Elizabeth Thomas

[William E Rieffer]

I am not in the lineage here. That belongs to my wife and I am interested because of our children. I started on the tree a few years back but gave up rather quickly. This time I've got some help (my mother is the genealogist of the family).

The oral tradition was that my wifes grandmother was a native american forced to move from Tennessee to Oklahoma. Not an uncommon story. The hard parts were that she was Choctaw (possibly named Whitting) and Blackfoot. Not a likely mix. Much more likely is that she was a Cherokee and that he was one of the eastern natives that still held onto the Blackfoot name as it pertains to the site here. I'm rather glad I found the site as it has made the stories make a lot more sense.

To continue. Elizabeth was forced west. She then decided to leave Oklahoma and go back to Tennessee. While in Arkansas however she met and married a baptist minister named Franks 25 years her senior. They lived in several parts of the southern US.

Their youngest child was Charles, my wifes father. My wifes maiden name was Tine Marie Franks. My name is William E Rieffer. Our children are William Lee (Liam), Silvey Marie, and Declan Pratt...

This is a very preliminary message. I'm expecting some records shortly from a relative including full names and birthdates. Unfortunatly in scanning the messages I've not seen the name Thomas. If my hunch is correct the man was probably generally regarded as Cherokee as well with an oral tradition as a "Blackfoot"

I plan to post again when I can give a better picture of the relations.

Interestingly, I have a good friend only known through the internet (we write for the same website) named Carl Jarrell, a name that I did see among the messages.

Will

[Tom]

Hello William, so glad that yoo have found Saponi Town.
I hope that you will share what you can about your families history and that you learn as much from the site as we will from you , thank you and have a great summer, look forward to your next posting, Tom.

[William E Rieffer]

Thanks for the welcome. I have a lot clearer information today...

Mary Elizabeth “Lizzy” Thomas: The information as of this time 7-1-02 is that she was born of a full blooded native mother named Whited. The mother is reported to be half Choctaw and half eastern “Blackfoot” with that lineage pointing to the Carolina area. The Choctaw lineage is sketchy and Cherokee gets mentioned as well so its quite possible that the parents were basically a Cherokee pair with the father having a history to the Sissipaha or Saponi.

Her father was John Thomas. There are no other details about him at this time.

She was born on a homestead farm in/around 1898 in/around Pigeon Forge Tennessee near the South Carolina border.

She is reported to have traveled from Tennessee to Oklahoma via Houston Mississippi where she met James “Jim” Carrol (sp) Franks. Later they married possibly in Arkansas.

Jim’s Father was named John L and the lineage is to Alabama. Jim also is reported to have had two brothers John and Charles.

Lizzy had seven children all with Jim. They were…
William Millard
Melvin
Gertrude
Pauline
Ruby
Hazel

And our direct relative, Tina Marie’s father Ruben Charles, who was born April 30, 1936 in Etawah Arkansas.

There were also three half brothers to these children who were fathered by Jim prior to his marriage to Lizzy. They were…

Lonzo
Hubert
Dayton

Now I'm off to look around again for Whited or Whitted.

Will

[vance hawkins]

hay, her ancestors did what mine did, but mine remained in Indian Territory. We also have a story of Cherokee (Brown, Guess/t, Looney -- all those surnames) mixing with "Blackfoot" -- Richey, Wayland, Wood/s, Dickson -- one or more of those surnames.

We discovered recently my g-g-grandpa was near Hot Springs, Ark, in 1830s, and was named Martin Guest. There is a Martin Guess on the Choctaw rolls who might be his grandson. But he was Cherokee, not Choctaw. People did get separated from their "own" and hooked up with who ever they could sometimes. Members of the Five Civilized Tribes sometimes went to Eastern Schools and returned to what was called "the frontier". So you might find a Mississippi Choctow living way back east. My Cherokee ancestors lived in the Chickasaw Nation.

vance hawkins

[mrspatino]

You are starting to hear this more and more. Same stories in my family but it is just so vague. I heard Cherokee and Blackfoot also.

[ConnieVentersLewis]

IN REFERENCE TO WHITTED OR WHITED SURNAME HI WILL, GENEALOGY.COM HAS A WHITTED MESSAGE BOARD.

