names

[vance hawkins]

I was wonderin-- I've asked this question before, but will ask it again. My great-grandpa was born in Powhatan, Arkansas (according to what is written on his daughter, my grandma Loney (1883-1963) Richey Hawkins's birth certificate). His name was Jeffry Hoten Richey.

I was wonderin' if anyone here knew anything about the original languages of Virginia area. "Hoten" is a name I've never seen anywhere else, but it looks like the last two syllables of Po"hatten" so I thought it might have a Virginia origin. Or the first 2 syllables of "Hauden"osaunee (please pardon the spellin) A great Uncle (Jeff's boy) was also given that name, Hoten Richey. Just a long shot.

thanks

vance hawkins

[Linda]

Be careful you don't confuse the Eastern Siouan Blackfoot with the Algonquin. There's no relationship that I have seen. I've come across people who assert that there were Algonquin Blackfoot here on the east coast and I've looked at their evidence and really didn't find anything substantial at all. It has just seemed to me to be assumption.

On the other hand, I've heard from probably over a hundred families now with that ID in their families and I have seen a definite pattern of known Saponi (e.g. Eastern Siouan) surnames, migration patterns. The Ohio and Missouri Saponi believe that the word Blackfoot and Saponi are synonymous it occurs so interchangeably among their families.

The language materials on the occaneechi-saponi site you reference have been learned from the existing language materials from Hale and other sources on the Tutelo language. It is a Siouan language, as identified by Hale at the turn of the last century, and confirmed by other linguists. Hale believed it to be an older form of that language group than the existing Siouan languages. I'm not if there is any recent debate on that.

The Iroquois absorbed a number of our songs/dances that are still done today, it seems in a number of variations. Some of these seem to have spread to many tribes. Not that many people seem to be aware of the roots of many of these songs, though, as you may find people annoyed with the notion that these are not "their" songs.

We've been working on learning some of them and incorporating them into events here in VA/NC.

[This message has been edited by Linda (edited 09-17-2002).]

[CoheeLady]

Dennis,
Regarding the Tuckahoe Plantation in Virginia, the people that oversee the Plantaion say that the term Tuckahoe isn't at all related to the Tuckahoe's. I called them & the lady said, "The Tuckahoe's have nothing to do with this Plantation, or the original owners of it!" She wanted me to know that being called a Tuckahoe was not a good thing. I have never heard that the original owner of Tuckahoe was a descendant of Pocahantas. However in Virginia people that are related to her, don't want anything to do with the rest of her descendants. Strange how people can pick & choose their ancestors. Just thought I would share my dealings with the Tuckahoe Plantation people!
CoheeLady

[clen99]

Linda--I have started learning Lenape (Algonkian) and Lakota (Siouxan) and a friend of mine pointed out that apparently there are/were crossovers in the language. "Health" and "happiness" in Lenape are 'welamalsewakan' and 'welatenamewakan' in which 'wakan' is clearly Lakota for "sacred." In Lakota "songs of the people" is "welateta'aloa" in which it would seem that 'welate' is clearly Algonkian. Just thought you might find this interesting.

Lee

[CoheeLady]

Dennis,
What's up with your statement, "mixed breed Tuckahoe bloodline"? I resent that comment, as you are disrespecting my family, by calling us mixed breeds. THESE ARE WORDS THAT WERE USED BY THE EUGENICS' MOVEMENT. Why don't you just say half-breed, as it means the same thing to us. We are human, not animals.

[Tom]

Cohee you couls be just abit more tactful , rather than jumping up and down you could just sate" yes we are mixed blood people" but then again aren't we all. Tom

[itconani]

are you trying to argue? id have to say the comment looks fairly benign. i think its rather obtuse to argue between mixed / half breed. especially if the comment looks to be said in this context.

