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DAJ42
08-21-2006, 09:32 PM
Introduction: This is an attempt to show the movements of the Thomas Holland family from Nansemond County, VA. A start will be made several generations before Thomas, who is #6 below, and will thus include some information on families that married into the Holland line. Most of this data is from sources I trust. Data that my trusted sources or I have not verified will be clearly marked as such.

1. Gabriel Holland, the immigrant, was in Jamestown circa 1621. He had many children by potentially different wives. One son was
2. John Holland, born 1628 in James City, VA. Wife was Mary, surname unknown. His oldest son was
3. Henry Holland, born 1660 in Holland, Nansemond County, VA. Siblings included James, Joseph, John and Michael. Henry married Margaret Carr abt 1672 in Nansemond. One of their sons was
4. Joseph Holland, born 1684 in Nansemond VA. Siblings included Henry, John, William, James. Joseph married Phoebe Winburn abt 1708 in Nansemond. (More on her ancestry below.) They had
5. Joseph “of Spivey” Holland, born 1715. Siblings incl. Jesse, James, Jacob, John D., David. Joseph “of Spivey” married Ester Edmunds abt 1740 in VA.Their youngest son was
6. Thomas Holland, born 1752 in Nansemond, died in Greene County, GA. Older siblings incl. Job, James, Jacob, Solomon, John D. Thomas married Phoebe Rickman, aka Phoebe Winburn Rickman, 1779 in Nansemond, VA. They had a son,
7. William Holland, born 11 Nov 1791 in VA. William married Phetna McBee, aka Phetna Duncan, 6 April 1813 in Greene County, GA. Phetna was born in Greene County, GA 16 Jan 1795, and was allegedly the daughter of Samuel McBee. William died in Coryell County, TX 20 Aug 1869, Phetna’s death having preceded his, 23 Dec 1863 in Washington or Lawrence County, Indiana. Their daughter was
8. Phetna Martella Holland, born 14 Nov 1828 in Lawrence County (or Washington County), IN. She married Josiah Craig Foster 24 Aug 1847. Their daughter,
9. Addie Foster, aka Phetna Ada Foster, aka Addie Phoebe Foster, married Thomas McClellan Todd in Heltonville, IN, 20 Oct 1888. Addie was born 9 Aug 1862. These were my great grandparents.


Additional information on the Phoebe Winburn ancestry (see Joseph Holland, #4 above). Unfortunately, I don’t have adequate dates. Also, there are some conflicts among researchers, so this information is more of a guide than solid fact.

John Sanders, Sr, married either Susanna Ravenett or Phoebe unknown. He may have married both and had children by both. His son was John Sanders, who married Sarah Davis, daughter of Thomas Davis and Rebecca unknown. John Sanders, Jr and Sarah had Phoebe Sanders, who married John Winburn. Their daughter was Phoebe Winburn, who married Joseph Holland, above.

Discussion
I’m always intrigued when an exhaustively researched line, like the Gabriel Holland family, has women entering the line without surnames, or with surnames but no known parentage. I’m especially intrigued when this occurs in a region in which intermarriage with Indians was known to have occurred.

Potential Saponi or other reegional Indian connections are in the Phoebe Winburn line, Ester Edmunds, Phoebe Rickman, and Phetna McBee/Duncan. The Phoebe Winburn line might connect, although there are enough conflicts among researchers that the truth may never be known.

Ester Edmunds, ,married to Joseph “of Spivey” Holland is an unknown. A contemporary Saponi leader was King Edmunds. Perhaps Ester was his sister or cousin?

Phoebe Rickman, who married Thomas Holland, has been problematic for Holland researchers for decades. She is also known as Phoebe Winburn Rickman, which may provide a clue. Perhaps she was born a Winburn, married a Rickman and was widowed? Perhaps there she was the daughter of an Indian slave owned by a Rickman? There’s room for speculation and further research here.

Phetna McBee/Duncan. Holland researchers all say her name was McBee. Foster researchers all say it was Duncan. Perhaps both are correct. There was a family of SE United States Indian traders named Duncan. Some intermarried with the Indians. At least one of these mixed blood Duncan families was in the GA and TN Cherokee areas well before 1800.

Further, I know of only one (there may have been others, but this is the only one of which I’m aware) Samuel McBee in the general Greene Co, GA area in the 1790s. He was a Primitive Baptist preacher, who was rumored to have fathered many mixed blood children before marrying in 1797 at about age 28. He and his bride then moved to, I believe, Grainger Co, TN. Phetna McBee/Duncan and her husband, William Holland, may have had one child in Grainger Co while on a visit. I’ve come to the conclusion that Phetna McBee’s mother was of the mixed blood Duncan trader family, that Samuel McBee was Phetna’s father.

