Tutelo at Prophets'town, Indiana

[Bess]

Tutelos at Prophetstown, Indiana

Prophetstown, Indiana was a multi-tribal village in West Central Indiana from 1808--1811. It was headed by the Shawnee, led by Tecumseh and his brother "the prophet" Tensk-wau- ta-wa. It was located at the junction of the Tippecanoe and Wabash Rivers of what is today Tippecanoe County, Lafayette Indiana. Some of those present were individuals and groups of Pottawatomi, Kickapoos, Shawneee,Wyandottes,Ottawas, Senecas, Winnnebagos,, Miamies, Sacs, Foxes and Chippewas. Some estimate that there were over a thousand warriors with family present. Tecumseh and his brother used the encampment as a means to rally and build a front of warriors from all tribes to resist invasion of the Europeans and the theft of land. The US government strongly opposed the building of such an alliance and attacked the camp in November of 1811 (commonly called "the battle of Tippecanoe"). It was burned and many of those presents were killed. But only a small number were routed from the area.

A very brief historical reference from The American Anthropologist (1892) Vol. 5:52 does shed some clarity on the question--Did Eastern Siouans fight with Tecumseh in 1812? Here is the Quotation:

"It may be of interest to state that Rev. J.O.Dorsey has found in the Indian Bureau at Washington a document of four pages, pretty well faded, which describes a meeting of Winnebago with Tutelo Indians at Prophets'town, close to Tippecanoe, Indiana, in the year 1809. It is stated that the parties were able to understand each other's language. A.S. Gatschet." [Bess-this quote from the American Anthropologist is not online, so one has to get hold of a paper copy at a library]

A.S. Gatschet (1832-1907), who reveals the existence of these records, was a leading linguist working for the Bureau of American Ethnology. J. O. Dorsey was the government's top linguist specializing in Dakotan languages also working in the field of ethnology some years before Gatschet. Therefore this reference shows that:
1. Tutelo/Saponi were with Tecumseh on the side of the British in the war of 1812, since the battle at Prophetstown in Nov. 1811 was the opening phase of that war. The most trustworthy histories indicate that the multi tribal elements defeated at Prophetstown were regrouped by Tecumseh and taken to another theater of war, to Detroit and to Canada It was here that Tecumseh was eventually martyred and his native bands were defeated.
2. The Tutelo at Prophetstown may indeed be the source of some of the "Blackfoot of Southern Illinois" that have been mentioned on this list. This group of Blackfoot are located in the region of Coles, Shelby, Effingham, Layfayete, Jefferson and Edwards counties, Illinois; that is, toward the South East border of Illinois adjacent to Indiana. It turns out that Prophetstown is about 100 miles from Coles County, Illinois. Not very far away. So it is quite possible that some of the Tutelo at Prophetstown migrated to Illinois after the attack on Prophetstown in 1811 and or after the defeat of Tecumseh's forces at the Thames in 1813.
3. Since, according to Gatschet's report, the Winnebago and Tutelo could understand each others' language as late as 1809, despite a significant territorial separation. This strongly confirms that,
a. the ancestors of the Tutelo and Winnabago at Prophetstown must have traveled and visited each other, periodically in pre-European times, in order to maintain the common core features of the Dakotan (Siouan) language shared by both groups.
b. a reexamination and analysis of the Winnebago language might provide some new insights into the development of Tutelo

Bess Veney

[vance hawkins]

well Bess, you keep knonwing/discovering things I am interested in. http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif

John Richey b 1797 Va died 1861 Powhatan, Lawrence County, Arkansas, was married 1817 to Mary (Polly) Wood in Gibson Co., Indiana. Gibson County is near the Southern Tip of Indiana and not far from Illinois or kentucky. All their children were born there, and the whole bunch of them then moved first to Strawberry township and later to Powhatan, Lawrence County, Arkansas.

We know somewhere between 1797 (when John was born as stated on his census) and 1817 (where it is recorded John and Mary were married) they moved to Indiana, and 1844-1845 moved to Arkansas. But we don't know exactly when they left Virginia for Indiana.

vance hawkins

[Bess]

Gibson county Indiana is extremely close to the place where the "Blackfoot of Illinois" are said to reside. The western border of Gibson is on the Wabash River. On the other side of that river is Edwards and Wabash counties of Illinois, which according to Redhawk on this list, are within the territory of the "Blackfoot of Illinois". According to the local history of Gibson, when the European settles came to this area, there was a Shawnee village on the Patoka river, which flowed into Wabash river. Also there were Mimi "Indians" (Piankashaws) located in the county. Given its location near the junction of the Wabash, White and Ohio rivers, many other unnamed tribes passed through the county, so when your John Richey came to this area, sometime between 1797-1817, he would have been living among lots of native people. The Tribes did not leave this area until 1834-1840, and some bands were still around after 1850. Bess.