[-cr21-]

Mixed-blood? What are you, a drink? LOL Either you're ndn or you're not. I don't want to see that twinkie saying it's whats in your heart either. If someone has to resort to racially insensitive comments .. I'll use nicer language here... "screw them".. you didn't chose your ancestors. Thats about all I have to say.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Hey...I am 100% Hillbilly even tho I know that this hillbilly is mixed with a little bit of white,& a little bit of black, & a little bit of NDN. I would not be able to have got to where I am today without every last one of those people. I don't know about you but a salad with just lettuce is boring but mix in some cucumbers, tomatoes, a little onion, greenpepper, and radish and you have a great salad. Be proud of who you are because it took a lot of brave people to get us where we are today.


------------------
Life is a Rainbow made up of Many Different Colors.....

[Linda]

The advantage of communicating in written form on a forum is that one has the time to cool down and say what needs to be said in a diplomatic and courteous way. The opposing impulse online is that one is alone in one's home and is tempted to "let it all hang out." It's this factor that reduces many forums to what resemble bar room brawls.

As was clear in the posting guidelines, this forum will stick to the former mode. There is always a way to express oneself without being provocative. You broke the peace, Cohee, it was unnecessary. Inflammatory posts have a way of disappearing around here.

[CoheeLady]

Dear Linda,
How is it that I "broke the peace"? I stated what was on my mind, not as a way to anger anyone, or to start a fight. That's not my style. Why is it ok for others to speak their mind & people like myself can't? The term BREED is a derogatory term, when used to describe people. This is not the same thing as Mixed-Blood. For many years I was called a half-breed, so my feelings were hurt when I read the post from Dennis.

If he or anyone else here prefers to call themselves mixed-breed, than that is their choice. Not the best choice of words, but this is America. My post was directed at Dennis, & no one else. If you wish to delete my post than go ahead, won't bother me at all.

I didn't realize that I couldn't speak my mind on this site. Without being bombarded by others that are angry with me. I say what I feel, & that I am not sorry for.
Sincerely,
CoheeLady
Take Care All & God Bless http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif

[Linda]

Everybody here jumped on you for it because everyone could see what you can't. You slammed the guy above and beyond anything he'd done to you. It's happened before, to more than a few of the people here, and they are tired of it.

[CoheeLady]

Linda,
The people that got angry with me, had no idea that Dennis & I have spoke over the phone, for a little over an hour, at my expense, I called him. We may disagree on some things, but we are still able to talk to one another.
CoheeLady

[Linda]

Why should they know? All anybody reading this will know is what's written here.

We did not see you speaking your mind. We saw you venting your emotion. There is a big difference. You are free to speak your mind and to SHARE your emotion here. But VENTING emotion on anyone here is not acceptable. Not for anyone.

I'm not going to argue about this any further.

[CoheeLady]

Linda,
I didn't know you were arguing with me, as I was not arguing with you, just talking. You said, "We did not see you speaking your mind". "We saw you venting emotions".
Definitions:
1. speak: To express opinions or emotions.
2. mind: What one thinks or intends, opinion, desire, purpose, etc.
3. emotion: Strong feeling.
4. feeling: An opinion or sentiment, emotion.
5. vent: expression; release
NOTE: TO ALL, I AM SORRY FOR MAKING ANYONE ANGRY.

[This message has been edited by CoheeLady (edited 09-19-2002).]

[vance hawkins]

hi Dennis Three Eagles & others.

You mention the Southern Cheyenne in another post. They are about 2 counties north of us. Are you anywhere near SW Oklahoma?

Ya know, if I have ever said anything that offended another, I appologize as that is never my intention -- I probably used the term "breed" too. I personally hate the term "Redskin" but some don't find it offensive.

I hate the term "Okie" because of the way my Dad talked about it -- Dad grew up in the great Depression of the 1930s -- they were very poor people & as with many others, lost their farm to the bank -- and I remember him sayin to be called an "Okie" back then "was fightin' words" [direct quote]and he meant it. He was a little man 5-7, most he ever weighted was 150 -- but tough as nails, a golden gloves boxer, ww2 veteran, and kindest man ever to walk the face of the earth. But he wouldn't take bein called "an Okie" from anyone.

