nottoway, weanoke, nansemond

[itconani]

there have been a variety of surnames tossed around in connection with these groups. i dont know if there has been a comprehensive study on the many linneages - i know my research in this area is still on going. there have been several papers published over the years and there are some extant documents concerning the Nottoway, non - christian nansemond, chowanoke, weanoke, and other small neighbor splinters.

the relative locality to these groups is important when considering all of the movements all indians made after contact. their relation to the "saponi" or any indian group in southside Virginia / Carolina should be understood because of the numbers offset by influx of europeans and africans.

ill try and input references if nessesary - but all and all hoping to see some input concerning the surname data. i think it is interesting to consider how usual token names are dropped when considering "indian" descent (ie: cherokee, blackfoot, sioux, etc.) and how unusal it is to have individuals with very little knowledge of indian history / culture discuss their descent from XYZ tribe. what i mean to say, is sometimes it bears looking into when a typical comment of "my ggreat grandmother was a Cherokee princess" is put differently: "my family has always said we were Kaw indians" or "grandpa always said we were Kickapoo". hence whenever i meet someone who tosses out "my family was rumored to have been [Nottoway] or [Weapamoc]" i listen a little closer. of course this means very little, but i think it is often and indication of some merit.

Among the names i have seen in relation to this area from over 3 centuries:

Bartlett, Skiper, Edwards, Harrison, Peter,
Scoller, Wanoke, Hines, Will, Turner, Bailey , Rogers, Scholar, Woodson, Beasely, Hoyter, Pushin, Reading, Robins, Bennett, Wiggins, Lamb, Step, Winoek

These names are by no means complete and represent only a portion of what is (may) be available for quick reference.
There are others that need more insight, better documentation, and research. While i feel a strong oral tradition and migration patterns are good resources - sometimes there is no more.

[Forest]

Robins (Robbins)and Bennett are identified as Indian in Gates county up to around 1800 in some of the apprentice records. Usually identified in land records as "Chowan Indians" The Robbins family among the modern Meherrin comes from the Gates county group. I have long felt that a relationship between the Nansemond, Nottoway, Meherrin, and Chowan could be demonstrated using both historical records and genealogical information. The Bizzle name, which occurs as Indian in both the Nansemond area and the Meherrin community is one example. Given the fact that a couple dozen or so folks were counted as Indian in 1870 in the area of the Nottoway Reservation, there are almost certainly descendants still in the area today.

[itconani]

Indeed. it would seem that several groups have blended over the course of time - this to include groups that do not have representation at this time. for instance "turner" from nottoway is a meherin surname, one counted by the current chief. additionally, "wineok robin" is probably a form of Weanoke that settled amongst same. Cecilia Rogers was a Nansemond married to a John turner (nottoway) at the turn of 1800.

i remember some people from Charles City, Prince George, and Surry who met to discuss possible Weanoke links - that was 10 years ago. i dont believe anymore came of that though.

there have been some rumblings within the meherrin as of late, discussing nottoway interests and reorganizing interest within their structure. that would be interesting to see develop. maybe more will be revealed about these close groups.

[CoheeLady]

To itconani,
My Turner's are from the moutains of Virginia, do you have any information on the Rockbridge, Amherst, Buckingham, Nelson county areas, that are Turner related & Indian?
CoheeLady

[itconani]

i do not have any further reports on turners from those areas.
mostly, i've been investigating turners from the eastern piedmont and coastal counties
my memory is scanty here, but, is turner one of the many monacan names?
or - do you have some info one indian turners from these mountain counties? what are their maiden names - this may provide a further insight (ie: turners married to a goins or branham)

[CoheeLady]

To Itconani,
My Family: Cash, Turner, Garrett, Patterson, Ayers, Ford, Chastain, Agee, Bondurant, Walker, Skinner, North, Arthur. The Monacan's (Diane Shields) says we are not Monacan. Her list of Monacan names is rather short.
thanks,
CoheeLady
Cash & Skinner are originally from Westmoreland & Stafford

[virginia w]

My husband is part of a group who have researched their backgrounds. They are bonified descendents of the Indians who were called the Nottoways. They are continually researching to find other relatives. Please pass the message on.

