New on the trail

[scbaker]

Greetings all,

I was referred here by Linda Carter. I'm new to Blackfoot research and I thought this would be a good place to post what I know about my possible Blackfoot/Saponi connection....

My g-grandfather last name was THACKER. His mother was Louisa Thacker and she was from John's Creek, KY in Pike CO. Grandfather Thacker never knew who his real dad was.

According to my grandmother, Louisa Thacker was a short woman with dark skin, long dark hair, and big dark eyes. She was a bad tempered woman who almost never spoke about her past or where her family came from.

According to family legend, Louisa killed a white man in KY and had to leave John's Creek in a big hurry. Another group of Thackers (maybe a couple of uncles, not sure) took her across the state line to Buchanan Co, VA. That's were they all settled down and that's were my g-grandfather was born. Two years after my g-grandfather was born, Louisa married a white man by the name of THOMAS and had several children by him. She is listed in the 1910 and 1920 censuses as being white.

My grandmother and her brother can remember a strange man who came to visit their house when they were little. The man was a Cherokee Indian from North Carolina who apparently knew their father. Neither one of them can recall why he stopped by to visit and their dad would not say.

A few months before my g-grandfather died, he told his grandson (my uncle) that he was a Blackfoot Indian. G-grandfather claimed that his father was an Indian, too.

Grandfather Thacker is listed as white in the census records. However, I've seen some old photos of him and he looks Indian - tall, lanky, dark hair, dark eyes, high cheekbones. His children and descendants have many of the same characteristics, although most of us have a fair complexion.

Some of the family embraces our possible Indian connection, but others refuse to believe it. It really will be nice to someday prove it and to finally know who we really are.

I know I've rambled a bit http://winwinworldnet.90.uslive.net/SaponiForum/UBB/wink.gif so I'll close for now with a couple of questions: Has anyone ever heard of Blackfoot Indians in Pike Co, KY? Where can I find more information about how to track down my Indian ancestors?

Thanks!

[Linda]

Pike County keeps coming up. I'm trying to pin it down, but for one thing the search feature isn't working right. Somebody tell that webmaster to get it fixed. http://winwinworldnet.90.uslive.net/SaponiForum/UBB/redface.gif) I believed you last week when you said there was reportedly a community of Blackfoot there. I think Crystal said she saw people migrating there. Did you say that, Crystal?

[Crystal]

Welcome to the Saponi forum and welcome to your new found family. http://winwinworldnet.90.uslive.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif

I am in the process now of trying to prove this settlement in Pike County (along with Bourbon County and Harrison County) is indeed Blackfoot Saponi. Although this is the first time I've seen the name Thacker, let me run some more names past you that I'm finding in this area that are known Saponi names. Do you have any Adams, Scotts, Morgans, Collins, Goins or Byrd in your line? These are the most prominant Saponi names that I'm finding in KY. Part of these communities claim Cherokee, part claim Seneca and part claim Blackfoot.

As you continue on your search, you will find that the more you "dig", the less your family will talk. I know exactly how you feel on this aspect. But, with alot of prayers and smooth talking, I have gotten alot of them to come out into the open. My prayers are with you and your family that this information will reveal itself.

Regarding the Thacker name and how they were able to pass as "White", I believe it may have been because it wasn't a prominant "Native, Colored, or FPC" name. Therefore, it was much easier for them to escape the "racial" boundaries set before them. Example, you state your family was dark hair, eyes and skin yet passed as white, mine were fair complexion, blue eyes and blonde hair (just as Anglo as you could be) but because of the name association with the Native Americans, they were classified as Mulatto, FPC, Portuguese, Colored, etc. As I said, Thacker is one of the few that were able to escape this.

In doing your research, check some of the Southerwestern counties of VA. Such as Bedford, Roanoke, Henry, etc. You may want to check Monroe and Greenbriar Counties WVA also. This seems to be the migration pattern that the Saponi took through VA, WVA into KY and TN. Keep me posted in what you find and I will let you know what I run across myself.

The best of luck to you and again, welcome to our family http://winwinworldnet.90.uslive.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif

Crystal http://winwinworldnet.90.uslive.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Keep your finger crossed this is the third time I have tried to post to this posting.