[Linda]

My gr-grandfather, Francis Marion Harris, was born in Wabash County, IL in 1855. His Harris/Severance side had left Path Valley PA sometime before 1840 and showed up in Wabash County in the 1850's. I believe there's some evidence of a stay in Ohio. His mother's side, Ulm/Smith, were from VA and/or WV. They were in Ross County, Ohio ca 1816.

Everywhere the family was, there's some evidence of eastern Blackfoot, but where they appear in the record is always a day late and a dollar short of anything tangible. Aggravating.

Where did this phrase "Blackfoot of Illinois" originate? Is it derived from some old documentation, or is it a modern attribution? Does anybody know?

What's intriguing is the question of whether the mixed blooded, assimilated people were aware of what their full blooded, traditional kin were doing in Tecumseh's camp, or if they'd lost touch that much. What a tense situation.

Anybody else see that old movie, Red Dawn, about the invasion of America by the Communists, how a high school footbal team turns into guerrillas and live in hiding, slipping into the occupied towns to visit/assist friends and family when they can?

How much contact/communication was there between the free people living on the run and the people behind enemy lines, adapting to the occupation? I don't believe my family began denying their mixed blood amongst themselves until the 20th century. There's a hundred year span there where it's very difficult to grasp what their consciouscness was about this.

This heritage has seemed lost in time for modern generations, but what was it like in the 19th century? Or are we imagining too much? Were they just living like none of it mattered? Or is the answer that some were in denial, and some weren't, often under the same roof.

[Bess]

I only learned of the Southern Illinois Blackfoot from this and the Yahoo Blackfoot list. I am not sure if there is any documented account of it. There may or may not be. But the oral accounts that have come to my attention indicates that there are a group of people who claim not only an a individual connection to such ancestors but a group connection located today in southern Illinois. I don't think they are making it up. I have also come across another reference to "Blackfoot Indians" in that region, but this time in Pike County, Indiana which is adjacent to Gibson County mentioned earlier. This reference is more developed, it is expressed in the name of an old cemetery called BLACKFOOT in Monroe twp. and in the name of the church called BLACKFOOT at the same location. The church is alleged to have been erected in the "late1700's". And the "Blackfoot Community" attached to this church was said to be around in 1857. The original members were settlers from Kentucky who were on there way to Illinois. They said they named the church after the "Blackfoot Indians" of that location who befriended them. It is also noteworthy that a Mary Richey (1779-1850- the wife of Simpson Ritchey) is buried in the Blackfoot Cemetery. This family may or not be related to our John Richey. For more on this subject check out this site: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~c1debbi/Mason/blackfootchurch2.htm
Bess

[Linda]

I don't believe anybody's making this up, either, obviously. Sorry if I sounded that way. I'm just trying to pull together concrete documentation. We're to the point where a lot of information has been gleaned, but we need to make it presentable.

Any possibility of getting an accounting of the people first buried in that cemetery. It may tell us something.

There is also the possibility that the Blackfoot in that area were from the Algonquin Blackfoot out west. There is some documentation of warriors coming east to fight in those wars. There is someone from the Yahoo group who I'm hoping will jump into this who has both types of Blackfootin his family, from that region.

Bess, are your ties to this Southern Illinois group?

[Bess]

My line does not go through this part of Illinois or Indiana. I don't have anymore information on the Blackfoot Cemetery or the Blackfoot Church in Pike County, IN. I just came across this site only a few days ago. Presently, my time limitations won't allow me to devote anymore efforts in this area for awhile. I'm sure, others on this list can pursue this lead and dig up more by going to the Pike County, IN. USGENWEB site. The Blackfoot cometary in Monroe Twp. is listed there.
I want to clarify another point. I am not making contributions to this list for the purpose of making a summary presentation down the road on the general subject of the Eastern Blackfoot. Nor aim I providing information for others to make a general presentation on the Eastern Blackfoot. My main purpose is to aid individuals on the list in finding material (genealogical and historical) to narrow down the sphere of investigation, to aid in backing up their oral claims of native ancestry in the Southeast, in general and Eastern Siouan, in particular. Even though their is some documentation on the Veney line, I also seek the same assistance for myself from the list.