[itconani]

I havent put anything in this slot for a while, a real lack of iniative on my part.
Maybe I'll try to put more in to this thread, as it covers alot of Southside Virginia / Northeastern NC. Recently I recieved this lineage from a man who was kind enough to volunteer his findings concerning one branch of Chowanokes - the "hoyter" surname. The conversation is concerning Tabitha Hoyter, daughter of Chowanoke chief. This is a portion of the corrospondence:

"I am still working on solidifying my connection to the Chowans through the Freeman line. As you probably know, one has to be careful about taking as an absolute fact all the genealogical postings found on the Internet. Here is the line as I know it:
Tabitha Hoyter:
John R. Freeman b. 1718
Aaron " b. 1745
James " b. 1785
Green C. " born 1827
Alfred Henderson " b. 1859
James " b. 1886 (my grandfather)
Donna " b. 1922 (my mother)

Information before and including James has not been solidly documented. However,
I know that Green C. Freeman was born in North Carolina and came to Kentucky where he married Sarah Parker in 1849. Green served as a Lt. in the civil war (for the North with the 12th Kentucky volunteers) Sometime after the civil war he and his family moved to AR. where he was living in War Eagle Mills in 1880. Son Alfred met and married Mary Todd and they had James in AR. I believe that James met my grandmother (Ada Davidson) in AR. and then followed Ada and her family to Grays Harbour WA in the early 1900s."

I thought the material might be of some interest to those with the other surnames mentioned as well as an alternate source for migrations.

[Forest]

I'm glad to see some of the Nottaway descendants getting together. From looking at the post Civil War census for Southampton, I figured there must be a fair number of descendants there.

Are any of your folks named Brown? One of my college professors told me an interesting story about some Browns in Southampton and their relation (or non-relation) to the Blacks in the county. Are there any Stewarts there? I understand some of the Scholars changed their name to Stewart after the Civil War.

[Forest]

Hmmmm,
I should have realized that using "Blacks" in close proximaty to "Browns" might cause confusion. I was referring to Blacks in the sense of African-Americans, not the surname. My bad.
Forest

[rosebudsaponi]

deleted

[itconani]

I have not come across any Browns or Stewarts at this time, although i know of some connections there (ive heard the Brown Story before). I have often wondered about the Bizzle and Blizzard connection. it is possible, but needs to be nailed down (like two brothers living apart on census records, one with one name, the other with the other). I believe the Bizzle name is primarily a meherrin one, but has early nansmond roots as well. Below is a brief history concerning Chowanokes in the same area. Food for thought as well as a few more names to play with - this type of data is the material I think needs to be explored in reference to "old grandady X was Blackfoot". Here are more relations that are not represented today, but have descendants.


1675 The Chowanoke War in which the Chowans attacked the English. The The Chowans were defeated and placed on a reservation in present day Gates County, the Bennett's Creek reservation.

1707--1713 The Chowans aided the English in the Tuscarora War.

1712 Thomas Hoyle, King of Chowans per Rev. Giles Rainsford ofAnglican Church

1714 Chief John Hoyter petitions NC Council for a survey of Bennet's Creek reservation

1715 Rev Rainsford spends 5 months among the Chowan and offers to be missionary

1718 Chief John Hoyter petitions NC Council for grievances

1718 William and Mary Freeman buy land on Catherine Creek from Thomas Garrett

1720 Chief John Hoyter files petition for survey of Bennet's Creek reservation

1723 Indian Woods Reservation created for Tuscarora and Chowans west of Chowan River and South of Meherrin River on the Roanoke River

1731 Less than 20 Chowan Families

1733 Chowans incorporated with Tuscarora by order of NC Council

1733 August 3, John Freeman buys 200 acres of land on Catherine Creek that was part of Chowan Town. Thomas Hoyter was one of the Grantors.

1753 Bishop Spargenberg reports that the Chowan are reduced to a few families

1754 "James Bennett, John Robbins,Chowan Indians and John Freeman,Planter," sell 200 acres belonging to the Chowan tribe.

1755 Gov. Dobbs reports tht the Chowan consist of 2 men, 5 women and children. Probably James Bennett and John Robbins.

1775 Tuscarora moved to Chowan reservation on Bennett's Creek on east side of Chowan River, formerly the reservation of Chowanokes.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Check out Govind Sanyal Research posted to "Share History Research forum" Here is what it says about the BENNETT Indians:

[1675 The Meherrin Indians are at the north side of the Meherrin River pre-1713 the saponi Indians are at the south side of the Meherrin River.

1713 Tready of Fort Christanna includes 36 SQ MI set aside for the Saponi Indians in Brunswick county,Virginia

1746-7 The Saponi moved from the Pumunkey River area of Virginia to the Flatt River
[ Old Thomas COLLINS sold land on Pumunkey River in 1747 and moved to the FLATT River]

1767 Saponis are selling land on the Flatt River of Orange County,N.C. Saponis are moving to sections of the back woods of the New River in Virginia and N.C.
[believed to be Peachtree Bottom in what is now Grayson Co. Va.]

