SE Blackfoot in Southern Illinois??

[Linda]

The following posts were made to the yahoogroup "The Other Blackfoot" By permission I am publishing here.

[Red Hawk]

Hi all My name is John Poundstone and having traded a few emails with Linda Cater from the room here I thought I would come and join in and see whats history we can find for all of us Indians stuck here in the 21st century. My family is Shawnee/Blackfeet/Cherokee(on the silly rolls). My Grandmother was full blood, but of mixed tribes, which never made us much welcome anywhere either. We were the only indentified Indians in our community in Southern Indiana (what a joke INDIANA! land of Indians) Ok I'll save the bitter jokes for later.

One part of my heritage is diffinitively Lakota from my Great Grandfather, but My Great Grandmother also had Backfeet/Blackfoot Souix. She was from Southern Illinois and there is a still surviving remnant there of this Blackfeet/Blackfoot community. Does anyone here have relatives there? Is there a possibility that this group is eastern Blackfoot? They arrived there around 1813-14 just after Tecumseh's war and many of the arrivals were warriors for his united tribe. I would appreciate any and all input to this....to Email me directly send to: hawkheart07@aol.com
Thanks and Paselo(Take care)

[Linda]

They are sounding more like Eastern, Saponi Blackfoot if their arrival in Illinois coincides with Tecumseh's war. It could also make them the last known warriors of that Nation. I know there were still some braves who journeyed from NC to Canada to fight with Joseph Brandt against the Americans in the Revolution. Saponi/Tutelo people are known to have been with the refugee tribes in Ohio, under allegiance to the Iroquois league. There are those who broke from this and joined with the Shawnee/Delaware.

I'd like to know more about this community of descendants in southern Illinois.

[Red Hawk]

The range of the Blackfoot/Blackfeet which my famly knew as their community stretched from Shelby co. straight south through jefferson Co. and the east two counties to Edwards co. and then back north to Coles co. In this same area is a large group of resettled Cherokee, mostly old settlers from the 1817 agreement. A incredible genealogist and local historian from the area died this year, but he has left his entire historical library to the Effingham Genealogocal society. He had documented every Indian cummunity in this region. I and dying to get a chance to read his notes whic will be transfered some time in the next 2 months to them. He gave many lectures about these communities and always wowed his audience with his thoroughness and the sheer number of Indian settlements in this area which had been stripped of its native history.

Part of my Family in the area is Cherokee (all the correct silly rolls numbers and all), a few members of the family even show up in some of the contemporary histories of the trail of tears. Some of these "Old Settlers" joined the trail and went farther into exile while some stayed and helped the weary with rest camps while they were in Illinois. It is likely that some escaped the trail and as some who were on the trail were Also Saponi I would assume that some Blackfoot managed to come to Illinois by this route also.

[Red Hawk]

As to the possibilities of there being Warriors of the Saponi/Tutelo with Tecumseh, that must be true. There are histories which tell of his attempts to raise the southern tribes for the fight and his general failure there, but there is also notations of small independent bands coming to join despite the wishes of elders, along with remnant groups who having lost all else turned to Tecumseh for a last stand against the white tide.

As for my family being Blackfoot eastern tribe I am unsure and would very much like to find other close members of my own comunnity who can remember some of our oral tradition. Mine is some what confused as I have Lakota from my Great Grandfather Pritchard who was descended from Shawnee(or Blackfoot?)half bloods in WVA Upsur co. and 2 generations of Lakota and related groups in SD, WY and MT. In addition My Great Grandmother was Half Shawnee, 1/4 Chrokee and 1/4 Blackfeet Souix(Blackfoot?). There lies the question but much of our oral history is muddled by the mixing of other tribal history from the other branches. Little Star was my Great Grandmothers Grandmother In So. Illinois. She was purported to me the daughter of a war leader or chief but her fathers name is lost to us. There maybe a way to trace this through the research of the late historian from Effingham co. or though oral traditions of some of the other families from the area. If anyone has any tibits..please let me know!

The warriors of Tecumseh stayed with the families who had come to join his new United Tribe as they were sworn to protect the women and children and should never abandon them even as the war was lost. That is part of our oral tradition and a reason why we still try and protect some of the land there. Part of the reason for the seizure of the land in Illinois is the oil which lay underneath. Millions of barrels have been pumped out from under all of the land there and uncounted acres stolen by the most crass methods.