On reviewing one of the previous posts, there seams to be a little confusion about the content of my statement on the relation of the Tutelo at Prophets'town to those people claiming Blackfoot ancestry living in Southern Illinois, who self identify as the "Southern Illinois Blackfoot". Let me restate my point, with a few additional facts, to undo any confusions.
In my earlier note I concluded that "the Tutelo at Prophets' town may indeed be the source of some of the ‘Blackfoot of Southern Illinois' that have been mentioned on the list". And I went on to say " ..it is possible that some of the Tutelo at Prophets town migrated to Illinois after the attack on Prophets town in 1811 and or after the defeat of Tecumseh's forces at the Thames in 1813". This statement is straightforward. Note the stress on the work "some". Which implied that other claims of Blackfoot from that quarter my have a different tribal root. There was no suggestion that all claims of Blackfoot identity in Southern Illinois had to be traceable to the Tutelo. Rather, I said some may be and left the door open to other sources should new evidence arise. This position is quite valid when one considers the following:
First, the Tutelo at Prophets'town were relatively close to Southern Illinois (with in 100 miles). This is further supported by the fact that the area of Southern Illinois with which we are discussing is integrated firmly with the area around Prophets' town by a common waterway. Such waterways were the typical mode of transport at that time and greatly facilitated such movement Both areas are a part of the Wabash drainage system--Prophets'town sat on the Wabash River and Southeast Illinois was bisected by the Little Wabash River, which emptied into the Wabash down stream.
Second, Two of the most significant tribes at Prophets town, the Kickapoo and the Winnebago both had villages in the region of what became Effingham and Coles Counties, Ill., before and after the battles at Prophets'town.( 1811-13). It is said by local historians that many of the warriors at Prophets' town returned to their established villages in the outlying areas, located in the parries and woodlands of Illinois and other parts of Indiana after the suppression of Prophets' town. Therefore, one can easily imagine, some of the Tutelo returning with fellow fighters of these other tribes to Southern Illinois, etc. Given that the Winnebagos were the only other Siouans at Prophets'stown, most likely Tutelos, stayed close to them. According to William Henry Perrin, the editor of "the History of Effingham County Illinois" (.Baskin Historical Publisher, Chicago 1883), the Kickapoo lived in effingham and surrounding counties. He also noted, "South of the Kickapoos were the Winnebagoes and Delawares.", page12.

Consequently, I stand by my original conclusion. I am aware that there is some oral history that says Sihasapa warriors (from the Dacota) came East and were possibly the ancestors of present community of Blackfoot in Southern Illinois. Well good. That does not contradict my statement, since my conclusion recognizes that possibility alongside the Tutelo. If I find some documents supporting the movement of the Sihasapa I will gladly make that known. And of course, the same applies to the Siksika (the Algonquin Blackfeet). But of the various possibilities on hand, the Tutelo stand on the firmest ground at the present time. Without question the document above from the American Anthropologist affirming the presence of Tutelo at Prophets'town establishes the Tutelo at the right place, at the right time to be the ancestors of some "Blackfoot indians" in Southern Illinois.
Bess.

[vance hawkins]

Bess, what surnames are you looking for, and where were they living, and during what time frame?

vance

[Poundstone]

