Tuckahoe's & Cohee's

[CoheeLady]

Hello All,
My ancestors were known to be called Tuckahoe's & Cohee's, on my mother's side. One of my family surnames that were known to be Tuckahoe & Cohee were the CASH, the other is either Turner or Garrett. My family is European & American Indian. The European part is mostly French. I found a book in the Va. state library, titled Tuckahoe's & Cohee's of Virginia. So I didn't grow up hearing this term, I was only told we were Indian, Cherokee. The book states that my family was the first "white people" to live in Indian land. So why were they called Indians by using the two terms? Sounds like someone was trying to hide their true & complete ancestry when the book was written! http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/wink.gif We have a ancestor, whom is not in my direct line, but is the brother of a direct ancestor, his name is Powhatan Cash. On the marrriage bond of my great, great,great grandfather & mother is written "INTERMARRIAGE". Neither person was African American. One was a Cash, the bride was a Patterson.
CoheeLady

[Linda]

Run a search (upper right hand corner) on the word Tuckahoe. I've heard it here before.

[CoheeLady]

Linda,
Just a short note to say thanks for responding to my post. http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif
CoheeLady

[Linda]

Did you drop a line to Vance and ask him to look at this thread?

[CoheeLady]

Linda,
I did email Vance, but my email was rejected. So if you could get in contact with him for me, it may help. Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
CoheeLady

[Linda]

Maybe I've got a more recent email for him. Seems like I've been able to contact him.

[vance hawkins]

hi -- this e-mail did get through. There needs to be a-nemail site that serves the same function as "change of address" forms. Is there?

I was told the same thing -- Tuckahoe -- about our "Richey" surname. Seen Ricjey's who said their ancestors were both "Blackfoot" & "Tuckahoe". I did a search for "Tuckahoe" on the internet and found a lot to speculate about, but nothing solid. It said "Tuckahoe" was a wild tubor the Indians of the Chesapeak region ate, said it grew up & down the Eastern Costal regions from NY to NC or thereabout, maybe elsewhere. It was a major food source for the Indians, perhaps the origin of the "Wild Potato Clan", I don't know.

Another place it said some folks were called "Tuckahoes" as a sort of derogatory term for poor Irish farmers, usually indentured servants, temporary slaves I guess thy were. But it said people of mixed race but were free might also be called "Tuckahoes". We've been told our Richey's came from Ireland, so that fits us, I guess.

Also "Tuckahoe" was the name of a son of Cherokee "Chief Doublehead" and was known to have been as far north as Kentucky with the Chickamauga who allied with the Miami & others in Little Turltle's war. It is said "Tuckahoe's" mother was "Algonquin", which would mean not of Soiuxian stock, maybe Shawnee or somethin like that, some Algonquin tribe. But there were other Algonquin people's in Virginia, correct me if I am wrong, I think Pamunkey, & others I forget at present?? Maybe somebody else knows.

our family surnames that came from Virginia or nearby to Va (that we know of) -- Richey, Wayland, Wood, Dickson.

vance hawkins

[vance hawkins]

howdy again --

I am not farmiliar with teh term "Cohee" -- can you explain it? wa-do.

also I think I heard "Johnny Cash" was mixed-Cherokee, don't know details, tho.

vance

[-cr21-]

There were actually over 30 algonquin tribes in Virginia before Jamestown. Most of them were subjects of or a small part of the Powhatan Chiefdom.
The word Tuckahoe actually comes from a crude spelling of an alogonquin word for mushroom... it means that which is round.

[This message has been edited by -cr21- (edited 08-02-2002).]

[CoheeLady]

To cr21,
The word Tuckahoe was recorded as being a root that grew at the base of certain trees along the coast. This was a food source of the Indians of the area. Also my ancestor's were Tuckahoe's.
Sincerely,
CoheeLady

[-cr21-]

Tuckahoe like i said is a word for a mushroom.. the ndns used it for starchs. The word tuckahoe as a tribal sense is not true..common misconception.The word tuckahoe is of algonquin origin; it is a corruption of the Algonquin word ptuckweoo, a descriptive adjective meaning "it is round". Although the geographic range of the Algonquin Indians extended from Canada to Cape Hatteras, this word was restricted to the southern region of their territory. The reason for this you will soon understand.

