Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee (HBO)

[1_optimistic]

Hi Family,

I did not watch the movie, but I just read the following article and was disturbed:

The following was written by Carter Camp, Ponca Nation:

Ah-ho My Relations,
> It has been a long buildup to the showing of HBO's "Bury My Heart at
> Wounded Knee". We read about the good native cast that was being
> assembled and as the date drew near Indian people were emailing the
> starting dates and previews to each other. I remember telling my
> brothers that "I know this will be hard to watch". I knew that because
> the book had touched my heart and I knew a movie would be even more
> emotional. I think everyone was prepared to see a modern, well
> researched movie that would be as truthful and hard hitting as the
> book. It seemed all right that they had narrowed the book down to the
> story of the 1890 massacre of the Lakota at Wounded Knee rather than
> try to tell the whole book's many stories of the genocide of Indian
> people. It promised to be an Indian movie we could be proud of or at
> least a truthful one to counter some recent stinkers like Pocahontas
> and Apocalypto.
> Of course that may have been wishful thinking seeing as how the
> book galvanized a generation of Indian people to fight for the redress
> of the historical wrongs done to our people. The book touched a nerve
> with tribes across Indian Country and showed us graphically the
> commonality of our many struggles. The book proved that what was done
> to our people was a decades long, government inspired, well planned,
> process of genocide and a movie showing the same was eagerly looked
> forward to by Indians across the nation. The book was deeply
> researched and exceptionally careful in its scholarship, Dee Brown was
> one of the first historians to attempt to examine the native side of
> the conquest of America.
> The movie began with scenes of a screaming bunch of be-feathered
> warriors charging down a hill and riding in a circle around and around
> a tightly gathered group of soldiers bravely making a "last stand"
> against the swarming horde. As anyone knows who has been to the actual
> battlefield the soldiers death sites are scattered over many acres in
> a big fan shaped area from where it began. It shows that with few
> exceptions the soldiers were flushed like a covey of quail and died
> running to escape. As the camera slowly faded from the scene I said
> "uh-oh, I hope that wasn't supposed to be Custer getting his arrow
> shirt".
> It was, damn it all to hell, the movie began with one of the oldest
> and tiredest of the old, tired Hollywood western stereotypes...
> suicidal Indian warriors, too dumb to plan battle tactics, letting
> themselves get picked off one by one by smart white soldiers who take
> cover while the Indians ride around and around. A sinking sensation
> began to come over me but I hoped against hope that this was perhaps a
> counterpoint that would be explained later. That hope was futile, the
> movie turned out to be full of those types of ignorant stereotypes and
> to make it worse it was also full of historical mistakes so egregious
> I doubt the perpetrators even read Dee Browns book! They had the
> Paiute preacher Wovoka in South Dakota teaching the Lakota how to
> Ghostdance and the protagonist Eastman devising the Dawes Act! They
> berated the Lakota for fighting other tribes as if their early
> displacement by the Ojibway was their fault. Every battle scene shows
> the Lakota doing their B-western thing and charging straight into
> superior whitemen shooting superior weapons. We see Lakotas getting
> blown every which way until they run off and then sue for peace from
> the superior white officer. I felt like I was back in my 1950's youth,
> watching a cowboys and redskins flick!
> Worse than some of their historical mistakes was the lack of
> important historical events like Chief Bigfoots desperate, 200
> mile flight through the bitter, subzero cold under harassment by the
> 7th cavalry. How could they not portray such a major part of the
> story? Without Bigfoots attempt to save his people from the revenge
> minded 7th cavalry by leading them to Red Clouds agency seeking
> refuge, there would not have been a Wounded Knee massacre. They didn't
> even make it clear it was Custer's old outfit that committed the
> murders.
> In this movie it made the massacre seem like a fair fight
> with Lakota shooting as much as the whites not showing that our men
> had been disarmed and only a very few had been able to hide a
> weapon. It obscured the start and never mentioned, much less
> portrayed, how so many unarmed women and children were murdered one by
> one, execution style. It made it look like they were killed in the
> heat of battle instead of being hunted down like rabbits and shot
> point blank by crazed and drunken American heroes. It wasn't hard to
> watch, like the murder of innocent children should be, even though a
> lot blood was splattered. Oh it got graphic with today's special
> effects how could it not, but the people didn't seem real because in
> this movie Indians have no personalities. Except for Adam Beach in a
> couple of scenes, Indians were one dimensional and stoic (as
> always) even Sitting Bull (the main personality of the Indian side)
was never given any but the barest of motivations for his lifelong
resistance.
Which brings me to my biggest disappointment with the movie, no, I
should say what pissed me off the most about this movie. They got
everything Indian wrong! They sang Sundance songs at inappropriate
times and danced the Ghost dance before a tree. The small things that
make us Tribal people were distorted to make our societies the mirror
of theirs. Things like our familial relationships were completely
ignored and the fact that we had a governmental structure at all
seemed unknown to the scriptwriter and director. That's racist. It's
as if we were so primitive we lived dog eat dog lives while dictator
chiefs ruled us with an iron fist. There were no clans, no societies,
no woman's voice, no respect in a society built on respect. Chiefs,
the honored leaders of our societies who were chosen by the people
because they openly lived their lives above reproach, were shown as
venal, greed driven autocrats who held life and death powers over
their people. Nothing could be more wrong. In one sickening scene they
had Chief Sitting Bull tying up a boy and whipping him unmercifully
for trying to leave camp! Worse again was the way, all of a sudden
when the agent said there would be no Chiefs, all the Indians
immediately obeyed him and shunned Chief Sitting Bull and gave him no
more allegiance. Again no understanding of Indian society or a Chiefs
role in our society. The historical record says the agent, who the
movie shows as harshly dictating to an intimidated Chief Sitting
Bull, was in reality deathly afraid of the Chief and generally kissed
his ass while scheming behind his back. And the truth is the vast
majority of Lakota people still revered and respected both Chief
Sitting Bull and Chief Red Cloud.
All of us have seen the beautiful way our Chiefs and Headsmen
dressed when they had formal meetings with the whiteman or sat in
Council for the people. In this movie in scene after scene our most
respected leaders were dressed like 1930's depression era bums! Why
the hell was that done? The completely untrue and totally undignified
portrayal of Chief Red Cloud must have been done with deliberate
malice. He was shown as an overweight, sad and broken old man without
dignity nor the respect of his people. The truth is a more proud,
straight and tall example of Lakota pride and dignity cannot be found
in all the pictures of that era. We can only ask why? Why the hell
would you make a movie like this? Why would you ignore the very book
the movie is named after and choose to make a movie from the ignorant
1950's? Why?
I'm outraged that this movie was foisted upon us under the name of
such a respected book. In a different more subtle way this movie is
worse and more stereotypical than Mel Gibson's stupidly violent
Apocalypto. This movie disrespects those that died at Wounded Knee in
the massacre of 1890, it disrespects those that survived, it
disrespects the Lakota Nation and it disrespects Indian people, most
of all it disrespects the book and its title. When will they ever
learn?