Also a story which is important to note is that of the removal of the Miami. This was done mostly one night when soldiers, lacking any official US gov authority came and at rifle point took nearly the entire Miami population away at gun point, loaded onto flatboats and sent to MO then KS. The Blackfeet/Blackfoot who were there avoided this fate by pointing out to the soldiers that they were Blackfeet Souix and not listed for removal in the order. Most of the Cherokee in the area had citizenship papers which were their reward for service to the US or as a reward for their voluntary removal from the Carolinas.

These make up the largest part of the Indian community in So. Illinois, there are mostly assimilated but Indian By Blood. They can't take that away, even if they can lie to us about it and bribe the nations with gov handouts to try and continue the paper genocide which is meant to abolish our existence.

Also The Blackfeet Souix (Sihasapa Lakota) link is pretty strong too. The Lakota tribe has an oral history that they sent Sihasapa (Blackfeet) warriors, the best trackers on the plains, to join Tecumseh. These came with 2 Dakota war chiefs (One was named Chief Six) and their Dakota and Sauk and Fox warriors. None of these Sihasapa warriors ever returned to their home villages are were given up for dead, but no tale was every told of their defeat and deaths.

The Lakota historian Bronco LeBeau agrees with me that these may be the same ones in So Illinois, as they too would have thought it dishonourable to leave the villages unprotected after the loss of the war. If this was true would the eastern Souian speaking people have settled near or among the western in IL? Language bonds to them were nearly unbreakable and the western Souix had a tradition of lost kin left in the far east.

The Western tribes are at this moment working with tribes country wide to create a "name place map" using all of the know Indian names for things and places through out the country. They hope to use this to debunk the Univesity PHD attempts to limit and reduce the the spread and history of our people. More on that at another time too...

[Linda]

If there is oral history from the Sioux of sending Sihisapa warriors, then that gives a lot of weight to them being the ones in your family. To my understanding, the word "Sioux" is not a name used in the east. It wasn't until linguists came along in the late 19th century, and realized the languages were related that they came to be called Siouan, long after they'd been disrupted, so someone in 19th century Illinois calling him/herself Blackfoot Sioux, combined with the info that Sihisapa were sent there, probably tells the story.

I am very interested to hear which bands of the Sioux have tales of relatives far to the east. I've met at least one Lakota person who was very adamant there's no such thing as Eastern Siouan, since the Sioux people never leave anyone behind. I know there are Sioux bands that would dispute this. I'd be interested in knowing more about this.

The Tutelo language was similar to the Dakota, though I'm not sure if they'd be mutually intelligible.

[Red Hawk]

The Souix linkage with my Illinois line is fairly firm, but as I have two lines where this occurred (a husband/wife) the naming of Souix may still be a cross over. What makes it firmer is the other families there which also use the Souix name. But this in only one lineage of many in my family. The same line which marries into two generations of Lakota in SD/WY came from the top of the Blue Ridge in WVA. They had been living in mixed Indian villages there for 4 generations. Do you have any information on the Blackfoot/Saponi groups living there? My relatives lived on settlements reaching from the Little Kanawha, to French Creek to the Monongalia headwaters. This was a line of Pritchards who married into Indian families for the first two generations after they came from Wales in 1624. They moved up into western VA around 1760. Once there they married into two more Indian families and a third as a second marraige-a Delware woman, no childern in late life marriage. This man Joseph pritchard moved with his Delaware wife, her children grown children and his own to Indiana in the 1850's. Then the one son (my ancestor) moves to join cousins in SD before 1860. the family had been apperating as traders with in the Indian communities in WVA and in SD for many years. Any info on these communities in WVA?

I have the line in my family of Poundstone from Mecklenberg TN/Monongalia WVA and PA also. John Poundstone move to WVA with brother Phillip and then on to Whitewater Village before 1808. After Tecumsehs war he settled in what would become Northern Rush co. This was a mixed Miami/Shawnee/Delaware and I am now learning Saponi area. I have been unable to find John's wife, but records indicate she was not white and was a refugee...so Saponi heritage seems quite possible. If she was Shawnee I should know and the same for Delaware. John's son marries a Catharine Burch/Birch who lives in Fayette co. just east of Rush co. Her parents were from NC and again of colored/Indian decent from one census. I had earlier assumed Cherokee but they were seperate from other known Cherokee I have found there. It seems very likely that there were Saponi Blackfoot living in this refugee settlement and that they came into close contact with people like John Poundstone who came to fight for Tecumseh. The possibility that records may exist from Brandts villages is hopeful to me in tracing some of these warriors.

The idea of Eastern Souian peoples is a hard one for many western Dakota/Nakota/Lakota. The first problem is their dislike of the word Sioux. It is a short version of the Ojibwe' or Chippewa slur meaning "little dangerous snakes". So when they whole language connection is brougfht up they freeze mentally. But despite this they are finding many similiar name places and old stories which show this connection.