Before the arrival of the first white settler ( Jonas Bronck, 1693) in the New York area, an important Indian village was located along the west bank of what is now called the Bronx River, just opposite the present day Bronxville and Tuckahoe. The inhabitants were the Weckquaeskeck Indians and they called their village Aquehung and the river Aquahung. Although the Weckquaeskecks were Algonquins they spoke a dialect known as Wappinger. As you can now see, Tuckahoe was not the name of this Indian village or tribe, as most people think.




[This message has been edited by -cr21- (edited 08-04-2002).]

[CoheeLady]

To: cr21,
My ancestor's & I are from Virginia, not up North. Some of them lived in the 1600's in Westmoreland & Stafford county, in Stafford they lived in Aquia. They moved to the mountains calling themselves Tuckahoe's & Cohee's. I never said that Tuckahoe was a tribe. So I guess they just called themselves mushrooms? Not the case.
Sincerely,
CoheeLady

[Tom]

Hello Cohee Lady, Iam sure that you are not a mushroom, but Iam sure most advice given in one way or another fits the topic, if it clicks then consider it to confirm what you already know if it's new then your like the rest of us just here to share and learn. BTA, Tom

[CoheeLady]

Hello Tom,
I do enjoy eating mushrooms! http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif My point needed to be expressed.
CoheeLady

[vance hawkins]

Thanks Tom, I appreciate any thing I can learn.

[Tom]

Hello All, now that I have some time to write a short note, I'd first like to say that Iam from up north, Canada in fact and although some might call me a Yankie I can assure you that most western Canadians are not loyalists.
Also one realy valid point was made re. some thing "round" like many American indian words it is a descriptive term, just like in English, Re the tailed Hawk, tells you what it is before id'ing it. American Indian languages are termed as being precise. Very little in any other language(s) are as precise.
Also we may never know the exact origins of the words that we use like the word tuckahoe it refers to many types of starch type foods but mainly for a large tuberous plant found near water, if a family has identified themselves as Tuchahoes then just go along with it,perhaps it was an important food source for them long after other people dropped it from use; like the word Haliwa, everyone now applies the term to a division or tribe of American Indian people,and maybe they always were the Haliwas since this is a northern souian word for what we in Canada call muskrat root, a very valued medicine, known as Acorus calamus.
Being a northerner does not disqualify me from my heritage, infact I know that many people have given up the distinction of beinng from the southern Blackfoot, when they still live in the south.
In time many will see that we all have apart of the picture , when our ancestors hit the wind they all took a part of what was imprtant to them, a part of the old tribal community collective of our community.
If you feel as though you have a valuable point please make it, but do not down play or try to disqualify anyone elses view, there's no point in allowing those old heads to still keep a hold on things by allowing their short comings to be come ours.
All the best to my fellow readers and a big Thank you to Linda and her helpers for the forum, Tom

[CoheeLady]

Tom,
I didn't say, nor did I make any reference as to those in the North & their heritage. I can only speak for my self & family of Virgina & other states that they moved to, or were "removed to Georgia" for one. I thought my mushroom joke was funny, but I guess you didn't get it. If my ancestors ate this root then they most likely were Indian. That would explain why the term was carried on into the mountains of Va..

I thank you for your permission tom, to make my valid points, as you put it. I however don't need anyone's permission to speak my mind & the truth. Why do you feel I am "down playing or trying to disqualify other's views?" I assume you mean no matter what I say you will not see it as fact? Why must you try to make one feel not welcome? I have enough trouble with people face to face, with there ignorant comment's about my long straight black hair, etc., etc...

