"I'm Part White But I Can't Prove It" [Archive]

Wachinika

04-25-2007, 04:02 PM

I Just saw the "My Hero's Have Always Killed Cowboys" T-shirt in the photo of Willie Nelson wearing it this morning. I've been singing that to myself all day. Actually Willy is singing it for me. I don't know what the rest of the words are so he just goes goes mm,mmm,mm in my head.

And I think a person could write a good article on all of the possible ramifications and different meanings that could be taken on and applied by "I'm Part White But I can't prove It." It can be funny on anybody and then you get to wondering why it is even a topic. It seems to melt the issue of race away, the requirement of blood quantum and maybe even genealogy...all of the "proving". Maybe we should just be. One of the pictures on the site said the dog was 100% Charpai (sp?).

All of the people on that site look like they're having so much fun. I have the very highest appreciation for what I think is the superior multi-faceted perspective of the Indian mind weather it's expressed as a political view, in humor, story telling, or material creations. To me, Indians always outshine, outwit and outsmart the Anglo.

Of course I don't really want cowboys or anyone and Indian people killing each other, but for the sake of all of the people who say they were hurt by portrayal of Indian people in westerns it's good to balance the scales with humor.

1_optimistic

04-27-2007, 01:57 PM

LOL!!! Now, I know I would not have a chance trying to prove that!

dovelady

04-27-2007, 06:03 PM

Ok. Maybe I'm a little dense, but I just don't get it. Are they making fun of people who say they are 'part Indian' but can't prove it?

If they are, it offends me.

If not, then someone please explain why this is so funny.
I'm just a little dense sometimes.

Ed Yancey

04-27-2007, 08:05 PM

Barb, may I agree with your response! I don't see anything funny about "My Heroes Killing Anybody !" Maybe I missed something and I am not someone to fall for the politically correct gagging of free speech, but any thing that has the smell of racial slur and making "fun" of any heritage we all have doesn't speak well of us or the direction we are taking. I still believe God (Creator) made of one blood all nations and if He didn't then He is not God (Creator). I'd be very careful looking up into His face and expecting any kind of acceptance when I have made lite and fun of His Handiwork. So far as the first Homeland security against Terrorism, there was already plenty of that before any European, Spanish, Portuguese, French or English ever set foot on this soil. In fact not only in America, but in Europe, Asia, and Africa we have terrorized our own as much as others have terrorized us. And less I sound too preachy or whatever there is a real force of terrorism loose in this world at this very moment that does not hesitate to kill their own even their children in order to take over and control this entire world with their form of hate. We would do well to put our personal prejudices behind us and join to resist this evil and radical movement. If we do not we will succumb just like our forefathers before us . They refused to join to form a solid front and even allowed the invaders to divide them. We have a common enemy once again and it remains to be seen if we are any wiser this time ? ED

Wachinika

04-27-2007, 10:04 PM

LOL!!! Now, I know I would not have a chance trying to prove that!

1_optimistic,
LOL,(as in LOLuv), my cousin.:) At first, knowing how hard it is to decipher "mulatto/white/black" records, I was thinking the white might be the easiest...then realizing they wanted that hidden too. I'm so happy your beautiful, shinning face is here to enlighten us. ;)

Wachinika

04-27-2007, 11:46 PM

Barb and Ed,

I’ve been reading and enjoying the writings of each of you here and have the greatest respect for you both. That you have these responses shows your experiences have not been the same as mine. I just stopped by quickly before retiring this evening. I will explain why I see this as humorous and give my viewpoint on the issues you raise regarding choosing sides, Ed, later.

One form of humour laughs at something that has hurt us or in this case damaged a culture. When my Father was dieing of cancer he made jokes about it. This is one way people survive painful situations. In the mean time I would ask you to please start to understand by reading my post #4 here, especially these words:

“Of course I don't really want cowboys or anyone and Indian people killing each other, but for the sake of all of the people who say they were hurt by portrayal of Indian people in westerns it's good to balance the scales with humor.”

And these posts also:

http://www.saponitown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2864&page=5

#71 by MistofRain752
“I was born in southwestern Virginia, not far from the place my daddy always referred to as the home place a log house next to a cave up in the mountains. Our family moved north to Ohio when I was a baby because of the mines closing. We lived in a very ethnic neighborhood. When I was a little girl I would go home crying because I wasn't, Italian, Polish or German whatever as my playmates was going to their celebrations, dances etc. and I couldn't be a part of it. On one of these occasions my daddy got me up in his lap and wiped my tears and said you are part Cherokee and be proud of it. There is native blood on both sides. As I grew up, became a woman and blended as my ancestors did. From time to time strangers would walk up to me and say your Cherokee aren't you and I would say yes I am. Including an anthropologist. I didn't think about it much, but there was always something missing in my life.”

#72 by Myself
I've heard many Indian people around our age say they were hurt by the image of Indians in westerns. They felt they were always portrayed as bad. But my father always got excited when they came on and would call me to sit on his lap and point out all the things about them he could and say how good they were at everything they did. And when they rode off he would always say,
"They'll be back! You watch for them now."

In these western scenes Indians always came out of nowhere as the "Bad Guys" and killed the cowboys, the "Good Guys". Willy Nelson is mixed white and Indian and made alot of money singing cowboy country and western songs, and "My Heros Have Always Been Cowboys". It's funny when he gives the other side the benefit of the phase for once. It's backwards and so it's funny because of the surprise element. It's "How would anglos feel if the cowboys were always portrayed as bad? If the hero was always Indian?" To people seperated on reservations this mattered.

Do they make fun of mixed people? Yes, some of them do. Many say that since the 60's and the hippy movement they are bombarded with people coming up to them saying that they are part Indian. And the second part of it is often but they don't know how or what kind etc. If you appear white how would you like it if the first and only thing Indian people said to you was.."I'm part white but I can't prove it". Like maybe we should just say "Hello..how are you?", Instead of always making race an issue. Many Indians still hurt and suffer. They are the ones who are offended and this is one way to let you know. They find it strange that Americans do these things to them then want to claim to identify with them. It's like a number of western Indians dislike anthropologists because first whites tried to destroy them and then work hard trying to learn about what they destroyed. There is anger and it is vented as humor and wit as in the title of the popular book, "Custer Died For Your Sins". With all they have taken from dominent white culture I find it funny when they are in my father's words, "back", and turning the tables.

For myself, out here, yes I've been approached by important Indian men on numerous occasions and told the story of wannabes and asked why everyone is Cherokee? I bravely tell them of myself. I get tired of it. It would be funny to me to show up at important Indian events with my blue eyes wearing this shirt. It would change the conversation a bit and make them think a little bit about what it's like to be mixed. It's like minimizing the white..favoring the Indian..all said with a shirt. It's making fun of them making fun of me. That to me is funny.:D It minimizes racism and show its' ridiculousness. That is good.:) When People on reservations have a life style equal to those who now own the land they used to live on then there will be no need for this kind of humor. Until then it eases the pain of racial prejudice so prevalent in these parts of the country.

Wiblihon,
Dianne

Dreaminghawk

04-28-2007, 12:16 AM

With my twisted sense of humor, I find the "tongue in cheek" and satirical or ironic t-shirts to be quite humorous.
Seeing someone with the appearance of a fullblood wearing "My grandmother was an English princess" always makes me smile. It says so much about what has been suffered..... and says it with humor. Sometimes you laugh to keep from crying..... nothing wrong with that.
My favorites are "Fighting terrorist since 1492" and "My left arm is Indian" (Love that one because of the inevitable "I'm part indian." "What part?" exchange. The shirt heads that off ;-)
btw.... does everyone realize that Willie Nelson's IRS problems were a result of his public support of AIM and Leonard Peltier?
Which reminds me of another batch of shirts...."Real FBI (Full Blood Indian)" and "FBI (Fry Bread Inspector)"

Wachinika

04-28-2007, 12:32 AM

Thanks Dreaminghawk,
I just don't get out enough like you and Mousini. I hadn't seen Fry Bread Inspector...:cool: :D :D

And I didn't know that is what Brought Willy's trouble on...must go try to research that.

