Santee and Sissipahaw

[Saponi 1]

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[Linda]

I purchased "Time Before History: The Archeology of North Carolina" by Ward and Davis when we were at Town Creek. They have excavated sites they believe were Sissipaha. They were very close to the Occaneechi sites in Hillsborough and very similar. The site on the Haw River was a huge fertile area. I still have a theory that in pre-contact times the Haw River (Sissipaha) population was important, and an identification with them survives in the word "Blackfoot" so many far flung families originating in VA/NC have held to this day. (The word Sissipaha itself likely translates to Blackfoot in Tutelo).

My theory is that the word Blackfoot signified the Sissipaha/Eno/Shakori group as they collapsed together. I know there are those who hold that Blackfoot refers to all the Siouan of the VA/NC Piedmont, but I'm throwing that idea out there for consideration.

The article I wrote about this for a Melungeon book is still on the front page, if anybody hasn't seen it yet and is interested. "The Other Blackfoot."

www.saponitown.com/blackfoot.htm (http://www.saponitown.com/blackfoot.htm)

[Saponi 1]

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[Saponi 1]

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[Linda]

Lawrence says there are some bands of the Sioux out west who have oral traditions about cousins on the east coast. I think it was Airy Dixon who was telling me that there's a tradition about trade being maintained between the mountains and the Atlantic coast by these Siouan cousins over a long period of time.

I've come across some Lakota folks who seem to rankle at the notion of such a relationship. "The Sioux don't leave their people behind and forget about them." But from the stories above, we can see they didn't forget.

It was coming across a lady on the internet who identified herself as Sihasapa (Blackfoot) Sioux that made me take a look at the word "Sissipaha" and wonder what it meant. Yes, I think there's something going on with this.

[rockhound]

Glad I did a search before I posted this exact same topic.

I think the coincidence of their being Sihasapa Sioux (Blackfoot Sioux) and Sioux-speaking Sissipahaw in NC is very interesting. But it seems the Blackfoot Sioux believe that they are connected to the Blackfeet Indians of Montana. Plus these Blackfeet Sioux are of the Lakota Tribe, which is the westernmost tribe of the three (Lakota, Dakota, Nakota). From what I understand, the Dakota are said to have come from the southeast.

It seems pretty clear that a lot of people believe that the Dakota Sioux migrated from the southeast, through Ohio, and into Minnesota. The presence of the Biloxi Sioux in Mississippi sure gives some credence to the long distances the Sioux may have travelled.

Another thing, the Dakota tribe is also known as the Santee tribe. The Santee River in SC is associated with the Cheraw, a Sioux-speaking tribe that may be connected with the Tuscarora.

Does anyone know the origins of the Santee River's name? I looked it up. It is named for the Santee Indians who lived in what is now Santee, SC on the Santee River. They speak a Siouan language as well. It says they may have been the easternmost mound builders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santee_tribe

Now I need to see where the Santee Sioux of the west got their name from...

[rockhound]

Apparently the Santees suffered a defeat by the British in 1715-1716, and were relocated, many to the West Indies as slaves, opening up the river for British settlement as part of the Carolina Colony.

[Linda]

I heard something to the effect that the Santee had been living here in the Upper south till after contact, and then made their way out west. I have not been able to confirm that yet. I believe it was told to me by someone who was reporting what was said by a Lakota concerning their own history, not from white documentation. Or my memory may be wrong.

I have not heard that the Sihisapa Blackfoot Sioux are connected to the Algonquin Blackfoot. I heard to the contrary.

[techteach]

The linguist I was in contact with a few years ago indicated that the Dakota language is one of the closest Sioux languages to Tutelo, if I remember correctly.

Techteach

[rockhound]

Originally posted by Linda

I have not heard that the Sihisapa Blackfoot Sioux are connected to the Algonquin Blackfoot. I heard to the contrary.

I thought I read somewhere that they were thought to be connected...but I don't know.

[techteach]

Definitely connected. Closely linked too, is what I think I remember.

Techteach

[Tom]

The algonquin Blackfoot are totally different from the sioux people in language and coustoms.
The Blackfoot here are not related culturally to the Sioux unless you consider both of them plains people.
Blackfoot is as closely related as the Saponi are to the Cherokee.

[techteach]

I am probably mixing my tribes. Here is a quote from this web site that is the tribe I am referring to: http://www.aaanativearts.com/article654.html

"The Blackfoot Sioux (Black Feet of the Lakota Nation is their official U.S. title, or Sihasapa in their native language) are a subdivision of the Teton Sioux, which are also known as the Western Sioux, which are part of the Lakota Nation. (Not to be confused with the three bands of Blackfeet Indians located in Browning, Montana and southern Alberta, Canada, which are not Sioux at all, but just plain Blackfeet, which is a whole other tribe.) :)"

That is the tribe whose language is very similar to Tutelo, if I am remembering correctly. I checked the linguist's site. He used to have a map of Siouan languages there, but I did not see it this time. But he did have a table of Siouan languages and included the language of the Hochunk in WI which I do remember as being similar to Tutelo.