CoheeLady
Take care & God Bless you all

[Tom]

Hello Cohee Lady, you should not be offened like I said we are all here to learn and share,perhaps you feel abit defensive , you don't need to be with me, I mean you no harm.
I would like to hear more about the removal to Georgia though, sounds almost revrsal of what has happened. You donot need my permission to make any point just share what you know and be proud of what you know.
I don't know to much about racial problems due to long black hair, but maybe people are picking up on something else. All the Best Tom

[CoheeLady]

Hello Tom,
The reference I made to my hair, was that people always ask me if I'm ever going to cut it! Simply I say no. http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif I have strangers come up to me & ask me things like "Your Indian aren't you"?, or "What tribe are you with"? Some people are nice others are rude. I know they don't mean to be. I now say thank you, when someone notices my features. I did asked one man if it was just my hair that made him think I was Indian, his answer was no. The older I get the more comments are made to me. The nicest complement I got was from a man my husband talks to every morning at the store where he gets his morning coffee. One day I went with my husband, and he introduced me to his friend. He looked in the car with a big smile on his face, and said "you've got Indian in ya, I can see it". I said thank you, & so do you. We talked while my husband got coffee. When my husband & I left, I asked him how come he never told me his friend was Indian, he said he never noticed!

You wanted me to tell you more about the removal to Georgia so here's the story. One of my ancestor's,either direct or a brother of my direct line,was in the civil war along with other brothers. After the war was over, the Gov. refused to pay him. They came up with a stupid reason, since he was sick or was injured & then went back to serve, they considered him as being absent for a short time. So this was their reason behind lack of payments for his duty. I have a copy of this information, & after they refused him money, it says, "Removed to Georgia". He however did come back to Virginia later on, as did other family members. I still don't know yet if this was just a way of saying he had moved to Georgia, by using the term "removed to Georgia." As I have done research in Mass., which dated back to the late 1600's, and this term "removed to", was used back then. Instead of saying moved to, people said removed to. People have assumed that the Cash's of Virginia were related to the Salem, Mass. Cash family, but they are not. As the Salem, Mass. Cash family were from Scotland, but our family isn't at all related. Took me a long time to figure that one out! A lot of people don't want to believe it, but that's their problem.

Tom, I hope I have answered your questions. I shall look forward to hearing from you again. Take care & God Bless
Sincerely,
CoheeLady

[vance hawkins]

I'm not so sure the term Tuckahoe meant "Indian" exclusively -- like I said from doin' an internet search on "Tuckahoe" it said in the early days of Virginia it was a derogatory term used to describe poor white Irish folks AND those of mixed heritage, perhaps bi or triracial.

What I'm about to say, it isn't directed at anybody but me, okay? good.

Bein unenrolled is hard, guys. We are always tryin to "prove" our lineage. Its a struggle to "find a place to belong". So once we prove something we're so happy we shout it to the world, which in turn can turn some people off. Ya want to "belong". Hearin the word "Wannabe" hurts. Bein so eager to believe and finally find our roots makes us the perfect target for folks who wanna pray on us & tell us things that are not true about our ancestors. We WANT to believe we have finally found them, so we'll believe what we hear.

I wanted to belong really bad so I joined some of the tribes of unenrolled (that's right, plural, more than one -- did that 2 or 3 years & got dissolusioned). I realized some people were telling me so & so were my ancestors, and that made me related to them. But sometimes they were just makin it up & I eventually learned I could prove it, too. I quit bein on the defensivewith these self-proclaimed "Chiefs". I realized I'd shown these folks my g-g-g-grandparents, but I still didn't know theirs.

So last few years I've been in the stage where I thought to help the unenrolled I had to talk about the "fake tribes" with their "fake chiefs"& such the same way the enrolled folks do.

Well, I think I'm over that, now. I'm tired of full-bloods turnin their noses up at 1/2 bloods, who in turn, turn their noses up at 1/8th-bloods, and the enrolled turnin their noses up at the unenrolled, although in the case of Cherokee there are enrolled 1/64th bloods who turn their noses up at unenrolled 1/8th blood folks!

We are so out-numbered -- 100 to one -- we gotta quit doin that. If I've done that I appologize here & now. I'm 50 years old, & wanna get closer to my relations from 200 years ago, not farther. ya don't live forever, ya know . . .

best wishes & adios for now--
vance hawkins

[This message has been edited by vance hawkins (edited 08-06-2002).]

[This message has been edited by vance hawkins (edited 08-06-2002).]