PappyDick

04-28-2007, 07:47 AM

Speaking of Willie Nelson, that "objectionable" line, My heroes have always killed cowboys, is just an ironic inversion of his line, "My heroes have always been cowboys," which I believe is in the "Red-headed Stranger" lyric.

For the tee shirt folks, it has to do with which side you cheer for while watching old western movies. But Willie uses "cowboy" more or less to symbolize the loner who is always on the move, and socially swimming against the main current -- something he has done for much of the past fifty years. (NOT to represent the invincible enemy of movie Indian people.) I think he is OK with this tee shirt company's sending up his phrase, or they wouldn't have his photo (posing with one of their shirts) over that sendup on their web site.

PappyDick

04-28-2007, 08:57 AM

Correcting myself (a victim of partial recall; but also an alumnus of the 1977 "Willie Nelson's 4th of July Picnic," and other fun times involving ol' Willie, when we lived in Austin). The lyric in question is not from the "Red-headed Stranger," nor even on that album. It may be read here:

http://www.cowboylyrics.com/lyrics/nelson-willie/my-heroes-have-always-been-cowboys-2510.html

Ed Yancey

04-28-2007, 12:48 PM

I just read post #4 and it is fine for me or anyone else to give more thinking and reasoning ability to one group or another BUT ? Some of the statements I am hearing here if we are not careful are interpreted by especially our younger generations as grounds to be prejudiced. Two wrongs never made so much as one right and I can be proud of my native, scot, english ,welsh heritage without bordering on the path racial supremacy and encouraging younger and more thoughtless minds to walk that path.
How would you go about brainwashing the minds of others to eventually persuade them to your movement or way of thinking ?
We all know that in the 1880's,1890's and early 1900's the eyes and ears of every person was bombarded with the press of that day and the infamous exploits of the "Indians." This was a time when definitely wrong there was
" a place for whites' and "a place for blacks (somewhat) " but there was no place for an Indian. My Grandmother and her family lived in this time frame and she grew up in this era. No , I have never experienced many of the mockings , prejudice, and hatreds they knew but I know in my heart and sat and listened to her fears and sadness. The amazing and wonderful thing about this lady was there was no hatred or animosity in her heart and she was determined not to forget the past but not to live in it either. She taught me "I Cain't Died and was buried on a mountain side" which certainly revealed her stamina to persevere even with early loss of husband and 11 children to raise and failing health never giving up. She said over and over " You don't throw rocks because you live in a glass house."
What I am saying is that many of the messages on many of the T-shirts of our day fall far short of giving a healthy statement to lift up the reader when we have all too many readers with unhealthy and unbalanced minds. It would do us well to really think through what we are displaying.
Now if I may give you some real humor and a true event. Someone in our church had shirts printed That on the front read "I will display These" in bold large letters. On the back was printed The Ten Commandments. Perfectly innocent and certainly not intended to be profane or indecent. Now can you picture a lady wearing this shirt and especially one who is fairly blessed with endowment ? If you were to approach this lady what would be the message to you ? The same thing applies to many of the bumper stickers we drive up behind. Cute and humerous statements and many time thought provacative and perfectly innocent but we need to be more thoughtful and more discerning. Any one can come up with a wise crack but what we need is a real message of TRUTH. Many times that can't be printed on a shirt or a sign but it can certainly be lived and spoken with a kind word.
Many times in our native past much happened when the younger more radical "smart allecks (sp)" took over and the wisdom of the elders was ignored. One more word and I will shut up but know this my remarks are not to antigonize or berate, or scold or fight anyone here or elsewhere but to speak of a more prudent way to express ourselves.
I love to sing gospel music and the words can be catchy and the music moving. Even the most agnostic could find themselves patting a foot. Then I listened to the words more carefully. One says "it started in my feet, filled me up full and complete." What I have in faith did not start in my feet but in my heart, the very seat of my emotion and affection and devotion. Whatever your religious belief and faith we would all agree it is not centered in our "FEET" for the feet can only take us where the center of our emotion, reason and will determines we should go. I don't sing that song anymore even though there is some truth and satisfaction in most of the other phrases. Why, because even though I could sing it and enjoy it and look over the weakness in it someone else may not be able to do so. I certainly do not believe any one of us mean any harm and for an old fogy (sp) I am just saying we need to be careful in what we say and the way we say it. My first exposure to these shirts was certainly not negative but the more I see of the unbalanced thinking today and what can be the provacative nature of some interpretations my opinion(and it may not count for much) simply says we need to be carefull and in the end there can be a better way to express or vent our frustrations, fears, and visions, and desires. May we always be led by a Higher and Greater Spirit Who loves all His Creation. ED

dovelady

04-28-2007, 01:08 PM

Thank you everyone for your explanations. :) But I do still feel they are making fun of us who are working so hard to retrace our roots.

I guess I'm a little sensative because I'm coming from years of being put down because I have lighter skin and blue/green eyes. Now my son, on the other hand, has black eyes and dark skin. He never has problems at powwows because he 'looks' Indian. Ok. I'll quit before I get into trouble now :)

Having said that, I do love Willie! Love his music and love him for all the good he has done in helping others. Even when the gov't went after him he didn't quit loving and helping people. He's a real hero to a lot of people.

Wachinika

04-29-2007, 10:26 PM

I said “I” find this hilarious and I still do. I didn’t say everyone had to. Looking at the archives I think this thread was no more offensive or potentially damaging to society or to be misunderstood by youth than most posts made under this topic.

Ed, I am offended when people make jokes about women’s breasts. Age wise you have only a few years on me. I don’t consider you to be of a different age group than myself. Indians are very good at educationg their children. I have no fear that a shirt that expresses their parents standing up against what they perceived as an injustice will add up to creating violence. I think the opposite of you. I think this is good for Indian youth.

I have been disgusted or offended at what I’ve read under “Know Any Funny Stories?” recently more often than not. But then I know I’m ultra-sensitive so I don’t expect others to conform to my standards.

I saw no humor in this image:

"No" , I said. "I'd been sitting in the street licking my butt when a car hit me."

But many others here did. And I thought that was why guys tell jokes like this...to shock the ladies.

And this one offended me on multiple levels:

"Candidate #2: Vote for me. I am a black man..... but not TOO black. My ggrandma was a Cherokee princess. Does this podium make my skin look lighter? Wanna see me tapdance?"

Given that ½ of our population are Democrats, this probably offended about ½ of us.

Myself, though it’s not my story, making fun of the Cherokee Princess story offends me…It is just misinterpretations between cultures. It was often leaders daughters given in marriage to establish a trade relationship during the fur trade. That families honor their Grandmothers with this story should not be ridiculed in my opinion and I do tell people that when they rag on it. And after searching the censuses I’ve seen the idea that it was always a Grandmother is wrong too. The principal of “I’m white but can’t prove it” is very similar to the Cherokee Princess idea. It is Indians making fun of people claiming to be Cherokee.

If they hadn’t been busy going after Imus they could have been here after that post. This is a site devoted to multiracial people. I would think it must have offended many.

I say, attempting to police the jokes posted here is way more than I would attempt. I would just live and let live.

