and Grammar of Tutelo by Giulia Oliverio

[truesaponi]

Sorry Linda I didn't see your previous post about the dictionary

[Linda]

Thanks for the link. Do you know what to search on to find her book? I typed in Oliverio, and Tutelo and nothing came up.

[edstp62]

Linda just a note, I contacted Arthur MacGregor and he's sending some info to me when I get it I'll share it with you,I'm posting some photos to you today. please answer my last emails. Best to all Tom.

[truesaponi]

linda,

I did better by calling them directly.

[Linda]

I got through on the phone too, but I had to be persistent. The lady I talked to couldn't find the title. I believe it was when I told her it was a dissertation that she found it on another list.

Have you been able to deciper her Linguistics'greek? (As in, "it's greek to me") I think most of us would definitely need a middle man to convey the information.

[edstp62]

Hello Linda, your pic's got off ok, I have some info and photos of the bag from Va, in the British Museum, Itconani i hope to hear from you soon via email or on the here. Linda please answer my emails,thanks agian.

[itconani]

sorry so busy!
on the garter -
currently housed in study collection at the Virginia Department of Historical Resources, Richmond VA.
i do not believe it has been photo graphed or studied very much, if it has it would be in the site report. i can get a copy of that report for us if you'd like.
there are quite a few relative sights from this period in southside VA at the VDHR.
also, i could use digital camera to document if needed? let me know more about your cattail weaving for exterior mats. do you have any good resources on those? im interested in the non sewn variety - using a rope binding to create the warp and weft effect.
-buck

[edstp62]

Hello Everyone, Linda thanks for being there! Itconani, tell me what is a fire bringer? the cattail mats that you are interested in are woven much the same way that finger woven sashes are done,the " leaves" are twisted and then commence the over under weave. ,each warp through twist again, you can add or drop a weft just like weaving arrow heads or lightening patterns remember to keep the numbers even and you should keep your frame work very tight the salvage areas should have a binding use a figure 8 stitch back and forth around the edges. Don't use commercial rope you can twist any fibre into a length including bullrush and barks from saplings etc. Various folks had different types of mats some areas over lap some don't. If you're into the cultural area theory then you can sort of deliniate them that way but you'll find the same methods almost everywhere.That's it in a nut shell,perhaps we need to xchange snail mails and send things back and forth. Best to all, Tom.

[Linda]

Itconani, some photos of that material in Richmond would be great. Your suggestion of a field trip sounds pretty good too. I've been intending to do some research up that way.

Thanks for the pics, edstp, can't wait to see them.

I had a pleasant surprise this evening. Airy Dixon called. He's a professor up in New York with Mecklengburg VA ties who's done a lot of good research on the Saponi. I've got a paper of his around here I need to type in and publish here. He says there's been a lot coming out of the University of Mississippi on the eastern Blackfoot identification. Guess I'll mosey on over to my search engine and see what I can come up with.

[edstp62]

Hello All, Please forgive me for not answering your questions Buck ,I've started working Albertas gem stone again and it's not my space but is okay for now. Any way I would like to see some pic's of any materials from down there,but the garter for sure and if you have anything that has been written up aswell.Ofcourse if anyone has any information on basket materials coming from Va and E. Nc please I would like to see them. Linda, some friends over in that area of Ms. and La. say that they always see people with that id as Blackfoot and of course Blackfoot Cherokees, I'm sure that there is a vast group of people with that oral history. Our "family" had about 10 children with almost all of them having large families. Have you ever thought about putting a 1-800 # in a city paper saying "Blackfoot/ Cherokees call? I bet it would be a busy line. Best to all Tom

[Linda]

I couldn't find anything relating to the University of Mississippi and Blackfoot. If anybody knows what to look for, I'd appreciate hearing from you.

Who's going to spring for that phone bill, edstp?

[edstp62]

I'd be willing to pitch in for the bill, we don't have to run it forever, I'm sure that there must be away to do it,I'd bet it's cheaper than the classified adds. OH, this week or next you should recieve those photos and I should be able to send some info. from the British museum on to you that they are sending here. I'll get some good images of that 4 tab bag from va? aswell to you. I'm serious about trying to do a feather mantle if anyone is still interested! would it be possible to start a material culture page on this site Linda?. best to y'all Tom.

[Linda]

Okay, why don't I just set up a "Recreating Material Culture a/k/a Crafts Corner" section on the forum?

[truesaponi]

Linda,

I have been able to decipher some of her "greek" because I have taken several linguistic classes in graduate school and because I have also taken and been very successful in a few Lakhota classes, which is very similar to Tutelo. I have also corresponded with her since 1995. If you would ask specific questions about the grammar I might be able to give you specific answers. First of all, Tutelo and all Siouan languages are Subject-Object-Verb (SOV) languages. Let me give you a few examples, ignoring the stress and length of the vowels. By the way a colon ( http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif means that the length of the vowel is twice the length of a short vowel.

Anyway my example:

Wa:kta':ka kiN pi:wa 'the man is good'
man the good-real

Subject def-art verb

Vs.

Wa:kta:'ka pi: kiN 'the good man'
man good the

Subject verb def art

In the first example the fact that the man is good is a state of being thus he is verbalized he is being good. The second example does not include a verb, it is the equivilant to what we would call an adjective in English. One might ask the good man did what.

Wa:kta:'ka pi: kiN ophe':wa 'the good man goes enters'

This can get quite complex. I have spent numerous days and hours on this and will be happy to answer questions if you have them. I might not be able to answer all of them, but I feel that I am fairly competent in the language.

[Linda]

Man, this is really good. I just went ahead and make a new section called "Tutelo Immersion" and moved truesaponi's post over there so we can keep all this good stuff together.

[This message has been edited by Linda (edited 01-12-2002).]