Techteach

[Tom]

Hey Tech, the Ho Chunk, used to be called the Winnebago, and that is one group that is in language anyway closely related to the Tutelo, interesting maybe there are ceremonies etc that might be close,,, you never know.

[techteach]

Tom,
Yes, I sometimes thought that maybe some Eastern Sioux intentionally followed a route west after leaving VA, towards NA who spoke their language. For example, your folks, Linda's folks, and mine were not far from the Winnebago. The agent at Prairie Du Chien was Joseph Street and Street is one of my names. His family came from VA.
Many of my folks continued west and also to Canada, as yours must have. However, one of mine can be found at the turn of the century at Pine Ridge Lakota Sioux reservation.
I went over to WI Dells a couple of years ago and watched the Ho Chunk dance.

Techteach

[Linda]

My great-grandfather's German in-laws (I MEAN fresh off the boat German) used to gossip that he was from the Winnebago reservation. I believe my cousin was saying they saw him hanging out there. He was in Vernon county, though born in Wabash county, IL, from parents from PA. His daughter is the one who told us we were Blackfoot.

We're all saying the same thing. It's the Sihisapa Blackfoot Sioux there may be an (obvious) connection to. A lot of people want to snear at that, but, considering Occam's razor, it is the most straightforward explanation for the coincidence. If the Santee in the West are related to the Santee of SC, why would it be unlikely that there was a connection, more ancient, between the Blackfoot Siouan of the upper south, and those in the Tetons?

It was on another thread this week that I brought up evidence Bess contributed a few years back. A white observer in Tecumseh's camp, (I believe it was) saw Tutelo and Winnebago warriors able to communicate, their dialects being mutually intelligible.

Someone shared this link with me. http://hotcakencyclopedia.com/ -- a Hochunk encyclopedia. Check out the extensive collection of "mythology." It has to be more relevant to us than Grimm's fairy tales. I'd suggest we all save as much of this content as we can while it's available online.

[Linda]

I just spent some time over there. This site is voluminous, with many, many stories, annotated with academic commentary and heavily cross-referenced. One hell of resource.

[Tom]

I certainly agree with both of you, the material on the Ho Chunk, looks like a great source.
The shirts that the men are wearing are like the shirts that would have been very common to our not so distant ancestors.
I find it very interesting that all 3 of our families were in the same general area, really thought provoking.
Linda you mentioned Occams razor, this is the first time that I have heard or read anyone use this term in order to support our research, thanks for doing so.
There was some time back a woman that posted a story on this site she went by the name of "Moma Bear", we should compare her story to some of the other stories perhaps the 3 groups that we've been talking about here.
What ever happened to this Lady and is she still in the ' hood?
Thanx for the great posts.

[Linda]

I don't know who you're referring to.

[techteach]

Tom,
I found that the family of the Indian agent in Prairie Du Chien, WI at the time my folks came to IA from Ohio was originally from VA. There is an article on a Wisconsin historical site that says that Joseph Street's father (and mother too, I think) were from VA. To me, that always seemed interesting. Street was very well respected in the NA community in IA and is buried next to Chief Wapello. I read an MA thesis on him, as Street is one of my names.

Techteach

[Tom]

perhaps there is a connection between the groups heading into that area, it seams like too much of a coincidence to be just that.
I have seen several times where Indian agents were mixed blood people.
There is a great deal of stories in my family and Barbs of our family members being in Indian country, and going through healing ceremonies etc. Thanx so mush for that, you never know it may lead to something much bigger.
Linda I posted a message on the thread that contains trhe story of the big dipper.

[techteach]

I have another name, Cooley, that becomes the main DC rep to what was then the BIA at the time that Grant was prez. I kind of think they made use of folks who at least worked among the NA folks. The Cooley in my family comes from Canandiagu (sp), NY, joins them in OH, and is buried in IA in the same cemetery as my mixed ancestors.

Techteach

[sammarroq]

My great-grandfather's German in-laws (I MEAN fresh off the boat German) used to gossip that he was from the Winnebago reservation. I believe my cousin was saying they saw him hanging out there. He was in Vernon county, though born in Wabash county, IL, from parents from PA. His daughter is the one who told us we were Blackfoot.

We're all saying the same thing. It's the Sihisapa Blackfoot Sioux there may be an (obvious) connection to. A lot of people want to snear at that, but, considering Occam's razor, it is the most straightforward explanation for the coincidence. If the Santee in the West are related to the Santee of SC, why would it be unlikely that there was a connection, more ancient, between the Blackfoot Siouan of the upper south, and those in the Tetons?

It was on another thread this week that I brought up evidence Bess contributed a few years back. A white observer in Tecumseh's camp, (I believe it was) saw Tutelo and Winnebago warriors able to communicate, their dialects being mutually intelligible.

Someone shared this link with me. http://hotcakencyclopedia.com/ -- a Hochunk encyclopedia. Check out the extensive collection of "mythology." It has to be more relevant to us than Grimm's fairy tales. I'd suggest we all save as much of this content as we can while it's available online.


Very interesting...thought I'd bring this one back around...