Dreaminghawk

04-30-2007, 12:06 AM

To all:
Jokes by their very nature are often offensive and therein often lies the humor. When we can't joke about our plight, then we are truly lost. Yes, we are all mixed-bloods here...... it is our plight but also our greatest gift. Some will embrace the indian blood and thus BE indian. However, if you are "part indian", sensitive, or easily outraged then you will most likely just piss off most indians. Then you will be the joke. Such is the nature of ndn humor.

Wachinika

04-30-2007, 09:15 AM

Thank you Dreaminghawk for lending your experience and giving balance here.

Due to the Indian policy given to us by our Euro-American ancestors; we have a very difficult row to hoe. More times than not it is probably better to leave out the word “part” Indian. We usually don’t say part English, part German, and part Irish. However, there are very public instances where people without black hair who do believe they have Indian ancestry but who have not formally documented it, have been criticized for saying they “were Indian” in national Indian publications in articles written by Indian reporters respected by the Indian community. There I read the person should have said they were “part Indian” and should not say they are Indian unless they are an enrolled member of a tribe. Indian peoples and ideas come in as many varieties as any other people. No matter where we go we might be criticized by someone.

Where I grew up I estimate at least ¼ of the population said they were of Indian heritage and the community fully embraced and accepted this. Where I live now when I tell whites that, (now let me get this right, Dreaminghawk…) I’m Indian, at least 85% of the time they then greatly insult and criticize Indians right to my face. This will be in social situations, places of work, at school, you name it. My reaction varies depending on the circumstances and my mood from raising my head high and ignoring it, attempting to educate or explain, to putting them in their place with words and dramatically getting up and walking out on a group of people. By nature I am non-judgmental and respectful of people to the point of being silent. Ed has me thinking perhaps I need to become more assertive and develop phases of peace making to express when these situations present themselves, usually by whites.

There is great prejudice against Indians here to the degree of murders committed as hate crimes and not investigated or prosecuted. When activists speak here it is not to “stir up trouble”, but is necessary to counter and balance the extreme inequality before the law. Given the graveness of the situation I think answering it with thought provoking witty and humorous phases is not a bad thing. It is the University professors that lend support to these Indian causes within the community. It is at the Law College were I heard have heard Indian Activists speak and where I got my autograph. They are not the “younger more radical smart alicks taking over ignoring the wisdom of the elders”, they are the elders protecting the wisdom of their people. Indians here had no caves or mountains to retreat to in order to escape the invaders. One should be cautious in judging a situation they have not personally witnessed. I do have Indian friends who are the kindest, sweetest, most sensitive, respectful, and courageous people I know. Myself, I feel more comfortable among them.

Now…does anybody know any funny stories? :)

Ed Yancey

04-30-2007, 09:44 AM

First I want to apologize because I did not intend to make a joke of anyone's anatomy. My observation was intentions to present a message or word of truth or express a thought can be good but the method does not always justify the means. No one has any more respect for ladies than I do and my personal faith and commitment does not allow me nor am I inclined to make fun of or ridicule that which the Lord has made. I apologize again for that offense and in my own error somehow proved the care we must take in expressing ourselves.
For some years I have seen shirts with "NO FEAR" written on them and then I began to make note of the various statements they were making. I know the very basis of our faith and moral life is based on a "Fear" Awe, Reverence of God, Creator, The Lord and from this begins Wisdom through which we relate to our fellow man and hold ourselves in respect. Those shirts were with subtilty planting a statement or thought into the mind of every person who read them. We no longer have the generation of children and young people as when we were growing up. My grandchildren are being bombarded every day with ideas and life styles totally foreign to anything I ever knew. This may seem picky but what is the real motive behind the images , slogans, and "wise statements" we are bombarded with ? We have no idea if the person designing a shirt is simply intending to make a legitimate statement or if they belong to a more radical view that anyone not containing a specific or in fact any amount of "other" blood must eventually be driven out of the country. They accept no mixed bloods ! That thinking is out there and bigotry and prejudice is alive and well, I am sorry to say. Please do not believe I ever slander myself and others by making remarks that make fun of anyone in any manner. I believe I know something of how Barb feels, my heart is Native and whether movie, book or real life if the person and group fight a just battle I am on their side. My Grandmother happened to be the only "white child" in a family of 9 children. My search is greatly hampered because my first introduction is interpreted "who do you think you are, why is a white guy bothering me.?" For me " Fighting Terrorism Since 1492" is sort of a half truth. The implication is that all Europeans are Terrorist and that "All" Native American were safe from slaughter, enslavement, and eradication until Columbus arrived. We certainly know that is not true ! Plenty of that occured long before the first Spanierd, Englishman, or Frenchman ever arrived.
Now for real humour ! Sometimes the best humour of the day is when I look in the mirror in the morning ! What a dry and senseless world this would be if I could not laugh at myself. I think, no , I know the Lord has a sense of Humour or else how would He tolerate me. ED

Tom

04-30-2007, 12:20 PM

Hey Folks, well since I made the statement about liking a certain line let me explain;
My family has always been horse people; I had my first picture taken when I was on the back of a horse; when I was 12 years old I was the one that climbed on the back of an unbroken horse my first real job!,
My family has always had horses or rode them atleast until very recently, my brother-in-law owns about 40 of them!
Why did I find that " my heros have always killed cowboys" humorous because of the shock value, people have always thought that cowboys were the greatest guys on earth, let me re-assure you that they have not always been "there", did Holly Wood ever make fun of mixed bloods,?
Remember Yosemite Sam and Bugs Bunny "keeping down the fort" -"one little- two little - three little Indians four little- five little, six --OOOPS that one was a HALF BREED"! (NOT FUNNY)
Humor comes in all flavors and I like mine "dark and murky and a little bitter.!
Imagine one of the Lakota childrens fathers or brothers off to war, who would have been his hero?
If there's a song with a twisted line that helps me laugh at something that has bothered me in a day, then I'll laugh simple as that!
I used to make articles out of birch bark, one day a mixed blood guy that I knew said to me "hey half breed sell any wood today" I was really offended, later he told me he said it because he could and that he was a "half breed".
Dark or not humor makes me laugh and I like good humor, "I am part white and can't prove it", I'd bet some of my greatest heros would have worn one!

Dreaminghawk

04-30-2007, 06:30 PM

Wachiniki, your entire post was well said. This quote where you summed it all up is excellent:
>>>One should be cautious in judging a situation they have not personally witnessed. I do have Indian friends who are the kindest, sweetest, most sensitive, respectful, and courageous people I know. Myself, I feel more comfortable among them.<<<

The people that Becky and I have met here at Saponitown and on the NC-VA powwow trail are the best friends we have ever had. They are also some of the laughingest people we have ever seen. The secret to success is to be real...... what you see is what you get. ... oh, and keep finding the humor in things that ain't right about life. In my case what you get is sometimes an ornery old goat.... but I'll still be laughing ;-)

Wachinika

04-30-2007, 09:43 PM

Hey Tom, I grew up with horses too!

“What’s wrong with you?…did you grow up in a barn!?”

“Well, yes, I did.”

I love the smell of a horse barn.

I saw my Dad break 4 horses. I guess the most we ever had when I was home were 4. My (rich) uncle (not Indian) who lived 5 miles away had over 100 head and was breeding appaloosas. He started this as a business for a tax write-off and didn’t know much about horses so would always consult my Dad.

The last horse we got when I was still home was a dunn colored Appaloosa mare with a white blanket rump named Show Princess; not that I ever showed other than halter class in 4-H at the County Fair. Dad said he didn’t really believe in or like the idea of having to do every thing so structured, to follow all the rules to show and prefered just to ride free without having to think about it all the time. I was his girl so naturally I adapted that philosophy myself, probably in much of life. Here I thought the reason Dad always wore cowboy boots was because it made him as tall as Mom. Telling this story in this place I see it was because he was a Cowboy.