[Hilljack676]

Hi Y'all
I am a Tuckahoe descendant but don't know too much about it. My Grandfather, Wilbern Leslie Chelf, a Southern Baptist minister told me we were descended from Tuckahoe. I believe the family came from Virginia. Also my McCoy ancestors were connected to the Cherokee possibly through an ancestor named Thomas Armstrong. These relations came from the Bedford VA area I believe. I believe there are some other Tuckahoe descendants out there too. Perhaps we should try to get together and work on some kind of history.

[CoheeLady]

Hello Everyone!
I'm also a Tuckahoe & Cohee, as this is what my Virginia ancestors were called. Even though my ancestors were called Tuckahoe's & Cohee's they also were called "white settlers in Indian land". So, I guess that possibly is the answer to my European & Indian ancestry! I knew that a Tuckahoe was a root at the base of certain trees along the east coast, that was eaten by the Indians in Virginia. As the English wrote about it, they hated it & couldn't understand why the Indians loved to eat it. English food stinks, what do they know! http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif The word Cohee, or Cohee's wasn't known by any tribe in Virginia, that I spoke to, so remembering that my grandma said we were Cherokee I called Oklahoma. I spoke to a man who said he was the Cherokee Chief. He told me it was a Cherokee word meaning:later, and/or tomorrow. Whether the spelling is right I don't know, I do know that he understood me when I said the word.
Sincerely,
CoheeLady

[Linda]

Who called you Cohee? Is this something that's come down in your family?

[CoheeLady]

Dear Linda,
I had never heard the word Cohee or Tuckahoe, until I was at the Va. State Library doing research on our family with my mom. I was not able to get in touch with the author of the book, as I wanted to know where her information came from. So, I am only going by what was stated in the book. Guess I need to check it out again! As you see that's why I picked my ID. My Cash's were known as Cohee's, in the book. These ancestor's were born in Westmoreland county, Virginia, they all moved to the mountains, following the river. The strange thing is some family members seemed to have came over the mountain, from west to east. Confused yet? http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif We can only trace back to Westmoreland & Stafford counties, with a William & Elizabeth (Skinner) Cash. Most people say that William is from Scotland, but if you don't know who his father is, how can you trace him back to Scotland? You can't! Johnny Cash can believe it, but I'm not going to unless I see proof. Johnny tried to find Indian ancestry in the Cash line, but gave up. Too much work! Well this is one lady who's not giving up. I have known I was European & Indian, but it's hard when other family member's refuse to discuss it. I'm proud of who I am.
CoheeLady

[This message has been edited by CoheeLady (edited 07-27-2002).]

[mdilley]

Tuckahoe was a doragatory word used by Western Virginians who were mostly Irish, Scotish, and German against the English settlers of Eastern Virginia. The English was quite fond of Indian Bread "also called Tuckahoe". Alot of place names in Virginia is called Tuckahoe. When Virginians of English descent started coming to Western Virginia they settled in their own little communtities. One such community was called Tuckahoe in Pocahontas County. The Virginians was always insulted when they was called Tuckahoe, but over time they intergrated into the other Ethnic groups of West Virginia. Alot of the older folks here in West Virginia still use the word Tuckahoe, but not often. I see alot of people takling it to mean they was an Indian Tribe.
Cohee was a word used for West Virginians by Virginians. Cohee is not a Indian word. It is a Scottish word literally meaning "go he" or as it would be said today "he goes". It has really never been determined why West Virginians were called this.

[Linda]

What's your source for this information? Is it common knowledge in some areas of WV? If so, could you let us know whereabouts?

Thanks.

[mdilley]

Okay I will try to answer this the best I can. It all started out when my mother and me started doing our family history. My Grandmother told use about her Grandmother. She said that her Grandmother was a Tuckahoe from Virginia. So I started researching the subject.
It is common in West Virginia and anywhere else in Appalachia that has a Scotch-Irish, or German population to use the word Tuckahoe. Especially in the central and southeastern counties of West Virginia including Pendleton, Pocahontas, Hardy, Randolph, Greenbrier, Braxton, Lewis, and Webster. You don't hear that often today, but alot of the older folks still know the word. And still like to tease Virginians about it today. West Virginia and Virginia has always had this type of Relationship. Still today jokes are made about each other. I guess because of the Ethnic differance between the two states. Sort of like the relationship England has with Ireland.
Besides what I have been taught by people that lived here. I found a couple of sources for this information. One is "Play of a Fiddle" Traditional Music, Dance, and Folklore in West Virginia by Gerald Milnes pg. 67-69. He heads the Augusta Heritage Center at Davis and Elkins College in Elkins, WV. and he also provided some sources for his information;
Brown, in Bean, et. al, 1996, 36.
Hamill 1945
Harold Wentworth, American Dialet Dictionary (New York: Thomas Y. Crowell Company, 1944), 123, See also Hans Nathan, 1996.
A song collected from Everett White, who got it from his Braxton County Grandfather, Nelson Wine.. See AHR-007 for recorded version. Nelson Wine was collected from Cox, 1925.
Fischer 1986 makes numerious religious comparisons and distinctions among peoples of these two regions.

The last two was old songs that poked fun of the Tuckahoes.
After reading this again I made two mistakes. The Tuckahoe Comunity I spoke of was in Greenbrier County instead of Pocahontas. And the Scotish word "Cohee" means "Said He" or "He Said" used today.
And to answer the other questions there is a few places called Tuckahoe. In New York and New Jersey. There is about a dozen place names in Virginia called Tuckahoe. But the only difinition I found for Tuckahoe is the Wild Root that was used to make bread. I have never seen where it was used to discribe a people of mixed Ancestry. Do you have a source for this? I think you maybe talking about the Melungeons? My Green family has been associated with this group, and I can believe it with their physical makeup. Alot of them looked more like Indians then the ones I knew when I lived in South Dakota. I just don't believe there was a Tuckahoe Indian tribe, and I know there wasn't a Cohee Indian Tribe, because the word only leads back to Scotland.

[Linda]

I know it's a bother digging up sources months or years after the fact, but if you could flesh out some of those sources it would be helpful. Some of them look like there's enough info to look them up, but for most there doesn't seem to be enough info to do anything with them.

