What's up with the NCCIA Appeal?

[Linda]

Anybody have any idea what will come of the NCCIA appeal to the court's ruling that the Occaneechi Band of the Saponi be granted recognition? It's my understanding that this time they'll be going all the way to the NC Supreme Court.

I have no idea how this will go. If the OBSN win the last fight, will they have really won? I honestly don't know. If they win, then they have the right to be part of that community of state recognized Indians, but if everybody resents the heck out of you are you really a part of them?

The temptations to go for recognition are beginning to present themselves. I have a six year old who's a precocious grass dancer, but he's prohibited from dancing in many pow wows, especially those with important contests, because he has no card. So what am I doing, setting him up in a situation where he'll end up feeling like a second hand citizen in this caste system, watching boys who can't dance as well as he does, walk away with prizes he can't win because he doesn't have the right pedigree? Yuckoo-o.

But then if I fought the battle for recognition he'd be full grown before it ended, and he would have grown up around a lot of bitter contention over his rights to commemorate his heritage. Either way is not what I had in mind for him. I really am confused and don't know what I should think.

All I wanted was for my kids to grow up with a sense and an appreciation for this aspect of their heritage that was so unnaturally silenced. So there are still these forces working to silence it once more, except now they're coming from Indians. It's a weird world we live in.

So I guess he'll just grow up like one of those great Negro baseball players who never got a chance to play in the majors because of his race. A great could have been.

[Coharie Roy]

Hi Linda,

You wrote, "Anybody have any idea what will come of the NCCIA appeal to the court's ruling that the Occaneechi Band of the Saponi be granted recognition? It's my understanding that this time they'll be going all the way to the NC Supreme Court."

I didn't know about this. But I can find out. My dad is a member of the NCCIA (North Carolina Commission of Indian Affairs). I'll call him this evening and query him. I'll report back after I talk with him.

Roy

[Linda]

Thanks, Roy. I'd like to keep this place neutral as far as the emotions about all this are concerned, and I know you're a good person to help with that. BTW, I've found out a lot more about that Vernon County, WI Indian settlement we were talking about. I'll try and write about that today or tomorrow. It has to do with another thrill at Fort Christanna.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Linda, I can't wait....I went to the Vernon Co. Genwebsite but nothing caught my eye.

Brenda

[Linda]

Okey dokey, I'll make a point to get on that today or tonight.

[Coharie Roy]

Hi Linda,

I just talked to dad. As the saying goes, " I don't have a horse in that race," (or is the saying, "A dog in that fight?") so I think I can remain neutral, however, I'm sensitive to the feelings of you and others here who ARE emotionally invested in this ..."struggle."

OK, here's what dad said.

1. Dad is a member of the 10 member Recognition Committee of the North Carolina Commission of Indian Affairs (NCCIA).

2. The meeting to decide whether or not to appeal the decision (to the N. C. Supreme Court ? ) is tomorrow night in Fayetteville, N.C.

3. Sentiment is running strongly in favor of appealing the dscision (to the N.C. Supreme Court?).

4. There's only one NCCIA Recognition Committee member who seems to support the Occaneechi-Saponi recognition (AT THIS TIME); the member from the most recently admitted tribe, The Meherrin.

5. Future recognition of The Occaneechi-Saponi is not out of the question; but, they must meet all the critreia for recognition.

6. Dad feels that their biggest impediment is their own internal power struggle over who represents The Occaneechi-Saponi. Dad feels that they really need to resolve this so that The Occaneechi-Saponi speak with one voice.

That's about it. Dad's well known for keeping things secret that which is told to him in confidence. Soooo, I got the impression that he was holding a lot back.... even to me, his own son. However, he's like that. And if I ever wanted someone to keep a secret for me, it would be my dad. He's very ethical in that way.

Well, gotta go get in my 3 miles of daily walking. Catch ya later.

Roy

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

I read the above twice and have a question. Now remember, I am not up on all the laws, rules and don't everybody come down on me at once if I say this all wrong.......

