croatan indians nc

[saj]

It's neat to see this book online.
Scroll to end for some family histories and photos!
http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/butler/butler.html
Sue J

[mdsmokedancer]

Chwe'n,
These are Tuscarora Kids family(Nation) from Sampson County NC,they were called Croatan like those in Robeson County NC. Same blood lines. Migration pattern, Northeastern NC(Tuscarora/Nottoway)Country then to Sampson Co. some stayed,some moved on to Robeson Co. NC.

Oo-neh
Mike
Ska-roo-reh'/Cheroenhaka Oo-skoot-gyeh'

[roskerah]

Chwe'n,
If I may add alittle to this subject, many probably haven't seen this yet: http://skarorehkatenuakanation.org/1885observer.html

This is a piece of proof that "Croatan" people were actually Tuscarora. Mr. McMillan made up the Croatan name which began the name cover-up here long ago. McMillan knew well before the passage of the Name Croatan, that that wasn't the right name though he continued to push it anyway. The name was passed on February 10, 1885, and this article came out two days later.

Ooneh,
Chris

[Bill Childs]

Thanks, Chris,
Most of us here knew how this "came to be", but we're happy you're getting it sorted out.
Bill

[Coharie Roy]

Roskerah/Chris,

Thanks for posting that link to the Feb. 12, 1885 Fayetteville Observer article. I'd never seen that before.

mdsmokedancer invited me over to your Yahoo web site (NC Tuscarora) last week and although I signed on as a new member, I haven't posted there yet. (I generally like to read all the posts first and get a feel for the place before speaking up. Of course with over 6,400 prior posts, that's going to take me several weeks.) I must say that so far, I like NC Tuscarora.

Now, everything I've read at your web site (NC Tuscarora) indicates that you're convinced the Coharie and the Lumbee (perhaps I should say, "so called Coharie" and "so called Lumbee") are actually in fact, Tuscarora. While I'd like to believe that, I've never seen any proof that persuaded me. However, indeed, it does appear that Hamiliton McMillan DOES say that the "so called" Croatan Indians (present day Coharie and Lumbee) regarded themselves as Tuscarora. (Like I say, I'd never seen that before.)

Now, although I'm not given to conspiratorial theories to explain things more easily explained by Occam's Razor (i.e. the simplest answer is usually the correct answer), I DO find your theory of name misdirection in order to head off potential land claims by surviving Tuscarora to be moderately persuasive. Certainly, with all that land at risk, the state of North Carolina would have been highly motivated to deny the prescence of any extant tribe of Tuscarora within her borders. You have a credible point there.

BUT, conspiracies (especially over time, and), if indeed bona fide, tend to fall apart and unravel. Furthermore, even if it were proved that the Coharie and the Lumbee were in fact Tuscarora, couldn't the state of North Carolina simply state that the land in question escheated to the crown (and thereafter, to the state) after the defeat of the Chief Hancock and the southern Tuscarora in 1713? Afterall, there was no peace treaty with the southern Tuscarora. They were simply defeated in war. (I'm aware that there WAS a treaty with Barnwell and that that treaty was broken by Barnwell.) And as for Chief Blount and the northern Tuscarora, I know there was a treaty made between him and the colonial government, but I don't know the terms of that treaty.

While I'm somewhat persuaded by your cover-up theory, and while I've heard of Michelle Lawing's migration patterns which place our origins in northeast North Carolina, I (and, it seems to me, any court of law) nevertheless [will] need direct and incontrovertible evidence linking actual people described as Tuscarora Indians in the historical record to today's Coharie and Lumbee. Although highly suggestive, I don't think migration patterns are enough (although I would dearly love to see Lawing's paper on the migration patterns - do you know how I can get my hands on a copy of her paper? I've seen it referenced by Robert K. Thomas and a few others but I don't know how to get a copy. The library at NC, Chapel Hill doesn't seem to have a copy.).

Roy

p.s.- Despite Tuscarora Kid's disavowal of me as his kin, we nevertheless ARE kin (at the very least, through his Simmon's line). Just to let you know, I'm full blooded Coharie (despite my father's claim to be full blooded Lumbee. At most, dad's perhaps 1/4 Lumbee and 3/4's Coharie [ I've traced all of my lines back to +/- 1775], so that makes me aproximately 7/8's Coharie, and that's why I consider myself full blooded Coharie.

[roskerah]

Chwe'n Roy,

Thankyou for your words, because I know how hard the truth is to swallow some times. Atleast in this instance, a "different" truth that most have grown up believing to be the truth.