There have been a lot of odd names assumed by Indian descended, mixed blood groups, like "Portugee." Are you sure the people who are saying these folks are English are from the Dutch side? If it's the allegedly English side, it could be a similar dodge.

[techteach]

Mdilly,
Could you email me information on your Green family? I have Green ancestors who originate in Berkeley County, VA, now West VA. I have been following my family through NA intermarriages from VA, Western PA, Ohio and finally to Iowa. I am interested in seeing Green connections. Email: clanderson@wi.rr.com Thanks.

[mdilley]

I have had a hard time finding anything above George Washington Green in this family. George was born about 1808 in Maryland. According to the 1880 Braxton County, WV. Census his parents were both born in Virginia. George married Mary "Polly" Jack daughter of John Jack May 3, 1831 In Bath County, Va. and lived in Bath until about 1848 when they moved to Nicholas County, WV. During the 1860 they all lived in Western Pennsylvania. According to marriage records it stated some of them being born in Fayette and Greene Co., Pa.. Most of them was back in Braxton County, WV. by the 1880 Census. If you have anything that may help on this family please let me know. Here is what I have;


Descendants of George Washington Green, Sr.


Generation No. 1

1. GEORGE WASHINGTON2 GREEN, SR. (UNKNOWN1) was born Abt. 1808 in Maryland. He married (1) MARY "POLLY" JACK1 May 03, 1831 in Bath County, Virginia1, daughter of JOHN JACK. She was born Abt. 1808 in Virginia. He married (2) EMILY CASTO1 July 04, 1878 in Braxton County, West Virginia1. She was born 1838 in Lewis County, Virginia1.

Notes for GEORGE WASHINGTON GREEN, SR.:
[Green.FBK]

1850 NICHOLAS COUNTY, VA. CENSUS

283-283 GREEN
GEORGE 45, M, FARMER, 100, MARYLAND
MARY 35, F, VIRGINIA
ELLEN 16, F, VIRGINIA
JOHN 15, M, VIRGINIA
GEORGE 12, M, VIRGINIA
THOMAS 10, M, VIRGINIA
CHARLES 06, M, VIRGINIA
POLLY 13, F, VIRGINIA
MILDRED 02, F, VIRGINIA
REBECCA 01, F, VIRGINIA

1860 NICHOLAS COUNTY, VA. CENSUS

585-435 GREEN
GEORGE 52, MD., FARMER
MARY 52, VA., WIFE
JOHN 23, VA., FARMER
GEORGE 22, VA., FARMER
THOMAS 21, VA., FARMER
POLLY A. 20, VA., DOMESTIC
WILLIAM 15, VA., DOMESTIC
MALINDA J. 12, VA.,
REBECCA 09, VA.,
OCTAVE 07, VA.,
DIXON 04, VA.,

Children of GEORGE GREEN and MARY JACK are:
i. ELLEN3 GREEN1, b. Abt. 1834, Bath County, Virginia1.
2. ii. JOHN MARSHALL GREEN, b. Abt. 1835, Bath County, Virginia; d. Bef. 1920, Braxton County, Virginia.
3. iii. GEORGE WASHINGTON GREEN, JR., b. Abt. 1838, Bath County, Virginia.
iv. THOMAS GREEN1, b. Abt. 1839, Bath County, Virginia1.
4. v. MARY ANN "POLLY" GREEN, b. Abt. 1840, Bath County, Virginia.
vi. MALINDA J. GREEN1, b. Abt. 1845, Nicholas County, Virginia.
5. vii. CHARLES WILLIAM GREEN, b. April 20, 1848, Nicholas County, West Virginia; d. July 17, 1895, Knawl's Creek, Braxton County, West Virginia.
viii. REBECCA GREEN1, b. Abt. 1849, Nicholas County, Virginia.
6. ix. ROBERT DIXON GREEN, b. August 1850, Nicholas County, West Virginia; d. December 30, 1936, Braxton County, West Virginia.
x. OCTAVIA GREEN1, b. Abt. 1853, Nicholas County, Virginia1.


Generation No. 2

2. JOHN MARSHALL3 GREEN (GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1)1 was born Abt. 1835 in Bath County, Virginia1, and died Bef. 1920 in Braxton County, Virginia1. He married MARGARET ANN KEENER1 August 07, 1860 in Braxton County, Virginia1, daughter of OLIVER KEENER and JANE DAVIS. She was born Abt. 1841 in Braxton County, Virginia1, and died Bef. 1920 in Braxton County, Virginia1.

Notes for JOHN MARSHALL GREEN:
1880 BRAXTON COUNTY, WV. CENSUS "HOLLY DISTRICT"

PG. 32, GREEN
JOHN M. WM, 45, HEAD, VA, VA, VA
MARGARET A. WF, 34, WIFE, VA, VA, VA
MARY WF, 18, DAU., VA, VA, VA
MALISSA WF, 16, DAU., WV, VA, VA
THOMAS WM, 13, SON, WV, VA, VA
SOLOMON WM, 12, SON, WV, VA, VA
WILLIAM WM, 10, SON, WV, VA, VA



Children of JOHN GREEN and MARGARET KEENER are:
i. MARY4 GREEN1, b. Abt. 1862, Braxton County, Virginia1.
ii. MELISSA GREEN1, b. Abt. 1864, Greene County, Pennsylvania1; m. W. P. NEWLON1, September 27, 1882, Braxton County, West Virginia1; b. Abt. 1848, Braxton County, Virginia1.
iii. THOMAS GREEN1, b. Abt. 1867, Braxton County, West Virginia1.
7. iv. CHARLES WILLIAM "JASPER" GREEN, b. Abt. 1869, Braxton County, West Virginia.
8. v. JOHN SOLOMON " KAFFER" GREEN, b. August 26, 1870, Braxton County, West Virginia; d. April 27, 1943, Braxton County, West Virginia.