As Linda suggested I'm attempting to join this discussion...unfortunately I seem to be somewhat incompetent in doing so. I am known as RedhawkSH07 in the yahoo forum. Oh well, hopefully I will do this reply properly as opposed to my last few attempts. Bess's information is exactly correct from my point of view and knowledge of the region. Tecumseh's United Tribal movement brought refugees and allied tribes together in a way which historians (victorious white historians) have either ignored or purposely covered up. The facts surrounding these villages and settlements which were spread across the Old Northwest territory are just coming to light today after old records and correpondence are being reexamined by interested parties. There has been a concerted effort to deny the existence of Indian communities throughout the region to this day. My belief is that the Tutelos of the East and Blackfeet Sioux who accompanied their brother Dakotas Under Chief Six met at Tippecanoe, rediscovering their shared language and history. Indeed they were able to communicate and find common ground just as the Winnebago and others were able to with the Eastern Siouan speakers. When Tecumseh deployed the allied warriors he kept groups who spoke the same language together for war parties, protecting villages and escorting supplies. This would mean that the bonds first formed by common language would grow. The likelihood that these "reunited" tribal groups would settle with each other and adopt a common name (a name which existed both in the East and Western Sioux ranges in this case Blackfeet), would seem likely. Tecumseh divided his warriors on the basis of skills also. The Dakotas (Santee and Mdewakatons) were sent to Michigan territory for the major battles expected near old Fort Detroit and Amehurst, while groups such as the Blackfeet Sioux(Sihasapa Lakotas), known for their incredible tracking and riding skills, would likely have been detailed for messenger and escort duties. The Eastern Siouian groups would, becuase of the familiarity with white communities, have been detailed as spies and messengers. I would go a step farther in saying that the Eastern Indian groups would have been the core of the supply effort as well. With their eastern base they could buy and move supplies without white communities knowing who they were supplying. The Dakota warriors who came East and fought with Tecumseh, survived in great part and returned home, while the Lakota's (Blackfeet in great part) disappeared from knowledge of their Western relatives. Where did they go? They went with the rest of Tecumseh's refugee families who they had sworn to protect. Many of these retired to the Miami Reserve as it was called by the US Gov. This was an area of 2.7 million acres which included all of the western half of the Wabash water shed. This area in what is now SW Indiana and SE/Central Illinois was not opened to white settlement until 1830. My family was there from 1813 on. Perhaps many of your own were too. In the following 20 years many of the Ohio Shawnee/Delaware/Wyandott/Seneca/Tutelo and others came through this reserve and joined it's communities. Many had been admirers of Tecumseh but did not join him outright even if they secretly supported his efforts. Many were widows and children who had lost their husbands to the war. They moved west hoping to find their family memebers but found instead a growing Indian community structure in Illinois territory. The records I have found at Indiana Univ private collections speak of the fear that the new Indiana residents had when these groups passed through and the fear that they would reorganise under one of Tecumsehs "chiefs" in this territory. One aim of the US Gov agreement with the "Old settlers(1817 agreement)" of the Cherokee was to give land in the "Indian territory of Illinois to Cherokee to dilute this growing threat. The Cherokee would be given US citizenship and 160-640 acres in this Reserve if they gave up they homes, businesses and land in NC/SC/GA. Many came (again part of my family) and became neighbors of the "established tribes". The Piankashaws, Kaskaskia, Kickapoos and other "Origianal tribes" along with the newer refugee communities. These communities accepted these newcomers but would not make agreements with the US Gov on their behalf. This created the mess which the US could not resolve without force. The Treaties would be negotiated over and over with many tribes refusing to give ground even if one had. They all claimed the same overlapping lands. This effort was carefully choreographed by these same tribes to frustrate the US efforts. Tecumseh would have been proud). This continued for 2 decades. The result was the US army coming in the middle of the night and carrying off most of the remaining Indians at rifle point to Kansas and Missouri. Since then offically there were and are no Indians in the region. "Officially". I was born there in 1962 and my family has never left. We still claim to this day a foothold of land in Fayette county IL...but that is another very long story.

[vance hawkins]

Thank you for your participation here. I am learnin a lot from everyone.

I live in SW Oklahoma & we have Kiowa nieghbors. They (Kiowa) claim to have lived in the Black Hills long before the Lakota showed up there on those hills a couple of hundred years or so ago. They (the Kiowa) were booted out of their "Sacred Hills" by the more powerful Lakota about that time. The Kiowa then followed the Buffalo to the Southern Plains where they went and became allies of the Comanche, and the 2 tribes are still inseperable, for the most part. But the first historic records of the Kiowa put them in Southern Canada, so they traveled a lot to get here.

So you are right, the Lakota were originally further East, I'd assumed they were around the Great Lakes, but I really didn't know. But I knew they were latecomers to the Norhtern Plains.

vance hawkins

[Bess]

Redhawk

There is a lot of good material in your answer. It will take me some time to digest it all. So I will be asking many questions over the next months and making additional comments.

I share your assessment of the political meaning of Tecumseh's movement, but you have provided us with a much more concrete and lively expression of it than I have been familiar with. You have a good grip on the local situation which you obtained from the stories handed down from your ancestors and coupled this well with your historical research. The strength of this assessment is the recognition of the sharp contradiction between the oppressed and the oppressor, between the merchant capitalist ( traders, settlers etc.) and our native ancestors that could not but end in fierce resistance. This situation drove our ancestors to take the noble and progressive stand they did. Our knowledge of this struggle always gives us strength today to advance our current struggle against the monopoly capitalist who continue the humiliation and oppression of native Americans.

I agree with your overall position on the insolvent of the Dakota and the Lakota Sihassapa in Tecumseh's movement based on your oral history and the oral traditions of Dakota researchers out west. I only emphasized the Tutelo connection in my previous comments because it is this group which is overlooked and ignored when talking about Prophets'town and the war of 1812. It fact I have seen a documented reference to Tecumseh's visit to the Osage Indians (Siouan) in the Missouri Valley (1808-09) in which he tried to get them to send warriors to Prophets'town. Since Tecumseh was already in the area of the western Siouan tribes, it is only reasonable to assume that he extended his trip further North to the Dakota and Lakota to solicit their participation. Even in the absence of written accounts( at this point), your oral traditions are what are decisive in this case, especially since this tradition has been established in an organized way for nearly a century, with many people contributing. As to some of the specific forms and character of the interaction between the Tutelo and the western Dakotas and Lakotas at Tippecanoe, I reserve judgement until further investigation.