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Connie

[itconani]

interesting to hear a "forced" removal from 1900 to OK from tenn.
Why do you believe it was forced? and if so why not just head south 45 miles to Cherokee from pigeon forge?

what documentation do you have on the choctaw and or blackfoot ID? is it written somwhere? or orally passed? have you looked on beyond east tenn cou nties, if not, try neighboring counties in nc and va for thomas sir name.
there are thomas' on the eastern cherokee rolls at different dates in the mid to late 1800s

[Tom]

Hello , for more information on forced removals or what they refered to as persauded removals look into Louisianas history of The Choctaws and the Atakaps, sad to say but removals were still happening up until the 1930's! Tom

[screaming eagle]

absolutely!reliable sources remember cherokees,and blackfoot,being removed by night from the osarks in missouri and dumped in oklahoma well into the mid 1950's!!!

[-cr21-]

My family moved west of the Mississippi from NC and TN around 1840. Not sure why, but it Im sure its not good. No one in my family will tell me why they moved or if they were moved. All I know is being indian is a touchy subject for some and pride at the same time, if that makes sense. My grandpa was the only indian in his class and made my grandmother give my dad up for adoption because he thought he looked to white to be his son. Strange story but just putting in my 2 cents.
Chad

[vance]

hmmm . . .

i didn't realize the word "forced" removal was used. I'm skeptical -- can yall provide documentation? My ancestors were in "Chickasaw Nation" and "Choctaw Nation" from 1870s & some still live here in what is Oklahoma today, including me.

The only forced removal was in 1820s & 1830s for the 5 tribes called "Civilized" triibes. I was born in the 1950s in Oklahoma and I heard a lot, but I never heard of a "forced" removal as late as the 1950s.

If you know of such things, can you provide dates, news articles, publications, et cetera? thanks!

vance hawkins

[Tom]

Hello All, Vance you should contact the BIA and see what they have to say about these events, Iam sure that in most cases they will say " well We don't know anything about that"!
Who is going to admit to forcing people out of bed in the middle of the night at gun point!?
No Kidding the last remaining members on some tribal land remain there only because they were away when the white hoods rode in!
All the best Tom.

[screaming eagle]

well they didnt have video camera's in those days,probabaly still don't have many in the osarks.i got my info from my cheif who's family this happened to,70%ofthe tribe is over 55 many remember.but believe as you will maybe the holocaust never happened right?

[vance hawkins]

whew . . .

Well friend, video cameras are not required -- just records, land deeds, et cetera if folks were forced off their lands those records exist. Ask your Chief for those records.

Many people have asked for and received such records -- Angie Debo made a career about exposing the trashy way American Indians here in Oklahoma were treated, and I know and believe the American Holocaust DID happen & my family history is a record of it -- and we have those records -- through dilligent hard work, it is like havin teeth pulled findin those records, and we don't have any money so it's takin a long time -- many years in fact.

I don't remember Angie Debo talkin about anything happenin in the 1950s, and that late I am sure records would have been kept. The way I have learned the TRUTH about my family is to check everything -- all the "rumors" with FACTS I could document, and I have documentation back to the late 18th century. That's the type of documentation I'm askin about. I heard a lotta rumors, some of it was con men who'd tell me "we have records" your ancestors were descended from Pocahantas! I had some folks on the internet tell me that!!! But I then asked them for a personal copy of that proof and they shut up. So I gotta assume they were liars. I want my "real" family history, not a close fascimile. I doubt people were evected in the 1950s, friend. Plenty of land foreclusures have happened, folks evected because they quit makin payments. Both my grandparents lost farms in the 1930s "Dust Bowl" here in Oklahoma and were homeless for a while wonderin' around. That was cause they had no money, not because of their race.

If you are mixed Black/Indian I can believe you -- the KKK could have been that terrible and records in the Deep South might be erased because some of those folks were pure evil from what I've read, and seen DOCUMENTED (key word "documented").