We had this narrow fenced area about 100 yards long from the cow pasture to the horse tank and windmill. Dad would do the ultimate breaking by riding the bucking horse up that lane. This was after he’d trained them to neck-rein from the ground. After he broke Princess then he’d saddle her up and put me on her back with him at my side with the plan for me to jump into his arms when she bucked. That worked well a time or two. One day she’d evidently bloated her belly out when he had tighten the cinch and when she bucked I and the saddle went the other way and I hit the ground. I must not have gotten hurt because that’s all of the story I remember.

I know my Dad learned how to handle horses from his Great Uncle John, son of Joseph, who the Indian family story comes from. We should compare methods of breaking horses to see if there are similarities. Though my Dad was influenced by his monthly subscription to The Western Horseman Magazine that he read cover to cover many times over. Dad didn’t believe in hitting horses. The one thing he did believe in was immediately twisting their lip hard if they bit you and to lightly kick them back in the leg if they kicked you. Dad also shoed horses for a lot of people; but never for money. He had an anvil and everything.

So I guess a reason we can laugh at the Willy’s joke like him is because we are "Cowpersons" and Indians too.

I’ve been saying to Indian friends for along time that the only real cowboys left are Indians. Most wear boots often. They just give me a strange look and don’t understand what I mean even after I explain. I think I just say something like…well the only real people left. I think you here, will understand.

Wachinika

04-30-2007, 11:36 PM

Everyone,
Please check out Blackindiangirl's post here we all need to read.

http://www.saponitown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=25384#post25384

rockhound

04-30-2007, 11:45 PM

I think the T-shirts are funny, but I wouldn't wear them myself.

Sometimes you just have to laugh, ya know.

sammarroq

04-30-2007, 11:49 PM

Most misunderstandings and offences are brought on by not understanding a culture. In my reading of history, I have seen many tragedies that could have been avoided had each side understood the other. I think...myself included, because we are mixed, are a little tighter wound when it comes to our roots and maybe a little defensive. I think...myself included, that we need to pay less attention to what others think of us and listen to our hearts.

I live in an area, where casinos have made the local NDNs wealthy, but there are others, such as Pine Ridge who are very poor. I have heard critics of both the wealthy and poor...:confused: I think those who talk badly, will do so regarless.

I read good book, Neither Wolf Nor Dog, on forgotten roads with an Indian elder. The writer of the book Ken asked the elder, (refering to Pine Ridge) "why are all these old cars just laying around" (paraphrase)? The Elder said, (paraphrase) the Indian in old times used everything in nature and in the end it all went back into the earth. See to the outsider it may look like one thing and to those who live there something else.

As with jokes, well they will always offend someone...I know what is funny to me and the way I interpret a joke may be entirely different than someone else...I think we just need to lighten up...take what is good for us and leave what is not.:) Blessings.

And as for the horses...My maternal line has been into horses for many years. My mother brought the first Tennessee Walkers to Montana (1940's?). My aunt raises horses and so does my sister...I just love them...there is such freedom on the back of a horse. I remember riding in the mountains of Montana and loving the smell of pine...I could assume my paternal line was also into horses, with a surname like Hackney...

Tom

05-01-2007, 01:05 PM

That's a great point, many people believe that all cowboys are white (and sometimes black) and all Indians are red (and sometimes white)!HAHA:D
Here is a link on Indian Cowboys that a friend did several years ago, so I can trust the content!
http://www.ecampus.com/book/0295977299
Legends of Our Times: Native Cowboy Life
Author(s): Baillargeon, Morgan; Tepper, Leslie
ISBN10: 0295977299

1_optimistic

05-01-2007, 03:05 PM

"Candidate #2: Vote for me. I am a black man..... but not TOO black. My ggrandma was a Cherokee princess. Does this podium make my skin look lighter? Wanna see me tapdance?"

Can anyone out there explain to me why some "full blooded" First Peoples/Native Americans/Indians have a problem with "mixed blooded" Native Americans? Does anyone out there have a legitimate reason why, excluding just being prejudiced?

People like that make it hard for people like me who try to "connect" with our "other" bloodlines.

Once again........Divide and Conquer.:(

Coharie Roy

05-01-2007, 04:57 PM

1 Optimistic,

I don't think it's prejudice at all. I think it's the fear that once the nose of the camel is allowed into the tent, it's only a matter of time before a whole herd of camels crowds the Arab right out of his own tent.

Anyhow, here's what a Tuscarora chief had to say to some of my distant kin... and the aggravating thing is that they/we probably DO have some Tuscarora blood.

__________________________________________________ _____________
HAUDENOSAUNEE
TUSCARORA NATION
2006 MT. HOPE ROAD- VIA: LEWISTON, NEW YORK 14092

October 10, 2001

Charles Braveboy
Robert Jacobs Chavis
780 Andrews Farm Road
Rowland, North Carolina 28383-8080

Dear Mr. Braveboy and Mr. Charles:

The Chiefs and Clan Mothers of the Tuscarora Nation, one of the Six
Nations of the Haudenosaunee, issue the following statement on the
Tuscarora East of the Mountains. The Tuscarora Nation does not and
will not provide any recognition of your organization as being
affiliated with the Tuscarora Nation. Over the last four decades we
have heard from various groups in North Carolina claiming to be of
Tuscarora blood.

Please be informed that the Council Fire of the Tuscarora Nation was
moved from North Carolina and rekindled in our present homeland in
the 18th Century. The Tuscarora Nation was given shelter under the
Great Law of Peace of the Haudenosaunee and we are bound by that law
in our relationship with the Seneca, Cayuga, Onondaga, Oneida and
Mohawk Nations.

In the past, the Tuscarora Nation investigated claims of those in
North Carolina and it was determined that the claim of Tuscarora
descent were not legitimate. In the 1970's the Tuscarora Nation
Council of Chiefs sent a delegation to investigate the claims of
individuals that they were Tuscarora. After meeting with the people,
considering their evidence and the historical record, it was
determined that their claims did not have any basis in fact. The
Tuscarora Nation Council of Chiefs, with the concurrence of the Clan
Mothers, determined that there could not be any people in North
Carolina who could have maintained the criteria for citizenship,
much less the culture, kinship, language and governance of the
Tuscarora Nation over the previous centuries.

Our investigation showed that previous Tuscarora Chiefs made several
journeys to North Carolina to collect all of those who wished to
remain with the circle of the nation. In 1766, a delegation of nine
northern Haudenosaunee leaders, including Skarure Chief Diagawekee,
arrived among the Skarure that had remained in North Carolina after
the main body of the nation migrated north. One hundred fifty-five
Skarure left with Chief Diagawekee, however, about one hundred
remained on the reservation in North Carolina. This is true of other
Tuscarora who may have settled in various places along the general
migration north.

Again, in 1803, Skarure Chief Sacarissa and Longboard visited North
Carolina to gather up the remaining Skarure and lead them north to
the Tuscarora Nation. At that time, it was stated that anyone who
remained behind would lose their Tuscarora citizenship and give up
any claim upon the Tuscarora Nation. By 1810, all that would be
considered citizens of the Tuscarora Nation emigrated north and were
received by the nation.

Further, the Tuscarora Nation determines citizenship through the
female lineage. It is not realistic to believe that people left by
the Tuscarora Nation many generations ago would have been able to
retain a Tuscarora identity due to being scattered and intermarried
with other cultures. Never in the past has one person who resides in
North Carolina been recognized or confirmed by our traditional
process of selecting a leader. People who use the titles of the
Tuscarora Chiefs or Clan Mothers without authorization of the
Tuscarora Nation Council of Chiefs violate our laws, the laws of the
Haudenosaunee and are committing fraud.