Some questions also need to be asked. First, what prompted Thomas Holland to move from Nansemond, VA to Greene Co, GA? Actually, he also had some property in Washington CO, VA, which he sold prior to moving to GA. Were his mixed blood wife and/or ancestry a problem? Was he involved with the Indian trade and attempting to find more lucrative markets? This type of question keeps me interested in this stuff.

Further, William Holland and Phetna McBee Holland moved to Washington County, Indiana, before 1820. He appears on the 1820 census for that county. There are several Duncan in neighboring Orange County on the same census. Both counties are on the South Fork of the White River. Much mixed blood “Cherokees” settled on the White River circa 1818 to be a buffer between the “whites” and the “hostiles”. I dunno of that was the North Fork, the South Fork, or both. I’m assuming at this time that the Hollands and Duncans were part of that “buffer group”. At any rate, contemporary to the Foster and Todd families were the Helton and Blackwell families in nearby Lawrence County. Nora, wife of Adam Blackwell, looks suspiciously mixed blooded in photos I’ve seen, so I’m pretty sure there were mixed blood families on the South Fork at the time in question.

Conclusions
The Gabriel Holland family has been exhaustively researched. He was an early settler in the Jamestown Colony. He and some descendants were in Virginia’s House of Burgesses. It also appears that some of his descendants married women of Indian, or mixed Indian and Causcasian, descent. At least 2 generations of Hollands, the Thomas and William families, moved to areas in which many mixed blood families lived. My working hypothesis is that this line of Hollands, is also of mixed Indian and Causcasian background. Women of mixed ancestry marrying into the line probably include Phetna McBee/Duncan, Phoebe Winburn Rickman and Ester Edmunds. Phoebe Winburn is also possibly on this list.

Bill Childs
08-21-2006, 10:32 PM
Click on 'search' in the upper right below the header and search on....
Winburn
Rickman
Holland
as well as your others.
Bill

collins
08-22-2006, 10:23 PM
My Collins family is connected to the Colonial Collins lines that were just next door to the Hollands, Williams, etc. For a while there was no proof as such but recently we have some interesting DNA evidence linking my Collins lines with that of those Williams and Collins in Nansemond.

DAJ42
08-23-2006, 11:20 PM
Williams and Collins? I've found no Collins, yet, but I think a Davis connected with the Williams family way back when, another Davis from that family marrying an early Holland.

Bill, thanks for the idea. Before making my first post here, I spent about 2 months reading and making good use of that "Search" feature. Figured it'd make more sense to be a part of this place if some of my surnames connected. Although I've yet to find the holy grail, the info gleaned from the searches has helped solidify my working hypotheses on more than one line.

Naturally, I keep using that "Search" thingy and did so again per your suggestion. This time it helped me get my McBees straight: if the Samuel that is allegedly in my line is the Samuel I suspect, then the Mary McBee/Mabee/Maybee who married John Austin, Jr was my Samuel's aunt.

PappyDick
08-24-2006, 10:28 AM
There's a book about the Jeffreys or Jeffries family that I believe nobody has cited, and I can't find my xeroxed pages from it to cite it myself. There was a copy in the NGS (Nat'l Genealogical Society) Library, which used to be a walk-in facility in Arlington VA (and before that, near DuPont Circle in DC). Now it's just a lending library for members, by mail. Anyhow -- more to the point here -- I believe a Holland female married somebody in that family, quite early (maybe 1680-ish). Or perhaps she was mentioned in some other context, like an indenture, guardianship or legacy.

Speaking of The Search Thingy, has anybody else been troubled by its feature whereby words of three or fewer letters are assumed to be prepositions (or something useless), and not searched for? There are rivers (Dan, Tar, Po) and families (Guy) eliminated by this feature; maybe other useful data. I wonder if it could be overridden, e.g if the short word in the query is capitalized and does not begin a sentence. Probably not. But I just wonder.

Bill Childs
09-05-2006, 12:10 AM
DAJ42,
Interesting.
Post, or 'email' me some specifics, without which, surnames mean nothing.
Bill

PappyDick
09-05-2006, 03:00 PM
I was rummaging around trying to find a hymn book I have misplaced, and quite naturally found the Jeffries/Holland reference I mentioned (post #5, above).

Louise Jeffreys Andrew, "Marmaduke Norfleet Jeffreys, His Ancestors and Descendants" (Atlantic City, NJ: for the author, 1983), 152 pages if I copied the last one (and I may not have).

I searched the forum for any reference to this well documented study and didn't find any. (Searched on "Marmaduke;" found several Swearingen and one Coats reference, but none to this book.)