James Bennett, born say 1700, was one of the Chowan County Indians who sold their land on Bennett ‘s Creek in 1734 in the part of Chowan County which later became Gates county NC

James Bennett, Thomas Hoyter, Charles Beasley, Jeremiah Pushin, John Robins, John Reading, & Nuce Will Chief men of the Chowan Indians…[Chowan DB W:250]

He and John Robins were also called Chief men of the Chowan Indians on 19 November 1758 when they sold 300 acres of Indian land by deed proved in gates County [DB2:101] He ,James Bennett Jr. and Amos Bennett were called “Bennett’s Creek Indians” in October 1763 when they sold land by deed acknowledged in Chowan County court. And a deed from him and John robins was proved in Chowan county in October 1765 [Minutes 1761-6, 164,273] His descendants were probably

i. George Bennett born abt 1768, a thirteen year old “Indian boy” ordered by the Gates County court to be bound as an apprentice shoemaker to Edward Brisco in feb 1781 [Fouts, Minutes of Gates Co Court1779-86,29] He and {his brother]Joseph Bennett and James and Benjamin Robinswere called “Chief men and representatives of the Chowan Indian Nation” on 12 April 1790 when they sold for $100.00 , 400 acres of land which was part of the origional Indian patent of 24 April 1724[DB A-2:153]

ii. Joseph Bennett, born abt 1769, a 12 year old “Indian Boy” called Josiah Bennett in February 1781 when the gates County court ordered him bound as an apprentice cooper to Henry Booth [Fouts, Minutes of gates county court 1779-86, 29] He was head of a Gates County household of one “other free”in 1790 [NC:23]and an insolvent gates County taxpayer in 1794 [Fouts, Minutes of Gates County Court, 1:17] Perhaps his wife was Nancy Bennett, head of an Edenton, Chowan Co. household of 2 “free Colored”women in 1820 [NC:130]

[itconani]

Brenda -
You always add so much to this forum. I'm very pleased with the material listed in the thread mentioned above, I wonder why you did not repost / post it here initially. I'm equally delighted of the descendancy you have to both Chowanoke and Saponi. Charlestowne (ton) is a very interesting city (your relations). One of my descendants (Davenport), on a seperate line, arrived there and began working in the deerskin trade soon thereafter. He took at least one Wife from the Ochese Creek before settling at a later date with his sons in N. Carolina.
Its interesting (ive seen it before) to see indians moving South from VA / NC border. I hope to copy your post at the other thread here soon for clarity.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Just wanted to correct your assumption. The work I posted is not my work. I posted it with permission from Govind Sanyal , who is researching and working with Airy Dixon in New York. I found it most interesting as I have (3) Bennett lines.

My mother's parents were Fred Bennett & Mollie Perry. Fred was the son of Edward Bennett and from there back is my brickwall.

On my father's side his grandmother ( my gr grandma) was Hatta Bennett d/o Charles Bennett who served in the Civil War. His father was Henry Bennett but I have never got back any further than Henry.

The third Bennett line is through the brother of Charles, John Bennett. My father's line comes from the area we are all searching. Virginia/North Carolina.

I want to share with everybody a picture I recieved today of my mother in her 20's. Note the necklace she is wearing.

[itconani]

brenda -

thank you for stating the researcher, i should have been more clear. after reading govind's material, i wanted to comment and thank you for bringing the collection here.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

;) You're very welcome. His research maps his ancesters travel along some of the same trails that mine traveled. I have found Reed/Reid families intermarried to Collins. I was also interested in what he had to say on the Bennett lines.

Several years ago I spoke to Airy Dixon about my Bennett/Perry/Lyons/Allman/Patterson families and he told me that almost all of those names show up in the Pumunkey Tribes. I keep searching but thus far have found no clue to lead me to the truth.

As for the Collins line I can not be sure of what tribe. They were called MELUNGEONS but according to two elder Melungeon historians named Jarvis and Ghrose, the Melungeons were living in Virginia as "friendly Indians" before migerating into Tennessee, western Virginia, Kentucky and up into West Virginia. Vardy Collins being the best known of them all is found living on land in Wilkes County, NC adjoining my Meredith Collins. The years between 1780-1797 are a mystery. I can't find my Meredith anywhere. If I could crack those years perhaps I would learn the mysteries of the Collins line.