3. GEORGE WASHINGTON3 GREEN, JR. (GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1)1 was born Abt. 1838 in Bath County, Virginia1. He married SUSAN UNKNOWN1. She was born November 1842 in Virginia1.

Notes for GEORGE WASHINGTON GREEN, JR.:
[Green.FBK]

CIVIL WAR RECORD
Served as a Private in Co. I, 17th Virginia Cavalry.


1870 BRAXTON COUNTY, WV. CENSUS

174-174 GREEN
WASHINGTON 30, VA., FARMER
SUSAN 29, VA.
SARAH 07, VA.
ELIZA 05, VA.
UNNAMED MALE 3/12, VA.


Children of GEORGE GREEN and SUSAN UNKNOWN are:
9. i. SARAH E.4 GREEN, b. May 1866, Braxton County, West Virginia.
10. ii. ELIZA JANE GREEN, b. September 1867, Braxton County, West Virginia.
iii. MARTHA M. GREEN1, b. Abt. 18701.


4. MARY ANN "POLLY"3 GREEN (GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1)1 was born Abt. 1840 in Bath County, Virginia. She married ABNER VERNON1 April 22, 1862 in Braxton County, Virginia1, son of JAMES VERNON and ELIZABETH UNKNOWN. He was born Abt. 1845 in Clarke County, North Carolina1.

Children of MARY GREEN and ABNER VERNON are:
i. LAVINA A.4 VERNON, b. Abt. 1864, Harrison County, West Virginia.
ii. MARY L. VERNON, b. Abt. 1866, Harrison County, West Virginia.
iii. PERRY C. VERNON, b. Abt. 1869, Harrison County, West Virginia.
iv. JAMES H. VERNON, b. Abt. 1870, Harrison County, West Virginia.
v. FRANK H. VERNON, b. Abt. 1873, Harrison County, West Virginia.
vi. SARAH L. VERNON, b. Abt. 1875, Harrison County, West Virginia.
vii. MARCELLA A. VERNON, b. Abt. 1877, Harrison County, West Virginia.
viii. CHARITY E. VERNON, b. Abt. 1879, Harrison County, West Virginia.


5. CHARLES WILLIAM3 GREEN (GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1)1 was born April 20, 1848 in Nicholas County, West Virginia1, and died July 17, 1895 in Knawl's Creek, Braxton County, West Virginia1. He married (1) MARY UNKNOWN1. He married (2) LAVINA EICHER ZIMMERMAN1. She was born October 28, 1837 in Pennsylvania1, and died December 16, 1903 in Knawl's Creek, Braxton County, West Virginia1.

Children of CHARLES GREEN and MARY UNKNOWN are:
11. i. JOHN MARSHALL4 GREEN, b. Abt. 1865, Bath County, Virginia; d. 1954.
12. ii. WILLIAM T. "BILLY" GREEN, b. Abt. 1867, Connellsville, Fayette County, Pennsylvania.
13. iii. MARY BELL GREEN, b. Abt. 1870, Connellsville, Fayette County, Pennsylvania.


Children of CHARLES GREEN and LAVINA ZIMMERMAN are:
iv. MARGARET SOPHIA4 GREEN1, b. May 21, 1876, Greene County, Pennsylvania1; m. PERRY FLOYD GILLISPIE1, July 18, 1900, Braxton County, West Virginia1; b. Abt. 1879, Braxton County, West Virginia1.
14. v. JAMES LEWIS GREEN, b. June 15, 1879, Braxton County, West Virginia.
15. vi. DORA BLANCHE GREEN, b. May 24, 1881, Braxton County, West Virginia; d. September 1945.


6. ROBERT DIXON3 GREEN (GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1)1 was born August 1850 in Nicholas County, West Virginia1, and died December 30, 1936 in Braxton County, West Virginia1. He married SARAH SKIDMORE1 October 25, 1877 in Braxton County, West Virginia1. She was born November 1854 in Braxton County, West Virginia1.

Children of ROBERT GREEN and SARAH SKIDMORE are:
16. i. MALINDA C. "LINNIE"4 GREEN, b. August 1878, Braxton County, West Virginia.
17. ii. MARY ETTA GREEN, b. November 25, 1880, Braxton County, West Virginia; d. May 09, 1964, Braxton County, West Virginia.
iii. GEORGE A. GREEN1, b. October 1883, Braxton County, West Virginia1; m. ZELLA J. FACEMIRE1, December 29, 1909, Braxton County, West Virginia1; b. Abt. 1891, Braxton County, West Virginia1.
iv. SUFFRONA B. GREEN1, b. March 1886, Braxton County, West Virginia1; m. GEORGE DEMASTUS1, September 19, 1923, Braxton County, West Virginia1; b. Abt. 1883, Braxton County, West Virginia1.
v. SUSAN H. GREEN1, b. July 1888, Braxton County, West Virginia1; m. OSCAR A. FRAME1, December 28, 1910, Braxton County, West Virginia1; b. Abt. 1876, Braxton County, West Virginia1.
vi. ALVIN R. GREEN1, b. February 1892, Braxton County, West Virginia1.
vii. PERRY L. GREEN1, b. October 1894, Braxton County, West Virginia1.


Generation No. 3

7. CHARLES WILLIAM "JASPER"4 GREEN (JOHN MARSHALL3, GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1)1 was born Abt. 1869 in Braxton County, West Virginia1. He married MARY HEATER1 September 22, 1895 in Braxton County, West Virginia1. She was born May 1877 in Braxton County, West Virginia1.

Children of CHARLES GREEN and MARY HEATER are:
i. CHARLES5 GREEN1, b. December 18951.
ii. WILLIAM GREEN1, b. May 18981.
iii. OKEY GREEN1, b. January 19001.