So, with respect to Holland: as far as I noted, it had two connections. One is in the will of John Cotton (Cotten), Bertie Co., NC, 1728. He leaves one "puter" dish to "my daughter Mary holand." Another dau. of John Cotten was Patience, who married (Capt.) John Speir; she died shortly after the birth of a daughter Patience Speir in 1725, and her widowed husband was also bequeathed a puter dish in John Cotten's will. The baby Patience Speir grew up to marry Osborne Jeffreys (son of Simon) in about 1743.

The will of John Speir (written 1764, proved 1767) leaves five slaves and (?) pounds in silver and gold to his daughter Patience Jeffreys. In the next entry it leaves land purchased of James Lewis, and ten pounds in silver and gold, to his daughter Apple Holland.

DAJ42
09-07-2006, 07:28 PM
Bill,

Here are what specifics I’ve got on the persons of interest.

Phoebe Winburn married Joseph Holland about 1708 in the Nansemond County, VA area. Joseph was born about 1684 in Nansemond County. John Sanders, Sr, married either Susanna Ravenett or Phoebe unknown. He may have married both and had children by both. His son was John Sanders, who married Sarah Davis, daughter of Thomas Davis and Rebecca unknown. John Sanders, Jr and Sarah had Phoebe Sanders, who married John Winburn. Their daughter was Phoebe Winburn. Are there any known/suspected Saponi, Nansemond, Nottoway, etc connections in Phoebe’s ancestry?

Ester Edmunds, married Joseph “Of Spivy” Holland circa 1740. Joseph was born 1715 in Nansemond County, a son of Joseph Holland and Phoebe Winburn Holland. Is there anything known about Ester’s ancestry?

Phoebe Rickman, aka Phoebe Winburn Rickman, born 1755?, married Thomas Holland (born 1752 in Nansemond Co.). Is there anything known about Phoebe’s ancestry?

Phetna McBee, perhaps Phetna Duncan, was born in Greene County, GA 16 Jan 1795, and was allegedly the daughter of Samuel McBee. She married William Holland (born 11 Nov 1791 in VA) 6 April 1813 in Greene County, GA. Holland researchers all say her name was McBee. Foster researchers all say it was Duncan. Perhaps both are correct. There was a family of SE United States Indian traders named Duncan. Some intermarried with the Indians. At least one of these mixed blood Duncan families was in the GA and TN Cherokee areas well before 1800. Is there anything known about her ancestry?

The ancestry of these women, especially that of Phetna Duncan/McBee, has been a brick wall of mine for years. Bill, any leads or facts will be very much obliged.

Doug

DAJ42
09-07-2006, 08:09 PM
PappyDick,
Figures that you'd find genealogy info while looking for an old hymnal.

That's interesting info. Looks to be a peripheral line of Hollands to mine, though. Seems to be the story of my investigations: documentation for "cousins" but dead ends on my direct lines. But it adds incentive to keep searching.

Doug

techteach
09-07-2006, 09:47 PM
Doug,

I have a Duncan who marries one of my Greens in WVA. In the direct line that ends up in Licking County, OH.

Techteach

PappyDick
09-07-2006, 10:37 PM
Replying to Doug, two messages up:


Looks to be a peripheral line of Hollands to mine, though.

I expect so. Whoever they are, they are related by marriage to some of the close kin of the Jeffreys -- who were intimately associated with Saponi ID folks around Ft. Christanna, in Person County NC, and on the upper Tar River. Maybe elsewhere.

DAJ42
09-11-2006, 12:16 AM
PappyDick, investigating the peripheral lines seems to be my lot in life - it's frustratingly interesting. I sure learn a lot and sometimes come up with a connection.

DAJ42
09-11-2006, 12:23 AM
Techteach, once upon a time I would've discounted your Duncan as a potential link to mine. But the way a lot of the folks in your lines and my lines (and the Saponi lines in general) moved around, anything is possible. Looking through the old posts, I think your Duncans wound up with Sarah and Matthew way back when? All I've got is that the printed "History of Lawrence County, Indiana" lists Phetna Holland Foster's mother as Phetna Duncan Holland. And the fact that there were several Duncan families up and down the South Fork of the White River drainage in Lawrence and neighboring counties. Ain't much to go on, is it?

But I'm becoming convinced that there's at least one connection somewhere atween your folks and mine. Too many same surnames, many at the same places at the same times. You have the confirmed Shawnee, I have the "peripheral line". <grin>

PatMcDonald345
11-20-2006, 09:56 AM
Has it ever occurred to anyone that the Thomas Holland who married Phoebe Rickman MIGHT NOT BE the son of Joseph of Spivey??????

I find mentions of a Thomas Holland, wife Phoebe in Halifax, and mentions of Rickman men in the area.

Maybe fresh eye on old data that is not very clear??