:confused:

[itconani]

Thats interesting, i woundn't think all of those to be pamunkey - but there is more that i dont know than know. Is he thinking of Collins and Allmond?
Does your Perry line end up anywhere in Eastern NC? Where does your collins come from before the time mentioned? i cant remember and i know youve posted these things before.
What is Airy's interest in the Bennet from Chowan?

[CoheeLady]

Dear Brenda,
Do you know where Airy Dixon got his documentation from, regarding Patterson's being Pamunkey Indian? I would be very interested to know what his sources are. I'm not disputing it, I just want more info., since my Patterson's married into my Cash line. My great-great grandmother was a Patterson, prior to marriage. Thank you for all your help.
Sincerely,
CoheeLady

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

We spoke only in general. He stated nothing in documentation of any of these names. He only said the surnames could be found among the Pumunkey. There is no proof of any of them being my lines.

The Lyons and Allmond/Allman I have seen connected with Onieda so I am sure the names could show up in other tribes also.

[CoheeLady]

Brenda,
Thanks for your reply. I will contact my Pamunkey friend, & ask her about the Pattersons. I will keep you informed. Thanks again & God Bless.
Sincerely,
CoheeLady :)

[sammarroq]

Robins (Robbins)and Bennett are identified as Indian in Gates county up to around 1800 in some of the apprentice records. Usually identified in land records as "Chowan Indians" The Robbins family among the modern Meherrin comes from the Gates county group. I have long felt that a relationship between the Nansemond, Nottoway, Meherrin, and Chowan could be demonstrated using both historical records and genealogical information. The Bizzle name, which occurs as Indian in both the Nansemond area and the Meherrin community is one example. Given the fact that a couple dozen or so folks were counted as Indian in 1870 in the area of the Nottoway Reservation, there are almost certainly descendants still in the area today.


I know Gates County has come up here a few time lately...thoought this thread might be of some help...

[mzboone]

I appreciate you pointing this topic out to me, it was quite useful! Especially for the Geneology that Im researching

[Four Cats]

Has anyone run across the “Duck” surname in the Isle of Wight, VA area? According to a family story, my wife’s great-grandmother, Margaret Duck (b. ca. 1888) reportedly walked out of an Indian village in Isle of Wight and married into the Butler family.
I am currently looking into the Cheroenhaka (Nottoway) Tribe for a link, and wondering if anyone else has run across this name?

Kind Regards,
Four Cats
<O:p</O:p
Descendant of, and researching the Barnes, Cannon, Creed, and Mitchell families.

[Dreaminghawk]

Welcome, 4cats
try this link for some possible leads. The Duck surname has been in Isle of wight,Va since before 1700
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=Search&includedb=&lang=en&ti=&surname=duck&stype=Exact&given=&bplace=va&byear=&brange=0&dplace=&dyear=&drange=0&mplace=&myear=&mrange=0&father=&mother=&spouse=&skipdb=&period=All&submit.x=Search

[michaeldunn]

My Collinses, and some related lines, come from Isle of Wight, and I know that I've seen the Duck surname in my research. None are in my database so they aren't intermarried with mine, but I suspect I've seen it in land records or some such. Check Nansemond County as well as my people lived right along the county line (in the Kingsale Swamp area in southern parts of both counties) and I suspect that's where I've seen the Duck name. Sorry I can't give chapter and verse at this time.

Michael Dunn

[Four Cats]

Many thanks Dreaminghawk and MichealDunn!

Michael, I wonder if you share any ties to my Barnes/Fiveash ancestors? I have quite a bit on the Barnes' and Mitchell's that I would like to post here in the near future to help someone else out.

I will share my latest Mitchell finding, in case someone else is pulling their hair out on this connection right now. I spent several months trying to chase down my G-G-Grandfather William Harvy Mitchell (b. 2/11/1881, d. 12/17/1945) who lived in McDowell Co. WV. He was reported to have been born in Tazewell Co. VA, and I spent an exhaustive amount of time looking in that area to no avail. On a second glance at his death certificate, I noticed that the "v" in his middle name was changed from a "g" or another letter.
<O:p</O:p

When I tried a search on “William Hardy Mitchell”, I found a William Mitchell born in 1881 in Pitt Co. NC, who had a father named Hardy Mitchell. Now, I have to figure out exactly where these folks were from. I suspect Lumbee or Tuscarora at the moment, as Hardy was a common Indian name in that area. I’ll let you know what I find on the Duck ancestry search as I move forward on that.
<O:p</O:p

Kind Regards,
Four Cats
<O:p</O:p
Descendant of, and researching the Barnes, Cannon, Creed, and Mitchell families.