8. JOHN SOLOMON " KAFFER"4 GREEN (JOHN MARSHALL3, GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1)2,3 was born August 26, 1870 in Braxton County, West Virginia3, and died April 27, 1943 in Braxton County, West Virginia3. He married ELIZA ELIZABETH KNIGHT November 09, 1898 in Braxton County, West Virginia3, daughter of JONATHAN KNIGHT and ELIZABETH BARKER. She was born June 09, 1882 in Braxton County, West Virginia3, and died July 19, 1929 in Braxton County, West Virginia3.

Children of JOHN GREEN and ELIZA KNIGHT are:
i. BERTHA5 GREEN4,5, b. August 1899, Braxton County, West Virginia5.
18. ii. GRACE IRENE GREEN, b. January 11, 1901, Braxton County, West Virginia; d. August 03, 1988, Cowen, Webster County, West Virginia.
iii. NELLIE GREEN6,7, b. Abt. 1904, Braxton County, West Virginia8,9; m. HENRY GILLESPIE10,11, April 21, 1921, Braxton County, West Virginia11; b. 1892, Braxton County, West Virginia12.
iv. REDGE GREEN12,13, b. Abt. 1904, Braxton County, West Virginia13.
v. JOHN MARSHALL GREEN13, b. Abt. 1906, Braxton County, West Virginia13.
vi. GERTRUDE ELIZABETH GREEN13,14, b. September 10, 1910, Braxton County, West Virginia15,16; d. April 30, 1989, Sutton, Braxton County, West Virginia17; m. CHARLES WYATT18,19, December 06, 1925, Braxton County, West Virginia19; b. 1903, Braxton County, West Virginia20,21.

Notes for GERTRUDE ELIZABETH GREEN:
[Green.FBK]

Gertrude Elizabeth Wayt
D.O.B. 9/10/1910 D.O.D. 4/30/1989
P.O.D.: Sutton
Cause of death: congestive heart failure
Mother: Eliza Knight
Father: John Green (Keffer)

vii. MABEL GREEN22,23, b. Abt. 1914, Braxton County, West Virginia23.
viii. FLOYD GREEN24,25, b. Abt. 1915, Braxton County, West Virginia26,27.
ix. JAMES GREEN28,29, b. Abt. 1917, Braxton County, West Virginia29.
x. GRANVILLE K. GREEN29,30, b. August 22, 1918, Braxton County, West Virginia31,32; d. August 11, 194433.


9. SARAH E.4 GREEN (GEORGE WASHINGTON3, GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1)33 was born May 1866 in Braxton County, West Virginia33.

Notes for SARAH E. GREEN:
1900 Braxton County, WV. "Holly District"

Sarah E. Green, head, b. May 1866, age 34, divorced, 4 children (2 living)
Harvey Green, son, b. Aug 1887, age 12
Ada Green, daughter, b. Apr 1899, age 1



Children of SARAH E. GREEN are:
i. HARVEY5 GREEN33, b. August 1887, Braxton County, West Virginia33.
ii. ADA GREEN33, b. April 1899, Braxton County, West Virginia33.


10. ELIZA JANE4 GREEN (GEORGE WASHINGTON3, GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1)33 was born September 1867 in Braxton County, West Virginia33. She married (2) GRANVILLE W. WILSON33 December 04, 1904 in Braxton County, West Virginia33. He was born Abt. 1844 in Lewis County, West Virginia33.

Notes for ELIZA JANE GREEN:
1900 census: Braxton County, WV, Holly District, sheet 9B:

Eliza Jane Green, head, b. Sep 1867, age 32, single, 5 children (4 living)
Archie Williams, son, b. Feb 1889, age 11
Roy E. Green, son, b. Jan 1894
Ora F., daughter, b. Aug 1896, age 3
Nora M., daughter, b. Jan 1899, age 1

Notes for GRANVILLE W. WILSON:
[Green.FBK]

1910 census: Braxton County, WV, Holly Magisterial District, sheet 13A:

G. W. Wilson, head, age 72, married 2
Eliza J, wife, age 43, married 1, 10 childred (8 living)
Archie, son, age 21, single
Roy E., son, age 16
Ora Fay, daughter, age 14
Bertha A., daughter, age 9
Emory, son, age 7
Noah, son, age 6
Hallie E., daughter, age 3
Pearl daughter, age 10/12

1920 census: Braxton County, WV, Holly District, Precinct 4, sheet 4B:

E. J. Wilson, head, age 52, widowed
Emory, son, age 17
Noah, son, age 15
Epha, daughter, age 14
Pearl, daughter, age 11
Charley, son, age 9

Children of ELIZA JANE GREEN are:
i. ARCHIE5 WILLIAMS33, b. February 1889, West Virginia33.
ii. ROY E. GREEN33, b. January 189433.
iii. ORA FAY GREEN33, b. August 189633.
iv. NORA M. GREEN33, b. January 189933.
v. BERTHA A. GREEN33, b. Abt. 190133.
vi. EMORY GREEN33, b. Abt. 190333.


Children of ELIZA GREEN and GRANVILLE WILSON are:
vii. NOAH5 WILSON33, b. Abt. 190433.
viii. HALLIE E. WILSON33, b. Abt. 190733.
ix. PEARL WILSON33, b. Abt. 190933.
x. CHARLES WILSON33, b. Abt. 191133.


11. JOHN MARSHALL4 GREEN (CHARLES WILLIAM3, GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1)33 was born Abt. 1865 in Bath County, Virginia33, and died 195433. He married SUSAN SKIDMORE33 September 28, 1889 in Braxton County, West Virginia33. She was born Abt. 1870 in Braxton County, West Virginia33.

More About JOHN MARSHALL GREEN:
Burial: 1954, Airport Cemetery, Sutton, Braxton County, West Virginia33

Children of JOHN GREEN and SUSAN SKIDMORE are:
i. JESSE M.5 GREEN33, b. Abt. 190133.
ii. JAMES A. GREEN33, b. Abt. 190333.
iii. RUTH I. GREEN33, b. Abt. 190533.