Pat Mc

Bill Childs
11-20-2006, 01:15 PM
Hi, Pat,
A fresh look is always welcome. Do you have other data?
Bill

PatMcDonald345
11-20-2006, 04:07 PM
Here's a sampling. Hope it will fit:

In September 1763 the records of Cumberland Co. recite the probate of the LWT of JOHN HOLLAND, which he had executed two months earlier. Therein, the decedent cited his wife, JANE (BOND); his son, JOHN HOLLAND (Jr) -- to whom he devised a portion (100 acres) of the "home-place" and the 300 acres recently purchased of Job Thomas; HIS SON, JAMES HOLLAND -- to whom he devised 300 acres in Buckingham Co.; HIS SON, THOMAS HOLLAND -- to whom he devised the balance (300 acres) of the "home-place"; and "OTHER CHILDREN" whom the decedent did not name. The decedent designated a Benjamin Wilson, a Jacob Winfrey, Jr., and a James Holloway to be the Executors of his estate. The LWT was witnessed by a John Holland, Jr., a James Hudgins, and a William Watts. At the time of probate, the court appointed a William Holland, a John Bradley, and a John Minter to perform an inventory/appraisal of the estate of John Holland.<O:p</O:p
<O:p> </O:p>
James and Thomas were minors at this time. We believe they were born ca 1749-1752. One might think they served in the Rev. War, but no records have been found that can identify these particular ffice:smarttags" />lace w:st="on">Holland</ST1:place> men. The "other children" cited, but not named, in the 1763 LWT of John Holland of Cumberland Co. have not yet been positively identified or traced, but a strong contender is JOANNAH HOLLAND, b ca 1745, who married Joseph Hull Jenkins in 1769, according to JENKINS researchers. <O:p></O:p>
<O:p> </O:p>
THOMAS HOLLAND,son of John Holland and wife Jane -- like his brother, JAMES -- was a minor as late as 1766 and was cited as such in the aforementioned "accounts" submitted by Benjamin Wilson, an Executor of the John Holland estate. In 1769, "Thomas Holland, orphan of John Holland, dec'd," was apprenticed to a "Luke Kent, carpenter" in Cumberland Co. The last account submitted on behalf of Thomas Holland by Benjamin Wilson, EX of the estate of John Holland (d.1763), was in 1773. This would seem to indicate that this Thomas Holland attained his majority at about that time, thereby placing his birth as ca. 1751-52. <O:p></O:p>
<O:p
By 1774, this Thomas Holland had removed to Halifax Co., VA, as evidenced by a 1774 Cumberland Co. deed whereby a "Thomas Holland of Halifax Co." conveyed to a Jeffrey Robinson (Robertson) of Cumberland Co. 300 acres on a south branch of Willis River described as lying adjacent to properties of an Alexander Trent, a JOSEPH HULL JENKINS, a Lawrence Anderson, a Maurice Langhorne, and a George Keeling -- and as "being part of 400 acres willed to me by MY FATHER, JOHN<O:p</O:p
<O:p
<O:p</O:pHALIFAX</ST1:p VA Deeds<O:p</O:p

1778 Thomas Norris of NC deed to Thomas HOLLAND of Halifax for
131 ac adj Abraham Legrand, Wright BOND, Starke Boulware; wit.
James Holland, Julius Strange, Paul Watlington (Wright Bond is brother of Jane Bond Holland--uncle to Thomas)
<O:p</O:p

1780 Book 12, July 17, 1780 Wright BOND deed to Frederick Vaughn for 530 ac adj John Williams, Chastain Cocke, Starke Boulware, Thomas HOLLAND, Stephen Jones, Paul Watlington, John RICKMAN, estate of Walter Robertson;
wit. John Coleman, Walker Daniel, Andrew Wade, Thomas Tuck rec. Nov. 16, 1780
<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Deed Book 12 August 14, 1781 from THOMAS HOLLAND of H., to John Legrand, Jr. of H., for 2 horses in hand paid, about 81 acres in H., bounded by the lands of Stephen Jones, Nickless Vaughn, Starke Boulware, Abraham LaGrand, formerly belonging to John Norris. signed THOMAS HOLLAND. Wit. Abraham Legrand, Sr., Stephen Jones, Abraham Legrand, Jr. PHOEBE, WIFE, relinquishes dower. Rec. Aug 16, 1781
<O:p</O:p

1782 Thomas HOLLAND deed to Hugh Knox for 50 ac adj Stephen
Jones, Frederick Vaughn, Abraham Legrand; wit. Nathaniel Cocke,
Edward Parker, John Harris, Jeremiah Keen, John Coleman, Michael
Roberts

WASHINGTON CO. VA Deeds
7 Dec 1782 Thomas HOLLAND, assignee of Christopher Elms, assignee of Henry Hughes, assignee of George Gamble ...105 acres ...Land Office treasury Warrant on the waters of Beaver Creek, branch of Holstein River ...beginning corner to William BONDs land ...near a line of JONES land ...line of John Owens land ...