Have you seen the chronology on our nation's website? IF not, here it is: http://www.skarorehkatenuakanation.org/TuscaroraChronology.html

In it, you will see more pieces of the puzzle, that will probably strengthen your new found beliefs. Had you ever heard that there was a James Coharee executed along side Chief Hancock during the Tuscarora War?

You will also see other old documents that predate to Croatan name, which all say Tuscarora. Nothing about Cheraw, or Catawba, or anything else that the Lumbee leadership preaches today.

Reagarding Lawing work, I have not been able to procure a copy yet, though I do have a copy of the settlement patterns that LRDA put out in the early 80's. In it, Lawing's work was quoted throughout.


BUT, conspiracies (especially over time, and), if indeed bona fide, tend to fall apart and unravel. Furthermore, even if it were proved that the Coharie and the Lumbee were in fact Tuscarora, couldn't the state of North Carolina simply state that the land in question escheated to the crown (and thereafter, to the state) after the defeat of the Chief Hancock and the southern Tuscarora in 1713? Afterall, there was no peace treaty with the southern Tuscarora. They were simply defeated in war. (I'm aware that there WAS a treaty with Barnwell and that that treaty was broken by Barnwell.) And as for Chief Blount and the northern Tuscarora, I know there was a treaty made between him and the colonial government, but I don't know the terms of that treaty.

The state has been able to keep the "name game" going all of these years, mainly because they have been able to persuade the leadership of both the Lumbee and the Coharie to be proud of those names, and in turn get their own people to not only accept it, but be proud of it. Our own people have made things easier for the State by these means alone. Also, the amount of monies that the State gives every year for what I call "propaganda", makes it even easier. The Lumbee can hire the best "historians", and "experts", with no one to contradict what they say. Hey, if Jack Campisi can create a history for the current Pequots, he can easily do it for the Lumbee, which he has done.

Next, the treaty that would open the door for everything else is the unratified 1803 treaty. In it, the lands of Bertie County would automatically revert to the state in 1916, that is, if there were no more Tuscarora still in the state. Our names changed from Croatan(Tuscarora) in 1911 to "Indians of Robeson County". Then, in 1913, the name was changed again to "Cherokee of Robeson County", which was just before the 1916 deadline. Regardless of of the deadline though, the fact that the treaty was never ratified makes everything moot anyway. "Recognized" Tuscarora still within the state would have standing to get that land back, but not if the people are Lumbee or Coharie, or whatever else.

Ooneh,
Chris

[mdsmokedancer]

Chwe'n Roy,
You can also talk again with Tuscarora Kid on the NCTuscarora group,he is a member there as well as I and I don't think that he will be bannded there.

Oo-neh
Mike

[Bill Childs]

Mike,
Tuscarora Kid is not banned but anyone's posts containing 'name calling' will be deleted.
Bill

[mdsmokedancer]

Chwe'n Bill
Ok,I thought that he had been banded. My mistake.

Oo-neh
Mike
Joo'-nah-geh'

[bothways?]

Funny, I posted something with no name calling (as before) and it was deleted.

[bothways?]

My post that was deleted pointed out that I had not accused anybody of anything, and certainly not falsely.

My post also said please do leave my other postings up for all to see and ponder deeply. Maybe then people will understand what I am saying.

The information I gave was given in no accusing, derogatory, name calling or other negative way.

I also thanked Red Metis for the explanation of why my point of view and information might have been met with such rudeness and hostility.

Let's see if this gets deleted too.

[saj]

Tuscarora Kidd,
If this was your very first post on the forum in reply to this thread then I guess I started this thread and OH MY GOODNESS....
We have read your posts...I have read all of them before they ever got deleted. And you know, I think you have gotten your point across. You are proud of your family...you are Tuscaroran...you are Indian, not white or black. Okay.
It is sweet to know who you are like you do. You really have nothing to search for.
I don't see the need for more insults. Do you have something to contribute here to our genealogy search? or some interesting historical articles or documents? Something? In a respectful kind way?
I guess I am not as fortunate as you to know my entire family history or I wouldn't be here delving. My family is much more fragmented. Saj

[Robco]

Originally posted by roskerah


You will also see other old documents that predate to Croatan name, which all say Tuscarora. Nothing about Cheraw, or Catawba, or anything else that the Lumbee leadership preaches today.



If anyone would have asked me a question about this subject a year ago I would have looked them strait in the eye and told them that we are predominantly of Eastern Siouan heritage with little or no influence from anyone else!

But alas my views have "somewhat" changed, although not completely!

I have to admit, given the fact that:

1.) Our people (at least some of them) have always claimed to come from Roanoke in Virginia (Note that: the Bertie county Tuscarora reserve was located on the Roanoke river in a territory that some would have considered part of virginia at the time).