12. WILLIAM T. "BILLY"4 GREEN (CHARLES WILLIAM3, GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1)33 was born Abt. 1867 in Connellsville, Fayette County, Pennsylvania33. He married ALICE L. DAVIS33 November 13, 1894 in Braxton County, West Virginia33. She was born Abt. 1870 in Braxton County, West Virginia33.

Children of WILLIAM GREEN and ALICE DAVIS are:
i. RAYMOND5 GREEN33, b. Abt. 1901, Braxton County, West Virginia33.
ii. FRANKLIN GREEN33, b. Abt. 1903, Braxton County, West Virginia33.
iii. ETHEL L. GREEN33, b. Abt. 1905, Braxton County, West Virginia33.
iv. CECIL R. GREEN33, b. Abt. 1907, Braxton County, West Virginia33.
v. OLETA GREEN33, b. Abt. 1912, Braxton County, West Virginia33.


13. MARY BELL4 GREEN (CHARLES WILLIAM3, GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1)33 was born Abt. 1870 in Connellsville, Fayette County, Pennsylvania33. She married LEWIS FRANKLIN "FRANK" DAVIS33 September 09, 1889 in Braxton County, West Virginia33. He was born Abt. 1868 in Braxton County, West Virginia33.

Children of MARY GREEN and LEWIS DAVIS are:
i. ARGEL5 DAVIS33, b. Abt. 1899, Braxton County, West Virginia33.
ii. DACIE M. DAVIS33, b. Abt. 1902, Braxton County, West Virginia33.
iii. LEONORE DAVIS33, b. Abt. 1903, Braxton County, West Virginia33.
iv. MARY BELL DAVIS33, b. Abt. 1912, Braxton County, West Virginia33.


14. JAMES LEWIS4 GREEN (CHARLES WILLIAM3, GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1)33 was born June 15, 1879 in Braxton County, West Virginia33. He married FLORA A. SANDS33 September 23, 1903 in Braxton County, West Virginia33. She was born Abt. 1884 in Braxton County, West Virginia33.

Children of JAMES GREEN and FLORA SANDS are:
i. ANNA L.5 GREEN33, b. Abt. 190533.
ii. EVA A. GREEN33, b. Abt. 190833.
iii. LUCY O. GREEN33, b. Abt. 191033.
iv. JAMES P. GREEN33, b. Abt. 191333.
v. ANNA GREEN33, b. Abt. 191533.
vi. CHARLES GREEN33, b. Abt. 191733.
vii. HARRY D. GREEN33, b. Abt. 192033.


15. DORA BLANCHE4 GREEN (CHARLES WILLIAM3, GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1)33 was born May 24, 1881 in Braxton County, West Virginia33, and died September 194533. She married LEESON ROY GILLISPIE33 June 09, 1904 in Braxton County, West Virginia33. He was born Abt. 1880 in Braxton County, West Virginia33.

Child of DORA GREEN and LEESON GILLISPIE is:
19. i. WILMA KATHRYN5 GILLISPIE, b. February 20, 1912, Braxton County, West Virginia; d. November 28, 1983.


16. MALINDA C. "LINNIE"4 GREEN (ROBERT DIXON3, GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1)33 was born August 1878 in Braxton County, West Virginia33. She married JOB MACK HALL33. He was born November 09, 1874 in Braxton County, West Virginia33.

Children of MALINDA GREEN and JOB HALL are:
i. BOYD S.5 HALL33, b. Abt. 1898, Braxton County, West Virginia33.
ii. PEARL FRAME HALL33, b. May 1900, Braxton County, West Virginia33.
iii. GRANT HALL33, b. Abt. 1904, Braxton County, West Virginia33.


17. MARY ETTA4 GREEN (ROBERT DIXON3, GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1)33 was born November 25, 1880 in Braxton County, West Virginia, and died May 09, 1964 in Braxton County, West Virginia. She married ALBERT EDWARD CUTLIP, SR.33 September 22, 1898 in Braxton County, West Virginia33, son of JACOB CUTLIP and ESTELLA ROSE. He was born May 14, 1878 in Braxton County, West Virginia33, and died October 22, 1919 in Braxton County, West Virginia.

More About MARY ETTA GREEN:
Burial: May 1964, Barker Ridge Cemetery, Braxton County, West Virginia

More About ALBERT EDWARD CUTLIP, SR.:
Burial: October 1919, Barker Ridge Cemetery, Braxton County, West Virginia

Children of MARY GREEN and ALBERT CUTLIP are:
i. HAZEL C.5 CUTLIP33, b. August 28, 1899, Braxton County, West Virginia33; d. January 11, 1992, Braxton County, West Virginia; m. GEORGE MARLOWE; b. Abt. 1897; d. 1942.
20. ii. BERTHA L. CUTLIP, b. February 15, 1903, Braxton County, West Virginia; d. October 1988, Sutton, Braxton County, West Virginia.
iii. RUSSELL O. CUTLIP, b. November 23, 1904, Braxton County, West Virginia; d. September 15, 1989, Sutton, Braxton County, West Virginia; m. MAYME GENE CRITES; b. September 04, 1907, West Virginia; d. November 1982, Sutton, Braxton County, West Virginia.
iv. BRUCE REVA CUTLIP, b. November 22, 1906, Braxton County, West Virginia; d. April 27, 1965, Sutton, Braxton County, West Virginia; m. (1) KATHRYN CRITES; b. Aft. 1906; m. (2) HALLIE STUMP; m. (3) MACEL COGAR.
v. LELA N. CUTLIP, b. January 12, 1909, Braxton County, West Virginia; d. March 30, 2001, Vermilion, Erie County, Ohio; m. ROLAND FLEMING, August 09, 1927; b. Abt. 1906, West Virginia.
21. vi. ALBERT EDWARD CUTLIP, JR., b. November 28, 1910, Tesla, Braxton County, West Virginia; d. August 11, 1993, Webster Springs, Webster County, West Virginia.
22. vii. TIDA DONALD CUTLIP, b. January 11, 1913, Braxton County, West Virginia; d. August 1986, Flatwoods, Braxton County, West Virginia.
viii. HARRY CUTLIP, b. April 05, 1915, Braxton County, West Virginia; d. June 13, 1990, Sutton, Braxton County, West Virginia.
ix. ROBERT CUTLIP, b. April 01, 1917, Braxton County, West Virginia.