[michaeldunn]

Four Cats:

Sorry, no Barnes or Mitchells that I've found.

Michael Dunn

[Four Cats]

Quick update-

I have made some headway on my wife's Margaret Duck G-Grandmother. According to the 1880 Federal Census, Margaret Duck was the daughter of William and Mattie Callis of Totaro (Brunswick) VA, born ca. 1861.
I have asked the Cheroenhaka if they recognize this surname, or it may be one of the nearby Occaneechi or Saponi nations. Of interest, Totaro would be about eight miles west of Emporia, VA, just south of Route 58.

Kind Regards,
Four Cats
Descendant of, and researching the Barnes, Cannon, Creed, and Mitchell families.

[cherosage]

I'm glad to see some of the Nottaway descendants getting together. From looking at the post Civil War census for Southampton, I figured there must be a fair number of descendants there.

Are any of your folks named Brown? One of my college professors told me an interesting story about some Browns in Southampton and their relation (or non-relation) to the Blacks in the county. Are there any Stewarts there? I understand some of the Scholars changed their name to Stewart after the Civil War.

I have Brown relations near Leesburg, Loudoun Co., VA and then on to MO.
Issac Brown Sr d. abt 1796 married to Martha (?)
Isaac Jr. B. abt 1760-1765 d. 1834 married to Mary(?) and/or Sarah Burson May 26 1784
David Erasmus b. may 5, 1827. Loudoun Co., VA. d. Oct. 11 1910 in Mayes Co., OK. Married Mary Hixson, Apr. 18, 1850 in Guernsey Co., OH and Ellen Eve Ash July 18, 1899 in Camden CO., MO.

[Four Cats]

Hi Cherosage,

I believe the Brown surname is affiliated with the Cheroenhaka (Nottoway) tribe in this area. My wife's people are from this area, and I'm focusing more of my research time here to see what I can dig up for her. The Brown name is also recognized by the Tuscarora Nation in Bertie, Co. NC.

I agree with Forest Hazel that it is good to see more discussion on the topics of our ancestors and heritage. Your Ash surname is interesting, as I have Fiveash's in my line who were located in the swamps west of Nansemond Co. (Suffolk) VA. I do see three Hixson's on the Dawes Final Rolls listed as Cherokee, so you may want to have a look in this area of your family as well.

Best Regards,
Four Cats

[Four Cats]

Hi Dreaminghawk,

Where are your Reed's from? I have Reed's and Adams' on my mother's side who lived in Troutville, VA (near Marion) for over 100 years, up until the late 1970's.

Best Regards,
Four Cats

Descendant of, and researching the Barnes, Cannon, Creed, and Mitchell families.<!-- / message -->

[sammarroq]

I have Brown relations near Leesburg, Loudoun Co., VA and then on to MO.
Issac Brown Sr d. abt 1796 married to Martha (?)
Isaac Jr. B. abt 1760-1765 d. 1834 married to Mary(?) and/or Sarah Burson May 26 1784
David Erasmus b. may 5, 1827. Loudoun Co., VA. d. Oct. 11 1910 in Mayes Co., OK. Married Mary Hixson, Apr. 18, 1850 in Guernsey Co., OH and Ellen Eve Ash July 18, 1899 in Camden CO., MO.


Bob,
I know it is a common name, but I also have Brown's...Lois Brown m. Elliot Lacy. I have nothing on Lois, except she was born in VA??


Shirley

[cherosage]

Bob,
I know it is a common name, but I also have Brown's...Lois Brown m. Elliot Lacy. I have nothing on Lois, except she was born in VA??


Shirley

What time frame? I'll try to dig a little more if I can. My David E. came to MO prior to the War. In fact he served in the MO Militia for a short time and then enlisted in one of the Ross Units while in western MO.

Bob

[cherosage]

Hi Cherosage,

I believe the Brown surname is affiliated with the Cheroenhaka (Nottoway) tribe in this area. My wife's people are from this area, and I'm focusing more of my research time here to see what I can dig up for her. The Brown name is also recognized by the Tuscarora Nation in Bertie, Co. NC.

I agree with Forest Hazel that it is good to see more discussion on the topics of our ancestors and heritage. Your Ash surname is interesting, as I have Fiveash's in my line who were located in the swamps west of Nansemond Co. (Suffolk) VA. I do see three Hixson's on the Dawes Final Rolls listed as Cherokee, so you may want to have a look in this area of your family as well.