The Tuscarora Nations has asked that those claiming to be Tuscarora
cease and desist from trying to claim the name of our nation, the
name of our titleholders, or assume any rights to our land and
culture. These rightfully are a part of the national cultural
patrimony of the Tuscarora Nation of the Haudenosaunee. We insist
that you stop representing yourself as being Tuscarora, or as
Tuscarora Chiefs, Clan Mothers, or a Tuscarora organization. The
Tuscarora Nation does not recognize or sanction the Southern band of
Tuscarora, the Tuscarora Tribe of North Carolina or the Tuscarora
Nation of the Kau-ta-noh, or any other group claiming to be
Tuscarora.

Further, the Tuscarora Nation is on record as being opposed to
organized gambling and we would vigorously resist any attempts to
operate any gaming operations in our name. No one from the Tuscarora
Nation has been authorized to offer any business assistance for any
economic venture.
These people that operate without the sanction of the Tuscarora
Nation and do so at their own risk. No business can claim the
collective rights of the Tuscarora Nation nor seek sovereign
immunity without the consent of the nation.

We regret having to inform you of our position; however, we have to
protect the legitimate rights of our nation and people.

Oneh!
Chief Leo B. Henry, Clerk
Tuscarora Nation

cc:
Gale Norton
Secretary of the Interior
United States Department of the Interior
1849C Street, NW
Washington, DC, 20240

Neal A. McCaleb
Assistant Secretary-Indian Affairs
United States Department of the Interior
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC, 20240

Franklin Keel
Eastern Regional Director
Bureau of Indian Affairs
711 Stewarts Ferry Plce
Nashville, TN, 37214

Governor Mike Easley
Executive Mansion
700 North Blount Street
Raleigh, NC, 27610

Gregory A. Richardson
Executive Director
Native American Affairs
212 West Jones Street
Raleigh, NC, 27699

blackindiangirl

05-01-2007, 05:39 PM

Wow! How can a Native American true at heart do such a thing to another? Doesn't it go against all that we stand for and have been taught? I believed and still do that ndns are the one "race" of people who treated their own......no matter the tribal affiliation.....to actually show human kindness one to another!

I guess that goes to show there will always be a "black sheep" amongst us human families. That's sad.

1_optimistic

05-01-2007, 05:42 PM

I think it's the fear that once the nose of the camel is allowed into the tent, it's only a matter of time before a whole herd of camels crowds the Arab right out of his own tent.

Thank you for your comment; however, are some "full blooded" First People/Native Americans/Indians saying that "mixed bloods" are a different species?

How can anyone compare a camel to a "mixed blood?" I could see if your example was comparing Arab's from different clans/tribes. To me, your example is like comparing fruit to chicken. There's no comparison. Do you understand my point regarding your example?

I understand that I was not brought up the Native Way but "blood is thicker than water." I believe that my ancestors would be happy that I have the passion to seek after my roots.

Personally, I am not concerned about the politics anyway.

dovelady

05-01-2007, 08:16 PM

Coharie Roy

05-01-2007, 08:23 PM

1 Optimistic,

"... are some "full blooded" First People/Native Americans/Indians saying that "mixed bloods" are a different species?"

No. Obviously, all human beings belong to the same species.

"How can anyone compare a camel to a "mixed blood?"

I'm not comparing a mixed blood person with a camel. I was using a metaphor to illustrate how some (probably most) federally recognized Indians feel about us/you/me.

"I could see if your example was comparing Arab's from different clans/tribes."

Huh? Do you mean, for example; Once you let the nose of a Hashemite Arab into a Saudi's Arab's tent, it won't be long until the all the Hashemites crowd the Saudi Arab right out of his own tent. Hmmm. I suppose it could work but it's not nearly so visually arresting as the camel metaphor. Besides, someone would surely accuse me of stereotyping the facial features of semitic people (i.e.- Hashemite noses).

"To me, your example is like comparing fruit to chicken."

OK

"There's no comparison."

I know there's no comparison. It's not a comparison. It's a metaphor. (Or should I say, it's a MIXED metaphor. Hahaha. :-) Oh, am I a bundle of laughs or what!)

"Do you understand my point regarding your example?"

Not really. You read way too much into it. It's just a metaphor. (Maybe I should have used the "Slippery Slope" metaphor.)

Wachinika

05-01-2007, 10:21 PM

Coharie Roy,

Your posts here today quote many historical references. However, on this site we require "proof ". Where are the footnotes that could lead me to find these "historical occurrances"?

Why must you use metaphore? Why not straight forward facts and language, here and now, English? Why bring Arabs into a discussion on America Indian Heritage?...I request a straight forward answer without "metaphor".

Ed Yancey

05-01-2007, 11:14 PM

Since the subject of Arabs has come up I find it interesting. I like to know what I am buying and what motivates a plerson's business. If you go to the West Wind's site given on this thread as a link and click on about me or us and read the entire article posted there the authur of the shirts every one is so quick to buy seems to think the Arabs flying airplanes into the twin towers is just "whites killing whites." It appears He has shirts about that also. My interpretation of His article and the Spirit of this forum up until now does not see the two agreeing. I don't even know how we got onto this particular thread. I am offended by any statement that boast or brags off anyone killing anyone!!!!!!!I have been admonished because I simply stated an event that actually occured and accused of making a joke about it. I meant it as no joke and told it with no disrespect but I nevertheless apologized if it caused any offence. I have heard no such apology to anyone who has expressed concern and offense concerning the spirit expressed in some of these pieces of apparel. Wisdom demands predence and the end never justifies the means. In the spirit of Peace . ED

Wachinika

05-01-2007, 11:18 PM

Can anyone out there explain to me why some "full blooded" First Peoples/Native Americans/Indians have a problem with "mixed blooded" Native Americans? Does anyone out there have a legitimate reason why, excluding just being prejudiced?

People like that make it hard for people like me who try to "connect" with our "other" bloodlines.

Once again........Divide and Conquer.:(

1_optimistic,

I don’t know that this is legitimate, but I asked that exact question of a Native American Literature Professor while in her class. Her answer was:

(Paraphrased)

The Mixed bloods were often involved in conducting the fur trade between the Indians and colonists and as such were seen as contributing to the demise of the Indian Culture. The Indians that went to the reservations, suffered much and are the ones who held on to the traditional cultural beliefs and feel the mixed bloods on the other hand “sold-out” the culture. [I don’t know what necessarily qualifies her as an authority on this question…. but that was her answer.]

I saw her idea on this site in the term, “Tributary Indian”. I think, that we were aligned from the start with the colonists, acting as middleman in the trade, and the tribes that chose to not interact were our enemies even before the coming of the Europeans. Based on that you could say our plight today is “Inter-Tribal Rivalry” which is very alive among all the Siouan Tribes today. I almost thought it legitimizes us as a group that we are opposed in this way. If this were true, we could just be experiencing an age-old tribal rivalry and only need to legitimize ourselves and answer to only ourselves. Actually another answer is we are not racially “pure”. Of course most of them are not either and that makes them all the more “on the spot” in our presence.

I’m not sure prejudice is the exact word…but wanting to maintain their original racial purity probably is. Like maybe they don’t mind us as fellow human beings but just can’t identify with us as being like them????

I think I read somewhere on this site that there should be a designation for Mestee, Mixed Blood people.

As I see these two factions; here we stand …each has lost a significant part of ourselves. I think the rest of the story is yet to be written.

Actually, I don't think it is or ever was so much of a "formal" matter where one group decided to intermingle or not. Now as then it happens individual to individual. I think each bridge between cultures is built at individual interactions. Keep moving forward and you'll connect in a satisfying way with someone.