My ancestors too lived in the Ozarks, surnames Brown, Looney, Guess, Richey, Wood, Dickson & others. I have a talent for makin the enrolled and the unenrolled mad at me. We are not enrolled or enrollable, so when I talk to the enrolled I emntion all the unenrolled and they can get upset. Then I go to the unenrolled and ask folks to show documentation and get folks in a huff too -- I can't win! http://winwinworld.net/SaponiForum/UBB/frown.gif

I am on your side, but we need documented facts to prove how our ancestors've been treated. Don't get all in a huff over what I said, instead get to work! Documentation exists. Go to the County Clerk and look up the names, dates, and property locations. County officials will help you. Find it!

vance

[Tom]

Hello All any one interested in tracking my great grandmothers story of a broken leg to sign away her land in Indiana and sent on a train to California to later die of complications due to gangrene in her leg just let me know,ever hear of "claim busing?".
Tom

[Linda]

Was that the lady who's picture you sent? Are you saying somebody busted her legs to get her to sign over her land, then dumped her on a bus? What year was that?

Indiana was nasty with the clan in the 30's. Is that when this happened?

[CoheeLady]

To: William Rieffer & itconani,
Regarding the Thomas surname, I have one ancestor named Thomas Thomas. That's not a error, his first name was the same as his last. He was from Virginia. Another thing I noticed the Whited name, it reminded me of the Whitehead family of Virginia. Maybe a short version of the same name? Just a thought. My family surnames are below:

CASH
SKINNER, ELIZABETH
GARRETT
WALKER, RUTH HOWARD
GOINGS (do to this female being one of several marriages to the same man, can't prove that she is my ancestor yet.)
TURNER
THOMAS
ARTHUR
NORTH
AGEE
BOUNDURANT
FORD
PATTERSON
CHASTAIN
NOW FOR A FEW FAMILY SURNAMES CONNECTED, BUT NOT MY DIRECT LINE:
BROWN
MASSEY
OHMAHUNDRA (SPELLING MAY BE WRONG)
WRIGHT
PHELPS (MAYBE DIRECT ANCESTOR)
FEATHERSTONE
HIGGINBOTHAM
------------------------------------------
The reason I put the indirect relatives, is simply because these families lived side by side, & they are family none the less. Hope this helps. I wish I had more info on the Thomas family but I don't.
Sincerely,
CoheeLady

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

I have one Thomas in my line. Here is the information and of course they lived in west Virginia. THOMAS JONES and LAVINAH THOMAS

WILLIAM3 WILLIAMS (HUGH2, JEREMIAH1) was born 1794 in Greenbrier Co. Va.., and died 1869 in Nicholas Co. WV. He married (1) REBECCA HEATERS. He married (2) ELIZABETH JONES 1818 in Kanawha Co. WV, daughter of THOMAS JONES and LAVINAH THOMAS. She was born 1796 in Greenbrier Co. WV, and died 1882 in Nicholas Co. WV.

Children of WILLIAM WILLIAMS and ELIZABETH JONES are: i. ROBERT4 WILLIAMS, b. 1818, Nicholas Co. WV; m. MIRIAM NEAL, 1839; b. 1820. ii. SENNETT WILLIAMS, b. 1820, Nicholas Co. WV; m. NELLIE NUTTER, 1841; b. 1823, Nicholas Co. WVa.; d. 1869. iii. HARRIETT WILLIAMS, b. 1822, Nicholas Co. WV; m. GEORGE N. GRAY; b. 1821, Nicholas Co. WVa.. iv. REBECCA WILLIAMS, b. 1825, Nicholas Co. WV; d. 1857, Nicholas Co. WVa.; m. DAVID S. NUTTER; b. 1825. 2. v. JOHN JONES WILLIAMS, b. 1826, Nicholas Co. WVa.; d. Bef. 1880, Nicholas Co. WVa.. vi. ALEXANDER WILLIAMS, b. 1829, Nicholas Co. WV; d. 1891, Nicholas Co. WVa.; m. ALMERINDA O'DELL; b. 1833, Nicholas Co. WV. vii. WILLIAM T. WILLIAMS, b. 1832, Nicholas Co. WV; m. MARY SIZEMORE; b. 1838. viii. SAMUEL F. WILLIAMS, b. 1833, Nicholas Co. WV; m. ELIZABETH MARY BAILES, 1856; b. 1839. ix. SHELTON PARKER WILLIAMS, b. 1834, Nicholas Co. WV; m. (1) MARY JEFFERS; m. (2) SUSAN DUNBAR; m. (3) MARY O'DELL; m. (4) CATHERINE BARRETT.