How has the family history gone? Have you had any results in tracing your lines and that of other members of your "Blackfoot community" into the Tippecanoe region of Indiana? On the basis of your previous comments, identifying several surnames, I did a limited search. I was able to locate CLIMER/ CLYMER, BURNETT and CARY surnames in a few Tippecanoe County, IN records( 1820s). Found also is an important lead on a Burnett family in Tippecanoe county that played an important role in the events around Prophets'town. This family is documented as being Native American in one of its lines descending from the Pottawattiamie tribe. These results suggest that persons with these surnames at Tippecanoe could well have been the specific lines of the ancestors of the community of Blackfoot in southern Illinois. Of course only a more thorough examination of these records can reveal if this connection is sound. Could you restate the surnames that you are looking for (Illinois blackfoot) so that I and others can be sure we are not overlooking some.

Thanks for giving a narrower description of the location of the Miami Reserve along the Wabash River. It is now possible to study more carefully any link ups with contemporary (1812-13) or later movements of the Eastern blackfoot to your area. In fact, documents show that some Saponi/Tutelo/Nottoway mixed families left NC/VA between 1810-1850 and ended up in the immediate vicinity of this Miami Reserve. They came to Vigo, Sullivan, and Vermillion Counties, Indiana. Some of their surnames were BASS, NEWSOME, ARTIS, HAITHCOCK (HAISCOX), STEWART, COUZEN, BEATY, WILSON, RILEY, PATTERSON, RUSSELL and LEWIS. Have you ever come across these names in the Miami Reserve? Are Vigo, Sullivan, and Vermillion counties bordering the Wabash River in Indiana within or adjacent to this Miami Reserve? Does this Miami Reserve encompass the same land spoken of in the recent suite (Sept 2,000) filed by the Miami Tribe of Oklahoma in St. Louis District Court, demanding a return of this land to their control? Could this suite be a source of genealogical information for families we are discussing?

Given the closeness in time and place one only hopes that we, eventually, are be able to find some documents that tie in these families-- Bass, Newsome, Haithcock,--with some of your lines in Illinois.


Thanks Bess.

[Linda]

Bringing thread forward

[vance hawkins]

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~c1debbi/Mason/blackfootchurch2.htm

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~c1debbi/Mason/blackfootchurch.htm

http://www.brainygeography.com/features/AR.church/blackfootchurch.html

The Phillips County, Arkansas Blackfoot Church is a new oneI hadn't seen before. I see no other reference to it, either.

vance

[Linda]

Some interesting coincidences of surnames and locations. Allen, Burnett, Kentucky . . .

[techteach]

It is kind of fun to click on the link for Mason when you go to this Blackfoot church web site. I have that name in my line. Someone named Curry (a name in my Blackfoot ancestor's cemetery) posted a plot map there of the families. If you click on it, you find several names we have seen on this forum, Wood, Richey, Green, Mason, Fergusen, and others.

Techteach

[Tom]

For what it's worth some of my family moved into Knox county Indiana during the depression era or earlier, I have not checked it out but I'd say that it was inherited land, Iam checking but Iam not sure what I will find!

[LindyLuu]

Hello...

I'm new on board here. How interesting! I wasn't certain, but I had to retrace where I had heard about the Battle of Tippecanoe and Chief Tecumseh. Not to put a political spin on this, but it would go hand in hand with why the Indians were scattered throughout the U.S., anyway, Dick Gregory mentions this battle and Chief briefly in his book entitled "Callus on My Soul: A Memoir," page 163.

Gregory speaks briefly on the Chief placing a curse on William Henry Harrison, which begun in 1811, as he laid dying in the field in the battle of 1813; and was noted as the "White man's curse." It promised any president elected on a zero year would die in office. The curse pretty much has been true to its word. I'll leave it at that.

So much has been taken from the Indians and so here I am trying to put pieces together to figure out who I am and of what people my blood runs from or is mingled with. I live in Baltimore, Maryland and for the years that my dad was alive, he mentioned that his grandmother, Martina Molock was Blackfoot, and that is all I know.

Without having the actual facts, I would venture to say that I have the percentage of blood to claim my heritage as an Indian, tribe unknown, but without the noted facts, it will lie dormant until I can piece together my bloodline.

