How Cherokee was John Ross?

[larry myers]

Again I have been researching the mix of Powhatan and Sioux Native Americans in the Jamestown VA area. It seems there are records that Chief Powhatan was related to two groups. The Aztecs of Mexico and the Crow of Montana.

This is why I believe the story that Sacajawea's brother was Chief of the Crow in 1804 is true.

If you read the stories of Chief Powhanan, you will see he and his tribe did not get along with the Sioux in Virginia. That he pushed them into what is now the Maryland area. You must correct me if I am wrong but I believe these same issues presented themselves in the Dakotas in the later 1800's

I believe you have to look at Chief Hanging Maw and his relationship to the Virginia Dandridge family and to Alexander Spotswood and his friend Daniel Boone to understand the Native American Mix. Another interesting area was the marriage of Big Jake Troxell into the Cherokee Tribe and his involvement with well known Virginia/Maryland Jewish Native American fur traders.

[larry myers]

I guess what I am trying to say is yes, that could have happened if you look at all the mixed blood of the Cherokee of the 1790's I am not even sure Cherokee Chief Hanging Maw was Cherokee although his wife Betty Carpenter sure was. She was the direct line of Moytoy of Talco. After Chief Hanging Maw died, Chief John Ross was elected as a replacement. I believe John Ross was only 1/8 Native American blood. Most of his family was from Ireland. Chief John Ross was elected American style. I am not sure he needed any Native American blood to run for Chief. He just had to be on the ticket.

After the American Revolution, Blood Lines were looked down on. The American idea was everyone was elected on their own ideas and platform and why not, everyone was equal.

[beeleaf]

Begging your pardon, but John Ross's father was Scottish. Since his mother was Cherokee, so was he.

Sue, yes it is possible. Tribal affiliation is just that...affiliation. Who they were with. Take a look at the names of the tribes that were counted. Others were lumped in with them. Yuchi were counted as Creek. Very possible for Saponi to be counted as Cherokee, since they sometimes lived together.


Best wishes in your search.

[larry myers]

I also have to beg your pardon. It is my understanding that Chief John Ross was Irish, 1/8 Native American and elected as Chief. If you have records otherwise, I would like to be pointed in the direction where I might find them.

It could very well be that John Ross was Scotch Irish and he might be 1/4 Native American vs 1/8. I do not believe Chief John Ross' mother was 100% Native American.

I do know he took over from Chief Hanging Maw and Chief Hanging Maw does not appear to be Cherokee but rather Mingo.

My big interest in Chief Hanging Maw was the indident with Daniel Boone's daughter. I believe this incident is connected to James Fenimore Cooper, his friend Ned Myers and a fellow named Chief John Logan.

[Three Crows]

Boy.. Poor John Ross, he's really getting a workout here. Just to get my Scots Irish two cents in, I will offer a little history I have found in the search for roots.

Originally the Scots were thrown out of the highlands by the English ( gotta love those English) because the space was needed for sheep, and were displaced to Northern Ireland where they became the Scots Irish (Ulstermen or Orangemen). They arrived there just in time for the potato famine in Ireland. Poor and starving, many of them got onto coffin ships bound for America. Many of these coffin ships landed in Philadelphia. The poor survivors basically headed for the hills and ended up in Appalachia. That is where the folks (my folks) got to know the local indigenous people, and began to intermarry. Ross is a known Scottish surname. I hope this information might help someone in their search.

Best to all Threecrows

[larry myers]

I am not sure why Chief John Ross was mostly Irish. In any event, has anyone read the letters from Chief John Ross to his I believe neighbor Jacob Myers. Do you know if the Ross family connects to William of Orange in any way or have any connection to the Claypole/Ross family of Betsy Ross?

[DAJ42]

John Ross was born in 1790. Hanging Maw was dead by 1794. John Ross was NOT Hanging Maw's direct successor. hint: do the math. In fact, John Ross wasn't chief until 1828, 30 some odd years after Hanging Maw died.