Best Regards,
Four Cats

David E. was a signer of a Cherokee Constitution in 1895. I'm not sure he was actually Cherokee. For some reason his application was not accepted. Maybe he passed away to early. Not sure of the actual date that these Rolls were accepted.

His wife, my GGGGrandma, I think I have th eright number of G's, died on their way from West Central MO to OK to register. She is buried in Joplin MO at the Fairview Shawnee Cemetery. She was from OH as were many Shawnees. On the Dawes Rolls not everyone was Cherokee by blood.

Since she passed away enroute, she never was enrolled. SO, even if her sisters/brothers/cuzns etc were enrolled I can't qualify from that blood lline. Perhaps if and only if one or both of her parents came west to enroll then I could go of of their allottee number. You MUST be a Direct decendent of an allottee. I do have other NDN family lines though. I am of the same family line way back as Chad Smith and some others on the Cherokee side.

These things, I am really up on. I just live a little ways from the territory. and can't get any help since we live outside the districts territory.

[Four Cats]

Hi Folks,

I've made some progress on my wife's Duck surname, and run into an intersting dead end at the moment. According to the 1850 U.S. Census, Wm (William) Duck (age 20) is living with the following Carr Family in Isle of Wight, VA-

Benja T Carr 5
Elizabeth Carr 64<O:p</O:p
Mary E Carr 4<O:p</O:p
Polly Carr 24<O:p</O:p
Sarah F Carr 1<O:p</O:p
Solomon Carr 26<O:p</O:p
Wm Duck 20

I'm wondering who this William's parents were? I do see a Duck/Carr marriage about 100 years earlier between a William Duck and Eleanor Carr in 1734. I'm also curious as to who knowns where I can find a list of Nansemond Indian Surnames while I dig in this area?

Thanks in advance!
Four Cats

[Linda]

Four Cats, where were you Cannons living? Felicia (one of the moderators here) is a Cannon.

[Four Cats]

Hi Linda,

My Cannons are from Canonsburg, PA (in Washington Co., just south of Pittsburgh).

Best Regards,
Four Cats

[Four Cats]

[Four Cats Quoted] Hi Folks,<O:p</O:p
I've made some progress on my wife's Duck surname, and run into an intersting dead end at the moment. According to the 1850 U.S. Census, Wm (William) Duck (age 20) is living with the following Carr Family in Isle of Wight, VA-
<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Benja T Carr 5<O:p</O:p
Elizabeth Carr 64<O:p</O:p
Mary E Carr 4<O:p</O:p
Polly Carr 24<O:p</O:p
Sarah F Carr 1<O:p</O:p
Solomon Carr 26<O:p</O:p
Wm Duck 20
<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
I'm wondering who this William's parents were? I do see a Duck/Carr marriage about 100 years earlier between a William Duck and Eleanor Carr in 1734. I'm also curious as to who knowns where I can find a list of Nansemond Indian Surnames while I dig in this area?<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Thanks in advance!<O:p</O:p
Four Cats

<O:p</O:p
This is getting interesting! I found a web page about the Soloman and Sarah Owens Carr family at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/genpcncfir/messages/13523?xm=1&m=e&l=1 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/genpcncfir/messages/13523?xm=1&m=e&l=1), who currently appear to be the best candidates as parents for the young Soloman Carr above.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
According to these posts by J. Webb and L. Bass, Soloman and Sarah Carr were married in Isle of Wight, VA ca. 1782, and Soloman died in 1820. Sarah Carr was found living in Pitt Co. NC in April 1843. The marriage between Eleanor Carr and William Duck is confirmed here, and they are the parents of Sarah Duck (d. 09/23/1754) who married a John Owens.

Regards,
Four Cats

[Greydove]

Hi Four Cats! Here are a few Nansemond surnames taken from a link by Steven Sappony Hill~<HR>
6/17/2005
1735 to 1808 Southampton Co., VA Indians

Listed as Nottoway and Nansemond Indians on land deeds in Southampton, Virginia:

1735……………….King Edmunds, James Harrison, Ned, Peter, Robert Scoller Sam, Wanoke Robin, William Hines, Frank, Wanoke Robin Jr. Cockarons Tom, Cockarons Will.


1750……………….Sam, Frank, Jack Will, John Turner, Wat Bailey, George Skipper


1795……………….John Turner, Celia Rogers (a Nansemond), Suky Turner


1808 Special Census on Nottoway in Southampton:
adults: Litteton Scholar, Tom Turner, Jemmy Wineoak, Edy Turner, Nancy Turner, Betsy Step
Children: Tom Step, Henry Turner, Alexander Rogers, John Woodson, Winny Woodson, Anny Woodson, Polly Woodson, Fanny Bartlett, Solomon Bartlett, Billy Woodson, Jenny Woodson Hope this helps~Blessingsr~ :) Greydove

[sammarroq]

What time frame? I'll try to dig a little more if I can. My David E. came to MO prior to the War. In fact he served in the MO Militia for a short time and then enlisted in one of the Ross Units while in western MO.