The other dead end is my mother's mom Jospehine Holland-Hammond who without the facts, appears to have features of an Indian mixed, perhaps mulatto mixed. My gut feeling says Cherokee. Here again, I at hit a snag and dead end. Would be nice to know the truth. However, the only plus is that I found my mother's real father, Robert Moss, though no DNA to prove, only the Moss square jaw line, three of us, mom included, has the infamous Moss square jaw line. The Moss family hailed from England (if my Fibro Fog memory is right) and landed at Jamestown, VA, and thus began the new life into the Annapolis, MD. by way of the Severn River. So, here we are...

If I can help anyone with info on the Moss family, in what I have in my hands by way of family genealogy facts, I'll try.

[techteach]

Welcome to my little corner of the forum, LindyLuu. I don't have Moss in my line, but I do have DeMoss. They were in Licking County, Ohio with most of the group and follow them to Iowa. One married the brother (possibly half-brother, according to Bill) to my gggrandmother, Mary Lovina Potter. Several are buried in the cemetery with my gggrandmother who was a full-blood Blackfoot. The story in the family is Cherokee, but the locations don't coincide with Cherokee. Some WERE also near yours in MD. I have found a one or two folks in my line near Blackfoot Town.
Anyway, if you bump into a DeMoss in your stuff, pass it my way. I figure it is simply a version of Moss.

Techteach

[LindyLuu]

Thank you for the welcome. I will keep your request in mind on the DeMoss surname. It's been a while since I laid eyes on these papers. I have to step back so I am not overwhelmed by all this. I'll look it over and post what I have.

[vance hawkins]

howdy Linda

My mother was Louise and I have a sister named Linda Louise. Some of Moms relatives used to call her "Louzy". So I'm farmiliar with your name. :)

Recently I made a few posts about the Monacan, with the help of another poster. I'll try to find them again, I think htey are in the History thread on this forum. The Monacan were in Rockbridge and Amherst Counties in Virginia by the 1750s. They had been there originally, but moved around a lot for a cetury or so and then aparently returned there. One principle surname of theirs was "Moss". I'll try and find that. I'd like to know more about Blackfoot Town Maryland, myself.

These Monocan were once called "Buffalo Ridge Cherokee" by an anthropologist even tho they had no connection whatsoever to the Cherokee, and the Cherokee themselves objected to these people being called Cherokee. There were/are a great many groups East of the Mississippi called "Cherokee" who probably have no Cherokee blood at all. The Cheroee have always objected to this practice, and people argue over this on the internet all the time with some arguments more civil than others. The Cherokee have always said those isolated groups in the Southern Appalachions that have been called "Cherokee" are not Cherokee and are probably from other tribes that settled there. The more i look into it the more I think they are right.

To my knowledge, the surnames you mention ar not Cherokee surnames.

The Cherokee are from SW NC, E Tn, NE Al, and NW Ga. There is no reason to suspect Cherokee ancestry unless you can trace an ancestor to this region before 1838. Cherokee were wre a very powerful tribe and were warriors, and during wartime can be found in Ohio and Florida, even Southern Indiana -- but they always returned to their homes and families in NC, Tn, Ga and Al. -- before 1795. Just about veryone who has tried to claim otherwise has been pretty much proven to be in error.

After about 1794 or so some Cherokee did migrate to SE Mo, Central Arkansas and NE Tx, and after 1828 most of these (except the Tx band, most of whom had left Texas by 1843) went to Oklahoma, then called Indian Territory. Most Cherokee in Mo left about 1811 and went to Arkansas. If your ancestors were not in these locations they most likely were not Cherokee, unless they married outside the Cherokee Nation and left the Cherokee Nation.

Vance

[techteach]

Vance,
Thanks for the information. It helps solidify information that I found making me think that at least part of my folks were Monacan. I did not know that Moss was a Monacan name. I just recently found info that placed them where my Greens were. And the info about the Buffalo Ridge Cherokee helps explain the family story. I have heard the Cherokee story from 3 different descendents of the Sinkey/Ralston line who only know one another from online genealogy study. I can trace one name to Rockbridge County, and Stacey helped me find that that group came north from near my Martinsburg, WVA bunch.

Techteach

[lynellarainhawk]

Techteach,

I have truly missed you lady!:) Long time huh? I was reading through this and don't recall ever having pulled it up and read it before. Some how I had missed it.

LindyLuu,

Hey! It's good to see you and have you here! Have you been here long? I've been out.....shopping...yeah, that's it!;)

Tech.,

I'm so glad you are still here. Love & Light, Lynella.

[vance hawkins]

Cindy, Linda Lou --

http://www.monacan-cherokee.com/moss.txt

the above website lists some of the Mosses who are Monacan.