[CoheeLady]

Vance,
Hello & hope you are doing fine. The term Tuckahoe is not one in which I base my Indian ancestry on. I put more merit on the term Cohee's. My grandmother told me as a child that we were Indian, as her father had passed this on to my mother. It was never discussed except for that one statement, that our ancestry included Indian, Cherokee. I however at a young age was proud of what my grandmother had told me about our family. I didn't question her, as there was no need to. I always talked about it, as I am the one that told my brother, he of course didn't believe it.

I understand it is hard to be unenrolled, and always trying to prove to other's what you know to be fact. We are always questioned, but we never question other's as to their proof. As we respect them. If people could stop using the term "Indian Blood", we could go forward. As this term separates us still. No one can be related to just one American Indian. There is really no way to break down your Indian ancestry with the use of fractions, as in 1/16 etc., as most families have more than one ancestor that is Indian. The Indian population is large, we are not a minority even though it seems that way. I have met so many people that have said, "Well I'm not enough Indian to claim it". I just tell them why not claim what you know? You don't need to be on a reservation to be Indian, nor do you have to be a member of a tribe. Your ancestry is something that can never be taken, no matter what people say.

You said the term Tuckahoe could mean poor Irish, mixed, bi, triracial people. My family that were known as Tuckahoe's, were not Irish, nor were they African American. So that leaves mixed as in European & Indian.

Vance, you said that one of your family names is WOOD, so here is a little information. The Wood family married into my family, Nelson county, Virginia. They are not my direct ancestors, but related by marriage. They are connected to our Turner & Cash side of the family. The Wood family are still in the same area, as they run the little post office in Wingina, Virginia. I don't know if this is part of your family, but I thought I would let you know, just in case. http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif
Take care
Sincerely,
CoheeLady

[itconani]

geez - heated debates! sorry i missed it.
ive said this before, some of you may recall - its hard to talk on here without inflections of voice and tone. sometimes i read into stuff when there is nothing to see.
a cool head and a straight explanation seems to help. nuff said on that.

tuckahoe in virginia is an edible starchy tuber (as has been stated). its "arrow arrum"
in latin. tasty but not very exciting. takes time to process to get out the oxalic accids.
also very easy to taint food supply as it gobbles up pollutants as a filter to marshlands.

ive got a friend who had tuckahoe as a designation for ancestory as well. "1/2 irish and tuckahoe indian" the old journal was written. we always joked and said ole geoff was a sweat potatoe. never did find out what that was all about - but have now met several who've stated the same.

vance - since youve done so well with your cherokee work (i remember) have you ever thought about a CDIB? thats usually the route oklahoma indians use if there not enough of one tribe to meet blood quota. just curious.
best
b

[Tom]

Hey Y'all ,so glad that everyone is chatting. To All thank you for sharing.
Let me say that belonging to a particular groups is not such a big deal, lots of folks think that I just belong to this really big white tribe, well I said no not really I have connections to other communities aswell, even today I met a local woman from kentucky that says her adopted Mother, my responce was not so enchanting, just be who you are and everything will fall into place.
I do not want anyone telling me who Iam, I know who Iam I don't need cards or numbers or any other post apocalyptic reference to my identity, who started this card thing anyway, I am sure that Columbus didn't have plastic that early.
All the best to all of you, hang in there, don't let the "#####" grind you down and "Boogie 'till ya puke" Tom.

[Linda]

Vance, I really appreciate your confession as a former wannabe bashing hypocrite. The world is filled with them and it is a mighty addiction. Think we may need a 12 step program, and glad to see somebody making that first step. hehehe.

I'm hitting the big 5-0 myself anyday now. Lost 5 pounds in the past few weeks to help me through the transition. Helps bolster that "I'm not getting older. I'm getting younger and slimmer" delusion.

[vance hawkins]

Itconani --

you mentioned CDIB -- I didn't think you could get a CDIB card without being a tribal member -- my ancestors were both Old Settler (Looney & Guess(t) surnames)& Reservation & Mulay Roll (Brown surname, & Looney maybe) Cherokee.