Bob

Hi Bob, here is all I have on Lois Brown...

Miss Lois Brown
P:Thomas Lacy , Ann Burnley
VA
b.1726
VA
d.20 Nov 1777

I also have another purported John Brown...the father of my Mary Polly Daniel, who m. George Gibson Perry, KY 1833.

Shirley

[Four Cats]

Thanks Greydove!

I recently found a piece on www.tamandmichael.com (http://www.tamandmichael.com) by Michael Dunn (not sure if he's the same one that chats here) that mentioned the Ducks being a known family in the Kingsale swamp area back in 1763.

According to this website, a jury was called to decide on a land issue between a Bejamin Baker and James Tallow. The jurors mentioned were "William Duck, Abraham Carr, John Duck, Joshua Council, Jacob Butler, James Collins, Job Holland, Lemuel Holland, John Daughtry, William Daughtry and Richard Wooten".

I do have the Carr/Duck marriage in this timeframe which may tie the Ducks to Powhatan, but I have not found any tribes claiming the Duck surname as of yet. My Barnes' were in the same Kingsale area, and they are Tuscarora.

Kind Regards,
Four Cats

[Greydove]

You are most welcome Four Cats~ I looked around for some Duck~NAI~ties and ironically I landed on a post back here in SaponiTown archives by Janette back in June of 2007~ck it out~It's listed under "Direct Descendants of John Owens~Sarah Duck as his 2nd wive~ http://www.saponitown.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-3143.html Good Luck~:D ~Greydove~

[Four Cats]

Thanks Greydove,

This info helps! What I am starting to see is this small Duck family that eluded most historical documentation moving along the VA/NC border. I have just sat down to sort all my findings out once more, and as of today, I have found them moving around Pitt and Northampton, NC. I also found a Barnes/Duck marriage which may tie them back into my line as well.

Kind regards,
Four Cats

[michaeldunn]

Four Cats:

Yeah, it's the same Michael Dunn. Duck and Carr are both old names along the Isle of Wight/Nansemond county line (there's a "Carrsville" in the area still, though it's now part of the city of Suffolk I believe). I know my Collinses are intermarried with the Carrs; not sure about the Ducks. Some Carrs (and my Collinses) moved down to Franklin County, NC, just southwest of where the Haliwa/Saponi live today, and all these families have links with surnames found both among the Nansemond and the Haliwa/Saponi. I've still never found a certain native link in my own lines, but the intermarriages with family names like Bass, Richardson, and others are suggestive.

Michael Dunn

[cherosage]

Hi Four Cats! Here are a few Nansemond surnames taken from a link by Steven Sappony Hill~<HR>
6/17/2005
1735 to 1808 Southampton Co., VA Indians

Listed as Nottoway and Nansemond Indians on land deeds in Southampton, Virginia:

1735……………….King Edmunds, James Harrison, Ned, Peter, Robert Scoller Sam, Wanoke Robin, William Hines, Frank, Wanoke Robin Jr. Cockarons Tom, Cockarons Will.


1750……………….Sam, Frank, Jack Will, John Turner, Wat Bailey, George Skipper


1795……………….John Turner, Celia Rogers (a Nansemond), Suky Turner


1808 Special Census on Nottoway in Southampton:
adults: Litteton Scholar, Tom Turner, Jemmy Wineoak, Edy Turner, Nancy Turner, Betsy Step
Children: Tom Step, Henry Turner, Alexander Rogers, John Woodson, Winny Woodson, Anny Woodson, Polly Woodson, Fanny Bartlett, Solomon Bartlett, Billy Woodson, Jenny Woodson Hope this helps~Blessingsr~ :) Greydove

This is interesting since I have some Sams from the mid-1700s from the Monogalia Co., (now) WV or across the line in PA. I have an Edward Sams.