In their oldest stories they talk about the times when they lived east of the Mississippi and how most of the tribal groups migrated to the western plains, hills and the deep forests of Minnesota. The Portage des Souix near what is now the north suburbs of St Louis was used by them for centuries according to the last Souix living in that area in the late 1800's. They claim that they had regular contact with eastern "friendly" communities who spoke a strange dialeck of their own tongue. They claimed regular visits all the way to the eastern mountains. This group there must have been the various Saponi peoples. I'll try and remember more but there is some of the history.

Has anyone been able to find Saponi name places in So IL? There are some rather strange city names like Oskaloosa, Shattuc, Wynoose, Wamac, Owaneco,and many others. These names come from later times when refugee communities came to the area. The early names from the Illinois confederation were alsomt all in French as the French were the dominant force there before 1795. This leaves a possibility that some name place in So. IL could be linked by language to a Saponi settlement. There are likely 4 or more language groups represented in the area so one needs a background in Saponi Language to find the similarites here.

[Linda]

One of the first clues I got about my heritage was information about a roadside marker which once stood in Elkins, WV about the "Blackfoot of the Seneca." I now believe these were Saponi/Tutelo refugees who are documented to have been among the Indians tributary to the Seneca in PA and OH. As that confederation fell apart, many of these groups took to the mountains. Thomas McElwain, the language informant at Mingo-EGADs, still speaks a dialect of the Seneca language that was spoken until the fifties in Elkins. He tells me virtually everyone in the small town of Parsons, WV, just up the road from Elkins, is Blackfoot. There are many other spots in
WV with communities of people with this ID handed down.

Thanks for your info, it says a lot. Are you saying that your sense of it is that your Sihisapa relations recognized a commonality with their eastern Blackfoot relations? I have a hunch that the Blackfoot ID is very ancient and goes back to the time before the Siouan people split east and west.

Let me know if you get access to Brandt's records. The story in our family
was that we were "related to a Blackfoot chief." One of the family names at
that point was Harris. They were living along the Tuscarora Path in
Chambersburg, PA. There are some records in Washington DC taken from an
interview of John Buck, one of the last full blooded Tutelo at Six Nations
who remembered that there was a Chief Harris who came up from NC with 20
warriors to fight with Joseph Brandt against the Americans during the
RevWar. They would have taken that route via the Tuscarora Path.

I've also heard lately from an individual who said he's seen records, he believes it was in the records of the London Company in VA, of an explorer who found the Sissipaha on the Dan River, VA, calling them the "Blackfoot of the Dan." They were decimated by the Yamasee, who sold them as slaves to Barbados, the survivors fled to the Occaneechi. I realize now that there are too many doubters regarding the eastern Blackfoot connection for me to put this forward as fact until I can refer people to the actual citations, but it is something I could use help in looking for so I will mention it.

[Red Hawk]

Did I mention the the Poundstone family originated in Mecklenberg...which Mecklenberg (including the co. in VA) is the question. Richard Poundstone the oldest we know of with certainty is said to have been born there and a possible sister settled in the Brunswick VA.

I will go thru my Pritchard and Poundstoen lines toady and find the settlements and areas in WVA where they lived for comparison also.

The words for Blackfeet/Blackfoot from the eastern and western languages are too close for two speakers coming from different directions not to recognise the other as related. Their lore was much deeper than anything we now retain. It would be a strech for them NOT to see the other as a lost relative.

[Linda]

Mecklenburg, VA??? Whoa, now you're getting into ground zero. That's where Occoneechi Island was, where the VA/NC Siouan nations were defeated in 1673 by Bacon and his vigilantes. My husband's family has lived there at least as far as historical records go, and is full of known NDN surnames.

Brunswick County is the same. That's where Fort Christanna was, the last place all the VA/NC Siouan people were all together before the Diaspora.

His mother's family has lived within the boundaries of the old reservation for at least as long as the historical records go. That family was so NDN, they stood guard on either end of their road on Saturday night and didn't allow white or black men entrance, keeping them away from their women, to "keep the blood strong."

If brother was in Mecklenburg and sister was in Brunswick, then it's logical to be Virginia, since those two counties are contiguous in VA.

What, in your opinion, is the Eastern Siouan word for Blackfoot?

[Linda]

BTW, the name Pritchard is listed on the "Southeastern American Indian Family Surnames" list as Saponi.