From what I have read it is my impression that the Occenechi-Saponi want to keep their tribe within the limits of what they believe to be their home in NC, however, I can't see that this is possible as the Saponi history says that they migerated from west of the Appalachian Mountains in what is today the Ohio valley. The Occanechi -Saponi scattered and were taken in by many tribes through marriage or otherwise adopted. Some migerated as far away from civilation as they could get and spoke no more of their heritage.
I guess what I am trying to say is that the Occanechi -Saponi could be anywhere, not just in Orange Co. NC . It seems to me that they would stand a better chance of getting what they wanted if they would gather up all their missing people and the more people the louder the "voice".
just my thoughts......

[Linda]

Thanks for that report, Roy. The issue of a fractured community seems to be epidemic, doesn't it? It's a shame, though sometimes I muse that it's part of our duty to our ancestors. They're getting a kick out of being fought over. After being dismissed by history and society the way they were, I guess it hits the spot.

Brenda I think a lot of confusion and contention revolves around the word "THE," as in THE Saponi or THE Tuscarora, etc., etc. I may be wrong here, but my impression is that in order to understand the OBSN position regarding accepting members from all over, it would be useful to think of them as "The Hillsborough, NC Saponi." So if you aren't intimately connected with that physical community, it's obvious why you aren't being recruited.

To my understanding there is no such thing as "THE Saponi." There are some organized communities for specific isolate groups, only one of which is state recognized, I believe, which serves only the people in their group. For us Diaspora Saponi descendants, there isn't anything. (Diaspora as in "dispersed.") I suppose we could try and organize ourselves, but that would just raise some more hackles about "interlopers." Plus, if the people who've stayed put in some documented area are having a hard time being officially recognized, what hope is there for people trickling in from all over?

None of it makes a lot of sense to me. I can't get it through my thick skull why this aspect of my heritage should be so different from any other part. If in my personal life I hang with other people interested in the same heritage and we recognize one another, what more can there be? My constitutional rights protect my ability to do that, so I'm satisfied.

[Coharie Roy]

Occaneechi Band of the Saponi Nation - News

11/12 - Press Release: Occaneechi Win North Carolina State Tribal Recognition

November 9, 2001: The North Carolina State Supreme Court today officially denied the North Carolina Indian Commission’s appeal of it’s recent N.C. Court of Appeals, where the court had ruled that the Commission acted illegally in denying official recognition to the Alamance county-based Occaneechi Band of the Saponi Nation. This decision paves the way for official recognition of the Occaneechi as an Indian tribe, enabling them to take their place on the commission along with the seven previously recognized tribes: The Eastern Band of Cherokee, Coharie, Waccamaw-Siouan, Haliwa, Meherrin, Indians of Person County, and Lumbee. The Tribe, consisting of nearly 500 members, began researching it’s history in the mid 1980’s, formally submitting a petition for recognition in 1990. The petition was denied in 1995 by the Indian Commission, who felt the Occaneechi only met 3 of the necessary 5 criteria for recognition, in spite of endorsements from other tribes, historians, archeologists, and the evidence of hundreds of pages of documentation.

In a complicated legal battle, the Occaneechi won their case before Administrative Law Judge Dolores Smith in 1998, only to have it reversed in Superior Court a year or so later.
This decision was appealed by the Tribe to the State Court of Appeals, which earlier this year ruled unanimously that the Commission had violated State law in denying recognition to the Tribe. The Commission elected to appeal this to the North Carolina State Supreme Court, which has denied the Commission’s Petition for Discretionary Review, effectively ending the matter. In effect, the original decision by Judge Smith, which said in part that, “the petitioning group traces back to the Saponi and Catawba Tribes”, becomes law.

Tribal leadership will begin working with local legislators to begin drafting the required legislation adding seats to the Commission for the Occaneechi, and will begin planning for choosing their representative to sit on the Commission Board in Raleigh. Representation on the Indian Commission will allow the Occaneechi to compete for various state educational scholarships, participate in Indian Housing Programs, and add their input to the various problems facing Indian people throughout the state. “It’s a matter of pride, not money, which is good because there just isn’t that much money out there for Indian Tribes, not on the State level”, said Tribal Historian Forest Hazel.