By the way, what does a Tuscararo have to do with a Saponi? :confused:

Coharie Roy

05-01-2007, 11:19 PM

sammarroq

05-01-2007, 11:49 PM

Wachinika,

My lack of attribution is duly noted. You may check the below to see my source.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NCTuscarora

Message # 601 posted by "lookat500" on July 27, 2005 at 11:49 p.m.

Why metaphor? Because metaphor often contains more truth than "the cold hard facts." Additionally, Indians have always been noted for their eloquent oratory and their use of tropes and figures. For example:

"There were no temples or shrines among us save those of
nature. Being a natural man, the Indian was intensely poetical.
He would deem it sacrilege to build a house for Him who may be met
face to face in the mysterious, shadowy aisles of the primeval
forest, or on the sunlit bosom of virgin prairies, upon dizzy
spires and pinnacles of naked rock, and yonder in the jeweled vault
of the night sky! He who enrobes Himself in filmy veils of cloud,
there on the rim of the visible world where our
Great-Grandfather Sun kindles his evening camp-fire, He who rides
upon the rigorous wind of the north, or breathes forth His spirit
upon aromatic southern airs, whose war-canoe is launched upon
majestic rivers and inland seas--He needs no lesser cathedral!"

From "THE SOUL OF THE INDIAN" by Charles Alexander Eastman.

and this:

"Tell General Howard I know his heart. What he told me before, I have it in my heart. I am tired of fighting. Our chiefs are killed; Looking Glass is dead, Too-hul-hul-sote is dead. The old men are all dead. It is the young men who say yes or no. He who led on the young men is dead. It is cold, and we have no blankets; the little children are freezing to death. My people, some of them, have run away to the hills, and have no blankets, no food. No one knows where they are—perhaps freezing to death. I want to have time to look for my children, and see how many of them I can find. Maybe I shall find them among the dead. Hear me, my chiefs! I am tired; my heart is sick and sad. From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever."

Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce, October 5, 1877.

Coharie Roy,

I have read Charles Eastman's works and really enjoyed them. Chief Joseph was one of the most eloquent speakers and a user of metaphor. Metaphor is used to communicate an idea by using objects/situations/circumstances familiar to the listener/reader. The use of metaphor was commonplace with Natives as they related all things to nature. I am posting a quote or two by Chief Joseph that impacted me. I will also list the source to share other quotes and history, blessings.:)

Quotes from Chief Joseph

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The earth is our mother. She should not be disturbed by hoe or plough. We want only to subsist on what she freely gives us. Our fathers gave us many laws, which they had learned from their fathers. These laws were good. I have carried a heavy load on my back ever since I was a boy. I realized then that we could not hold our own with the white men. We were like deer. They were like grizzly bears. We had small country. Their country was large. We were contented to let things remain as the Great Spirit Chief made them. They were not, and would change the rivers and mountains if they did not suit them.

Too many misinterpretations have been made... too many misunderstandings...

Wachinika

05-02-2007, 12:15 AM

Hi Caharie Roy,

…Just visited that Yahoo Link and I couldn’t find the option for post 601 available.

What do you think and feel about the decision they made to exclude the people?

I had never heard of Charles Alexander Eastman before... did a quick Google and got a brief rundown. I have read books by others educated in American normal schools then returning to south South Dakota. I’ll try to find his writings. Hope there’s something on Wounded knee since it said he was an attending physician to the surviving victims.

My limited knowledge of Indian thought and culture expressed through language comes from study of the Siouan languages Omaha and some Lakota. These were language "straight forward" language classes and we didn't assign English Literary terminology to what we studied...just used the language and read their stories in their own words. Then I 've had the opportunity of hearing both spoke by elders at public functions and they usually translated after. I know some differences in expression and thought but can’t find the nuances I’ve been made aware of in this quote. It seems a product of his Euro-American college education to me, which itself speaks to the greatness of the Indian mind to adapt to and florish in all environments.

The Chief Joseph quote is to me straight forward and very easy to understand and relate to.

Thank you for sharing this.

Wachinika

05-02-2007, 12:36 AM

[QUOTE=blackindiangirl] I believed and still do that ndns are the one "race" of people who treated their own......no matter the tribal affiliation.....to actually show human kindness one to another!QUOTE]

As idealistic as that sounds, it just isn't so. The fighting amongst the different Indian nations was one reason the white people were able to take over. If they could have put their differences aside they could have united and stopped the invasion before it began, or at least they could have slowed it down a bit.

Putting that aside, Indian tribes fought each other, took slaves and basically committed atrocities just like any other race. For the most part, they were a warring people. Almost every account of early Indian history mentions them fighting amongst themselves.

How accurate can history written by one culture discribing a foreign culture actually be? I hope my beliefs are not judged by the wars fought during my lifetime. One thing we can compare is how living breathing people of Indian nations relate to one another and compare that to modern American cultural values. Maybe we can even do a bit of choosing the direction of our personal path and attempt to influence our nation's future for the better.

sammarroq

05-02-2007, 12:36 AM

Hi Caharie Roy,

…Just visited that Yahoo Link and I couldn’t find the option for post 601 available.

What do you think and feel about the decision they made to exclude the people?

I had never heard of Charles Alexander Eastman before... did a quick Google and got a brief rundown. I have read books by others educated in American normal schools then returning to south South Dakota. I’ll try to find his writings. Hope there’s something on Wounded knee since it said he was an attending physician to the surviving victims.

My limited knowledge of Indian thought and culture expressed through language comes from study of the Siouan languages Omaha and some Lakota. These were language "straight forward language classes and we didn't assign English Literary terminology to what we studied...just used the language and read their stories in their own words. Then I 've had the opportunity of hearing both spoke by elders at public functions and they usually translated after. I know some differences in expression and thought but can’t find the nuances I’ve been made aware of in this quote. It seems a product of his Euro-American college education to me, which itself speaks to the greatness of the Indian mind to adapt to and florish in all environments.

The Chief Joseph quote is to me straight forward and very easy to understand and relate to.

Thank you for sharing this.

Hi Wachinika,

Here are the books by Charles Eastman: The Soul of the Indian (1911); he also has 2 autobiographical works, Indian Boyhood (1902), and From the Deep Woods to Civilization (1916). Eastman has also co-wrote 9 other books with his wife Elaine Goodale Eastman.

Blessings,
Shirley

Ed Yancey

05-02-2007, 12:38 AM

Wachinika, welcome to the world of the wan-na-knows and not the
wanabees. Your post #35 tells me you have arrived and welcome to the camp and tribe seeking our true heritage whereever that path may lead us. I will never be ashamed and I believe everyon one this forum would stand by that statement. Some of us will never Know with authority and if we did and held in our hands the absolute proof there would be those who would reject us. So be it ! We all belong to the Human race and again there are those who would even deny us this but God / Creator has determined otherwise. So tough luck no Providence because it has been determined So and there is nothing anyone can do about it. May we all seek the Path of Peace not only for our own good but for the good of any future we shall be blessed with. ED

Wachinika

05-02-2007, 12:51 AM

"May we all seek the Path of Peace not only for our own good but for the good of any future we shall be blessed with. ED"

Now there's something to contemplate...being future oriented as a group as well as seeking history.

If we build on the foudation we discover among the ruins, how will our posterity veiw us as a people? What will they say about our accomplishments; our wars?

1_optimistic

05-02-2007, 08:58 AM

The Indians that went to the reservations, suffered much and are the ones who held on to the traditional cultural beliefs and feel the mixed bloods on the other hand “sold-out” the culture.

Thanks for sharing your opinion Wachinika.

Thank you too Coharie Roy.