Lynella --

good to hear from you. Many of us feel guilty that ANYONE quit posting -- I hope everyone who left will return.

If it's any consolation, there were 2 ocasions when I quit posting thinking I'd never return -- "never" in this instance turned out to be a temporal anomoly with a finite value . . . so either I changed the definition of "never" -- or I was wrong. :)

vance

[techteach]

L:
I didn't leave, but I may go through spells of no posting. I read but may have nothing to say. Glad you are back.
Vance, thanks for the list. I see a couple of other names that I see several times when looking at my family, Chaney and Smith. The Rickerts come from Pittslyvania County and intermarry with the Cheneys, much to the dismay of her father, but I don't know the reason why. This is the line that my Sinkeys live near and intermarry with in PA and IA.

Techteach

[mrspatino]

Our people in Indiana is kind of a side interest for me, I happen to have a great effection for Tecumseh, especially after my mom "accidentally' drove past it on a family vacation one year and I made her stop (And when I say Accident it was like, Hey mom whats that? stop the CAR! Tippicanoe is litterally in the Middle of miles of Cornfields and there is nothing in site). The Lakotas were in Indiana at one point, and unfortunetly almost anything Indian related in Indiana is marked only by the usual roadside marker. I am not going to give serious detail about it, but there is a Sundance Ceremony there, it did not start based on a whim, it is the land of our Ancestors.

By the way LOL the stat is called INDIAN-A um yea we definetly were there

[techteach]

Christina:
Lots of us on this forum have a tie to Indiana. My Sinkey ancestor from PA had a son who married a Mayfield. They went to Indiana before they made it to Iowa. They lived on the edge of reservations wherever they went.
A story in our family is that a niece of Tecumseh married one of the members of a side line, i.e. she would be some kind of cousin-in-law.

Techteach

[LindyLuu]

(tee-hee) chuckling...I am not sure how and where "LindyLuu" came to be a favorite name I use even for my canning jars: "Fresh from LindyLuu's Garden" (tee-hee)...

Thanks for greeting and info...

If I am not mistaken, there was a Josephine Holland listed as a Cherokee that I found after the fact...I found the info in a LDS site in Roanoke, VA. This could possibly be my Josephine, though I am not for certain. The reason I say so is because the story is that Grandmother Josephine was adopted according to my Mom who gets me all confused about the is "she or isn't she related to Eliza (Aunt Phine), Albert and Alexis," and she can't remember the last Uncle's name. It was either Ellis, Alec or something sounding like that...we don't know where Josephine comes from although her death certificate says Wm. Holland (father) and Josephine Hollins (mother). My Mom said it was all lies told by her brother who couldn't be trusted. The weird thing is there is a Wm. HOlland with mention of a Josephine Holland I believe age 12, so I am stuck with locating anymore info on her...

For those who didn't know, if you have Holland in your genealogy history, there were two Hollands family in Virginia. I'll dig the oral story notes up and post if anyoneis interested in this info. By the way, there was a Moss that married a Holland, my girlfriend's aunt. How weird is that, my friend might be related to me -- amazing stuff!

[LindyLuu]

Vance...

Thanks for that link. I will have to go over it with the Moss Genealogy book that was given to me.

Lynella...
Thanks for the welcome. I am brand spanking new on board here. Found the website while surfing the net for info on Blackfoot Indians. I look forward in getting to know everyone on board here.

[lynellarainhawk]

LindyLuu,

That's how I found the forum too. So many of us are related it's unfathomable!:) Glad you're here. Love & Light, Lynella.

[Brenda Ferrell Sampsel]

Cindy,

For what its worth an ANDREW MASON was on the 1718 tax list for Conestoga Township (PA) shortly after its errection. According to Charles Hanna's WILDERNESS TRAIL, most all the individuals on this tax list were involved with trading with their Indian neighbors.[Vol. 1, p. 162]

A GEORGE MASON petitioned the the Chester County, PA court for a license to trade with the Indians in 1730. [Hanna, Vol 1., p. 179] There is also record that he was liscensed in PA in 1732 & 1737, as well. [Hanna, Vol. II, p. 336]