Carter Camp, Ponca Nation




:mad: :mad:

For those who read the book and/or watched the HBO movie, what are your thoughts?

[Ed Yancey]

Optimistic, I am disappointed that I did not know about the movie and get the opportunity to see it. The fact is I probably would have had to get up and go into another room of our home or just turn it off. Every now and then we see a real documentary or a true and realistic story of how things were but the fact is we have a generation on our hands (and that includes for the most part all our population) who just don't care to hear the real truth. A wise man in the Bible by the name of Solomon said it,"there is nothing new under the sun." Even today in the present war and danger our nation faces I listen to the accounts from the men who have just returned to know the true situation there and how they believe in what they are trying to accomplish. In the late 1800's and early 1900's who wanted to be known as an "Indian" after the eastern newspapers got through with their propaganda? Nothing has changed because the fact is, "The love of Money is the root of all Evil." They know what the public wants to hear and so they make merchandise of it and sell it all the while dulling the ears to the truth. I am not surprised at the failure of and evidently the deliberate ignoring of truth in this production. As I say I did not see it but we must certainly approach these procuctions with care and reserve. I can only wish it would be different but history has proven otherwise and the hearts and minds of men have only confirmed it.
Does this mean we must live in defeat? Never, we are commended to never grow weary in well doing, holding up the truth, doing good, fighting for the right and against Evil in any form it takes. In this neverending battle in every generation we must remind ourselves Evil can take many forms and use any person, race, or unit in society so many times we may even have to stand before and against those who have at one time been close to us. What remains is that we be found faithful before our God and Creator ! ED

[1_optimistic]

A wise man in the Bible by the name of Solomon said it,"there is nothing new under the sun." Even today in the present war and danger our nation faces I listen to the accounts from the men who have just returned to know the true situation there and how they believe in what they are trying to accomplish. In the late 1800's and early 1900's who wanted to be known as an "Indian" after the eastern newspapers got through with their propaganda? Nothing has changed because the fact is, "The love of Money is the root of all Evil."



That's true, nothing is new under the sun and the love of money is the root of all evil. I am in my mid-twenties and I've never "directly" experienced anything drastic before on U.S. soil. Sometimes I sit and wonder if another "Rosewood" or "Wounded Knee" could happen in this country during my lifetime? Very scary to think about.:(

That's why I look to the hills and put ALL my faith in God. We never know when it's our "time to crossover", so I make it my business to put God's agendas before mine and honour HIM EVERYDAY.:D

IN JESUS NAME, AMEN!

[Mousini78]

We did watch the movie. The main thing that bothered me was the modernizing of everything from language to clothing. I didn't feel it an accurate portrayal of people from that time frame...but, as Ken told me...the movie was marketed to the HBO crowd and that age group (20s and 30s).

I knew there must have been a lot left out of the movie...it moved so quickly through the time frame. Would probably been better as a mini series and had more time to be accurate. Since I am not an expert in NA history, I can't address the accuracies of the actual happenings. I do feel it fell short of what it could have been. JMHO
Becky

[Mousini78]

I think something of that nature could easily happen in this day and age. People become terrified of the unknown...look at the people persecuted after 9/11...store owners drug out and beat up or killed because they looked mideastern.

People do strange things when desperate....watching Jericho (and it's not as good as it could be, either) I see what could happen if there were a nuclear attack on the US. That just makes me more glad that I live in a rural area...and I learned a long time ago...make every minute count....you never know what's around the bend.

