Saponi....clothing in the 1800's.

[Jeff Beard]

At one time I did have a photograph of one of my Saponi Indian ancestors that was taken probably between 1850-1900.
The woman was I believe to be my great great grandmother and she was definetly Native looking, she had a kerchief tied around her head like many Cherokee Women wore at that time, given that she was a Elder at the time of the photo her hair was very dark, or at least the hair that was not covered by the kerchief, she wore a long sleeve blouse, and skirt that came down to her ankles, and shoes that were probably the style that was common at that time.
Sitting next to her was I believe her husband who was a tall lanky whiteman who was very Scotch-Irish looking. They were sitting on the porch of a Cabin, the woman in appearance looked at least to be from one half to full blooded Indian...
Are their others on the list who can give clues as to what our Saponi ancestors dressed like in the 1800's. Jeff Beard

[Bill Childs]

In the 1800s, pretty much the same as their neighbors wore.

[Tom]

Hey jeff; Bill is probably right about the Saponi people dressing like the rest of the population in the 1800's., that may even apply to the late 1700's.
But.. at what point did the dress change?, we are not sure, but because dressing in Euro. style clothing was probably fast becoming a status issue, just like todays latest fashion trends we are not sure what they may have identified as traditional clothing.
Much of the tribal culture appears to been kept under the carpet pretty early, however traditions may have been kept alive in areas such as foods medicines, etc things that made daily abstracts into geometerics, as it were.
If you look at the Sara Town woman, and do a seacrh from the NC archaeology archives data bases, things changed pretty quickly.
But... Iam sure that in many of the back areas out of Euro views, people probably tanned hides for foot wear and heavy clothing, maybe tailored like Euro clothes but with aboriginal materials, other items that appear to have been used later were traditional baskets, hunting methods and certainly clearing fields with fires.
Lastly there is the issue of tattoos that has been discussed here a good bit, I maintain that they may have been used up until the mid 1800's, some of these tribal designs may have found thier way into beadwork and embroidery, especially on womens clothing etc.
If you look at the thread titled "Tom's Family" you'll see some of the items mentioned here.
Thanx for the asking! I hope this helps.

[Red Metis]

My mother described the women in my father's family--grandmother, aunts, great-aunts, and cousins--as wearing a different type of dress than anyone else. They wore long dresses with white aprons (a pinafore type style??) covering them at all times. The dresses and aprons were ruffled at the bottom and the dresses had embroidery on them. They kept their waist-length hair braided and covered with a kerchief most of the time. If they weren't wearing the kerchief, then their hair would be pulled in a ball to the back of the head and secured with a comb. This was around the 1940s, 1950s.

Now my father's grandmother were Choctaw (Grandpa also referred to himself as Choctaw). His grandfather's side was Saponi.

This sounds similar to your ggrandmother's dress, Jeff, but at a much later dress. I wonder why they clung to this type of dress for so long?

[Tom]

The Mississippi Chocatws have retained a type of dress that is uniquely thiers, altho' there are several other Choctaw groups in the south or near south,the MS people seem to have been a large enough group to keep a status quo.
I would guess that there are other people in small enclaves across the south that have gone on undocumented, that have retained similar clothing styles or unique traditions in thier communities, but with out a detailed study of this by community members we might never know this.
I you folks have pic's of these traditions being carried on into the 1940's-50's please post what you might have.
I have friends in Ga, that have several pieces of clothing that at first glance would look very Euro. but the deigns and appliques are not at all what the larger societies would have been using at the same time.
I can't help but wish that some where some one will have knowledge of traditional eastern siouan clothing etc., for sure we do know that atleast several families on this web site have had older generations wearing center seam mocccasins, so my question is why not other types of clothing like what my great Grandmothers generation did.?

[Red Metis]

The Mississippi Chocatws have retained a type of dress that is uniquely thiers, altho' there are several other Choctaw groups in the south or near south,the MS people seem to have been a large enough group to keep a status quo.
I would guess that there are other people in small enclaves across the south that have gone on undocumented, that have retained similar clothing styles or unique traditions in thier communities, but with out a detailed study of this by community members we might never know this.
I you folks have pic's of these traditions being carried on into the 1940's-50's please post what you might have.
I have friends in Ga, that have several pieces of clothing that at first glance would look very Euro. but the deigns and appliques are not at all what the larger societies would have been using at the same time.
I can't help but wish that some where some one will have knowledge of traditional eastern siouan clothing etc., for sure we do know that atleast several families on this web site have had older generations wearing center seam mocccasins, so my question is why not other types of clothing like what my great Grandmothers generation did.?
You are right about never knowing. My Mom would have never told me this if I had not asked about Grandpa's family. She grew up in the same neighborhood and told me quite a bit after I asked.