[Four Cats]

Hi folks,


I would first like to thank Greydove and Micheal Dunn for their thoughts and input in helping figure out my wife's mysterious Duck ancestors!
Working with the only clue that was passed down through my wife's family of a "Margaret Duck who walked out of a Native American village around 1900 in isle of Wight VA.", I have been able to piece this together-

Some of us are familiar with the John Owens and Sarah duck marriage in the late 1700's. They had a son named William Duck who kept the mother's surname and little was said about him. I found William living alone in the 1810 Federal Census for Isle of Wight, VA, and according to "Ancestry.com", William married an Unknown wife and they had William Jr. In the 1820 Federal Census, I found his son, William Duck, Jr. and what I believe was left of this Duck family-

1820 Isle of Wight Census
John Duck
Mary Duck
Tyler Duck
William Duck Jr.

John and Mary were listed as the parents of the home, and Tyler and William Jr. were listed as children. I did find that Mary Duck was born ca. 1786, and could possibly be William Jr.'s mother remarried to this John Duck?
<O:p</O:p
I now understand where this only Duck came from that was living with the Carr family in 1850 (In case you noticed, I have a 10 year descrepancy that I haven't quite ironed out yet.)

1850 U.S. Census of Isle of Wight, VA-
Benja T Carr 5
Elizabeth Carr 64
Mary E Carr 4
Polly Carr 24
Sarah F Carr 1
Solomon Carr 26
Wm Duck 20

I did some digging into what may have happened to William Duck Sr. and Mary, and made the following finding-
Mary Duck was enrolled on Indian Affairs "IA_70" and found living in Iowa in 1856. I can only assume this, or worse for William, Sr. and the other Ducks. Suspecting the other ducks may have been victims of the "Indian Removal Act", I found that those of the Duck surname were in fact removed with the Tuscarora to points north in PA and NY.
(http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ncbertie/tuscarra.htm)

In the 1900 Federal Census, my wife's G-Grandmother is Maggie F Duck-
William Duck 71
Mattie J Duck 38
Junius R Duck 24
John W Duck 23
George W Duck 17
Stephen H Duck 13
Maggie F Duck 12
Annie R Lavender 21
Fabius Lavender 2
Ella M Lavender 1

The only question remains is who claims this surname? These Ducks must have been Native American if they were placed on reservations, and shipped up north with the Tuscarora under the "Indian Removal Act".
<O:p</O:p

Best Regards,
Four Cats

[Dreaminghawk]

I was under the impression that the Tuscarora moved north and joined with the 6 nations of their own choosing and it had nothing to do with the Indian Removal Act?

[Linda]

The Tuscarora did move to Six Nations following the Tuscarora War in 1713. I don't know if I'd characterize it as 'their own choosing" and it's also unclear if the migration was universal. I know there's mention in the colonial records of Tuscarora warriors still taking pot shots at Saponi living in Virginia in the years following the war, could that have been as late as the 1730's? Not sure. Lots of things make me think that movement northward was incomplete and hesitant, including all the present day North Carolinians who claim that descent.

Although I've never come across anything documenting Indian people being pushed northward during Removal, though it is true that it was a drawn out process. There's nothing to say that some might have chose to go to kin in another area rather than wait for the army to herd them west at gunpoint. It's also unclear to me if the Removal was directed more or less exclusively at the Cherokee and the other Five Civilized Tribes, or how much pressure was on the survivors of the other tribes still living in the upper south.

[Four Cats]

Hi Linda and Dreaminghawk,

I appreciate your comments!

Dreaminghawk, you make a good observation, as I too have heard this move was voluntary to create the six nations. To Linda's point, I also agree that this move was not completely voluntary. The Southern Tuscarora living in the Pamlico/Ucouhnerunt villiage area of NC were being raided and sold into slavery (most likely what my Barnes and Mitchell's were running from a century later in this area just before slavery was abolished). The Northern Tuscarora in the Bertie, NC area saw much combat action with the Colonists. Colonel Barnwell of SC reportedly drove them back into their fort above the Newbern area, and forced them to surrender.

Linda, I also agree with your second point. Members of my ancestors dodged the reservations and made a new life in the hills, and others eventually returned to the Carolinas later on. I have worked in the Buffalo/Toronto area quite a bit in the past, and I could not imagine giving up the the good fishing and warmth of NC in exchange for those long, cold winters!

Best Regards,
Four Cats

[Dreaminghawk]

Removal was during the 1830s, over 100 years after the Tuscarora War. I have seen no evidence that there were cohesive tribal units of Tuscarora in Isle of Wight, Va in the 1830s. People of Tuscarora heritage were undoubtedly living in Va and NC but they were living "euro-style" on family farms.
I agree that all people of native heritage living east of the Mississippi after 1838 were very hush-hush about their heritage for fear of being removed to Okla.... a fear that remains to this day among some of the most elderly. We were told never to tell ANYONE that we were indian.