[Tom]

Hey Folks, wel B.M.H.at W. knee was filmed about 2 hrs. from here and I did a small bit of work for that movie.
My first reaction to what I was shown was that even the costumes (ofcourse) were not made for the movie, but many of the costumes were made for eastern themes and really if you look at the costuming you can faintly see a very watered down version of the "real Mc Coys".
Custer Battle field is within a days drive of here and if people want I could probably post images from there here on the forum, but I have never been there although some of my family lived "down wind" from it for generations.
I personally have no reason to go to such a place, but rather would go to more sacred grounds, the battle field is supposed to be as cold as back then and some say that there are ghosts that still reside there.
AS for the film I have not seen it but since I do know what some of thier budgeting was like (atleast for my part) I can tell you that HBO doesn't have much of a budget for this type of movie, it was made on the cheap!
I know several people that were in the movie and I don't believe that many of them are of Lakota heritage, so I have to ask if any of the folks in the movie are really familiar with the story and the history of the Lakota peole and the Battle of the Little Big Horn.
I always try and take the best form these movies, like the articles that you see about people in the news none of them are really as correct as they could be, it's filtered and re-filtered white washed and edited.
I was once visiting with some very English friends and it was about the time Pocahontas came out, my Native friends and I were on the same page, "why did the not tell the truth about this story" my english friends said that "we" didn't understand and gave the movie some sort of a title, it was not "Epic" I assure you , infact it was closer to parady.
Anyway that's what folks do, they tell history to themselves , digest the make me feel goodstuff and carry on giving thier version of what happened. We all do accept the truth on our own ground, the fall out is we don't enable the people in this case the Lakota to tell thier own story!
I won't even get into the other native movies that have come out, but other than to say this, if it's not your story and you can't ask the people most involved in the storey to help then leave it alone!

[malisa]

i have to say i agree a bit with all of you!! i watched the movie, there were some parts that were true & others not. white man did make us change our names, they did swindle us out of our land, & yes it all to do with money!! they also did what they do best...lied to us & break promises! they were jealous of us cause we were livin good & if they got greedy cause they were livin ruff.

[rockhound]

I saw the movie and was not impressed. I haven't read the book (yet), so I can't compare the two.

That being said, I thought the movie showed Sitting Bull and the Lakota in a bad light.

[malisa]

jealousy is the green eyed monster that sucks our spirits dry of all that is generous & wise!!

[malisa]

i agree rockhound

[Steve-o]

I think anyone who places too much into a movie/gets upset with a movie, has way too much time on their hands. It is called the entertainment industry for a reason, and to look for something "on a grand scale" as far as facts go from HBO...well there is a reason it is called "The Beastmaster Channel".

I never really ever hear about people raising such a huff over films like "The Untouchables", "Bonnie & Clyde", or even the movie "Deliverance" with it's many stereotypes of people from the Appalachians that simply are not true. But as soon as an Adam Beach film, or anything with NA's in it is released, people start complaining about the "bad light". People complained about "The New World" not being representative of the Native peoples, yet it involved every Native tribe across the U.S. and from Canada.

Again, films are not to be taken literally. It is just entertainment. If people think they can deliver a better representation of "Wounded Knee", then they should grab a camera and make the film. I know indy film makers personally who made outstanding films with just one camcorder. But I seriously doubt anyone complaining will ever do that...they like to moan and groan too much.

"Critics need jobs too" ~ B.B. King

[malisa]

very well put steve-o!!!

[Buffalowm]

I watched the movie and I was so disappointed. We were betrayed in such a disrespectful way. I watched Into The West a couple of years ago on TNT. That has been the closest to the real story that I have ever seen in a movie or on tv. I bought that movie. It is a set of 6 cd's. If you have not seen it try and get it. There were times in that movie that I had to cry. Everytime I watch it I still cry. It was like living back in those days.

Jade

[Ed Yancey]

You have all made excellent comments on this so I have only one thing to add. The well said cliche " The one who wins the war lives to write the history, or something like that." My GGgrandfather never owned a slave and never would, he didn't believe in it! When he entered the war of secession he fought for his country because it was being invaded by other states and believed deeply in his right to defend his home and family. He was in Pickett's charge when 15,000 men fell dead or dying , wounded and captured . He spent the rest of the war in a federal prison under extreme circumstances and came home carrying lead in his body. I refuse to watch the movie Gettysburg and so cannot comment on it but I feel too close to the subject after sitting and listening to the older members of my family who came out of the 1800's having lived through this time. Just remember the side that wins the war tells and writes the history! This knowledge alone could well mean we approach movie, tape, CD, or book (even school books) with well informed minds. We had an old country expression, "Don't believe everything (some say anything) you hear and only half of what you see."
That would really keep us on our toes when interpreting what we are told or think we have seen. Again, I am not surprised when the communication options of our present time leave us still waiting for nothing but the truth, the only truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ED

[Steve-o]

I must be just of a different mindset, because I easily overlook it all as entertainment. Plenty movies in regards to my family, ancestry, what-have-you have been made and do not represent anything "truely" regarding anything, or regarding the families in whole.

HBO had a documentary film about my wife's family descendants out a while back called "American Hollow". This showed a very "backwoods" look at my wife's side of the family. But it only showed the life of "one" of the families that are related to/descended from my wife's family. My wife's immediate family certainly does not live like those portraid in the film in any way, shape, or form. We have a copy of the film, and it has been passed around a bit, and we just joke about it, in jest, because one cannot help whom one is related to and we know we are not like that in any way. To get upset by it would be, in our opinion, pointless.

The Disney film about Pocahontas, and the film "The New World" also pertains to my wife as she is a descendant of Pocahontas. We know full well that both of these films have errors in facts, but again we do not become "offended" by any of it. Our opinion is that film-makers take on certain "allowances" to try and make a fim more interesting to the general public who could care less about any of it. Plus we know that the only accurate portrayal would only come if someone from the 1600's was still alive to be able to convey what actually did happen. What is said in most motion pictures, as far as in biographical context goes, certainly could not have been what the actual person said or did. Again very few of the GP even care...they just want to see a good film.