I WISH I could find some pictures!!! The best thing I have is the detailed description that my Mom told me. :( This type of clothing was very out of place at that time and I would have loved to have pictures or better yet, some of the clothes themselves.

A local hospital had a painting on the first floor in the lobby of my great-grandfather (my Mom told me about this, too b/c my grandfather took her there and showed it to her). She said he was seated on a horse and "dressed up like an Indian". What was wearing exactly??? My Mom can't remember what he had on.

It's not there anymore and I've tried without success to find it. J-ville isn't the best city to dig up records. I'd love to see what style of clothing he was wearing.
I'll check the city's (inadequate) photo collection and newspaper indexes and see if anything will pop up.

Both my grandparents wore moccasins but only indoors. My grandmother made both pairs. Plain not decorated.

I have no way to find any of these articles, pictures, etc. from my family. My Dad and grandfather were estranged and as you see, much of this information came from my mother. If she wouldn't have grown up in the same neighborhood then I'd know even less. I hate this feeling of being cut off my family's history.

Drae

[Rachel McCraw]

I have no way to find any of these articles, pictures, etc. from my family. My Dad and grandfather were estranged and as you see, much of this information came from my mother. If she wouldn't have grown up in the same neighborhood then I'd know even less. I hate this feeling of being cut off my family's history.

Sorry for the late reply, but I just wanted to let you know that I can certainly sympathize. My paternal grandfather's family is not exactly the most harmonious bunch on earth--to the point of at least one surname change--and there have been several similar splits that I know of. For that matter, one aunt is not speaking to me now, and nobody else knows why! It's frustrating. I just try to pick up what I can; it's all a person can do, really.

Good luck!

[ahwikatani]

Does anybody have any record of what the saponi wore pre-contact time?

[beeleaf]

Does anybody have any record of what the saponi wore pre-contact time?

'Siyo Ahwi,

There is a thread on here somewhere about that, which refers to a book called, "Encyclopedia of American Indian Costume". Lotta people won't like the title, but it is one of few books that include Eastern Siouan.

I have it here, so will give brief overview:

Men wore soft deerskin breechclout...not tanned, but rubbed between hands with really long fingernails. May have worn leggings for travel.

Women wore a wraparound skirt made of cloth made from Spanish moss, mulberry bark (inner), or softened basswood bark. They also wore a shawl, fastened on one shoulder, leaving the right arm uncovered. This book says that the wealthier people wore deerskin. (woulda thought the best hunters would have had the deerskin, but perhaps it was traded?)

They went barefoot, but sometimes wore swamp mocs.

No headgear.

Finger woven girdles made from possum hair. Added to this and woven bark garments were fringes dyed red with puccoon root.

Matchcoats or mantles made of fur or feathers, and sometimes deerskin.

Copper jewelry, beads, loops. (It is said the Tuscarora went west to trade for copper and bring it back.)

They favored body painting over tatoos.


They were quick to adopt tradecloth, esp. blue and red strouding, which replaced materials used for breechclouts and skirts. Then the fellas changed to pants, shirts and coats, while the ladies started wearing long full cotton dresses.

[ahwikatani]

Thank you, I did find the thread,and it was very helpful. I was also wondering, is there any info on the Saponi wearing turquois(I know the Cherokee were big on it).Also as far as culture,ceremonies or religious practices,where the Saponi were a Siouxan speaking tribe,was a lot of there culture the same as the Sioux?

[beeleaf]

I was also wondering, is there any info on the Saponi wearing turquois(I know the Cherokee were big on it).


My understanding is that turquoise was not something the southeastern tribes would have been wearing much of. Would have to disagree about the Cherokee being big on it...at least, that is not what I've been taught. May have traded for it, though.