[Red Hawk]

The Virgina connection is a real possibility I think but I can't ignore mecklenberg TN where the Shawnee lived at the same time. Thats why I'm hoping to find common names between families and see what fits best. The same line claims Seneca/Shawnee heritage after the arrive in western PA, Monogalia valley. Part of the line, a lateral part returns to northern and central WVA starting in 1800 or so. This line continues there and moves thru OH, and IN marrying repeatedly in Indian families. Now If I can just find Poundstones first family root!

As far as the eastern Souian name for Blackfoot, I've heard others here use Sissapasha? which is nearly identical except in internal word order to Sihasapa which is the Lakota word...meaning Those with black moccasins..shoes..feet. Are there other possible names?

[Linda]

I feel that's what it means, and others too see that in the name, and as I said earlier, I'm hunting down some historical documentation that would pretty much prove it. The Tutelo (which may or may not be definitive, since the Sissipaha people were close to, but not actually Tutelo) words via Hale are 'isi asepa,' foot black. I can see Sissipaha being a corruption of that. It could also mean foot hill. Hopefully, we shall see.

[Red Hawk]

There are two western Blackfoot/Blackfeet groups....nonrelated. One is the Blackfoot Tribe Blackfoot/Piegan/Blood sub groups) of MT and Canada and then there is the Blackfeet Souix/Sihasapa Teton Lakota of
the Blackhills SD (old range west to the Teton Mountains). The second group here in located at the Cheyenne River reservation and that is the name where you will find their web site. I have had a few discussions with their tribal historian Bronce LeBeau to help explain the Blackfeet Souix in IL, but we haven't been able to find person to person trace back to the tribe. They have no records back that far so we can only compare oral histories.

[Red Hawk]

There is certainly a tendancy for the Welsh to marry freely with Indian communities, why is another question. In my case Thomas Pritchard worked for the Virgina Company and came twice before settling in Jamestown(1620,1624). On the second trip he stayed and married a woman from outside the english settlement...which means an Indian, as do his son. Then the family marries into the line of an indentured servant and then again back into Indian lines before they move off to the mountains, more Indian amrriages follow.

The Poundstone line living in PA claims to be from Mecklenberg Germany, but each piece of their history has proven false (persons not on ships registries,no one with that name every noted as leaving Germany before 1855,fictitious later records which disagree with early offical records). A very touchy subject...but they have constructed a genealogy which covers the Indian root of the family. This is extremely common, and early Indian/christian converts did so very very often. Everytime I discuss this within the family I get new converts to the non-german side and more and more stories of Indians known in the family. Indian genealoogists from the Shawnee tribe will tell you that the majority of the Penn Dutch or Black Dutch were Moravian Indian converts and the have good records of their villages to prove it. But they don't share the name lists outside the tribe. :-( I wish there was more openness in the modern tribal community!

[Tom]

Hello All, well this is very interesting, the Indiana connexion is too cool, how many of us have had our families in that state, certainly mine!
Our family history is Blackfoot Cherokee, I have only tracked one line in the family but many others look as though they have been in that state for many generations.
If the old warriors from the Sixsapaha from NC/VA, were there as early as 1815 then it holds true for other folks in the south to travel there in the 1860 to call that state home., also the news on Dorsey and Gatschet is very interesting, the many dialects of souix all contain commonalities so Iam sure that we can find a very close sounding living dialect close to our Tutelo ancestors.
There will be dialect differences but if we ask for a linguists help we might get very close to how it should sound, also I'd ask if anyone in Ontario still knows a few word.
For some reason, I believe that the name of the last know speaker of Tutelo was "North Wind" has anyone seen this?
Red Hawk, thanks very much for the postings.
BTA, Tom

[Linda]

I heard the other day from someone at Six Nations that there are still Tutelo speakers up there.

Geez, my fibro fog has been bad (bad short term memory, symptom of fibrmyalgia). I hardly remember any of this thread from last May. I sure must sound stupid sometimes.

[Bess]