"The Mothman Prophecies" is another film that pertains to my family. The whole "Cornstalk Curse" thing is the premise of the film, and The Mothman for that matter. The only mention of my ancestor, and his alleged curse, in the film came in the form of a small narrative in the DVD booklet. The only thing factual in the whole film was the Silver Bridge collapse. Still it was a decent thriller, but again represented the Point Pleasant people in a backwoods/ignorant sense. Again, I certainly felt nothing about it that caused me to get angry over the mis-representations.

I look at film as entertainment, just like the old westerns where the cowboys had revolvers that could shoot 300 bullets without reload. Or the scene in the Jody Foster film where she walks away unscathed from a plane that has just been bombed. Directors take certain freedoms to make the film more for entertainment than fact in most cases.

In my opinion, which probably isn't worth a plug nickel to most, instead of fuming about a film and "mis-representations" therein, we should use the mind and the mouth God gave us and teach our children what is fact and what is fiction. I was taught that a long time ago and often talk to my children about their ancestry, disregarding the countless sites and books written about my ancestors and family, and telling them the truth. Again, I might be a bit different than most, but that was how I was raised and that is what I do. After all, our children are the ones who will be in charge of things when we are all gone. The more they know, the more they will be equipped to handle all the misconceptions, bad lights, etc., because they will know the truth.

[rockhound]

Steve-O,
You have the right mindset and I think many of us agree with it to a point. You also seem to have a lot of relatives in movies. :)

The problem is this is just another missed opportunity to share the truth. So much of what we "know" as history is myth. Myths that were passed down throughout history because of "entertainment."

Whether it be poems, books, or now movies, myths are perpetuated each time a dishonest history is regurgitated.

Did any of you see "Assume the Position, Mr. Wuhl" (again on HBO)? In it, he dispels many myths of American History that have become "fact" to 99% of us.
http://www.hbo.com/apps/schedule/ScheduleServlet?ACTION_DETAIL=DETAIL&FOCUS_ID=612711
Ever heard of Israel Bissel? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Bissell

"Although Paul Revere is better known due to the epic poem by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Bissell was the subject of the less well known "Ride, Israel, Ride," an epic poem by Marie Rockwood of Stockbridge. According to Syracuse University professor of television and popular culture, Robert Thompson, this is not representative of the relative importance or heroism of each feat; rather, "Paul Revere rhymes with a lot more than Israel Bissell". Bissell's place in history was even further smudged by several historical documents which refer to him as "Trail Bissel". Nevertheless, there were an unknown number of other riders whose names are now completely forgotten."

Bissel rode 345 miles to warn of the British, whereas Revere only rode 19 miles. If I were a Bissel descendant, I'd be upset everytime a new book or movie perpetuated the myth.

[Dreaminghawk]

Becky only misquoted me slightly. .... I think I said this movie was made to entertain 20 to 30 year old white kids. It didn't do a damn thing for me. btw... why is it even being compared to the excellent book by the same name? It has no relation to it. Does it say "based on the book by the same name"? It is HBO entertainment, not something to get your loincloth in a wad over. Just my opinion.

[Bushtick]

Hello Steve-O,
Do you mind me asking if the film you mentioned " American Hollow" was about the Bowlings/Bollins/Bolling family of Kentucky? I saw a doc several years ago, not all of it, as I missed several parts, of a year in the life's of this family. I have tried since then to find it airing again, to no avail. But I also forgot the title! I think I might have seen a book in Books-a-Million also about this same family, but was in a hurry and didn't write down the title, and then promptly forgot it.
I am related to the Bollings family line of Wise Co., VA, who also states they are connected to the Pocohontas line. My relation to this family line in mostly thru marriages.
Anyway, I have often wished I could see all of the documentary. And your posting brought it back to mind. Just wondering if it was the same one.
Take care

[Steve-o]

Yeah, Same film. My wife is a Bowling descendant from the Hazzard County Ky. area. Also connects to Aracoma Cornstalk/Bowling Baker in some way. I tease her whenever I see Wayne Newton on T.V.

[Steve-o]

Correction...Hazzard area of Perry County. My wife's family was from the Letcher County area, southeastern side of the state near Virginia.My wife's grandfather was a Bowling.

[Bushtick]

I haven't done much research on my Bolling's line, but I do have Collins's in Letcher Co, KY also. I visit a Uncle and Aunt in Jenkins every couple of years or so.
My Mullins side is the one that has married into Bollings, but I beleive I had Collins's marrying into Bollings also.
Thanks for mentioning the documentary, now I have a title and maybe I can locate it airing again sometime on PBS. I do see that the book is available, but it is very costly I think, so I can't go that route right now.
Interesting! She and I may be "kin".

[PappyDick]

Correction...Hazzard area of Perry County.

Another correction -- they spell it Hazard.

Hazzard was invented by the "Dukes of Hazzard" writing team, probably on the advice of the legal department -- lest any citizen of the fair state of Kentucky were to feel that his or her fellow townspersons (especially elected officials and law enforcement) were being depicted as ignorant hillbillies. With two Zs, nobody would think of a Kentucky connection.

Do y'all know why there are two Xs in EXXON?

[Tom]

Okay !why are there 2 x's in "Exxon"?
I always have to open the door that scares the hell out of people and me too, you know instead of running the other way, it's like "let's check this dude out!.
I promise my breech won't wad and and I won't "have a buffalo"., man!.