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Life is a Rainbow made up of Many Different Colors.....

[Tom]

Hello Linda, yes the lady in the photo that I had sent is the lady that Iam refering to. The year was 1946.
You are very correct with the clan issue in Indiana , during the 1930 they announced that they were the Law this was over the radio.
I can tell you that one I will go back to her land and do a search since we do know who the leg and claim busters are.
They forced her into signing papers of transfer to them , she didn't want to and then they beat her, put her on a train to her daughters in California where she died.
Sorry to bring this up I know I said thet talking about how our ancestors were mistreated didn't do them justice but I was wrong, silencing the victims is not justice!
Best to all Tom

[Linda]

That is horrific. I hope you do dig all that up and find lots of evidence to substantiate the story and there's a big ugly stink in their backyard.

[Tom]

Hello Linda, yes Iam sure one day that there will be a big ugly stink in thier back yard since Gramma's front yard was a coal mine and her back yard an oil field! NO Kidding.
This is a true fact! Mom's Uncle, this ladies son was on her farm not long before it happened.
Thank you and best to All, Tom

[Linda]

Do you know any more of the story? Did anybody first offer her any money for her land? Or did they just go straight for the baseball bats to go break an old lady's legs? I bet they're still stuck in that back yard, wondering, what am I doing here? Why can't I leave?

[Tom]

Hello linda, well I don't know if the "Boy's" are still there, I have heard of one still near there.
One elderly lady that I called remembered Grama and her suddenly leaving, I know that I'll have to be very careful when I go there,it's all oil fields now. Well time will tell all, what is done in the dark is known by day!
Tom

[Linda]

Do you have a sense that this was done by a few thugs, an organized group, or some corporate thieves? I take it nothing was said to your gr-grandma that her land was suddenly worth a fortune, just some goons busting in, busting her legs and forcing her to sign some papers? All the while figuring nobody will care because she's not quite white enough for a scandal? Saw that she got some rudimentary, inadequate medical care and then shipped her out of state? Is that the gist of it?

[vance hawkins]

When I mentioned Angie Debo earlier on this thread, she documented many, many cases in the 1910s & 1920s of unscrupulous White men goin into Eastern Oklahoma and either declaring Indians "incompetent" (some judges were "on the take" and if Indians couldn't answer some basic questions right, the judge declared them to be incompetent. Perhaps they didn't answer the questions right because they didn't speak English, & that was never brought up in court), or outright killing them, and having themselves declared "guardian" of any children, then taking the land for themselves -- many oilmen got their wealth that way. Do a search for "Angie Debo" -- very famous lady, here in Oklahoma. Some of these folks went as far as marrying an Indian girl then she & her family & or/and heirs suddenly dissapeared . . . This is well documented, and she (Angie Debo) earned her Ph.D. scandalizing a loooot of names of oil barons here, some names of which you might recognize on logos at the gas pumps. For details, get and read her books. They'd be at any Universite library, and they are in other larger libraries I'd imagine, or you can get them "on loan" from smaller libraries.

But don't take my word for it -- You ought to research her work yourselves if you are interested.

vance hawkins

[Linda]

To mention a pretty pedestrain source for what you're talking about, there's the old Jimmy Stewart movie about an FBI man. One of his stints was in Oklahoma and there was a scenario in which a white man had forced his nephew into marrying an Indian girl, then next thing you know her parents' house blows up, with them in it, a few more relatives turn up murdered, and a will surfaces giving the nephew control of the land. If this movie plot is accurate, the FBI was able to prove that the will was fraudulent, authored by the white uncle.

I think Tom's story's a little unique though, being set in Indiana in 1946.


[This message has been edited by Linda (edited 08-05-2002).]

[Tom]

Hello well it was her 2 step sons that did the leg busting, her husband was obviosly in on it and who knows whoelse.
Gramma passed on in 46 so she may have been shipped out earlier, my cousin said that she just showed up one day and stayed until Auntie made her go to the hospital where she stayed for 6 weeks or so before she passed away.
I have heard of Angie Debo and have seen a book or 2 she did but will track them down once again, Thank you all, Tom

[TuckahoePrincess]

Here's an interesting tidbit from my mom's side of the family (the one with documented NA ancestry): my great-grandfather was a member of the klan back in the day.... the funny thing was is that he was part-Native American and part German-Jewish. Isn't that just slightly ironic?