But some Oklahomans today when asked will call themselves an "Okie". So if I find out someone is offended I hope to try to not use it again, but sometimes forget.

I'd really like to be able to meet everyone of yall, if we met face to face there is "body language" to help us know when we are jokin' around or serious. Without body language readin messages from the internet is like bein' blind in one eye, and the periferal vision is skewed.

vance

[This message has been edited by vance hawkins (edited 09-23-2002).]

[itconani]

i whole heartedly agree with you vance.

[Tom]

hey , are you two saying that you don't know when you are stepping in "it"?
The whole part of being adults is accepting when you have stepped out of line and how you handle it, if it's not intended to be aggresive fine but it's pretty plain what people write can be interpreted as out of line.
by the way Cohee Lady I do accept your apology, but I really don't think that you need to, I once wrote that finding your center is the best strength that you can have, find it, explore it and carry on; if someone uses a term that is offensive to you they'll catch on quick enough.
Tom

[vance hawkins]

Tom --

you said -- hey , are you two saying that you don't know when you are stepping in "it"?

Are you talkin to me? If so -- I'm sayin different cultures have "taboos" -- everybody knows that -- things to do and things not to do. Some call it ediquette. And it is not a constant, it is a variable, it varies from time to time, and from place to place.

vance

[clen99]

I think we need to all stop arguing and get back to the work at hand. Take a look at the photo I posted to "Shoot the Breeze" and tell me what you think. Also, does any body have suggestions for when one gets stuck or runs into a momentary dead end while researching? I have run into dead ends in every branch right now and could use some soothing advice.

Thanks,
Lee

[Tom]

Hello Vance, yes I directed my last posting to you and Buck. I believe that "etiquette", is rather none changing atleast in our life times, we know when we are being offensive and when we're not.
If you meet someone new to you, not from Indian country or someone from another generation that does not use the same lingo as I do we accept there position out of respect for those people, usually elders.
When was the word squaw ever acceptable to any native american person?
Traditions are made of many acceptable references to who we are amongst ourselves, and not by those from out side the culture, defining ourselves is what creates a culture with all of its norm's acceptable or not.
If you were a migrant into the area and did not know fine, but lets call a spade a spade, but lets also be adults and get on with it. Tom

[vance hawkins]

Hi Lee --
My genealogy research has been in four stages.

BEGINNIN --

I started with what I knew, from family stories to what's written in old Bibles. But I started out knowin' my g-g-grandparents who were born in the 1820s, and in a couple of cases g-g-g-grandparents born in 1790s. That much was passed down to us. This is step one.

INTERMEDIATE --

From there I went & ordered birth certificates, and looked in the census records. This is step two. My "White" ancestors are easier to trace and some can be traced to Europe even. This is mostly on my mothers side. Once you've gone as far as you can, this is the end of step two.

ADVANCED --

Check your surnames and the surnames of your ancestors that go to a "dead end" and compare them to surnames of all the Indian tribes in the area they were livin'. Find all yOu can about the tribe and region. Always remember three variables -- surnames, geographical location, and span of years your ancestors were there. Compare these three variables with historic documentation a tribe or band lived there. Look up Old Indian Rolls, go to NARA website and locations, and check out more data there. This is step three, and I think it is the hardest.

GRADUATION --

Once you have done all this and found "suffecient evidence" go to that tribeal headquarters, and talk to someone there, preferrably a genealogist. Please knnow most likely you are not eligible for enrollment even if you find a direct link, and this is hte fault of the BIA, not that tribe. If you go there humbly seekin' I'd bet there's a 98% chance they'll welcome you with open arms. But if you go there and the first thing you say is "I'm a Choctaw and want my Indian money" (or somethin like that) -- there's a 98% chance they've heard that 1000 times and will politely show you the exit.