[techteach]

I can tell you that the Sioux do not wear turquoise either. I am wearing a pair of earrings I bought in Pine Ridge right now. They reflect the Sioux colors I have seen: Red, blue, black, orange, white.

Techteach

[ahwikatani]

Thanks again for the info Beeleaf, I am still learning,so all info is important and helpful to me. And thank you also Techteach for your input on this,I do know blue and white are big colors for the Sioux. I want to learn as much as I can about the Saponi culture and their way of life,and all of this info is very helpful to me.Along this note,is there a book with a lot of info on the Saponi tribe available? Does the Saponi tribe practice the same religious culture as the Sioux?

[beeleaf]

I am still learning,so all info is important and helpful to me.


Ain't we all. ;~)


Hmm...am thinking that answering your last question would require that a person be taught all Siouan cultures. If you were to find such a person, it is a topic better discussed one on one, rather than in a forum.

[Linda]

There is no one book. There are some good articles in the Bureau of American Ethnology series, and some other historic/ anthopological series. A good university library should have that. You just have to do the usual hunting through the univerisity's indexes of their holdings and pour through it all. I had ambitions of compiling it all, but I haven't. Richard Haithcock compilations have a lot of good stuff.

As for religion . . . we really don't know. There are a number of theories on just how great the time-separation is between the western Sioux and the Siouan tribes of the East and Midwest. I now believe it's a good deal less than a millenia, which to me implies a good deal of cultural/religious similarities. A huge conversion movement could of course wipe that out in a few generations. I take inspiration from what I learn of the exisitng Western Sioux thoughts and beliefs and am grateful that so much survives.

There was some record made of VA/NC Siouan reliigious beliefs, the most notable of which was what Ned Bearskin told the people he was guiding through the countryside. I'm a bit skeptical because part of it sounds to me like something he was regaling them with while passing around a jug or two. He could have been pulling their leg. And it all was after the conversion period at Ft Christanna, so it could have been heavily influenced by Christianity. So . . . like I said, we really don't "know" much in a provable, documentable way.

[spilleddi]

I would also look at the culture and beliefs of the next door neighbors of the eastern Siouan tribes for clues. Especially since the western Siouans underwent a drastic cultural change after they obtained the horse and moved out onto the great plains. Related language doesn't mean related culture or even common descent, but cultural features from neighboring tribes have a tendency to rub off on one another through intermarriage and trade, regardless of language.

A good example are the Cayuse of Oregon. They spoke a unique language, but were already replacing it with Nez Perce through intermarriage when the first settlers arrived, and they adopted Nez Perce culture and beliefs. The Apaches and British Columbia Athabaskans are believed to have separated about 1000 years ago, and have a vastly different culture today, but a related language. And there are neighboring tribes in northern California who speak completely different languages, yet have a very similar culture and belief system.

Also consider studying more closely related Siouan tribes, such as the Biloxi. There are Biloxi stories and other cultural information that exist. But I would still study the western Siouans, since there culture appears to be the most intact of the Siouan tribes and little is known about the eastern Siouan's immediate neighbors.

[ahwikatani]

Thank you Linda and spilledi. What you both have said makes a lot of sense,and it gives me a good starting point to go from. I plan on looking into both of these points and seeing what info I can gather. Like you Linda,I too plan on compilating all the info together. I would love to get all the info on my Saponi background together and write it up,everything from their dress,to their foods,their culture,religion,etc. Also as spilledi said, I will see if there is anything from the other Eastern Sioux tribes that may relate to this. Once again, thank you both for your input! -Gary

[Tahwey]

This old map http://usgwarchives.org/maps/virginia/statemap/1624map.jpg has an image of how the Natives might have appeared to John Smith.

[Linda]

Check out this link, Tahwey. John White is the artist who drew the figures used on that map.

http://www.virtualjamestown.org/images/white_debry_html/jamestown.html

[Tahwey]

Linda, I have really enjoyed looking at those watercolors and engravings, but the descriptions are like being there. The two together are like a virtual insite into their lives. Really cool, Thanks for the link.

[DHarden]

You want to see how the women dressed? Take a look at my avatar. This is my ggg grandmother and she is wearing a dress that she made herself. She was born in 1848 and I was told by a photographer that this picture was taken around the mid to late 1880s. If this isn't enough then I don't know what is.