My line does not go through this part of Illinois or Indiana. I don't have anymore information on the Blackfoot Cemetery or the Blackfoot Church in Pike County, IN. I just came across this site only a few days ago. Presently, my time limitations won't allow me to devote anymore efforts in this area for awhile. I'm sure, others on this list can pursue this lead and dig up more by going to the Pike County, IN. USGENWEB site. The Blackfoot cometary in Monroe Twp. is listed there.
I want to clarify another point. I am not making contributions to this list for the purpose of making a summary presentation down the road on the general subject of the Eastern Blackfoot. Nor am I providing information for others to make a general presentation on the Eastern Blackfoot. My main purpose is to aid individuals on the list in finding material (genealogical and historical) to narrow down the sphere of investigation, to aid in backing up their oral claims of native ancestry in the Southeast,in general and Eastern Siouan, in particular. Even though there is some documentation on the Veney line, I also seek the same assistance for myself from the list.
On reviewing one of the previous posts, there seems to be a little confusion about the content of my statement on the relation of the Tutelo at Prophets'town to those people claiming Blackfoot ancestry living in Southern Illinois, who self identify as the "Southern Illinois Blackfoot". Let me restate my point, with a few additional facts, to undo any confusions.
In my earlier note I concluded that "the Tutelo at Prophets' town may indeed be the source of some of the ‘Blackfoot of Southern Illinois' that have been mentioned on the list". And I went on to say " ..it is possible that some of the Tutelo at Prophets town migrated to Illinois after the attack on Prophets town in 1811 and or after the defeat of Tecumseh's forces at the Thames in 1813". This statement is straightforward. Note the stress on the work "some". Which implied that other claims of Blackfoot from that quarter my have a different tribal root. There was no suggestion that all claims of Blackfoot identity in Southern Illinois had to be traceable to the Tutelo. Rather, I said some may be and left the door open to other sources should new evidence arise. This position is quite valid when one considers the following:
First, the Tutelo at Prophets'town were relatively close to Southern Illinois (with in 100 miles). This is further supported by the fact that the area of Southern Illinois with which we are discussing is integrated firmly with the area around Prophets' town by a common waterway. Such waterways were the typical mode of transport at that time and greatly facilitated such movement Both areas are a part of the Wabash drainage system--Prophets'town sat on the Wabash River and Southeast Illinois was bisected by the Little Wabash River, which emptied into the Wabash down stream.
Second, Two of the most significant tribes at Prophets town, the Kickapoo and the Winnebago both had villages in the region of what became Effingham and Coles Counties, Ill., before and after the battles at Prophets'town.( 1811-13). It is said by local historians that many of the warriors at Prophets' town returned to their established villages in the outlying areas, located in the parries and woodlands of Illinois and other parts of Indiana after the suppression of Prophets' town. Therefore, one can easily imagine, some of the Tutelo returning with fellow fighters of these other tribes to Southern Illinois, etc. Given that the Winnebagos were the only other Siouans at Prophets'stown, most likely Tutelos, stayed close to them. According to William Henry Perrin, the editor of "the History of Effingham County Illinois" (.Baskin Historical Publisher, Chicago 1883), the Kickapoo lived in effingham and surrounding counties. He also noted, "South of the Kickapoos were the Winnebagoes and Delawares.", page12.

Consequently, I stand by my original conclusion. I am aware that there is some oral history that says Sihasapa warriors (from the Dacota) came East and were possibly the ancestors of present community of Blackfoot in Southern Illinois. Well good. That does not contradict my statement, since my conclusion recognizes that possibility alongside the Tutelo. If I find some documents supporting the movement of the Sihasapa I will gladly make that known. And of course, the same applies to the Siksika (the Algonquin Blackfeet). But of the various possibilities on hand, the Tutelo stand on the firmest ground at the present time. Without question the document above from the American Anthropologist affirming the presence of Tutelo at Prophets'town establishes the Tutelo at the right place, at the right time to be the ancestors of some "Blackfoot indians" in Southern Illinois.
Bess.

[Linda]

I like the way you've argued that. Thank you.

There's just one technical problem. It belongs on the other thread. (hehe.) Do you want me to move it, or do you want to? I got confused too. I started reading this one, thinking it was the thread we were talking on the other day and I thought I was going senile, since I could scarcely remember saying any of that stuff. But it's from May, so I guess that's not too bad.

You gotta watch that Tom. He's a sly one. He likes slipping in those little curves. hahaha. Good one, Tom.

In all seriousness, though, I need to caution you, the theory that the Blackfoot ID is a marker for Eastern Siouan of the NC/VA Piedmont is a theory held by me and maybe half a dozen other researchers. There are others who don't hold with it at all. You're building a good academic argument which refers to our theory, which of course I'm happy to see, but it makes me nervous, in a way, that I'm just hearing my own theories re-echoed in a loop. So, I have to find out if it is an echo, or if somebody has reached the same theory from another angle. Either way it's fine, but I needed to know which it is.