One of my only memories of him (as he died when I was 10, and I had very little contact with him as we lived in Iowa for much of my earlier life) was of him getting a washcloth and trying to scrub the skin on my face until it was nearly raw, because he said I was dirty... when really I was just very dark. Of course, before he could do any real damage, my g-grandma would swat him with a fly swatter. Its funny, the things you remember.

[Linda]

Thanks for that info, Vance. That would be good to look into. These stories, and the one about Carrie Buck, give me a sense of why in my own family there was such an urgency about getting educated and worldly, there was a sense that the wolves were at the door, it wasn't social climbing out of greed or ambition, it was desparation.

[clen99]

I just wanted to add to the thread that there was a "mental" hospital in existence for about 30 years in Canton, South Dakota in which "incompetent," crazy, beligirent, non-cooperative Indians were sent. Most if not all who were sent there died there that I can recall.

Canton Hospital was open from approximately 1900-1930 at which time a physician came out from Washington after several complaints about the treatment of the "patients" there. The conditions were appalling--people were left naked or part naked and dirty, they were emotionally, physically and sexually abused. The food was often wormy, rotten inedible leftovers from other places. Virtually all of the women who had children on the premises died as did their infants.

The physician from Washington immediately fired the head of the hospital and over some months everyone who was still alive was transferred to facilities back east.

The people committed to this place were Indians from all over the country. The property was taken over by the town of Canton and turned into a golf course. The caretaker there, however, is somewhat considerate of the events and helps protect the small graveyard in the middle of the course.

I have been to this graveyard several times; most of the names listed on the plaque are in whatever language the person spoke, some are French-origin surnames and some are Anglo. One or two are listed by one name only.

If anyone is interested in the full story and the list of names, let me know and I can get all of that information for you.

Lee

[sammarroq]

I have one Thomas in my line. Here is the information and of course they lived in west Virginia. THOMAS JONES and LAVINAH THOMAS

WILLIAM3 WILLIAMS (HUGH2, JEREMIAH1) was born 1794 in Greenbrier Co. Va.., and died 1869 in Nicholas Co. WV. He married (1) REBECCA HEATERS. He married (2) ELIZABETH JONES 1818 in Kanawha Co. WV, daughter of THOMAS JONES and LAVINAH THOMAS. She was born 1796 in Greenbrier Co. WV, and died 1882 in Nicholas Co. WV.

Children of WILLIAM WILLIAMS and ELIZABETH JONES are: i. ROBERT4 WILLIAMS, b. 1818, Nicholas Co. WV; m. MIRIAM NEAL, 1839; b. 1820. ii. SENNETT WILLIAMS, b. 1820, Nicholas Co. WV; m. NELLIE NUTTER, 1841; b. 1823, Nicholas Co. WVa.; d. 1869. iii. HARRIETT WILLIAMS, b. 1822, Nicholas Co. WV; m. GEORGE N. GRAY; b. 1821, Nicholas Co. WVa.. iv. REBECCA WILLIAMS, b. 1825, Nicholas Co. WV; d. 1857, Nicholas Co. WVa.; m. DAVID S. NUTTER; b. 1825. 2. v. JOHN JONES WILLIAMS, b. 1826, Nicholas Co. WVa.; d. Bef. 1880, Nicholas Co. WVa.. vi. ALEXANDER WILLIAMS, b. 1829, Nicholas Co. WV; d. 1891, Nicholas Co. WVa.; m. ALMERINDA O'DELL; b. 1833, Nicholas Co. WV. vii. WILLIAM T. WILLIAMS, b. 1832, Nicholas Co. WV; m. MARY SIZEMORE; b. 1838. viii. SAMUEL F. WILLIAMS, b. 1833, Nicholas Co. WV; m. ELIZABETH MARY BAILES, 1856; b. 1839. ix. SHELTON PARKER WILLIAMS, b. 1834, Nicholas Co. WV; m. (1) MARY JEFFERS; m. (2) SUSAN DUNBAR; m. (3) MARY O'DELL; m. (4) CATHERINE BARRETT.




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Life is a Rainbow made up of Many Different Colors.....

Just digging around for Sizemore info and came across one of Brenda's posts:)