In 1735 Orange Co. VA Joseph Mounts, who is the Indian trader I am interested in developing more information on, had a suit brought against him by ANN MASON, widow of GEORGE MASON. Morgan Bryant [Bryan], also an Indian Trader, was Joseph's security. Another trader, Edmund Cartlidge, is named in the suit. Joseph Mounts' land, which was later leased in part to Thomas SWEARINGEN, was located in present day Berkley Co., VA, near SCRABBLE. This suit information is from early Orange Co. court records- very dry & sparce of needful details. I am ASSUMING the suit may have been over trade goods/affairs concerning the Mason estate because of who these people were, but don't know for sure. [Joseph moved over to Frederick Co., MD- present day Allegany Co. near OLD TOWN. Of course, Old Town was an important spot for trade and cross-cultural exchange, and on the Warrior's Road Thomas Cresap was located at Old Town, but he really wasn't the first trader therer, despite what his claims may have been. ]. Remember that GIST left from Old Town on his famous reconnoitering trip for the Ohio Company. And by the way, Christopher Gist had a trading post, one of the first, on the Monongahela I believe. ]


In Cecil O'Dell's PIONEERS OF OLD FREDERICK COUNTY, VIRGINIA - very good for untangling some of the Fairfax land knots that make research hard in this area- I find that a THOMAS MASON was living on the east side of OPECHON CREEK abt. 1736. Thomas & wife Elizabeth finally purchased land in 1754 from a Thomas Lowe that was located on MILL CREEK, which is in present day Berkley Co. - near Bunker Hill.
Oh, and a Thomas MASON was taxed in Marlboro Township, Chester Co. PA in 1734.

Cindy, from the little I've been able to read here lately I think some of this information might ring bells for you. I have no way to connect these various MASONS at present, however. If you know of a connection, please let me know :>) , ok?

[techteach]

Brenda:
I will see if I can find the box with my genealogy stuff tomorrow. I tried to keep it separate in the move. I can look in both my copy of "The Green Tree" for the names, and in my mother's copy of the Carpenter genealogy. The Carpenters are my grandfather's people. My uncle has found print evidence that fifth great grandfather married a Tomlinson, daughter of Joseph Tomlinson (who was either one of those involved in the murder of Logan's family or his son). She, in turn, was daughter of a Swearingen daughter, Drucilla, I believe, oldest daughter of Thomas, if I remember correctly. I can look for these names in both books and see if the authors found and include those names.
As for Mason, that name is one that is connected to me, not in my direct line. I have not researched it other than quick online looks a couple of years ago (I ought to check out genealogy.com; I never have, and one cousin introduced me to another cousin who is also a Mason granddaughter. She wanted info on the family. As far as she knows, her ggrandfather, Bennett Mason, kind of just appears.) My cousin remembers seeing a picture of her Mason grandmother in regalia. I have a picture of her family. She marries a Sinkey who would be my gggguncle. He was known to have said he was Irish and Indian and knew the dances. Wish I knew what dances; it would go far to resolve the mystery of who they were.
The Sinkeys were in Lancaster, PA (DNA evidence leads to England origin.); my Blackfoot ggggrandmother was in Beaver County, PA; my Greens/Butts were in Shepherdstown but originally, William Green was born in Portobacco. Others come from that area too, Potter, Horner. All end up in Iowa at the same location.
The Carpenter/Tomlinsons were, of course, with the Swearingens (No rumors of Indian, but I have always suspected.) but leave for Guernsey County, OH, I believe.
I will check out both books if I find them, but I am not really too hopeful. Previous researchers could not locate Bennett Mason's origin. This is the first I heard of the name near the others.

Cindy

[cinmaryjane]

Linda, the 'stories' in my family would bear out your assumption. I am quoting Herman Full, a distant cousin, from a story he told me in 1992 at a funeral in Cincinnati, Ohio. "Their kin (meaning the Shawnee) came to get 'em and, off they went to fight." He was speaking of our common Shawnee relatives who lived in Pendleton County WV. I had also been told this 'story.' I was told that family visited the Collins often.

[cinmaryjane]

Linda, the 'stories' in my family would bear out your assumption. I am quoting Herman Full, a distant cousin, from a story he told me in 1992 at a funeral in Cincinnati, Ohio. "Their kin (meaning the Shawnee) came to get 'em and, off they went to fight." He was speaking of our common Shawnee relatives who lived in Pendleton County WV. I had also been told this 'story.' I was told that family visited the Collins often.

[Nannanae]

well I will say that from childhood memories there is a "Hammer" my shoeboots the family someplace. and so that would be cherokee.

so where to start that subject. so I finally had found a Hammer or something close
1867 removal rolls? has polly boots and lizzy boots in that group of kids or relations is a relation on the paper called just "hammer"(?maybe is hammon?) and so now there are Hammers in N. MO around kansas city , claiming cherokee in a simular place to where Dolly was awarded a ,.....
( what is that called when they are paid for land for being officers for a war?) dolly got 40 acres and sued the government for the 80 of officers pay.. and won..
so there are hammers or a name similar that have at least cherokee connections.
jfyi.. just in case.