[Tom]

Hello All, well ofcourse there are other tribes called Blackfeet etc, and probably there is some blood from the Dakotas there, aswell I have heard that there was a Blackfoot woman from Montana that married in the 1840-50s to a white guy had lived in a trading post with many of her children, no doubt her family is still there but Iam not sure what state it was in, could have Illinois!.
The word Sioux is a French term that has been aaround since probably the late 1600s when they started colonizing the lower Red River valley in Manitoba, Canada, it could even be a Metis , (Michif) word.
If you look at this material and put it into historical context and then overlap later history it totally makes sence that there would be a move from NC/VA into this area, I would suggest to ask the Blackfoot of Southern Illinois where their oral history points too!
I live in Blackfoot country here in Canada, and we do have some Sioux from Sitting Bulls band here aswell Iam familiar with them..
I statred looking at my families history early, for me when I was about 16, we had many old people in the family,when I talked to them the oral history was the same,I came across this Blackfoot-Cherokee with my aunts and cousins, tracing the family back into NC and looking at the nearest people behind the Cherokee where the Tutelos and others w/ unfamiliar sounding names except one Sissipaha, eastern Souix, the first part of the word clearly to a Siksika or Kainaiwa person means black, I thought that perhaps because ther was algonquins in VA, this may have had some bearing, then my Moms 1st cousin said to look near Hertford County? Nc since he thought that it was still closer.
After some time in GA with a linguist we began talking about the NC groups, Sissipaha came up and we tried to start translating the names of these tribes at this time I started looking into the Blackfoot Cherokee connexion with a friend Pete Gregory an Anth. Prof from LA, over time many other people started coming forward with this same ID.
Then I put Blackfoot Cherokee into the web and came up with the angel fire crap and was really irked at that, I kept looking and found this sight!
Do the math! Everything points to your work Linda, I think that we are all here because of simailar work and not because we think this is right we know its right.
One can only circle ground zero before you come in for a landing.
For what it's worth, old trails always lead home, there are still Sixsapaha people out there looking and will in time show up, I hope that they have done thier home work and know that Saponi Town offers atleast a new direction in their search for the truth.
Best To All Tom.

[vance hawkins]

howdy Tom --

I agree 100% -- there are a lot of really weird Cherokee websites and it sometimes turns my stomach, so I know what you are talking about when you say "angel fire crap". Altho I am not farmiliar with that website, I have seen the concept all too often. My first couple of years of researching my ancestry I waded through a lot of that crap and I eventually exploded, and called all those groups fakery and quackery. I found websites sayin' Cherokees were the lost 10 tribes of Israel, and groups that let you join their "tribe" without any documentation at all. Still others let you join for 30 dollars, et cetera, i could go on and on . . .

I had to become very skeptical for a while, and maybe I went too far into skepticism, and this web site and Linda & others have helped me over come this. But I am still comin' out of it.

I wanna applaud Linda & others here, because I think they are sifting through the nonsense and trying to get to the truth, with a "ballanced" view, knowin' some things ARE true, and some are bogus, and getting their facts documented, not just heresay. What is bein' said here makes sense from the stand point of my family history. I can not prove it to be true and I must say that, but evidence is better than no evidence, and Linda has and/or is gathering quite a lot of that it seems.

vance

[Linda]

Thank you very much for your appreciative words. They mean a lot to me. Ironically, I've been feeling the opposite lately, that I'm not really unbiased. I can't be anymore, all this has evolved into what I believe, not just what I think, and I know from a thousand examples out there, that you see what you believe. There is no such thing as objective, factual proof. If you expect a quark to go right, it will go right, if you expect it to go left, it will go left. (A quark is a subatomic particle studied by quantum physicists.)

And then there's all the Genealogy from the X files that keeps showing up in my inbox anytime it pleases. For example, about three or four times in the past year people have written me about the same surnames and locations, but they don't know each other. They're considered different "races." They live in opposite corners of the country and know nothing about each other, but they both write me out of the blue, in the same week.

If you put the hard data about them down on paper, it doesn't say anything conclusive, but when you're the one it's coming to in such a striking way, it's captivating.

I would like very much to be able to document all this in a way that would be persuasive, to even the most skeptical, but it's so hard. Especially in a situation like this where there's a big pile of circumstantials making the case. All those little bits need their citations in order, their references verifiable. It takes more than spare time to accomplish.

[Tom]

Hey all, Anisnabe is the Ojibway term for themselves.
it looks as though we are trying to prove what we know, any good science has to be able to with stand scrutiny and I know that my family can, we know who we are and where we came from, as does most others on this forum, that initself is all the strength that we need, I won't get into it other than to say as a first nations artist Iam secure in who Iam! all the best Tom

[Linda]

Yes, Anishnabe is what the Ojibway call themselves. It means "original men." http://www.tolatsga.org/ojib.html They are Algonquin.