2.) You have an account of the Lowrie family in 1875 being called Tuscaroras. This being the first specific reference ever made in the history books as to the tribal affiliation of anyone from Robeson County.

3.) When we were first recognized, the first, of many names placed on us by outsiders, was said to be false and a name (i.e. Tuscarora) appears to have been given by some of our people before anyone from outside of our community ever came here preaching to us about who we really are!

4.) The geneological research conducted relatively recently concluded that almost all of the original surnames in the Lumbee community came from relatively close to the Roanoke river (where a federally Recognized tuscarora Reservation was located at the time these families left this are) in an area that was at the time considered to be part of Viginia by some.

You do make a very compelling argument!

I still believe that we are also of eastern siouan heritage, but for now I'll shut my mouth, listen a little bit longer, and ponder over what I just said before I make my case.

This is a very good thread, I might add! Linda! Please don't delete it!

[Linda]

I have not deleted any threads. I did ban Tuscarora Kid. I didn't intend to erase all his posts, but once they were gone, I was glad they were. I have not deleted anything by Bothways. I am sorry to see that the Kid has not taken the hint but has signed on with another name.

[Ed Yancey]

Linda, I believe you must be as sweet and kind as your picture! I have to admire your patience and tenacity among other virtues. My wife and I were in Clarksville the Saturday after Easter and we took two of our grandson's to Occaneechi Park and the museum. They were two of the happiest guys you have ever seen . I have to go back and take my other grandchildren this summer and we thought about you when passing through. We left there and took 49 to Virgilina and then through part of the High Plains Sapony area before going back into Oxford, N.C.

Now Linda I have to make one comment after your last entry. I know which race these folks are from whether they like it or not. It's called the "human race" and one of it's major traits is having the last word!!!!!!!!!!! You know what I suppose if you don't have any or a culture then you don't exist. You know I think so I exist--I don't think so I don't exist! Real life and real living is much more complex than all that and my good old Native descended Grandma used to say it's a pitiful show when the Pot is calling the Kettle black. They both hang over the same fire and get covered with the same smut. Enough of all this, them that want to learn, love and be human, at least the best as us humans can be will not look to the innerself which can be deadly deceiving but to the outer--beyond and above anything we are at present to our God, Creator, Sustainer who alone can enable us to resemble even in the least way our Father. We cannot erase nor atone for all the attrocities and sins of men and nations all over this earth but He can. We cannot go on and on carrying chips on our shoulders and blaming everybody else for the plight of our people whoever our people are. Let us commit ourselves to telling the real story and helping any seeker to find their heritage. I don't know a one among us who chose our parents or grandparents before we decided to be born.

[Linda]

I was about to say the same thing last night about pots calling kettles black. I've seen many a flame on many a board where people who were posturing that they were"more Indian than thou" were roasting what they proclaimed to be 'wannabes' over the coals.

In every case, when enough details were revealed, every one of those accusers turned out to be an imposter in one way or another. One guy had MAYBE an Indian grandmother, though she was not on anybody's rolls. He grew up in a white suburb and got into Indians as a Boy Scout. Later he married an enrolled Indian lady, learned a huge amount about the culture he claimed he was from, and passed himself off as a leader.

Another time there was a lady who ran a popular forum. She liked sitting in this little fortress she'd made of it, taking shots at anybody she liked, lambasting them as wannabes. Later everybody found out she was not connected to any other tribal community, recognized or not, and her family album was filled with generation after generation of white looking people. Whatever ancestry she had was buried REAL deep, which would have been fine if she'd been honest about it and treated others appropriately.

My instincts are, when somebody's on the attack in this way they're hiding something. It's like the eastern and southern european immigrant-descended families I grew up around. They 'passed' for regular white Americans by telling a lot of racist jokes and being the most vocal bigots around. That's what all this smacks of for me, and why I won't have it here.

[Robco]

Originally posted by Ed Yancey
Let us commit ourselves to telling the real story and helping any seeker to find their heritage.

I don't think anyone has a problem with that! Personally it is those that tell a false story who anger me!

[Tom]

Perhaps you would be happier some where else.

[Robco]

No where did I ever accuse you of telling a false story, I don't know you.

Why did you take offense to that statement?

[Linda]

I think we're all a little battle fatigued at this point. Too many people crashing in and insulting us. I haven't seen you to say anything offensive, Robco, but we've been yelled at so much this week, nerves are frayed.

[Tom]

Robco you are correct and so is Linda, very much so, I do apologize to you, I hope that you'll understand and accept my apology.. it was a bad choice to say that.
Please understand it was a mistake!