My ggggrandfather was Meredith "Meridia" Collins born about 1760 died 1841 Pike CoKy which was formed from Floyd Co. Ky. Meredith is listed on 1810 tax list as "Mullato" 1820 census as "fpc" . Also in Clay Co. Ky Meredith's first son Bradley Collins was listed as "fpc" (( outside my direct line living in Clay /Knox Co.Ky area was descendants of David Collins 1750 son of John Collins of Bertie Co.NC, supposely cousins to Meredith's children))Back to Pike Co. census 1820 Meredith's third common law wife, Millie JOHNSON and their son Levi Collins b.abt 1815 was listed as "slaves".

A couple weeks ago a wonderful lady that works in the Pike Co. area sent me some material she had copied of old records of my Meredith Collins. There were two deeds and early Collins marriage records. The deeds are in old handwritting and very hard to read. I have been able to make out that the Collins farm was on Shelby Creek and Meredith also held land on Crany Creek and a strip 10 miles wide and 30 miles long along the banks of JOHN'S CREEK.
Of this COLLINS family all were dark complected with dark hair and eyes. Archibald b. 1800 married Margaret COOTS and moved to Collins Creek in Logan Co. where he was a "tanner "of leather goods and made footwear.James Collins married Susie HOLLOWAY resided in Kanawaha Co.WV Edward Collins lived a while in Logan Co. before moving to Buchannon Co. Va and then died in Mingo Co. WV He married Anna JUSTICE. My John W. married 1) a TONER/TONEY and 2) ROARK
William born 1806 married 1) Mary MULLINS and 2) Maryanne HATFIELD He owned and operated a gristmill on Tug Fork of Big Sandy River and was a blacksmith and silversmith.Bradley got in trouble with the law and moved to Missouri with his cousins and little brother Reuben followed .

Crystal, I have been searching for over 30 years and another family relative 50 years before she died. Like you said family most of the time won't talk. My own grandfather got so angry and told me I was digging up more than I bargined for. My surnames COLLINS SPENCER TAYLOR BENNETT PERRY COOK PATTERSON ALLMAN LYONS GOFF COTTRILL DAY
WILLIAMS these are all from south West Virginia. I have a document on James Spencer ( war of 1812 pension applacation) which has him described as "Indian" and yet most of my people won't except this.What you have to say is very interesting. Please keep up the work.

Brenda

[Linda]

[quote]Back to Pike Co. census 1820 Meredith's third common law wife, Millie JOHNSON and their son Levi Collins b.abt 1815 was listed as "slaves".[\quote]

How did you know their names and that they were wife and son? Interesting about the shoemaker. That's what my Harrises were doing about the same time period in PA.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

I took over the research of a lady from Portland, Oregon. Her name was Eula Collins Conley. Eula was my mother's dear friend and just happened to be from my natural father's line. She had been searching for 50 years before her death and I picked up her research. In her old letters to my mother she told of talking to as many of the old timmers she could get to open up. ( A hard job!) Anyway Meredith;s first wife has never been discovered , he took up with Mary "Polly" HOLLOWAY about 1795 and she died about 1813-4. Millie was said to be his 3rd common law wife and this court record places them together: Pike Co, KY Crt Order March Term 1829 A-211

Ordered that a subpoeni herein be served against CALEBG BAILEY,

POLLY FORD, ELIZABETH PERRY, NANCY VENTERS, REBECCA FORD,

(#132 1850 PCK) ELIJAH HANSLEY, ELIZABETH STOTTS (m Peter

LEECH 7 Apr 1831) JAMES MAYS, POLLY LUCAS, ?GATSEY GRAY, JESSE

ADKINS, and SALLY BONEY (#141 1850 PCK) , NANCY NEWSOM, ISAAC

ROBERTS & DORCAS MULLENS, JOSEPH BRIANT, ARTI MULLENS, ISHAM

MULLENS & BETSY NEWSOM, HARRISSON NEWSOME & POLLY KINNEY, GEORGE

COLLANS & PATSY KIRK, MARTIN COLLANS & MARY COLLANS, MEREDY COLLANS

& MILLY JOHNSON, THOMAS STEWART & JANE POTTER, MARSHAL MULLENS

& SALLY potter, HIRAM CANTRILL & POLLY ELSWICK, and PEGGY

BISHOP, SALLY BELCHER, CHARLOTTE JOHNSON & FREDERICK ADKINS to

appear at our next may term to shew cause if any they can why their

children shall not be bound out

In another court record Millie sues Meredith for the support of her then 11 year old son, Merdy Johnson. In the 1830&40 census there is a Levi Collins in the Collins household with same dob as Merdy Johnson. I believe his name was actually Meredith Levi and he changed it from Johnson to Collins.