[PappyDick]

Best answer, I suppose, would be, "I don't know either; I was hoping somebody else would." But anyway, I'll post what Wikipedia says, which maybe flawed, but probably not as flawed as my memory. And I'll only add that we were told (in a linguistics class I took) that they had one of those big old punched-card computers search an early data base of all available languages, for something that sounded like "Esso," but was not anyone else's trademark and was not a swear word to anybody. (Apparently Esso is a swear word, in Tunisian Arabic or something like that; and they commendably didn't want to make enemies in the Middle East.) The computer came up with Exxon, and they went with it. This may be folklore, but hey, I'm a folklorist.

Here's the Wikipedia line:

Esso — the enunciation of the initials S.O. in Standard Oil of New Jersey.
Exxon — a name contrived by Esso (Standard Oil of New Jersey) in the early 1970s to create a neutral but distinctive label for the company. Within days, Exxon was being called the "double cross company" but this eventually subsided. (Esso is a trademark of ExxonMobil.) Esso had to change its name in the USA because of restrictions dating to the 1911 Standard Oil antitrust decision.

[Steve-o]

Tomato, Toe mah toe, Potato, Poe tah toe. We call them "maters" and "taters" around here because of how funny it sounds.

Because we joke about it in the family. I just got into the habit of spelling it with double Z's in emails and calling it Hazzard County, so it is hard to break the habit, so calling it, as well as spelling it... albeit "incorrectly", has just become second nature.

[Wachinika]

1_optimistic,

Thanks for bringing this great topic to us. I recalled the name of Carter Camp in passing but had never personally encountered him “round these parts”. My guess is he is a Southern Ponca (pronounced as a cross between a “B” & a “P”) BPonca. Also read at one point at least he was living on Rosebud. I much enjoyed learning of him online today. Any Wounded Knee II Vet cousin, of whom I learned he is one, has my utmost, humble respect.

Tom,

by Pocahontas…do you mean, the “Cartoon” or “Pocahontas Revisited”?


"I won't even get into the other native movies that have come out, but other than to say this, if it's not your story and you can't ask the people most involved in the story to help then leave it alone!"That says it all, Tom. (Except, we’re intriqued as to your part in the production.)

Melissa,


"they were jealous of us cause we were livin good & if they got greedy cause they were livin ruff."That you see it as jealousy tells me your heart…you know what was suppressed was the superior.


However, I think my ‘ol Prof was right when she said, to minimize the indigenous peoples as “savage” and “less than”, gave the pioneers the justification to take their land. (By the way Tom, my Prof had dual Canadian and U.S. citizenship, which gave her an openess needed here.)

Steve-o,

By “Indy” do you mean, from India? darn Columbus’ error can get confusing!, or from Indianapolis?, or NDN?


"Again, films are not to be taken literally. It is just entertainment. If people think they can deliver a better representation of "Wounded Knee", then they should grab a camera and make the film. I know indy film makers personally who made outstanding films with just one camcorder. But I seriously doubt anyone complaining will ever do that...they like to moan and groan too much."


I believe the topic of Wounded Knee can and and never should be regarded as "Entertainment”.


You know I respect your heritage because of your teeth. :D
(I had that root-canal apparatus in my mouth so darn fast I couldn’t ask a question! I’m also getting new front teeth and am happy to say, you are right, they are pre-made teeth and by gup-by-golly, they are scooped in the back, so at long last I’ll be able to say the NDN sounds I couldn’t before, like “th” (Thl) as in Bthin = good. Now, I believe this means that my teeth were made in Japan, or more likely these days, China, anyway, they got them right! Hopefully, is no harmful chemical is in them.:o )

Well…remember how you wanted us all to know that the Mulugeon Video on U-tube was fiction and how you have told us that it is so important to distiquish between fact and fiction regarding Melugeon and YOUR family…well, it is, in my opinion, even more important to do the same regarding Wounded Knee. Because in my opinion, Wounded Knee is not only genealogy but genocide.

In kind, on a historical topic, as the genocide of Wounded Knee, we, the public have the right to expect accuracy. And when we are failed, we, the people have the right and obligation to make known the falsehoods, without being required to become filmmakers. A culture is judged by the art it produces, and many expect film to be art.


"Critics need jobs too" ~ B.B. King (Knowing BB’s kind heart, I think this meant being a critic is a worth while job…not that critics should get a job in addition to being critics.)


With all that all of our ancestors of all nationalities have endured, this is what we have; freedom of speech and religion, and the right to exercise it. If you read the history, I think we’ve taken two steps forward.

[Steve-o]

Oh...I forgot about "spell check", also I am using an old keyboard which is harder to type on because of the layout. When I said "Indy", I meant "Indie" (typing slowly) as in "Independant".

When B.B. King was asked about what he thought about critics he laughed and said "I guess they need jobs too." He basically went on to say that they had no idea what they were talking about when talking about him. He said they were not there. So yes, it was in a nice way, but he was not being so nice about it as far as his opinion of them went.

I am not "making light" of Wounded Knee however. I am making light of the fact that, to quote a couple on here, getting your loincloth in a bunch over it is pointless. Again it is entertainment for the mass general public, much as "Pirates Of The Carribean" is. The general public, as is shown almost daily, probably have no idea where they come from, who they are connected to, or whatever. Did I say it was right? NO. But Hollywood and even HBO could care less about anything but the revenue brought in by viewers, or as with HBO...ratings.