1790 THOMAS HOLLAND and wife PHOEBE of Washington Co. conveyed to a Leonard Hart of same 105 acres on Beaver Creek of Holson River, described as lying adjacent to properties of a William BOND, JONES, and a John Owens. Being property granted to the said Thomas HOLLAND in 1784; Wit: Robert Preston, Jacob Timmerlee, and Alexander Doran.<O:p></O:p>

DAJ42
11-20-2006, 10:22 PM
Anything is possible, I suppose, but a few things would need to be reconciled. Of course, there were several Thomas Hollands in Virginia at the same time, which, with records the way they were, adds to the confusion.

One thing, though, is that the Thomas Holland in my line apparently was in the Revolutionary War, as is believed by another researcher and which DAR records can verify. http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/g/r/e/Richard-B-Gregg/GENE13-0001.html It was indicated that the other Thomas Holland did not serve in that war.

Also, Joseph of Spivey did have a son named Thomas, as is clear in his will. http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=lestory&id=I32219

However, if there's convincing evidence that the Thomas Holland that married Phoebe Rickman is NOT Joseph's son, I'd be very happy to see it.

PatMcDonald345
11-21-2006, 09:34 AM
Okay, so we are pretty sure we have two Thomas Hollands, possibly about the same age. One is the son of a John Holland and Jane Bond Holland, who died in Cumberland Co. VA and mentions his minor son. Land records indicate his wife was named Phoebe, but we do not know her maiden name, nor do we know for sure what happened to him after he sold land in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.saponitown.com/forum/ /><st1:City w:st=Halifax</ST1:p</st1:City> in 1782. John Holland was son of Peter Holland (ca 1665-1750) and brothers are thought to be William, Peter II, Thomas (d 1800), James and Charles.
<O:p</O:p
We believe Joseph and Ester had a son named Thomas. I have not personally researched this family, and can only rely on what other people have posted—in spite of conflicting data. Some researchers place this Thomas in Nansemond Co. VA tax list in 1795-1802. They also say he married a Phoebe Rickman, but no marriage records are presented, nor are any Rickman families discovered in the area.
<O:p></O:p>
Thought to be the oldest son, I find this note about Harrison P Holland. .
Harrison P. Holland of <st1:State w:st="on">Tennessee</st1:State>, son of Thomas, was b. 10/24/1779 Nansemond Co., <st1:State w:st="on">Va.</st1:State>, deeded Job Holland in 1796, Nansemond Co., <ST1:p<st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Va.</st1:PlaceName> Also, he was bound out in 1796. He was listed on 1815 Nansemond Co. Tax Digest as owning 250 acres. . He m. in Greene Co., <ST1:p<st1:State w:st="on">Ga.</st1:State></ST1:p 12/2/1802, Elizabeth Rowland. One wonders greatly about why this guy would get married in GA and then return to Nansemond???
<O:p></O:p>
I do not argue with those records. But what I would point out are two things.
<O:p></O:p>
1. The Rev. War record of a Thomas Holland who enlisted 28th day of June 1776 (where?) does not mention a wife or parents, so we don’t seem to be able to share the author’s (Godfrey) “conclusions” or “beliefs”. It does not seem to be taken from a pension application.
<O:p></O:p>
2. The mention of a Thomas and wife Phoebe in 1790 Washington Co. VA does not indicate a maiden name for Phoebe, nor any parents for Thomas.
<O:p></O:p>
3. The Thomas, son of John and Jane, leaves a paper trail of land records that give good reason to think his wife was named Phoebe. We do not have any record of her maiden name, of course, nor of their marriage.
<O:p></O:p>
So we are left with one Thomas who is MIA. Either the son of Joseph, or the son of John, is likely to be the guy in 1790 and/or the one in GA. What happened to the other one? Perhaps a RW casualty? I’m pretty sure this is beyond my researching abilities. I do not have ready access to Nansemond records, and am not very inclined to follow up on that—intriguing as it is.

PappyDick
11-21-2006, 10:43 AM
From message #17:
"However, if there's convincing evidence that the Thomas Holland that married Phoebe Rickman is NOT Joseph's son, I'd be very happy to see it."