John Ross's father was an immigrant from Scotland. The records of that period are very clear about this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ross_(Cherokee_chief)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging_Maw

The Scots-Irish, aka Ulster Scots, were mostly NOT from the Scottish Highlands. Rather, the majority hailed from the English-Scottish borders region, other parts of lowland Scotland and northern England, with some Welsh and French Protestants thrown in for good measure. George MacDonald Frser's book "Steel Bonnets" touches on this, as do many articles available on the internet, as do many books available at your local library and bookstore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_people

[DAJ42]

The author of "Steel Bonnets" should read as "George MacDonald Fraser", not "Frser".

[larry myers]

I am willing to believe Chief John Ross was not the direct successor to Hanging Maw if you have the name of who was the direct successor. I don't believe you can say Little Turkey was his successor as he was already a Chief of another split Cherokee tribe. It would be like saying Jefferson Davis would be the successor of Abraham Lincoln if Abraham Lincoln died in 1862. Although maybe that could have happened.

In other words if Hanging Maw was Chief up until it death in 1794 and John Ross wasn't Cheif until 1828, then who was Chief of the people following Hanging Maw between 1794 and 1828?

So yes it's EZ to do the Math and the Math says someone is missing. If John Ross's family was from Ulster then indeed John Ross's family was from Ireland although he could be Scottish or Scots/Irish. For sure John Ross's family was mostly NOT Native American. In any event, it does not change the story that John Ross was Chief.

I do not believe he was more then 1/4 Native American or less then 1/8 Native American.

[beeleaf]

Sources for Daniel Ross being Scottish are numerous. He was from Sutherlandshire. Quick google search should yield results. His mother's side (MacDonald) is where it gets confusing. Have seen them listed as British interpreters, Scottish, and Irish by various people.

However, his mother was Cherokee because her mother was Cherokee, and so forth. We did not measure ourselves with fractions back then. Many Cherokee still do not do this.

Not sure how this relates to Saponi?

[larry myers]

The heading is, Saponi listed as Cherokee. It could also read Scotch Irish listed as Cherokee. This issue is, could Saponi be listed as Cherokee? The answer has to be yes if indeed, Scotich Irish could also be listed as Cherokee.

If indeed John Ross' mother was Cherokee and Irish, he could just as EZ be Irish as he could be Cherokee. It depends on your point of view.

I am just as right saying John Ross was Irish as someone else saying John Ross was Cherokee if the mother controls the blood line.

That is my same point with Sacajawea's grandchildren by John Baptiste being named Barbara and Margaret Myers.

So that is how it relates.

[Three Crows]

aagghh....

[larry myers]

Strange but true. Just exactly who controls the blood line and why? Although, the true American way is that anyone should be able to run for Cherokee Chief as long as he or she has the votes.

[Three Crows]

Aaaaggghhh..

[dakota54]

Larry, where do I go to find that information. i've been reading what I can find on the Internet about Powhatan. But a lot of what is on the Internet is not factual. And, the majority of the "Bollings information/genealogy" was destroyed in the early years.

On top of that, Wyndham Robertson who wrote a book on the Bollings and I assume Rolfe's too, Robertson admits he made up the name Jane Poythress, in order to clear up the confusion at that time. That time period was the late 1800's, not colonial times. So, if Jane Poythress didn't exist, who was Thomas Rolfe's first wife? They still have her listed as Thomas' wife. Another controversy is: did John Rolfe marry Elizabeth Washington, in England, or was it Thomas Rofle who first marred Elizabeth Washington in England. Whch ever one it was, they had a daughter Ann(e) who married Peter Elwin. It is my opinion that the Bollings have the same problem as everyone else. We all, have several ancestors that we can't place.