I just thought of Radmilla Cody (46th Miss Navajo Nation from 1997-98) and how she was raised in the Navajo "culture" but she still was given a hard time by some tribal members because of her "blended" ancestry. Sad :(

Wachinika

05-02-2007, 09:03 AM

Good Morning Ed,
As I graciously accepted your apology Monday evening in a private message, I also do so here.
From here where I live this morning I am thinking of you there where you live and hoping you and Rachel are blessed with the perfect spring weather we are having here...Dianne :)

Wachinika

05-02-2007, 09:43 AM

"The Indians that went to the reservations, suffered much and are the ones who held on to the traditional cultural beliefs and feel the mixed bloods on the other hand “sold-out” the culture."

Hi 1_optimistic, :) That is not my opinion. That is the paraphased answer I was given. We, here, know the history shows it to be much more complex than that. I told her then and live by it now..."Well then maybe mixed people can help to restore it." In social and political issues it adds momentum when we speak to politicians and elected officials letting them know that many Americans are expecting them to honor the requests of our Indian leaders. We need to know there are unique and differing aspects of those raised culturally Indian and respect they have and are protecting their ways. It has been my experience that Indian leaders welcome support for the causes they work on for their people.

Shirley, :) Thank you for the titles. I need to learn more of the Santee.

Coharie Roy

05-02-2007, 10:59 AM

Wachinika wrote:

"What do you think and feel about the decision they made to exclude the people?"

I don't like it ... even though I see their point of view. Mostly though, I've put it all behind me. I compare it and how I feel about it, to my own family history.

About 15 years ago, I found out that I have a half sister. (It's a long sordid story, filled with the usual indelicate matters of betrayal, illicit sexual liasons, and a decades long cover-up, all of which are inmaterial to my story.) Anyhow, when my three sisters and my brother and I found out, we were shocked, to say the least. My sisters immediately rallied around my mother and gave my half sister the cold shoulder. My brother remained neutral, or should I say non-comittal. I, on the other hand, thought it was pretty nifty to suddenly discover that I had another sister. The long and the short of it was that my family was cleaved by the sudden "arrival" of my half sister. Feelings were hot and emotions raw. But, as with all things, time passed. After about five years. There settled into our family a kind of truce. A kind of insincere cordiality. And that's the way it stands today. But here's the point. While we all acknowledge new sis, we really don't see her as part of our family. She didn't grow up with us. She didn't go to church with us. She didn't feel the sting of mother's belt on our behinds when we acted up. She didn't fidget in the back seat of our 1963 Mercury on those grueling 8 hour trips to North Carolina to see our relatives. She didn't worry with us at dad's bedside when he had heart by-pass surgery. How could she have. She wasn't there! And it's those shared experiences that create the bonds of love and affection... that create family. Like I said, I think it's nifty having a new sis, but, really, down deep, I don't see her as part of my family. She's dad's daughter. She's a friend, but she's essentially dad's daughter.

But it's really just metaphor for how the New York Tuscarora (and most other federally recognized tribes) sees me/you/us/the Lumbee, ad infinitum.

Wachinika

05-02-2007, 11:40 AM

Coharie Roy, Thank you for the gift of your personal story that we might benefit from what it teaches us. :)

This could be told as the teaching stories handed to Indian children by their Grandparents. It was pointed out in Contemporary Native American Literature class that the stories would leave off the line that sums up the lesson learned so that the child could think on it and wonder its' ending and meaning. Then thoughout life as one lives similar situations the story is remembered, related to, understood, and comforting.

I'm thinking like so many here say so often: One small group may deny us but we are still equally present and important in the whole larger picture of the American Indian story. We are strong and enduring. Thanks to the tireless work by the people here there is already so very much we have to give our children and grandchildren instead of the empty longing and unknowing that was ours. Love and graditude to all.

1_optimistic

05-02-2007, 01:22 PM

Hi 1_optimistic, That is not my opinion.

Okay, thanks Wachinika.

Tom

05-02-2007, 02:33 PM

Well I thought that this was about T shirts?
Well there's so much to respond to;
ED sorry if I have offended you , if I haven't that's a releif but if I have I do apologize!
Roy, I really like the metaphor story, but what else can you call a camel?
The Tuscarora issue, well it's thier right to cash in on a monopolized name if the choose to!
If I had a new sis that would be so COOL, even an old sis is pretty cool, but so far the ones I have are "flighty and airy" just not "ayrie".
"You can always tell who the indians are because they never really quite fighting, they just simmer and then boil over"!
AND I still like asparagus!

dovelady

05-02-2007, 02:42 PM

"You can always tell who the indians are because they never really quite fighting, they just simmer and then boil over"!
[/QUOTE]

The reason I don't drink alcohol: I'm Scot/Irish & Indian. 'nuff said. :)

Wachinika

05-02-2007, 06:15 PM

Well, I guess it turned out to be more about what the phase on the T-shirt provokes.

I had a Lakota elder tell me a story that not too long ago 2 crow men showed up at a Lakota’s door and said,
“Your Great-grandfather killed our Great Grandfather!”
He said,
“Indians don’t forget.”
I got the message.

Of all the posts here Rockhound’s is the one that has stuck with me.

"I think the T-shirts are funny, but I wouldn't wear them myself.

Sometimes you just have to laugh, ya know."

I decided that said it all. It was funny to me but I shouldn’t really wear one to events because no matter how seriously I take it when going through the greeting process, I’ve actually ended up being well received so I’d better just keep doing what I’ve been doing. I decided the one man is just grumpy.

blackindiangirl

05-04-2007, 09:12 PM

Boy! This sure was an interesting thread! LOL. I'd LOVE to wear the "I'm part white...." t-shirt to the mall. I'm a daredevil and an "in-your-face" type of person. I'd dress in all black with combat boots on and act like I'm packing. LOL!!!

Bill Childs

05-07-2007, 09:12 PM

LOL my kinda woman!

Tom

05-08-2007, 03:20 PM

we have them here too, not as many as there used to be.
They may have been over run by "wangers" or "rubbies" or "something!? ".
I am not sure or they may have been displaced by another sub-species more sinister; but still each year we await thier mysterious migration back (where they leave to in the fall still reamains a mystery).
Oh sorry it's those "side walk comando's " that I am refering to!

anitabingamon

05-08-2007, 11:04 PM

We saw these tee-shirts at the Paw-Paw Powwow at Springfield, Ohio last September, - and I am "lite." Dan and I got a big kick out of seeing them.

I gained weight in my early twenties and had a male "friend" who was mad I wouldn't date him, mainly because he told me I was old, fat and ugly. I went and bought me a tee-shirt that said "I may be fat, but you're ugly and I can go on a diet," and wore this to a picnic we were going to separately. He never called me old, fat and ugly again. And I never dated him.

But I can appreciate the humor of the tee-shirt, especially me being lite, and people asking if I am "Mixed." I don't know if I'd wear it, but then again, don't know that I wouldn't, either. It took me a long time to like my mixed self and to appreciate where I came from.

Anita B. aka Sparrow

Buffalowm

05-12-2007, 11:02 PM

Dreaminghawk

05-13-2007, 01:17 AM

Hey Jade, it was good to see you and Linda at Clarksville yesterday. You are absolutely right about the power of a united front. That is why Becky and I refuse to play the ndn politics game....... too many good people to try to pick and choose who will be our friends based on politics. We try to be an example of unity through our actions and interactions.
To all.... Jade can verify that I bought the "I'm part white but I can't prove it" teeshirt yesterday and I will wear it proudly. .... but that's just me ;-)

anitabingamon

05-13-2007, 11:20 AM

I didn't like the Cherokee Nation Politics (I can't think of the proper name of the group right now) excluding Blacks, because I believe some of the Freedmen to have some NA blood. If you are mixed, you are mixed, doesn't matter what color you are on the outside, as long as you are a Cherokee or other NA tribe descendant IMO. I have met Afro-American NAs where you KNEW they were also NA - and one or two where you couldn't see it so obviously - one was one quarter Apache and the other Cherokee.