Maybe your friend was pulling your leg.

[Bess]

Redhawk
There is a lot of good material in your answer. It will take me some time to digest it all. So I will be asking many questions over the next months and making additional comments.

I share your assessment of the political meaning of Tecumseh's movement, but you have provided us with a much more concrete and lively expression of it than I have been familiar with. You have a good grip on the local situation which you obtained from the stories handed down from your ancestors and coupled this well with your historical research. The strength of this assessment is the recognition of the sharp contradiction between the oppressed and the oppressor, between the merchant capitalist ( traders, settlers etc.) and our native ancestors that could not but end in fierce resistance. This situation drove our ancestors to take the noble and progressive stand they did. Our knowledge of this struggle always gives us strength today to advance our current struggle against the monopoly capitalist who continue the humiliation and oppression of native Americans.

I agree with your overall position on the insolvent of the Dakota and the Lakota Sihassapa in Tecumseh's movement based on your oral history and the oral traditions of Dakota researchers out west. I only emphasized the Tutelo connection in my previous comments because it is this group which is overlooked and ignored when talking about Prophets'town and the war of 1812. It fact I have seen a documented reference to Tecumseh's visit to the Osage Indians (Siouan) in the Missouri Valley (1808-09) in which he tried to get them to send warriors to Prophets'town. Since Tecumseh was already in the area of the western Siouan tribes, it is only reasonable to assume that he extended his trip further North to the Dakota and Lakota to solicit their participation. Even in the absence of written accounts( at this point), your oral traditions are what are decisive in this case, especially since this tradition has been established in an organized way for nearly a century, with many people contributing. As to some of the specific forms and character of the interaction between the Tutelo and the western Dakotas and Lakotas at Tippecanoe, I reserve judgement until further investigation.

How has the family history gone? Have you had any results in tracing your lines and that of other members of your "Blackfoot community" into the Tippecanoe region of Indiana? On the basis of your previous comments, identifying several surnames, I did a limited search. I was able to locate CLIMER/ CLYMER, BURNETT and CARY surnames in a few Tippecanoe County, IN records( 1820s). Found also is an important lead on a Burnett family in Tippecanoe county that played an important role in the events around Prophets'town. This family is documented as being Native American in one of its lines descending from the Pottawattiamie tribe. These results suggest that persons with these surnames at Tippecanoe could well have been the specific lines of the ancestors of the community of Blackfoot in southern Illinois. Of course only a more thorough examination of these records can reveal if this connection is sound. Could you restate the surnames that you are looking for (Illinois blackfoot) so that I and others can be sure we are not overlooking some.

Thanks for giving a narrower description of the location of the Miami Reserve along the Wabash River. It is now possible to study more carefully any link ups with contemporary (1812-13) or later movements of the Eastern blackfoot to your area. In fact, documents show that some Saponi/Tutelo/Nottoway mixed families left NC/VA between 1810-1850 and ended up in the immediate vicinity of this Miami Reserve. They came to Vigo, Sullivan, and Vermillion Counties, Indiana. Some of their surnames were BASS, NEWSOME, ARTIS, HAITHCOCK (HAISCOX), STEWART, COUZEN, BEATY, WILSON, RILEY, PATTERSON, RUSSELL and LEWIS. Have you ever come across these names in the Miami Reserve? Are Vigo, Sullivan, and Vermillion counties bordering the Wabash River in Indiana within or adjacent to this Miami Reserve? Does this Miami Reserve encompass the same land spoken of in the recent suite (Sept 2,000) filed by the Miami Tribe of Oklahoma in St. Louis District Court, demanding a return of this land to their control? Could this suite be a source of genealogical information for families we are discussing?

Given the closeness in time and place one only hopes that we, eventually, are be able to find some documents that tie in these families-- Bass, Newsome, Haithcock,--with some of your lines in Illinois.


Thanks Bess.

[vance hawkins]

1. I'd like to know more about Tecumseh and the people who were with him. Now that I know my ancestors were there at the same time tecumseh was, and now knowing there is a "Blackfoot Church" in a neighboring county and it says the Church were named for a local tribe of Indians, and knowing that church was there at the time of Tecumseh (wasn't it?), and being told there was a "Richey" in the cemetary of that church -- well

2. Now to address another point. Someone asked if Indian people who were in the East and were considered "more civilized" got along with their fronteir counterparts.

My answer is "maybe" and "maybe not". The U. S. government might have used the "Civilized" peoples to track and hunt down their "Wilder" relations. The government was always trying to pit one tribe against another. The one doing the tracking always thought the government would then treat them better, andthis the U. S. government almost always promised and then reniged on that promise.