The Occaneechi trace their history to the Occaneechi, Saponi, and Tutelo tribes, who are related to the modern Catawba Tribe of Rock Hill, South Carolina. Their settlement in the Alamance County can be traced to 1787, when members of the Jeffries and Whitmore families settled in what came to be called the “Little Texas” community of northeastern Alamance County. Future plans for the Tribe include a cultural center which will house a museum, office space, and room for meetings and classes. “I think the Tribe can be a real asset to the community” said Tribal Chairwoman Beverly Payne-Betts, herself a descendant of the Jeffries and Corn families. “With so many plant closings in the area recently, anything that brings money into the area is a boost to the local economy, whether it’s through grants or tourist dollars.” The Occaneechi Tribe currently holds several pow wows and cultural festivals each year in the Alamance-Orange County area and maintains a reconstructed 1701 Occaneechi village in Hillsborough, North Carolina where living history days and festivals provide thousands of visitors annually with a glimpse of early tribal life.

[vance hawkins]

Youe son/grandson shouldn't be prohibited from dancing because he has no card -- is that the pot callin' the kittle black???

I live in SW Oklahoma -- the heart of Comanche/Kiowa lands -- we have federally recognized tribes and plenty of 'em -- and they'd let unenrolled folks dance -- there is protocol and you have to have been invited to dance -- but nobody checks to see who is "carded" and who isn't.

So some state recognized groups -- who have been denied rights to be who they are by the BIA -- and not allowin' other unenrolled to dance????

Those folks got a problem!

I've danced with the many tribes without a problem andI am not enrolled either? What's their problem???

vance hawkins

[vance hawkins]

Youe son/grandson shouldn't be prohibited from dancing because he has no card -- is that the pot callin' the kittle black???

I live in SW Oklahoma -- the heart of Comanche/Kiowa lands -- we have federally recognized tribes and plenty of 'em -- and they'd let unenrolled folks dance -- there is protocol and you have to have been invited to dance -- but nobody checks to see who is "carded" and who isn't.

So some state recognized groups -- who have been denied rights to be who they are by the BIA -- and not allowin' other unenrolled to dance????

Those folks got a problem!

I've danced with the many tribes without a problem andI am not enrolled either? What's their problem???

vance hawkins

[Linda]

I think all this has its roots in the insecure status of these groups. They're only halfway there, they're still under scrutiny, so they're very concerned some of the wrong types will show up and make them look bad.

They've got all these hoops to jump through, they can't have people with weak cases genealogially on their rolls, or they'll get passed over. They can't have people crashing in who've just been wandering around in the wilderness for a few hundred years, since that will compromise the appearance of continuity in their community.

Those few indivudals in any group who like acting the jerk will take full advantage of these pressures. All this gives the community involved the reputation of being discriminatory.

My son was pretty well shielded from all that. We went to the Loris pow wow in SC. They have prize money for the dancers, but it's based on a draw, not competition. All you have to do is be in the dance circle when your number is drawn. The kids won plenty of Christmas money. He was honored lately by a young boy (4) copycatting his dancing. I thought my boy handled it very well. He took it as a compliment and didn't get jealous that he wasn't the tiniest dancer anymore everybody had their eyes on.

If I'd taken him to that competition event and he'd won, he might have gained less maturity than he has with the way things worked out.

I'm glad you get to kick up your heels with no problem. So what's the protocol, you show up decked out and ask, or do you just hang out in your civies, get to know people and hope to be invited?

[vance hawkins]

you said --

I'm glad you get to kick up your heels with no problem. So what's the protocol, you show up decked out and ask, or do you just hang out in your civies, get to know people and hope to be invited?

reply --

guess I should have explained better.

most local pow-wows here in SW Ok are sponsered either the Kiowa or Comanche Tia-Piah society. They are usually benefits and you donate to some chairty (also donation for the singers and drum and whatever else they want, maybe for the head dancer or whatever else). Anyone -- white red black brown or yellow -- can donate, so when they are asking for a donation anyone can dance around the circle once to place the money on the blanket -- regalia is not required. But the master of ceremonies will let you know when the time is for you to do it.

Another time -- they also tell you when you can join the circle. Often there are a couple of dances for the spectators.

another occasion you can dance -- if you belong to the Tiah-Piah Society -- it is for folks who have been in the military or their father was. This is the "Gourd Dance" -- and you need to attend Pow-Wow's and get to know individual families and let them, subtly over time aws they get to know you, know you are interested.