Generation No. 4

18. GRACE IRENE5 GREEN (JOHN SOLOMON " KAFFER"4, JOHN MARSHALL3, GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1)34,35 was born January 11, 1901 in Braxton County, West Virginia36,37, and died August 03, 1988 in Cowen, Webster County, West Virginia37. She married STERLING STELMER "STERL" DILLEY38,39 March 15, 1919 in Nicholas County, West Virginia39, son of WILLIAM DILLEY and MARY SHARP. He was born September 15, 1898 in Pocahontas County, West Virginia40,41, and died November 14, 1945 in Webster County, West Virginia42,43.

Children of GRACE GREEN and STERLING DILLEY are:
i. GLADYS MAE6 DILLEY44,45, b. January 24, 1920, Marlinton, Pocahontas County, West Virginia46,47; d. August 27, 1987, Weston, Lewis County, West Virginia48,49; m. CARNEY MCCOMBS50,51; b. 192252,53.
ii. DOROTHY BEATRICE DILLEY54,55, b. February 17, 1921, Marlinton, Pocahontas County, West Virginia56,57; m. (1) LEWIS MARLAND GREEN58,59; b. November 11, 1922, Webster County, West Virginia60,61; m. (2) WILLIAM EVERETT HAMRICK62,63, November 22, 1947, Cowen, WV.; b. August 18, 1926, Bolair, WV.64,65.
iii. WILLIAM FRANKLIN DILLEY66,67,68, b. April 18, 1927, Gauley Mills, Pocahontas County, West Virginia69,70; d. March 24, 1976, Webster Springs, Webster County, West Virginia71,72,73; m. INEZ HOLBROOK74,75,76, September 08, 1947, Erbacon, Webster County, West Virginia77,78; b. June 04, 1925, Boggs, Webster County, West Virginia79.


19. WILMA KATHRYN5 GILLISPIE (DORA BLANCHE4 GREEN, CHARLES WILLIAM3, GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1)79 was born February 20, 1912 in Braxton County, West Virginia79, and died November 28, 198379. She married EDWIN WIRT SWISHER79 May 05, 193079. He was born April 14, 1902 in Jane Lew, Lewis County, West Virginia79, and died February 01, 1948 in Baltimore, Maryland79.

Children of WILMA GILLISPIE and EDWIN SWISHER are:
i. BARBARA JUNE6 SWISHER79, b. McWhorter, Harrison County, West Virginia79; m. (1) WILLIAM D. FRIEND79, October 05, 195079; m. (2) KEITH HALL MCCARTY79, November 08, 197279; b. June 23, 1934, Lewis County, West Virginia79.
ii. JOHN DAVID SWISHER79.
iii. DIANA SUE SWISHER79.
iv. RICHARD NEIL SWISHER79, b. January 09, 193379.
v. JUDITH ELAINE SWISHER79, b. October 10, 1936, Jane Lew, Lewis County, West Virginia79; d. May 29, 1981, Morgantown, Monongalia County, West Virginia79; m. KEITH HALL MCCARTY79; b. June 23, 1934, Lewis County, West Virginia79.


20. BERTHA L.5 CUTLIP (MARY ETTA4 GREEN, ROBERT DIXON3, GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1) was born February 15, 1903 in Braxton County, West Virginia, and died October 1988 in Sutton, Braxton County, West Virginia. She married DOY JAMES. He was born April 27, 1897 in West Virginia, and died November 22, 1982 in Sutton, Braxton County, West Virginia.

Child of BERTHA CUTLIP and DOY JAMES is:
i. DOY B.6 JAMES, b. November 10, 1916, Sutton, Braxton County, West Virginia; d. January 22, 1988, Kent, Portage County, Ohio.


21. ALBERT EDWARD5 CUTLIP, JR. (MARY ETTA4 GREEN, ROBERT DIXON3, GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1) was born November 28, 1910 in Tesla, Braxton County, West Virginia, and died August 11, 1993 in Webster Springs, Webster County, West Virginia. He married OLEVA STUTLER. She was born September 29, 1919 in Caress, Braxton County, West Virginia.

Children of ALBERT CUTLIP and OLEVA STUTLER are:
i. RICKY SAMUEL6 CUTLIP.
ii. TIDA DONALD CUTLIP.


22. TIDA DONALD5 CUTLIP (MARY ETTA4 GREEN, ROBERT DIXON3, GEORGE WASHINGTON2, UNKNOWN1) was born January 11, 1913 in Braxton County, West Virginia, and died August 1986 in Flatwoods, Braxton County, West Virginia.

Child of TIDA DONALD CUTLIP is:
i. EARL TIDA6 CUTLIP.

[coyote]

Osiyo Vance ,
In the brewer line George Brewer born 1775 in NC his father Born 1746 in Brunswick Co VA was said according to my aunts pappers to have been a lg tall man of Turkey ho (sure the sp is off) indian decent with 2 wives and a concubine 30 sons ans 3 daughters .Peaceable but great fighters. His mother Rebeca said to be cherokee in other papers. I have also seen the name tuscurao.
Angie

[Linda]

I'm wondering what else is in your aunt's papers. This information is very interesting. So, does "turkey ho" mean Tutelo, or tuckahoe? The Tutelo are known to have been in Brunswick County, at Fort Christanna. I fact, I believe there's documentation showing there were still some there in 1746.

I'd love to see the context of the other identifications.