It seems to me that the "fresh eyes" have documentary evidence (it's perfectly clear in post #16) that the Thomas and Phoebe Holland, in the 1770s living in Halifax Co. VA next to a John Rickman, are not the son and dau-in-law of Joseph of Spivey. This Thomas sells his 131 acres in 1781-82, in two transactions. A Thomas married to a Phoebe shows up in 1782 with a several times reassigned land warrant (note, it isn't for his own service in the Rev. War) for 105 acres in Washington Co. That's the one cited (at least from 1790 on) on the website of Richard B. Gregg, linked in message #17. Whether he has any relationship to the busy person cited in the accompanying Rev. War records (on the same Gregg web page), I don't know.

But, unless there is similarly unambiguous evidence that another Thomas Holland (of several) -- in this case, the documented son of Joseph of Spivey -- married a Phoebe (Rickman), then I'd say that's the assertion that needs research, proof, whatever. Gregg says the research so far "has led us to certain beliefs." We are asked to share them.

DAR records are pretty good, latterly; but the published ones dating from before they got fairly serious about evidence (seems to me, that was about 1970 or a little later) are highly suspect, until one goes back to the proofs.

PappyDick
11-21-2006, 11:17 AM
From message #17:
"However, if there's convincing evidence that the Thomas Holland that married Phoebe Rickman is NOT Joseph's son, I'd be very happy to see it."

It seems to me that the "fresh eyes" have documentary evidence (it's perfectly clear in post #16) that the Thomas and Phoebe Holland, in the 1770s living in Halifax Co. VA next to a John Rickman, are not the son and dau-in-law of Joseph of Spivey. This Thomas sells his 131 acres in 1781-82, in two transactions. A Thomas married to a Phoebe shows up in 1782 with a several times reassigned land warrant (note, it isn't for his own service in the Rev. War) for 105 acres in Washington Co. That's the Thomas cited (at least from 1790 on) on the website of Richard B. Gregg, linked in message #17. Whether he has any relationship to the busy person cited in the accompanying Rev. War records (on the same Gregg web page), I don't know; these records don't tell me. Maybe some filed pension applications do?

But, unless there is similarly unambiguous evidence that another Thomas Holland (of several) -- in this case, the documented son of Joseph of Spivey -- married a Phoebe (Rickman), then I'd say that's the assertion that needs research, proof, whatever. Gregg just says the research so far "has led us to certain beliefs." We are asked to share them.

DAR records are pretty good, latterly; but the published ones dating from before they got fairly serious about evidence (seems to me, that was about 1970 or a little later) are highly suspect, until one goes back to the proofs.

PatMcDonald345
11-22-2006, 11:23 AM
I don't think the Gregg information you referred me to is very helpful. The RW information does not have any genealogical help, so could be just any Thomas Holland.

And, for starters, it looks like some of the descendant information has just been copied, and sloppy errors made. Harrison Holland is not very likely to have been born in White County, TN in 1779 since TN was not a state at that time, and certainly no White County. The 1850 White Co. census shows him as born VA. (And I do believe he died in White)

Have you personally found any data that places a Thomas and a Phoebe in Nansemond Co. Va, or anything about a Rickman family that could possibly have a daughter of right age?

I would welcome private email with attached files.
Pat McDonald mmcdonald3@houston.rr.com

PappyDick
11-22-2006, 12:19 PM
There was a glitch in the software yesterday, and something that I wrote (it should have been message #19, which doesn't exist) overlaid most of Pat's message #18. Sorry about that, message #18 was originally pleasant in tone. (The crabby part toward the end, which Pat didn't write, is duplicated in #20, after I reposted it.) Maybe Linda can recover #18, I can't.

Bill Childs
11-22-2006, 02:26 PM
Some Thomas Holland info:

1) Worth S. Ray in "Tennessee Cousins" (p.160), notes a company raised by Maj. Peter Fine and Capt. William Lillard which includes Maj. Fine's son Vinet, "in the latter part of 1783"... "Indians attacked them by surprise, killing Vinet Fine and badly wounding Thomas Holland, another member of their company.."
This 'engagement' occured while this company was on it's way 'home' to the French Broad (now in Tenn).

2) 1782 Cumberland Co., Va Tax List: Thomas Holland, 9 Whites, 5 Blacks.
Probably the same person is on the 1784 Cumberland Co., Va Tax List showing 10 White Souls, 1 dwelling and 8 other buildings.

3) 1782 Hampshire Co., Va Tax List: Thomas Holland, 2 Whites, 0 Blacks.

4) 1783 Nansemond Co., Va Tax List: Thomas Holland, 6 Whites, 0 Blacks.

5) 1784 Nansemond Co., Va Tax List: Thomas Holland, 6 Whites, 1 dwelling, 5 other buildings. There are many other Holland households on this 1784 list.

6) Rev. War. "Original Grants" : Thomas Holland, Private, 274 acres, 13 Feb. 1797. No.4742
(from Tennessee Genealogical Records" by Edythe Rucker Whitley, p.115)

PatMcDonald345
11-22-2006, 04:14 PM
I have problems with this forum format. Let's see how much will come through this time.