I know on BIA website it records 4 types of Cherokee, Western (Ok), Keetoowah (UKB), Eastern (NC), & it lists a 4th, everyone else! Since the BIA website says there are more Cherokee, I asked them about that once in an e-mail but they never replied. So I e-mailed them again and they didn't reply again. I might have e-mailed them a third time . . . But since they admit there are more Cherokee, maybe it is possible, I don't know & didn't know that you could do that. I will e-mail them again and ask, but I don't know if they will reply.

Linda -- Now Linda I never was not claimed to be a "wannabe bashing hypocrite" -- that was NEVER my deed nor intention. I WANNABE helpful to the unenrolled so I want everyone to dig deeper, and not give up with a little adversity. I have found ancestors tht I can't trace easily are the Indian ones, and it is probably a good sign you can't trace them past a certain date. I cna trace all my knonwn European Ancestors to Europe, but those with Indian or suspected Indian ancestors just pop up and don't appear related to others with that surname in that area.

The first advise I got from anyone was fake tribes wanting membership. They told me what I wanted to hear.

Amonsoquath told me I was directly descended from Pocahantas! But I asked them point blank for the documentationas I wanted to tell the world. But they refused to provide it. I gradually came to believe they were lying to me. If they tell me they have this documentation, then why will they not provide it?

I joined Texas Cherokee (Tsalagiyi Nvdagi) and know what, they didn't ask me for any documentation at all! I asked them and next thing I know my Roll # & membership card came in the mail (for a $35 fee, of course).

I joined Northern Cherokee Nation of Old Lousiana Territory (NCNOLT) -- or I thought I did anyhow -- I sent them a $35 fee also. as well as 20 pounds of documentation, but I never heard from them again. And I heard this same story from literally 50 people in e-mail. If 50 emailed me, how many others are they scamming?

Lastly, Southern Cherokee (Gary Ridge's group) -- they never asked for money and require documentation -- BUT he's always wantin and talkin about a casino. And they give out their own CDIB cards, everyone it turns out is 1/2 Cherokee, who joins them.

As a result of those experiences, as as a result of talkin to Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma officials who were very friendly and as helpful as the could be by the way, I felt sorry for CNO, not those groups. They told be "do you have any idea how much mail they get from people, or how many people show up with a fake CDIB or fake tribal membership card some fake tribe prints up, and ask only one thing -- "Where do I pick up my Indian money?" That is how they see it.

They - the leaders of these groups -- KNOW Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma can NOT admit them as members just like other tribes as criteria. But they use CNO as the universal scapegoat for their failure. "We can't get federal recognition for our people? Well, It's CNOs fault! They make the BIA fail us! They did it!"

I went to ALL the groups out there I could find & told them Chad Smith is changing Cherokee policy to the unenrolled -- and he tried to at first -- and you know what EVERY GROUP OUT THERE did? NOTHING! They spewed out a continual "I hate CNO" campaign that never ended and is still goin on. So CNO put their feelers to the unenrolled "on hold" and they aren't actively tryin to do anything any more. I don't think the average unenrolled Cherokee realize the damage their leaders did to them.

So I only tried to help the unenrolled, and the leaders of these fake tribes would have none of it. Our pastor has told us he is an "irritant", as to be irritated is the only way to spur people to action. I was thinkin "that's what I've tried to do".

I thought by "hangin out" with enrolled folks, and helpin them see which groups of unenrolled were truly led by good people, and which were con-men -- that they would respect the unenrolled more. That is what I wanted to see done. I think we did some good, too & I think the unenrolled should get out from under the control of people who are "Chief for Life", those whose "Tribal Lands" are on deeds with their own name on them, and those like them.

But then I also told those CNO officials things they didn't wanna hear just like I did the unenrolled.

Well, I realize now nobody wanted to listen to what I had to say, and all I did was irritate, annoy, and get swatted, as would a buzzing fly. All I was sayin in my previous message was I was gonna quit bein that irritant, that pesky mosquito, as I've done it long enough. If anyone wants to take up the mantle, here it is, run with it, but I am tired of it.

I was not wrong in what I did as it needed to be done and someone needs to do it. I appologize for not bein able to make it understood what I was tryin to do.