But livin so near to Tecumseh you'd think they were allies, since it was his policy to unite and not divide the tribes. But I'd prefer proof if I can find it, trouble is there may be no way to prove or disprove something like that.

well, I am more interested in Tecumseh than I was before. Got my attention! http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif

vance

[Linda]

This "civilized" thing was used both ways. There is an elusive reference I heard quoted but haven't tracked down. It speaks of a Tutelo woman being married to one of the head men administering the Indian territory in PA during the time it was controlled by the League of the Iroquois. It was theorized that the Tutelo, having been exposed to the British and not only able to speak English, but some even literate (remember Griffith's school in 1713) were valuable for diplomacy purposes for this reason.

What I've seen in my family is that this exposure to western ways meant acquiring crafts or skills that enabled them to make a living on that side of the line, and since the line had long since gone on over them, that was pretty handy.

[vance hawkins]

Hi Linda,

can you tell more about "Griffith's School" in 1713? I am not farmiliar with it. I recall someone mentioning the surname "Griffin", but not "Griffith".

One of my Waylands married a "Griffith". Other Waylands (more than one) married my Richey's. I know nothing of these Griffith folk, but as I said in another post, 2 children of this marriage (Griffith/Wayland)are mentioned in the Swetland Rolls of Cherokee as living with a "Brown" surnamed Cherokee family.

I have never researched the Griffith surname, and I suspect strongly they were NOT Cherokee as those surnames (Griffith & Wayland) are not common amongst the Cherokee and we are certain they did not live in the Cherokee Nation East from other sources, so they were from some other tribe & were "adopted" I guess into the Cherokee on the Swetland Roll of 1869.

thanks,

vance

[rosebudsaponi]

Vance,
Charles Griffeth was the instructor hired by the College of William and Mary to teach the children of Ft. Christanna. The program was called the Brafferton Institute. There's not too many records on the school as everything was burned in a fire during the late 1700's I believe was the date. Anyway, there was another Charles Griffeth that taught the Tuscarora also. Has us curious as to whether it's the same or not. There's really not much to tell other than that. Not a whole lot to go on. I would almost bet my life on the fact that he probably had a few children with the women of the fort. I'll dig through what I have and see what I can come up with.

[vance hawkins]

thanks --

A Griffith man married a Wayland girl in Arkansas in the 1850s and their 2 kids found their way somehow to the Swetland Rolls of Cherokee of 1869. That Wayland girl was sister to one of my g-g-grandmother's sisters.

Waylands came from SC to Ar 1814 or 1815. I know nothing about the Griffith surnamed male who married the Wayland girl.

That's about as close as I have ever come to finding direct ancestors on any roll. Ha ha.

vance

[Linda]

I'm a little reluctant to say that young Charles was fooling with the ladies. He was a very religious type and may have been too puritanical for that sort of thing. But the record states that he was well loved and that would be reason enough for some to have taken his name when it became necessary for them to do os.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Is the surname you folks posting about Griffin or Griffith or are they the same?

Crystal, found this and it sounds like this line might be connected with Fort Christanna:

http://www.geocities.com/frankoclark/richland/griffin.html

John Griffin's family received a 250 acres grant on the waters of the Congaree (Toms and Griffins Creek area) in the year 1764. These Griffins were part of the large "free-person-of-color" community in Richland County c1790-1850. Were these the "Sandhillers?" John was possibly half Indian, perhaps Cherokee. His wife's father was part Saponi from North Carolina. Absalom GRIFFIN, who lived in Richland c1770, was not listed as a person of color, so he and John may have been a half brothers. Sons were Gideon, Morgan and John. Daughter was Hannah or Johannah.
First Generation:
John2 Griffin (son of Joseph1 and Joyce) was born 08 Oct 1719 in Colonial SC, probably in St. Georges Parish near Charleston. He died 1771 in St. Marks Parish SC, in what later would be Richland County. His first wife was probably (1) (Indian) married about 1740. He later married (2) Agnes about 1747. He married his last wife (3) Mary much later.

[vance hawkins]

The name I am associated with is "Griffith", not Griffin -- sorry. If it were Griffin, well I saw other posts about that surname so I did a double check -- but they were 2 different surnames, and I know nothing about the origin of either.

vance hawkins

[vance hawkins]

in response to Rosebudsaponi --

Thank you. Are you sure that was not Griffin instead of Griffeth? If so, that would be another possible tie in I will need to look into . . . thanks!

vance

[Linda]

Refreshing thread