Making me sound like I am "thoroughly entertained" by film is wrong and the point is missed. "Genocide" is not funny nor entertains me...when I say it is "Entertainment" I mean it is the film makers viewpoint, so I look at it as such because I know it is going to be wrong in some way. But, however wrong it is, HBO and most film makers could care less how anyone feels. It is all about the money. By voicing an opinion on a forum...well in my opinion, do you really think Hollywood or HBO comes here and is effected by it? I can overlook alot because I was raised to look over alot, so it boils down to "What is the chaff to the wheat?" with me. If others are bothered by it, then they can make a better film, or they can contact HBO, or MGM, or whoever and state their feelings where they can actually be truely effected by it.

Freedom of speech I am all for, Freedom of religion as well, but it (speech) should be used in the right way for the wanted effect before it will do any good or make any changes. One can only hope to please perhaps 40% of the people sometimes...on a good day. Being aware that something most likely is going to be not to one's liking actually prepares one for when it occurs.

Like I said before, regarding the YouTube video...anyone can do or think as they please. I know it is needless to put so much into the area because they are not Melungeon. But if one wants to believe it, the books, the theories, land records as proof of descendancy...believe me, I say "Go For It". Art may define us to some degree as a nation, but the efforts persued that "may be" toward a bloodless revolution is more harmful than what art portrays us as a nation. I don't buy into it all, at all...but who am I to say. All I can give is my personal insight to the area and the families.

No harm, no foul...just exercising my right to an opinon and view.

Shovel teeth has nothing to do with race. Again everyone has them. the MHA again put a statement on their site about it. But again...believe what one will.

[Wachinika]

To Steve-o, my friend,


"I am not "making light" of Wounded Knee however. I am making light of the fact that, to quote a couple on here, getting your loincloth in a bunch over it is pointless. Again it is entertainment for the mass general public, much as "Pirates Of The Carribean" is. The general public, as is shown almost daily, probably have no idea where they come from, who they are connected to, or whatever. Did I say it was right? NO. But Hollywood and even HBO could care less about anything but the revenue brought in by viewers, or as with HBO...ratings.”
To say it is entertainment for the masses and doesn’t matter… how is that different than Germany in the 40’s? The “masses” do have a brain and if given the right information may exercise it as a vote in this experiment of America and prevent any future outcome similar to Jackson’s removal of Indian Nations to Concentration Camps (reservations).


”By voicing an opinion on a forum...well in my opinion, do you really think Hollywood or HBO comes here and is effected by it? I can overlook allot because I was raised to look over a lot, so it boils down to "What is the chaff to the wheat?" with me. If others are bothered by it, then they can make a better film, or they can contact HBO, or MGM, or whoever and state their feelings where they can actually be truly effected by it.”

Extremely good point, Steve! We should all do that.


“but the efforts pursued that "may be" toward a bloodless revolution is more harmful than what art portrays us as a nation. I don't buy into it all, at all...but who am I to say.”I am sorry, but I don’t understand any of this. It sounds important. Can you break it down for me?

As for Shovel teeth, perhaps my next destination will be Missouri, the "show me state", because I'm going to have to make alot more friends of all races and do some more field research to show me this.:D

“No harm, no foul”
I can see you are sharing the coping skills that have gotten you by as a bi-racial brought up in the white community, but I think there is harm and foul in not at last giving NDNs with out that position, their full place as the elders of our land and equal citizenry before the law, rather than the dumb Indians Carter Camp says he saw portrayed. As a people claiming NDN ancestry, I think these things matter.

I too hope some NDN produced films come around. Until then, letting them know what we expect and want is the best we can do and may also help bring the NDN produced films to mass media. The great #s of NDN's and mixed bloods probably do have marketing significance. Given all of the air time given to Black America…we should figure in.

I’ll try to find links tomorrow for any of us who care to contact them with our concerns.

Thank you, Steve for guiding me in that direction.

~ Peace and Love to you and yours

[Steve-o]

By "bloodless revolution" which is a term that takes on many forms, and has over the years. Originally an English term concerning a war they were in...what I mean is...well actually one has to ask themselves one main question.

Why does a race from the middle east, who are basically taught to "hate" Americans, or as the extremists like to spell our country "Amerika", and are taught at a young age, and are basically trained to hate and look at killing Americans...why do they all of the sudden want us all to be their Melungeon brethren? Even true Muslims, not all but quite a bit, state that we are all Melungeons in their "propaganda", and quote Kennedy's book as if it were a Bible, yet Kennedy has been proven a fraud, intentionally and accidentally.

Their facts have even been proven false. Elvis Presley was not of Melungeon extraction. The estate has a genealogist working on the family and has shown that Gladys Presley was descended from a Jewish lady.

Abraham Lincoln: Abe Lincolns mother was named Nancy Hanks. For years researchers have been baffled and still are over which Nancy Hanks was Lincoln's mother. There were a known 45 Nancy Hanks born between the late 1700's and early 1800's. If Lincoln researchers cannot say for certain, then it is proof that the Melungeons certainly could not.

What happened to the Portuguese as being the real Melungeons, now it is the Moors and the Turks. Even alot of NA's think people buying into all this are not using their heads.

What is the Melungeon agenda? What is the reason behind them wanting to be Muslim all of the sudden? Fear of another 9/11? Well let's put history and facts into perspective. Again the extremist Muslim groups all want us dead, to think oneself as immune if the unlikely happens of a middle eastern takeover of the U.S., does one actually believe professing to be a Melungeon is going to save them from being executed? I would fathom a guess that no one of that regime would care....bye bye...bullet to the back of the head.