It is obvious by what you said -- callin me a "wannabe bashing hypocrite" -- you didn't understand it, either. Someone has to be willin to say the hard things or we life in a dreamworld.

I have only pride in what I wanted to see done and how I was advisin people, but I have only shame in not bein able to do it and not bein able to convince others what I was doin was the right course.

vance hawkins

[This message has been edited by vance hawkins (edited 08-08-2002).]

[vance hawkins]

I need a disclaimer

ps -- I do not speak for Chad Smith nor for the Cherokee Nation -- my words are my own and no one elses, they cover my own experiences in dealin with them & others.

vance

[CoheeLady]

Dear Vance,
I am one person that did understand your post, & everything you have done. I didn't think you were an ex-wannabe. Don't give up your fight, because people like you are very important. You don't stand alone, as long as I'm around!
Sincerely,
CheeLady

[Linda]

My apologies. I should have known better than to use the "W" word. I meant it tongue and cheek, not in reference to you or your behavior. I've just seen such an overload of this hypocrisy with one slamming another, whose slamming yet another. Your stand in all this is refreshing and admirable, as is the hard work you've done to try and better the situation.

[Tom]

Hello All, well before I start I want to say this, read this posting as it is not attached to any previous postings, just read it as though it were a short bio.
During 1980 I had joined the Metis assoc. of Alberta , no fees and they sent me a card no 1171 or so, my fellow class mates and friends in the NAtive Cultural arts programs laughed aloud and said we don't even have one of those. I was self assured for all the world I had proof that my family heritage was now proven, I had a card.
years went by and I still had that card in my wallet, I had attended all of the Bannock corporation meetings and for once Metis were finally going to see some "results".
Moving ahead was meaning getting some where, well times didn't change, nothing came along with that card that made me feel any better about who I was.
I had remebered people that I had respected asking me "what the hell is wrong with you", my attitude well and surely sucked, I was not white atleast I didn't relate to those types of people around me, the Indian people often had problems relating to me and my fellow Metis friends said just be your self no need for cards, Id numbers etc, "it's inside that counts".
Well after 20 plus years they are right, my heritage is my birth right, not for anyone to judge or ratify the Lord did that when he gave me life.
My Indian ness if that what you want to call it comes from an inherited biological connection and not that little card that I was given.
I have been through many ceremonies and a sundance or two and several other events, and none have been as full filling as that small place inside myself that I had to find where no one can touch me, it's not an indian place it not English, it is uniquley mine and it is how I define my plurality to creation that gives me strgnth to stand up and be counted for, it's the strenght that was given to me when my seven ancestors sang me into exisitence.
Find the peace inside yourself and you will find that place that allows you to accept who you are , you won't need cards or papers, you won't need anyone to recognize you as a Native American, you just need to recognize yourself as one of the Creators children, that in it self is more powerful than any out side device that you can find, it is your strength your,spirit, your soul, the power that is uniquely your own.
When the universe expodes infront of you it's because it did so inside of you, giving you life .
All the Best, Tom

[CoheeLady]

Dear Tom,
Your words of wisdom regarding a card & not needing others to recognize you as American Indian, are very true. I have said the very same thing to other's. It took me awhile to find that inner peace & knowing that what I am is only mapped out by the very existance of my ancestor's before me. Not by a card, or by the state or fed. gov., nor by those that still think they can measure "Indian Blood". It's ancestry not our blood, as this type of talk is reserved for the English. Thank you for sharing. Take care & God Bless.
Sincerely,
CoheeLady

[Linda]

What comforts and compels me in all this is the sense that there are some very real folks out there on the other side, family, Old Ones, who are very interested in what we are doing with this, are enabling it, are very attached to us, have a lot to offer, and expect things from us.

It's kind of like a story Marianne Williamson (A Course in Miracles lecturer) tells. Somebody was complaining they only had a small part in a play. Marianne asked her what her part was. The lady said she was playing beauty and light. Which Marianne thought was very amusing. We all think we just have a little bit to do, we aren't much, but our small parts in reality are really awesome.

This is how I feel about the card issue. It's just a lot of trifling compared to the real story, for me, that's unfolding. I don't want to waste my time chasing my tail after some concatenated corruption. I just want to learn how to listen to those Folks who are trying to tell me something. That's the thrill of a lifetime.