Peter Holland (1665 – abt 1750 Caroline Co. VA), is thought to be father of several sons, including the John who m. Jane Bond, and a Thomas who m. Sarah Bradley. This Thomas may have been born ca 1730???, and died in 1800 Cumberland Co VA. He had 8 known children. In other words, this Thomas is an uncle of the Thomas, b ca 1752, who had a wife named Phoebe, and is likely the man depicted in 1782 Cumberland tax list.
<O:p></O:p>
The 1782 Halifax Tax List shows a Robert Rickman (no Hollands <ST1:pthat I could find) In 1785 there are Robert Rickman, and Robert Rickman Jr. Also, there is a Peter Hudson, who I believe is father of Susannah Holland, wife of James.
<O:p></O:p>
In 1785, the Thomas who m. Phoebe would likely have had only 2 or 3 children, wherever he was.
<O:p></O:p>
The 1782 Washington Co. VA tax lists shows a Thomas Holland with 1 tithe, 2 horses. On the same list is Edward Bond and William Bond. This is surely the man who is mentioned in 1790 land transaction.
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<ST1:pCounty</ST1:p Surveyors Book
Page 17 - Thomas Holland, assignee of Christopher Elms, assignee of Henry Hughes, assignee of George Gamble...105 ac...Land Office treasury Warrant on the waters of Beaver Creek, branch of <ST1:p<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.saponitown.com/forum/ /><st1:country-region w:st=Eng.</st1:country-region></ST1http://www.saponitown.com/forum/ /><st1:PlaceName w:st=Washington</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st=" /><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Holstein</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">River</st1:PlaceType></ST1:p...Beginning corner to William Bonds land...near a line of Jones land...line of John Owens land...December 7, 1782
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I know nothing about the other Toms you mention.
PatMc

DAJ42
11-23-2006, 12:22 AM
I’ve read and reread the new info and hashed it over. I called my relative who researched this line. I’ve reviewed my records and sources and thought some more. Thanks for all the input, both data and constructive criticism, which has led me to some conclusions.

First, my sources…There is a book published by Heritage Press entitled “The Holland Family”. There’s also a Holland researcher whose name I don’t recall who has several disks of information that has been peddled over the internet. One or the other of these was placed online about 8 years ago and was later pulled due to copyright violations. The format used in the “Gregg” website matches the format used in that defunct website. I’ve found holes in some of the conclusions from both of these sources. While the errors were in the 1500s and earlier, I’m now finding that some of the 18th century data is erroneous. Much Holland research on the internet that uses the same format as the Gregg site uses those disks as a basis, I believe. I’m fast coming to the conclusion that those sources aren’t worth spit.

My relative did nearly our entire tree the right way, personally researching primary sources. Wouldn’t ya know, the line that he got lazy about was the Holland line. As a result, I cannot confirm any data before William Holland, son of Thomas and (allegedly) Phoebe Rickman. I have seen copies of reasonably good records as far back as William’s marriage in 1813. Georgia land records have more information on this family also, although I’ve had no opportunity to peruse them.

While there have not been any Rickmans found in Nansemond County, Dr. William Rickman (married to a van Meter!) was a ways up the James River at Kittiewan (spelling) after the Revolutionary War. Via river travel, there could have been a connection to the Nansemond Hollands. However, Dr. William has no documented offspring named Phoebe. He can be discounted as the father-in-law of Thomas (son of Joseph), but a blanket statement that there were no Rickmans associated with the Nansemond Hollands may not be entirely factual either. That Joseph of Spivey had a son named Thomas is clear from Joseph’s will. However, it’s unclear whether anything is ever known about this Thomas any later.

Regarding RW records and Thomas. I’ve seen records RW records about several Thomas Hollands. None of these were in Nansemond, but several mentioned a Thomas from Halifax. One mentioned that a Thomas joined in Pittsylvania County, next door to Halifax County. Clear evidence has been presented that shows that Thomas, son of John, lived in Halifax County. Occam’s Razor needs to get invoked – the Thomas Holland who joined the RW from Halifax/Pittsylvania is more likely the Thomas who lived there, rather than the Thomas from Nansemond. That is, son of John is more likely than son of Joseph.

Looking at the children born to Thomas and Phoebe, one thing is striking: while there are sons named Thomas and John and James, there is no son named Joseph. While not conclusive of anything, this is suspicious. This would not be the first time that a Holland line has been (possibly) erroneously tagged to the Joseph of Spivey line, as is discussed here: http://www.hollandfamily.us/stories/gabriel.htm Also, the potential birth year of Phoebe in the defunct site, the Gregg site and others is suspicious: it has her giving birth to several children while in her late 40s and up to age 53.