So why the switch? Why is it so important? You mention WWII propaganda, well look at the way Melungeon theorists are putting their story out there.
I am not a conspiracy follower or believer, but none of them allow for anyone to speak their mind against them. I have watched plenty be attacked on genforum for stating how they feel. I was contacted by a few who questioned them that said they received email threats for speaking out, and then watched as their thread was deleted. So the question is "Why?" Anything that might show another point of view is removed and in a vicious manner. "Freedom of Speech" my butt. To me it is "Believe what I say...or else"..."Your point of view does not matter." It is genealogy, why all the sudden no one can speak their mind about the subject.

Their proof again is just last names, and "land records". Where is the hard proof? I was told once they had it, then was told later "well we will have it."
15 original TRI's in the 1600's could not encompass the world.

Their agenda is what concerns me. Could it be since they cannot take over the U.S. that they think they can work their way in by forcefully claiming we are related to them? Yeah in a Godly sense we are all related, but changing course when the bottom falls out for these people is the norm. They have no hard evidence, nor do they do anything but bully their beliefs upon others.

So could it be that they are doing this as some sort of take-over in the sense of a bloodless revolution? Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. But they sure are not forthcoming with why all the sudden the winds shifted and now they are all Muslim and Moor. Two groups that geographically really had no connections. Shifty actions, threats, no hard evidence...only names...

Like I said before...who were the original roughly estimated 15 original TRI's? Answer that and there would be no question as to where they came from.

Of course I expect someone will chime in on the whole Melungeon thing, but if they do...don't give me the usual retoric. Show me the proof. Not a census marked otherwise with a "proposed" Melungeon surname. Not the usual "They don't know who they are" nonsense, because it is obvious they have no idea who they are. Or ask for my responses to be pulled which will only prove my point. Genealogy is not about "he said she said", it is about finding the facts to support your claims.

I listed so many families I descend from and that my wife is descended from, and have spent years digging, and will for many more years. I am no longer folled into believeing much of anything on a "he said she said" basis. My maternal side reeks of Shawnee and hints at a Powhatan connection, as does my wife...although hers definitely has Powhatan. I have ripped into many of whom I speak of on a personal level to show me proof. None has surfaced, just more theories. Theories can only become fact by hard proof, not stories.

I am not bitter, just speaking the truth. For everything thrown at me saying I am Melungeon, I have been able to throw proof, or guidance to the proof down which sends them to their corner. Anymore I cannot escape them, nor do I care to because I have proof in what I say. But for me to just "Shut Up" because it is the "Politically Correct" thing to do, and not speak the truth...well that just isn't going to happen because they are placing a "stigma" on my ancestors, along with "stereotypes" concerning their appearance.

I do not need to be swayed into believing I am Melungeon, not only because I am not, but because I am not "lazy minded" to not dig for the truth and fall for the old "Have you heard your ancestor was Native American and you cannot find out anything about them?...then you are most likely Melungeon."
This stuff doesn't always just present itself, you have to remove yourself from the computer every once in a while and dig. It may take years, but it does not happen overnight.

Totally out of context for this thread, and I appologise. I am not angry at anyone, but am at a mindset after the death of my wife's grandmother just this week, who was married to a Bowling, that I am really sort of privy to the real deal. I'll go by what they say, my wife's uncle spent a ton of years in family research, over falling for the latest fad.

I often say sarcastically that I am one of the lucky ones because of my constant and forevermore connection to this whole Melungeon thing. But in thinking just now, I am lucky because I descend from them all and am married to a wife who is pretty much descended from the rest. Real truth lies there for me, and is why I can shoot down most of the theory thrown at me on an almost daily basis. I am young, and I will be around for a long time. I seriously doubt, following the track record so far of the Melungeon theorists, that any real documented proof will ever surface. It all just get's easier to handle everyday because I deal with it all everyday.

Steve

[Tom]

Wasdika, I believe that i posted here maybe before you arrived taht it had made Sitting Bulls moccasins, I have no idea if he (August) wore them.

[sammarroq]

I watched the movie and I was so disappointed. We were betrayed in such a disrespectful way. I watched Into The West a couple of years ago on TNT. That has been the closest to the real story that I have ever seen in a movie or on tv. I bought that movie. It is a set of 6 cd's. If you have not seen it try and get it. There were times in that movie that I had to cry. Everytime I watch it I still cry. It was like living back in those days.

Jade

Jade,

I too watched "Into The West," twice! I agree, it is probably one of the best portrayal I have seen as well...my second favorite is "Crazyhorse."

I rented "Into The West," I think I should buy a copy as well, as I could watch it again and again.

Shirley

[malisa]

how many of us know the actual truth of what happened? white folks back than..& still today...have there biggest problem! liars swindlers, & backstabbers & greedy! they stole our land cause we were livin better than they were & they didn't like it! if they can't have somethin they want than no one can

[judith]

I agree with you, I saw Disneys "Pocohantas" and "The New World". Both were good movies, but like you said made for entertainment

Judith

[Wachinika]

Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: The Movie (5/25/07)
"Bury My Heart's Bias Against Indians"
By: Rob Schmidt
http://www.bluecorncomics.com/burymyht.htm

[Tom]

well this movie has won 17 emmies!
Not bad for all the crap that it has been given, I guess everything has a flip side.
Congradulations!!!

[malisa]

ty Ton...nice to read that someone else thot the sameway i did about the movie. i too thot it wasn't to bad.