When I come across some of those BIA recognized Indians who are interested in the same thing, know something about how to go about it and are willing to share, then, yeah, if I'm super lucky they're my new best friends. But most of the other issues I hear being discussed is off topic to me.

I know some folks' rights and well being are caught up in those issues. I'm not qualified to comment on any of it, although I am trying to understand it. But in all honesty, I don't have a dog in that fight.

As for me and the legitimacy issue, I'd like to see somebody prove beyond doubt that I don't believe I've got these mischievous Old Ones out here trying to teach me a thing or two. My rights and privileges come under the freedom of religion laws in this power grid, not any bureacracy handling Indian affairs. We skipped town on those clerks a couple hundred years ago.

[CoheeLady]

Linda,
Well said. http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif

[itconani]

the card issue is an interesting one.
created by the government for the indian governments modeled after the government,
enrollment cards have always had to do about land, money, and benefits - and who gets what being tossed our way. its a completely ridiculous concept, and very racist.

however, it has become an issue of selfishness. tribes who enjoy some liberties only want to share their cut with their club.
tribes who want more liberties sometimes want more club memebers to increase their standing in whatever realm.
organizations who are in indian identity crisis look to have club members who are more "part of the club than not"
etc etc etc

Somewhere along the line, some identity isssues were raised and someone discussed
who had the right to speak for the people.
"who is in the club?"

suddenly, all non federal tribes decided they best get their club clothes on - and start imitating the puppet system. then they could say "we're in the club" weve got band cards -
they have our state seal too, they chimed!

What purpose do non federal cards serve?
they can be used as id for taxes, employment, grants, and special monies - if requirements are not specifically for "federal indians".
however they do not serve the purpose of recieving benefits from the Bureau (the reason the federal ones were originally issued) its a sick, terrible cycle.
it is one that is a reality, where money is king.

VANCE -
last note - CDIB papers were created for people like yourself(?)
individuals that either A)did not meet enrollment requirements b/c of blood quantum issues (1/32 etc), but were still easily documented as being descended from known indian blood or B)were very indian, maybe even full blood, but did not have enough blood quantum of one tribe to make enrollment. you can see how this is going to be a huge problem in oklahoma in about 100 yrs or sooner.
the bureau created CDIBs to identify these individuals who may qualify for some services
or allotments (funds, rations, land etc)

[Tom]

Hello, the bottom line is money with this, not respect, "they" keep more records on who's who than on themselves. The best way to deal with those people is not at all. Tom

[Linda]

I agree.

[Tom]

Hello Everyone, well since I have sometime, I thought that I'd stop in , this "card issue" is always a hot topic. Sometimes I think that it would be nice to say yes "____________"that's the name of our band and other times I think not , but the bottom line is where I feel most comfortable.
I have many family members that are status Indians, several that are Cree/ Metis and many more that are just like me, but the one thing that binds us all is that we all live out our lives in quiet desperation, seeking solice in all that we do.
So I guess what we all should remember is this, " Gloably we are all indigenous and we are all aboriginal". Best wishes to All, Tom.

[Walkingbear]

Dear Vance
I would like to thank you for your kind words and inspirations about people
talking about others. We are all part of our mother earth and should thank
The Great Spirit every day for the chance of being of the Human Race. Not only are we Indian by blood we are first Brothers and Sisters. I consider anyone that feels in their heart that they are of Indian Blood they are. And as far as wanabees there is no such thing.
Thank You
Walking Bear

[vance hawkins]

Bein from and livin in Oklahoma, I have no choice but to interact with enrolled Indian peoples -- I can not just say "just go away" and "I don't want anything to do with them". I have friends -- some of Quanah's Parker's relatives used to attend the same church my parents went to when I was a child -- we have neighbors who are Kiowa, Comanche, and other tribes. Sometimes I drive 50 miles just to attend a Church -- an Indian Church where they sind some hymns in the Kiowa language.