Another time you can dance. Our son joined the Navy 1 year ago. A friend told the MC and it got around to the dancers. They did a dance in honor of him and we were allowed as parents to join in.

So no, ya can not just "jump in & kick up your heels" any time ya want.

The only time I ever wore regalia was in Miami Ok on Ottawa tribal grounds, but they -- the Ottowa -- recognize a band of unenrolled Old Settler Cherokee from Mo/Ar and that band invited me, even tho I am not a member of their group -- I went to the gatherin'.

There's usually a time in most Pow-Wow's when they let everyone dance who want to.

Also danced in Stomp Dances -- Cherokee again (these are the dances of the traditional Keetoowah and many tribes have them who originated in the Eastern Woodlands) -- and very little in the way of regalia is worn there either, at least in the Cherokee version. Many enrolled Cherokee here in Oklahoma consider culture a thing that is dynamic, constantly changin'. So they'd consider you "odd" to wear regalia of another area to a Stomp.

That's one reason they were at one time(Cherokees in Ok) usin' the term "wannabe" so often -- they see these Cherokee groups as "phoney" that go back to the way folks lived 200 years ago. But they are startin' to change their position, as more and more of us unenrolled folks can prove our ancestry, and start trying to get to know them better face to face, goin' to Tahlequah to talk TO them, rather that just "talk about" them. When they see us face to face. They also get a chance to talk TO us, and not just ABOUT us.

You are right -- I appologize. Groups that are seekin' recognition are in a different boat and they have to leap through hoops they can't see very well. Wdav for pointin' that out to me.

I can prove my Cherokee ancestry, but I only know I have ancestors from another tribe from Virginia and I don't know which one. I saw others sayin' they had a surname of mine that came from Va mention "Blackfoot" and that's why I am here -- I can't prove anything. I hope yall don't mind me bein' here. Sometimes I'm blunt & not too suttle.

Although my dad was 3/8ths Indian & I'm 3/16ths, I KNOW I am not eligible for tribal membership as we don't meet the criteria, & I can live with that. Blood is NOT the only criteria -- often your ancestors had to not leave the tribe either and live amongst Whites, and mine did. Again this is the BIAs criteria, and it is the BIA that was created to "assimilate" Indians until we ceased to exist as a culture.

vance hawkins

[vance hawkins]

you said --

I'm glad you get to kick up your heels with no problem. So what's the protocol, you show up decked out and ask, or do you just hang out in your civies, get to know people and hope to be invited?

reply --

guess I should have explained better.

most local pow-wows here in SW Ok are sponsered either the Kiowa or Comanche Tia-Piah society. They are usually benefits and you donate to some chairty (also donation for the singers and drum and whatever else they want, maybe for the head dancer or whatever else). Anyone -- white red black brown or yellow -- can donate, so when they are asking for a donation anyone can dance around the circle once to place the money on the blanket -- regalia is not required. But the master of ceremonies will let you know when the time is for you to do it.

Another time -- they also tell you when you can join the circle. Often there are a couple of dances for the spectators.

another occasion you can dance -- if you belong to the Tiah-Piah Society -- it is for folks who have been in the military or their father was. This is the "Gourd Dance" -- and you need to attend Pow-Wow's and get to know individual families and let them, subtly over time aws they get to know you, know you are interested.

Another time you can dance. Our son joined the Navy 1 year ago. A friend told the MC and it got around to the dancers. They did a dance in honor of him and we were allowed as parents to join in.

So no, ya can not just "jump in & kick up your heels" any time ya want.

The only time I ever wore regalia was in Miami Ok on Ottawa tribal grounds, but they -- the Ottowa -- recognize a band of unenrolled Old Settler Cherokee from Mo/Ar and that band invited me, even tho I am not a member of their group -- I went to the gatherin'.

There's usually a time in most Pow-Wow's when they let everyone dance who want to.

Also danced in Stomp Dances -- Cherokee again (these are the dances of the traditional Keetoowah and many tribes have them who originated in the Eastern Woodlands) -- and very little in the way of regalia is worn there either, at least in the Cherokee version. Many enrolled Cherokee here in Oklahoma consider culture a thing that is dynamic, constantly changin'. So they'd consider you "odd" to wear regalia of another area to a Stomp.