[coyote]

Osiyo Linda,
I just got off the phone with her and she said it was a peace than a cuz Jane sent her and she didnt know what it meant.Im going with her in 3 weeks to alton Mo where the Brewer line stops at to see if we can get more info from other family members . She said that the ark side is about 50 miles from there in mamoth springs.Im going to also try and organize what she does have so it can be looked at farther.Sorry not much help to what your looking far but i think cuz Jane is overlooking the indain in our family So ill have to learn how to do this myself. Shes trying to reenforce the fact that we are decented from England Which is true we came as the first settlers here but tere was a lot of mixing after we got here with diferent tribes. Some in the Family wants this to be overlooked .Not me , If grams was proud of being Blackfoot so am i.
Angie

[Linda]

That will be great. Just try to get this info as verbatim as you can. That 'turkey ho,' and 'tuscarao' are much more valuable as is than they would be if you were to try to "correct" the spellings and interpret what it means.

Good hunting. For all the people in your family who may be minimizing this part of the family, it looks as if care has been taken to preserve a good deal more than usual for a very long time.

[Linda]

Bringing thread forward

[sammarroq]

Linda,

I have been able to decipher some of her "greek" because I have taken several linguistic classes in graduate school and because I have also taken and been very successful in a few Lakhota classes, which is very similar to Tutelo. I have also corresponded with her since 1995. If you would ask specific questions about the grammar I might be able to give you specific answers. First of all, Tutelo and all Siouan languages are Subject-Object-Verb (SOV) languages. Let me give you a few examples, ignoring the stress and length of the vowels. By the way a colon ( http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif means that the length of the vowel is twice the length of a short vowel.

Anyway my example:

Wa:kta':ka kiN pi:wa 'the man is good'
man the good-real

Subject def-art verb

Vs.

Wa:kta:'ka pi: kiN 'the good man'
man good the

Subject verb def art

In the first example the fact that the man is good is a state of being thus he is verbalized he is being good. The second example does not include a verb, it is the equivilant to what we would call an adjective in English. One might ask the good man did what.

Wa:kta:'ka pi: kiN ophe':wa 'the good man goes enters'

This can get quite complex. I have spent numerous days and hours on this and will be happy to answer questions if you have them. I might not be able to answer all of them, but I feel that I am fairly competent in the language.


Thought this thread interesting...

[RDCONLEY]

I once lived on a farm on Tuckahoe Ridge in Mason County Kentucky. In the old days , the term "Tuckahoe" was associated with a person from Virginia.

[sammarroq]

Hau tom
i have not read your whole line of comments, but assume you know your stuff!
clarity on triracials -
the southeast is a special region, unlike other areas of the continent. The idea of being "less than" is no where in my mind. I claim triracial and biracial descent. many groups from the south are 500 years into intermarriage - similiar to the Metis on your side of the border. please keep in mind that many of these groups identify themselves as indian, even with triracial backgrounds. Not less as a people - just more history of many cultures colliding.
Check out Anthony J. Paredes on southeastern indians of the 20th century, or the last chapter of Charles Hudson's The Southeastern Indians.

On Cherokee / Blackfoot - no idea if your not from here. maybe a long history of migration (several hundred years?) i thought you had traced yourself back to this neck of the woods.

tuckahoe is interesting though. that is one of many powhatan algonquian "loan words" in the english language. the root is proto algonqian /*takw-/ 'pound fine, bray, beat, to a powder' identical in cree, ojibway, shawnee, menominee, delware, and powhatan algonquian dialects. This is homophonous with and perhaps related by semantic extension to the PA (proto algonquian) root /*takw-/ "among or between 2 particulars (pound?), together'
following this is the transitive PA /*-ah-/ 'by instrument or tool, noun finallized PEA (proto eastern Algonquian) /*ahkw-/ 'taproot, bole, large root, and trunk'. Many variations beyond this on bread, pounding, roots etc. Check out Frank T.
Siebert, Jr. on Algonquian architypes.
The prescence of arrow arrum from florida texas northward to maine and new york and southern ontario makes this a widespread usage word - and that roots were used for meal long before introduction of maize from the south.
however, since english observers first encountered it in va, powhatan takes credit for the loan in english. hence a special significance to "Tuckahoe" indians in this region. im excited about this term because it is less used than other cultural markers for indian descents.


Ofo and Biloxi are definately our sioun people from the south - along with other major dialects of Catawba, Quapaw, tutelo, and woccon.
However, according the linguistic work done by Horatio Hale (1870)(1883), the Rev. Joseph Anderson (1872), Leo Frachtenburg (1907)(1913), and Edward Sapir (1911)(1913) the closest Sioun to Tutelo (saponi dialect) is Dakota and maybe hidatsa. In a macro view of migration, this lends to the idea of a very early prehistory in the ohio valley region. ( side note: cahokia is thought to have been Dakota linguistically) from there, migration carried the proto group out at different points into different directions.

On garters -
deffinately garters, portion preserved is about 2 inches in width, maybe 8 inches lon. geometric x's or diamonds in a fingerweave, i believe. ill say garter do to its orientation in situ, however i guess the bandolier is not out of the question. this period along the nottoway and meherrin rivers shows alot of european trade - however shot and firarms were not at the site same circa. Hence, no bandoliers for powder at that time at that site. Garters were documented in use, as was other english broadcloth. Preservation is poor for botanicals here - this piece was saved because of placement near copper.

Linda -
lots of references ill make time next to connect you with authors and publications. you really need to know these folks because they wrote or have written the most on Virginia / carolina earlier years of colonization and susequent indian history / culture / maps.
mostly about Algonquian - but similiar in geography and cultural material. Siouns mentioned as are iroquois of area. more later.


[Quote] However, according the linguistic work done by Horatio Hale (1870)(1883), the Rev. Joseph Anderson (1872), Leo Frachtenburg (1907)(1913), and Edward Sapir (1911)(1913) the closest Sioun to Tutelo (saponi dialect) is Dakota and maybe hidatsa. In a macro view of migration, this lends to the idea of a very early prehistory in the ohio valley region. ( side note: cahokia is thought to have been Dakota linguistically) from there, migration carried the proto group out at different points into different directions.

This is really an interesting thread :)