Carolyn.......tenderfoot1954@yahoo.com

[Kira_Leigh]

There is a Bolling Family Association. Google them on the internet. My father was a Bouldin, but when he had his DNA done it showed he was a Bolling. I am in the Bolling 5 group and we have a forum similar to this. And yes due to the family using many different spellings of our last name we can't place alot of our ancestors, that is why we use DNA and even that just showed a loop in my family tree. They have Blue Bollings and Red Bollings and you have a son that was a Torie and a son that Was a Patriot. The father was a Torie so he disowned the son that was a patriot, so that son change the spelling of his name to Bowling. That is the line DNA says my family is from. The Blue and Red Bolling has something to do with Pocohotas and her granddaughter marrying a Bolling. One thing my father may have had his name spelled Bouldin on his birth certificate, but Bouldin are not of the same family according to DNA. It's funny Dad's last name is spelled Bouldin on his birth certificate and his Dad's name is spelled Bowlin. It sure has made family research lots of fun. Cindi

[Kira_Leigh]

The two different spellings are on the same piece of paper. Cindi

[beeleaf]

i've been reading what I can find on the Internet about Powhatan. But a lot of what is on the Internet is not factual.


Dakota54, that is the truth. If anyone is in doubt, pick two sources and see if they agree. (Preferably two sources that are not copied from the same place)

Several of my lines are in published books and other things that disagree with each other. If anybody from those lines passes along info from one source without knowing about the other, they may be real confident that they got it right. But did they?

[larry myers]

My information on Pocahontas is really from the St Clair family of Pittsburgh. If indeed Pocahontas went to England to visit King James, the St Clair family of Scotland would have been involved. An Oliver Cromwell descendent who lives in England today believes Pocahnontas is buried next to or very near Henry VII at Westminister Abbey.

If you look at the records of the Cromwell family and Ann Boleyn's family, this makes sense if indeed Pocahontas had red hair. I understand Boleyn was changed to Bolling when the family came to America.

Thomas Lord Fairfax's grandfather was a General in Oliver Cromwell's army. Bishop Meade was both related to Thomas Cromwell and his great nephew Oliver Cromwell by the book "The Life of Bishop Meade".

[Three Crows]

Hi DAJ42 Try Googling 'Highland Clearances', it may shed some light on how the Highlanders ended up on the Emerald Isle.

[larry myers]

I am not sure how this connects to the St Clair family of Pittsburgh and Scotland and to Oliver Cromwell and his great uncle Thomas Cromwell and to Anne Boleyn.

You might know that the St Clair family claim they were in the Americas before Columbus. That may or may not be true. What is true is King James commissioned watercolors of the Powhaten family of Pocahontas. These painting depict the family having red hair or red mud in their hair.

All the actions recorded in History about the meeting of Pocahontas with King James and her year stay at Ham House in Richmond England indicate to me she had red hair just like Thomas Jefferson and the Randolph family.

Fast forward to Pittsburgh in 1750 when Thomas Jefferson father Peter Jefferson gave about 150 Native Americans, who I believe had red hair, about 15000 acres of land on the high ground of Pittsburgh about 13 miles from the Forks of the Ohio. With them were the St Clair and Bruce families from Scotland. One of the land grants was actually called the Bruce Grant. It was located in Clairton PA another 2 miles out. It's not far from Upper St Clair township next to Roselyn Farms.

[DAJ42]

Three Crows, thanks. My studies of the Highland Clearances have always indicated that the bulk of highlanders affected ended up in the Carolinas, Canada, Caribbean. Yes, some were forced to Ulster, where they were a very tiny minority of the Ulster population.

The bulk of the Highland Clearances started in Sutherland circa 1807, which is after the main sequence of events in this thread: John Ross's father had come to the Americas well before then from Scotland. Of those who had emigrated earlier, either volutarily or not, many who resided in the Carolinas during the American Revolution sided with the English and returned to Scotland after losing a handful of battles against some of the revolutionaries. Flora MacDonald, she who helped Bonnie Prince Charlie escape after Culloden, was one of those who returned from the New World.

[Three Crows]

Hi DAJ

My own studies indicate that the Highland crofters were displaced from the fertile lands, to the coastline (by the English to make room for sheep) where they were expected to make a living harvesting sea salt from kelp. The coastal terrain was very poor for farming, and the salt business was not enough to feed them. This made Ireland look pretty good, and so many departed for Northern Ireland.

Thanks for your observations. I hate to deviate too much from the purpose of this forum, so I will henceforth desist from subjecting the good folks of Saponitown to any more Celtic history lessons.

God bless Bonnie Prince Charlie.

T.C.