I am disgusted - and sad - to see this partition made in our family of Cherokees.

Anita B. aka Sparrow

dovelady

05-13-2007, 02:13 PM

[QUOTE=... Why do we keep letting the government controll us over and over again. They do not have our best interest at heart.[/QUOTE]

Because, like it or not, Indians are still a 'captive people' and really don't have 'rights' as far as this gov't is concerned. They are supposed to be a self governing people, but in reality, the U.S. gov't has set it up so that they are like children who have to ask a parent's permission before they can do anything. So until the gov't really and truly allows Indian nations to be self-governing they will always have to 'get permission' or be dependant on gov't handouts.

Wachinika

05-14-2007, 06:24 PM

Hello my family/ scattered tribe/the people all together,

I started this thread in innocence.

I have been away; gardening, but also applying for disability, and having a Taurus with Aries rising Birthday and Mother’s Day. I come back and find all of these wonderful posts that make me proud to be of you, that reflect our individual and united pain and unite us to the larger Indian community (whether they claim us yet or not), with prayers, that all realize we are the link in the united force that will show the world American Indians are the elders and basis for most all of the good that America represents to the Universe. I want at this time to say to all of you; I love you. Thank you. I believe my family oral history and I am proud to be of you. We are a force to be rececked with! (Peaceably and respectfully, of course.) To God (Generic), Maona (Winnebago), Wakonda (Omaha), Wakon Tonka, (Lakota), Jehova, (my bible).:o , (yes, in comparison to all of the above.)

blackindiangirl

05-14-2007, 08:31 PM

You are so sweet Wachinika!

Wachinika

05-14-2007, 08:49 PM

blackindiangirl,

As they said at my small Hoosier elementary school:

"It takes one to know one.":)

sammarroq

05-14-2007, 09:16 PM

blackindiangirl,

As they said at my small Hoosier elementary school:

"It takes one to know one.":)

Diane,

I must agree with Roni, you have a sweet spirit and are a wonderful addition to Saponitown.:)

Shirley

Wachinika

05-14-2007, 09:53 PM

Thank you for your kind words. The credit of course goes to those I follow here. For those who require it, I will post my references at another time. For those here you will all know of which I speak when I say, it is said, our downfall as a tribe was due to our friendliness.

As time progresses, we will see who has the joy of reverent celebration.:)

spilleddi

05-16-2007, 03:02 AM

Many of the federally recognized and state recognized tribes do feel that those of us who were seperated from the original tribes are no longer a part of them or deny us because we would be a stumbling block in their getting any federal monies or reparations. That I feel is just another way the government has found a way to limit what we should have a right to as Native people. Why do we keep letting the government controll us over and over again. They do not have our best interest at heart. They are aware that there are many of us who will not be recognized and they want to limit our due. We have to come together and stop playing their game. United we would be a force to be reccond (? spelling) with and they would have to take notice and give us our due. The government likes it when we fight against each other the same as they did so many years ago. WE NEED TO UNITE !

Hmmmmm..... Looks like some fed tribes are looking down on state tribes, and some state tribes are looking down on unrecognized tribes, and some unrecognized tribes probably looking down on unaffilied native descent folks.

No wonder all us here at saponi town get along so good, we either refuse to look down on others, or were already at the bottom of the heap!

Oh, and I'd love to see a t-shirt with a picture of a Powhatan and a Jamestown settler on it with the caption "My people took my land!" I'd wear it!

Wachinika

05-16-2007, 12:42 PM

spilleddi,

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!!!! :D :D :D All so very true and accurate.

And I think I keep hearing it alluded to that some bottom of the heap people are completing the circle of put downs by looking down on nationally organized full blooded, traditional, card carrying, western tribal members and their supporters:rolleyes: .

Now they are all putting each other down, positioned in this broken circle formation:(; I pray soon the peace pipes will be offered and this circle reunited?:)

Thanks for bringing this thread back in a full circle to a funny T-shirt: "My people took my land!" I want one of those too!

I have people in James City by 1610 in my mother’s line, supposedly the daughter of the ship Captain Christopher Newport that brought the colonists. She’s another of those all too familiar stories of a courthouse burning, this time in Shrophire England… another of the white ones with a colorful story that can’t be proven.:)

spilleddi

05-17-2007, 12:45 AM

Ah, then perhaps we are cousins! I too have read somewhere in the piles of my family history that we are descended from Captain Newporte, its on my long list of stuff to research.

I should give credit to the phrase "my people took my land" to my grandmother. She has also told me to go visit Jamestown, because as she said it "thats were our people met our people!"

Wachinika

05-17-2007, 01:20 AM

sammarroq

05-17-2007, 09:00 AM

spilleddi and sammarog,
Well Shirley, I always thought at some point I should mention to you that I have Braggs on my Mom's side. I think you've said that is your stepfather's name. This is the time because it is said Thomas Bragg m. Molly Newport in James City in 1610. It does appear all proven of the Braggs. I don't know if there is a marriage record.
I know what you mean Spilleddi about the long list of stuff. Actually it's my Mom's tree that has more names and areas associated with Eastern Blackfoot but the story is from my Dad's so that's where I'm starting. I just can't grasp trying to deal with both trees simultaniously.:eek: That's alot of people all the way back to c.1580, the listed birth years of Thomas Bragg and Molly Newport. Since she can't be proven and she's not on a passenger list, maybe she was Indian (just kidding, I think).
Spilleddi, your grandmother sounds like alot of fun!

Wachinika,

I have not researched the Bragg name, but I think my aunt said someone in the family was, I can check with her when I visit. Bragg is a very common name in the Souith, when we were in WV a few years ago (before I met my aunts), I grabbed the local phonebook...phew...too many to search.
My maiden name is Bragg, however I found out about three years ago that Ellison Bragg was not my father's biological father (his father was a Sparks). It is a strange feeling to go through almost forty years thinking you are a Bragg...to find out it's not true. However, both of my aunts are Braggs. I have hit a brick wall on my Sparks grandfather; I find the family name in and around Richwood, WV, but not his first name (LLoyd), which I am beginning to think was a nickname for something else.

Shirley

Wachinika

05-17-2007, 10:43 AM

My mother's father's [b. Iroquois Co. IL near IN] grandmother was a Bragg b.TN. The tree I have has 10 Braggs back to James City through NC. I will post the names in Share Geneology soon.

malisa

06-19-2007, 07:41 PM

it's gettin to where alot of times...to save an arguement i tell folks i'm remainin nutral! i have my beleifs & my ways of both kinds (white/indian)

Rick Cassidy

06-25-2007, 08:23 AM

I thank each one of you for all that has been said . And i agree it is hard when your skin is light or your hair or eyes are a light brown and not black or dark brown. My hair and eyes are a medium brown my skin is also medium color of brown . But two of my brothers and one sister have the dark hair dark eyes and darker skin . But if we are all togeather all can see we are brothers and sisters . BTW It still hurts me when people start hollowing or playing the the discrimination card. When in my opion we were and still are the most discriminated against race there is. We were given this whole USA for our own by our Creator. Then greedy European's came and took it away and gave us a very small part or patch to live on saying it's all for the cause of making life better for every/one . It still hurt's to know that so many people can't see that the Native American's were and alway's will be us well the Indian. Why can't every/one just come full circle and live in peace like our Ancestor's tryed to do in the begining . If it was not for our ancestor's helping the first settler's they none would have survived . And that is all I have to say about this . And if I am wrong for feeling this way I am sorry. And if I offended any/one I also am sorry . But that is the way I feel .

As Always walking with the Spirit of the Wind
Rick Cassidy
AKA Wind-dancer