If I as 1/8th blood live here & make a big deal about my Indian blood someone in a group of 10 people will say "you don't have much Indian blood, do you?" On the other hand, If I don't make anything of it AT ALL until I have been around a person a month or two, and THEN say "I'm mixed-blood." They'll always say "I know. I can tell." or somethin like that. That's why I wanna meet people in person that I talk to online, but really never get to do so. That's a shame. Sometimes I've tried to set meetins up online, but then start arguin or somethin and it never happens.

I was wantin and still want, enrolled and unenrolled to be friends and it is somethin I can do, a role I have tried to play, since I am from here and have full-blood neighbors.

When I got out of the Army in 1974, I got drunk, and was on the edge of my home town, A group of guys gettin drunk saw me and I got in their car and we were still drinkin'. Out side of town 2 guys started arguin and got out of the car. Stupid me, I got between them, put one hand on one guys chest and one on the other guy, pushed them apart and told them to stop it. Well, both got mad at me, and I ended up takin off runnin through a wheat field. I still haven't learned that lesson, but it seems to be a recurring lesson, and is seldom far from me.

But the US government by creatin their criteria has created emnity between enrolled and unenrolled people, and has us at each others throats sometimes, when that shouldn't be the case. Heritage can be like beer and make us drunk to what is goin on around us, so both enrolled and unenrolled have to keep that in mind.

We should be friends and shouldn't have to spend hundreds of dollars and years of rsearch just to prove who we are. That's just not fair.

If I said my ancestors were German and Scots-Irish (which they are) no one would question it. But say they are also Cherokee/Shawnee/Chickasaw/Creek/Saponi (we have links to all these lines) and people will look at you and make you prove it.

Just be who you are, let everyone see who you are over a period of time and maybe they'll accept it.

vance hawkins

[Linda]

Maybe we should call you Fight breaker.

I saw a list of names of people in a tribe, once, I don't remember where, but these folks had a very droll sense of humor. It's like there was a guy with a name like "Sleeps with too many women, has no taste," or another like "Talks too much, says nothing" Kind of sounded like Roseanna was in the tribe and did the naming. Very acerbic. Expressive too. You definitely got to prevailing mood with that crew.

Off the subject, but it came to mind.

[CoheeLady]

Hey Linda & Vance,
How about calling Vance, "One who makes peace". http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif

CoheeLady

[Charles Orear]

I have a Patterson in one of my lines also.They were from New Kent Co and lived next to the Pamunkies in the 1690-1720's.They moved to the Brunswick VA area circa 1730-1740. One of the Pattersons was in trouble in New Kent Co for having a "Mulatto" child.The Pattersons intermarried with the Pulliams and Wynn(e) families also of New Kent Co.I am descended from all three families.The Wynn family of New Kent were the same as the Wynn family of traders to the "Carolina Indians" around 1707-1720 era.I believe all these families later had land on the Blackwater.Interesting note that the surname Wynn is common amoung the "surviving" Pamunkies of today. My Grandpa and his family all contend that the Pulliams were fullblooded Indians from NC.They lived in Granville Co NC during the REV War and that area later became Franklin Co. My Pulliam ancestor that came to MO between 1827-1829 from there had the name of Chinchen.

I was told by my grandpa that was his Indian name and it was pronounced like key-chin.His mother knew this man and said he was 100% indian. Attached is a photo of Alfred Pulliam born 1845 in Mo, son of Chinchen and his wife Margaret Statler.

http://www.saponitown.com/images/pulliam1.jpg

Margaret told my grandpa she was Black Dutch.The Statlers came down out of Pa into Mecklinberg Co NC circa 1750 and were amoung the first white settlers west of the Catawba River. The Statlers came to MO with a large group of german speaking Moravians in 1800 and recieved Spanish Land Grants.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Charles, Do you happen to have a Samuel Patterson in your files? My ggggrandma on my mother's side was Abigail PATTERSON who is believed to have been the daughter of Samuel Patterson per her marriage record to John PERRY. The record only states that her parents came from Virginia. One only needs to look at my grandma Mollie PERRY to see the Indian.

Also I was searching through my ROARK files and found a son of John Roark listed as David Tuckahoe Roark. John's daughter Mary married my gggrandfather Richard COLLINS