[malisa]

***tom** sorry about the spelling

[Wachinika]

Well Congratulations to you, Tom :), and Sitting Bulls moccasins!;) I didn’t catch the movie. Was there beading on them? I did see you said you don't know if he wore them. I wonder.
I couldn’t find what the 17 categories of nominations are… says they’ll be September 16th on FOX. I’m happy for the actors. Now there’ll be lots of good-looking people at the presentation!
This could give those with their criticisms more of a chance to keep speaking out and perhaps increase understanding of their perspectives.

[malisa]

wachinika..ty for the compilment

[Wachinika]

Hi Malisa,
Hmm, I didn't think of it that way. I've been reading HERIBERTO DIXON, A Saponi by Any Other Name Is Still a Siouan, (American Indian Culture and Research Journal 26 no3 65-83 2002) this afternoon.


"Vest recalls a 1724 visit to the Saponi-Monacan around Fort Christanna during which the Reverend Hugh Jones had made an interesting reference to a creator figure called "Mahomny who lives beyond the sun."(FN55) Furthermore, in Winnebago (now Ho Chunk), a language that Vest claims is mutually understandable with Tutelo, Ma-un-na, or Earthmaker, which appears cognate with Jones' Mahomny.(FN56) At a minimum, the prefix ma is suggestive of the root for earth as in ama (Tutelo); á:ma (Ofo); and amá (Biloxi).(FN57) This ma root for earth is observable in the Western Siouan languages (Dakota, Nakota, Lakota) for earth in maka(FN58) and makoce.(FN59) In 1716, Fontaine estimated that 200 Saponi, Manahoac, and Tutelo were living at Fort Christanna.(FN60)

So I guess we can thank Mahomny, Earthmaker. I hope when they win they will thank God with their traditional names for him.

[BlondeyeLaurie]

Well goodness...I have not seen the Wounded Knee movie...just too busy to care lately but with all the hooplah I may just watch it for curiousity's sake. I have seen porteyals before that left me feelign lackluster but a movie is just that...a portreyal...some more fictional than others. As to the "You Tube" link I fed soem time back I will say that I posted it only because it showed pictures of some of my ancestors....liek I have said before...I do not consider my ancestors Melungeons nor myself but in defense of the notion of it...I have to say that had it not been for the surge of Melungeon sites and books I would not have been led to the discovery of my maternal family as being called Carmel Indians ...and made my way here and begun exploring possible Siouan ancestry and examination of other possible tribal affiliations. I still do not have my sure-fire answers but feel confident they will find me/us. I do not favor the derrogatory flavor of the Melungeon term but realize it's importance in my journey genealogically. Some ppl may well choose to be called such...that is their perrogative....I just happen to take a different route. I still cannot with any clarity know yet what a Carmel Indian is....and some of the "old timers" have stated that the Brushcreek group identified themselves as a remanant band of Shawnee...that has yet to be proven also. Some filed Eastern Cherokee applications...but that too yet remains to be proven. The exactitudes of which one or two and twelve groups my ppl came from will eventually surface....if we all keep digging and talking and asking and researching. Blessings to all~~~Laurie

[techteach]

I just watched this movie. We are recruiting students to go with me to Pine Ridge again next spring. I would not show it as a tool for background; it did not stress enough that the Wounded Knee Massacre was of innocent women and children.

Techteach

[melungeon]

I apologize I am late responding to this thread. As you can see by my name I am of Melungeon descent and am proud of it. I do not believe in the Moor turkish theory either. Do not judge those of us who know who we are by the many crazy theories out there. It makes me sad that there is so much controversy that others that might be descended are afraid to find out about there true heritage. Much like what was done to our native forebears, afraid to be proud of a heritage. Those of us who know who we are do not buy into any of it and our proud of the heritage. Your message gives the impression to those reading it who do not know what is going on in our community a bad taste. :( That is not a good thing. We ( true melungeons) have been ridiculed and made fun of long enough. My grgrandfather couldn't vote. Walter Plecker mentioned my family personally in one of his letters, singling them out. And the origins are clear and contain some influence among the Siouan people, that is why I am a member of this forum. We know we did not spring from the mountains of Tennesee. The appelation Melungeon was coined when the group arrived there. First mention of it is in the early 19th century in the area.
Just the same as any term given by the dominant WASP society. Brass Ankle,Lumbee,Croatan,Turk,Redbone,Smilings etc etc. For a good understanding of the Melungeon people, the best website to see is

http://www.geocities.com/ourmelungeons/front.html

On additional note, I agree it is sad when these movies come out that do not do justice to the true heritage of America and the first Americans. Into the West was a good movie, as you said , more true than many of the others. You can find some good Independent films like Morning Song that are written and produced by Native Americans, that would be my choice.

[elkriver]

Why is it most Native movies are about the Sioux and Wounded Knee, everytime a new one comes out it seems it is just another version of what happened at Wounded Knee. We know about the Sioux and what happened at Wounded Knee already GEEZ. what about the 500 other Tribes in the Americas I'm sure most have a story to tell. Just my 2 cents.

[elkriver]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np-TYoZE5NM

[melungeon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsYRxoQtCbo

This one is a little blunt, but more to the point.

[1_optimistic]

Why is it most Native movies are about the Sioux and Wounded Knee, everytime a new one comes out it seems it is just another version of what happened at Wounded Knee. We know about the Sioux and what happened at Wounded Knee already GEEZ. what about the 500 other Tribes in the Americas I'm sure most have a story to tell. Just my 2 cents.


I agree with you.

[Tom]

That should end the discussion here as the thread migration has run out, I think that there's better movies to discuss.