That's one reason they were at one time(Cherokees in Ok) usin' the term "wannabe" so often -- they see these Cherokee groups as "phoney" that go back to the way folks lived 200 years ago. But they are startin' to change their position, as more and more of us unenrolled folks can prove our ancestry, and start trying to get to know them better face to face, goin' to Tahlequah to talk TO them, rather that just "talk about" them. When they see us face to face. They also get a chance to talk TO us, and not just ABOUT us.

You are right -- I appologize. Groups that are seekin' recognition are in a different boat and they have to leap through hoops they can't see very well. Wdav for pointin' that out to me.

I can prove my Cherokee ancestry, but I only know I have ancestors from another tribe from Virginia and I don't know which one. I saw others sayin' they had a surname of mine that came from Va mention "Blackfoot" and that's why I am here -- I can't prove anything. I hope yall don't mind me bein' here. Sometimes I'm blunt & not too suttle.

Although my dad was 3/8ths Indian & I'm 3/16ths, I KNOW I am not eligible for tribal membership as we don't meet the criteria, & I can live with that. Blood is NOT the only criteria -- often your ancestors had to not leave the tribe either and live amongst Whites, and mine did. Again this is the BIAs criteria, and it is the BIA that was created to "assimilate" Indians until we ceased to exist as a culture.

vance hawkins

[itconani]

vance -
saw your post mentioning stomp dances.
interesting enough, stomps were probably the closest traditional style of dancing in this region va./nc - closely related to contemporary smoke and longhouse dances from up north. folks still stomp in cherokee nc. however no one outside that area has taken up much interest in revitalizing the social nature of the stomp! what could you offer in the way of know how on stomps? who else knows etticate on stomps? any women out there no how to shake?

[vance hawkins]

O'siyo!

I saw your posts on "Stomps" and I might have said too much there. But I'll talk more about them freely in a "private" e-mail, if you want. I've been told it is a thing that should not be discussed too much online.

In Oklahoma, the Arkansas Cherokee & their relatives who stayed back east before and/or after 1838(who were the Chickamaugans -- I can provide references for the validity of that statement) kept the old traditions after those who came West in the Trail of Tears. Then after the 1846 treaty the Chickamaugans (aka Old Settlers) could no longer live peacefully in Arkansas without fear of enslavement, and another Cherokee diaspora occurred amongst the people. Some Arkansas Cherokee were enslaved, including some of my ancestors. I did research on them and that's why I know. During the Civil War (contrary to what is said in some circles), many of these Arkansas Cherokee did come to Oklahoma revived the Stomp Dances, because they were the only ones who still knew them, and they became known at that time as the "Keetoowah". At first they were lead by Christians too, and they were much very anti-slavery, and formed the bulk of the Cherokee regiments for the north in the Civil War who fought against Stand Waite & others.

Most Keetoowah will not contact you unless you have been introduced. Someone once graciously intorduced me to them and I'd like to return the favor to others.

One place to meet them is during Labor Day (Cherokee National Holiday) when they give a demonstration Stomp in Tahlequah.

vance hawkins

[Linda]

Vance, I meant to respond to your ealier post, and tell you of course you're welcome here. That's the whole point of this forum, we're all trying to figure out our family info.

I didn't know stomps should be on the Q.T. I thought they were social dances.

[itconani]

They are social dances, however also used for ceremony. The Buskita is held ever year and has a variety of sacred dances at that time. Also stomps are time to rekindkle ties, laugh, take medicine, and unwind. is also somewhat private, for the people of the community of that particular stomp ground. so i guess the QT is directed towards too much info on too much stuff too public. but up until this point i dont think there has been any indescretions or poor judgement.

[Linda]

Well, let us know if we cross any lines.

[itconani]

other than good judgement, i think ill defer to vance on that one.
best to all

[Saponi 1]

delete

[Linda]

I don't know of any way to move part of a thread. It's all or nothing. It's certainly natural for conversation to segué, just as it's easy for the momentum to be lost. I know it bothers some people, and it will make it easier to retrieve archived material at a later date, but my impulse is generally to let the momentum go where it wants.

[Saponi 1]

delete

[Linda]

Yep, be's that way sometime.