I had heard 1,000 horror stories about how the Cherokee in Oklahoma were rude to the unenrolled -- but my experience was not like that at all -- they were friendly and as helpful as you could ever expect anyone to be. Maybe they had changed, I don't know the past. And we still can't go back to any particular rolls, but our surnames and old photos and the times and locations where we could show our ancestors were was enough. that's the end of stage four.

CONCLUSION --

No, we can not enroll even tho we have more Indian blood that some who are enrolled. But we can be friends, and we can learn from one another. That's about all I can hope for, I think.

I think it is of utmost importance for the unenrolled to strive for good relations with the members of the federally recognized tribe/s from which their ancestors came. This is for the sake of our kids & grandkids, not us, most likely. This is so that maybe one day they'll change their policies in some way.

vance

[This message has been edited by vance hawkins (edited 09-27-2002).]

[vance hawkins]

howdy Tom --

you said --

I believe that "etiquette", is rather none changing atleast in our life times, we know when we are being offensive and when we're not.

reply --

Tom, there are 2 bands of Apache livin near here -- Ft. Sill Apache and Apache tribe of oklahoma -- one has about 500 members and the other about 3,000. Know why they slit up? One group wanted land and the other took the money, when their lands were carved up. You can go to a local Pow-Wow TODAY and members of those 2 bands STILL do not talk to each other.

My mother has always said about my dad's relatives that they'd hold a grudge for years, never forgiving one another, and I have seen that is true. Tom, I wanna break out of that mold and be able to forgive, and want that same forgiveness from others. So much for nonchanging customs -- they change, friend. It is too easy to let something petty happen, and something I see as no big deal might be a big deal to someone else.

you said --

If you meet someone new to you, not from Indian country or someone from another generation that does not use the same lingo as I do we accept there position out of respect for those people, usually elders.

reply --

Tom, I am new to you, and I am 50 years old. I am from Indian Country also (there are the headquarters of 8 federally recognized tribes within an hours drive of here). Where are you from? You say that you accept someone elses position (like mine?) but I gave my position and you have decided NOT TO accept it. hmmm . . . Do what you say you do and we'll do fine together http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif ha ha.

you said --

When was the word squaw ever acceptable to any native american person?

reply -- it was acceptable until recently -- Squaw Creek runs through Lawton, Ok. Lawton is the headquarters of Comanche Tribe. I have never heard anyone ever complain about it, and I go to Lawton every week, just about. I have not said if I disagree or agree, I am only stating what I see.

you said --

Traditions are made of many acceptable references to who we are amongst ourselves, and not by those from out side the culture, defining ourselves is what creates a culture with all of its norm's acceptable or not.

reply --

that is my stance & is basically what I said.

you said --

If you were a migrant into the area and did not know fine, but lets call a spade a spade, but lets also be adults and get on with it. Tom

reply --

ditto -- what do migrants have to do with anything? Some of my best friends are Mexican, born and bred. Neighbors can disagree, you don't have to be a foreigner. I think it is rude to drink beer in public but some people do it -- you don't have to be a foreigner to have customs that vary from your neighbor.

vance

[This message has been edited by vance hawkins (edited 09-27-2002).]

[This message has been edited by vance hawkins (edited 09-27-2002).]

[Tom]

Hello Vance, well yes you are probably correct in everything that you say, but I also said "lets just get on with it".
I hope that this talk will end and we can do some really constructive work, some where I forgot to pay attention to the rules of the forum to stay on "topic",(which was the tuckahoe plantation).
Iam ending this discussion , hold your ground and one day I look forward to meeting you, until then thank you and have a great day, Tom.

[itconani]

moving on in the agenda.
note for clarity, previous posts of agreeing went to vance on internet ambiguity of non verbal communication..
thanks

[Tom]

Very funny Buck!