One of the questions I had, assuming Thomas was the son of Joseph of Spivey, concerned his move from Nansemond inland. I kept asking the question “why”, when most of his family remained in Nansemond. This ceases to concern me if Thomas moved to Halifax from Cumberland. Call it geographical logic or something.

Phetna McBee married Thomas’s son William in Georgia in 1813. The McBees lived for some time in the Halifax County area, a Mary McBee marrying into the Austin line (that of documented Nansemond Indian fame) in the early 1700s. They had lived before that in Maryland and northern VA. (Perhaps the McBees and Hollands moved to Halifax County together?) The McBees apparently followed the trading path from Halifax County into South Carolina, some settling in the Pendleton District. That’s not terribly far from the Ely’s District region of Georgia in which Thomas Holland and children settled around the same time that some McBees were settling in the Pendleton District. (Some Foster researchers claim that Phetna’s maiden name was Duncan. I believe there were some Duncans in Halifax County at about the same time as Thomas Holland was there.) Proximity to migrating friends answers the question why Thomas would migrate to Georgia.

Again, I appreciate the new data and the ideas. Challenging beliefs isn’t easy, but is necessary in the road to find out the truth about our ancestors. My Holland ancestry makes more sense if Thomas’s father was John rather than Joseph.

Bill Childs
11-23-2006, 12:47 AM
I've usually think that when lines of research list women having children in their 50's, a generation has been overlooked within that line. Although we know from recent news articles that it is not 'impossible', it was not the 'usual' turn of events during the era under discussion. We're here to research and discuss available facts, wherever that may lead, but I'm sure we haven't dug up everything available.

PatMcDonald345
11-23-2006, 09:57 AM
I believe that at least two authors have been quoted over and over, and personally, I find some of their information misleading to say the least. One is a Jeannette Holland Austin and the other calls himself Gabe.

Gabe is on the Holland mailing list, and I have challenged him about Thomas and Phobe, with no reply. He does have a Rootsweb tree, and I don't think he offers documentation for quite a few of his lines.

I find it frustrating to spend time offline preparing information in Word, then copy and pasting into this board. My data gets garbled.

Would anyone be interested in forming a little private email group to exchange info about the Cumberland-Hallifax Hollands? (I have not run across any folks who seemed to be Native Americans in my searches so far).

Pat McDonald mmcdonald3@houston.rr.com

DAJ42
11-23-2006, 11:34 AM
Other possible explanations for that "advanced" birthing age exist. Perhaps her birth year is a decade later than proposed. Perhaps Thomas had a wife that hasn't been found, Thomas thus having been widowed at least twice. Perhaps some of his alleged offspring belong to a different Thomas, as there were many Thomas hollands with sketchy records in that era and general locations.

Regarding the Phoebe and Rickman names...William, son of Thomas, used Rickman as the middle name for more than one of his children. The Rickman name appears in several generations of his descendants. At least in my line, the name Phoebe also appears, either first or middle name, for some generations after William. I think it quite likely that William's mother was Phoebe Rickman. From whence she came we don't yet know.

Indians and Hollands in Halifax County, VA? A close friend is researching Hancocks and Hollands, who intermarried for generations, from Halifax and neighboring counties. Photos of these folks exist, the earliest gentleman having been born circa 1835 in probably Halifax County, his mother probably being a Holland. Nobody could mistake this family for anything but Native American. An Indian/Holland connection likely exists. Whether it is with the descendants of Peter Holland has not been determined.

Thanks to Pat, there's another avenue to research for the William Holland ancestry. I'm grateful for this.

Quite Bull
11-23-2006, 06:04 PM
My great-grandmother was 62 when my grandmother Belk was born.

DAJ42
10-14-2009, 07:28 PM
UPDATE

Thanks to the input from Pat McDonald and some comments by Pappy Dick, I did further research into this Holland line. In a nutshell, anything posted about this family prior to Thomas Holland (born 1752) and Phoebe Rickman is unproven, and the generally accepted ancestry is likely false and inaccurate. Thomas's birthplace is unknown, but is unlikely to be Nansemond County. One group of researchers lists his wife as Phoebe "Unknown". Another group lists her name as "Unknown" Rickman. I'm comfortable with the conclusion that she was Phoebe Rickman, but without the middle name "Winburn".

Accuracy is something we should all strive for in our genealogical endeavors. Unfortunately, the "traditional" information about this Holland family with which I started this thread is not true, but has been published in both printed and internet format for many years. When discussing this line with my original source, it was discovered that on this line, my source had done no personal research into the Thomas Holland ancestry, but simply copied the "accepted" line that has been discredited by more meticulous researchers. Lesson learned.