BTW folks note my email address has changed to bj04@mediaone.net

Brenda

[Crystal]

OK...we don't have a symbol for OH MY LORD..<G>

Brenda, you definitely caught my eye on something which is tying into another project of mine. OK..here goes. Newsome (Newsoms) you listed on the marriage certs. Newsomes was one of the surnames that was part of the original "Free Town" of Brunswick County. They were all listed as FPC. Freetown was another one of these "settlements" that stayed after the closing of Ft. Christanna. They are another prominant Saponi name. Here we have proof of yet another Collins marrying into another Saponi name. To me, this is showing clanship. They never married outside of our circle. We have already established the fact that the Collins is a definite Saponi name in WVA and KY. This now shows that more of the tribe than what I originally thought migrated west. WHY????

I still believe it's going to be the attack on Harrison County with Byrd leading the pack. 600 Natives and Canadians to go with him.

So, we have Adams, Morgans, Newsomes, Collins, Goins, Jarrells and this is just the tip of the iceberg. Keep the info coming. I'm documenting all of this information. Hopefully, one day, I'll put it all together. <G>

Crystal http://winwinworldnet.90.uslive.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Chrystal, Perhaps you can make something out of this. Let me knowwhat you find out on the Harrison Co. WV info as I had BENNETT COTTRILL DAY that I can't find much on.(Taylor/Harrison Counties along the border WV/PA)also PERRY ALLMAN LYON FISHER MARKS PATTERSON (Northumberland area)

Pike Co. Collins Early Marriages

Archibald Collins / Margaret Coots/Cook 1824
James Collins /Susey Holloway 1824
Leanard Collins/ Nathania Price 1831
Edward Collins/ Amy Justice 1834
George Collins/ Patsy Elswick 1838
Levi Collins/Nancy Johnson 1836
John Collins/ Eliza Justice 1839
Thomas collins /Elizabeth Clark 1843
Jacob Collins/ Nancy Riffe 1843
Andrew Collins / Elizabeth Smith 1845
Jacob Collins / Elizabeth Cravens 1847
James Collins / Rachel McGuire 1851
William Collins / Polly Hurley 1861
William Collens / Louisa Charles 1866
Frances Collins/ Mary Reed 1866
Allen Collins / Nancy David 1869
John Collins / Mary Slone 1868
Allen Collins / Nancy Davis 1868
****************************************
Susey Collins / John Sexton 1822
Gerusha Collins / Joseph Blair 1828
Polly Collins / Peter Fredrick 1831
Sarah Collins / John King Sr. 1835
Elizabeth Collins / Wm Kirk 1848
Mary Collins / Kalsey Taylor 1855
Kissey Collins / Joseph Ray 1866

*****************************************

Pike Co Land Records

Meridia Collins 50 ac Shelby Creek 1823
Bradley Collins 50 Ac Shelby Creek 1823
Bradley Collins 50 ac Shelby Creek 1825
Andrew Collins 60 ac Stinking Brook 1828
Andrew Collins 100ac John's Creek 1859
John Collins 225 ac Brushy Creek 1866
Andrew Collins 300 ac John's Creek 1868

Crystal , I believe the 50 ac of land was given Meridia for his service in the Fincastle Co. militia 1776. Two years before that was the Dunmore War and there were several Collins in that list which also included names in the Fincastle list but in 1774 Meridia would have only been 14 years old and probably too young. He was only 16 when he enlisted under Captain James McDaniel's. It is interesting I can't find anything written about James McDaniel's . I have a feeling that company was made up of mixed bloodlines.(I found the enlistment record hidden away in the Christianburg Va. courthouse.)

[troislangues]

Crystal, where did you find your info on WVA and KY and the attack by Byrd? What is that timespan and actual battle..? I would like to search for our surname there. Have any of yours travelled to Texas, OK, KS, MO, AR? If so, what would have been the dates of removal for them? If seems that none of ours register in Texas before 1860 census for San Augustine County, give or take a few years. There are White Hudson's there and I am wondering if they were somehow their slaves. I have heard of stories where Indians chose to become slaves rather than remain behind. You also mentioned Tennessee. Were they removed to Kentucky and then Tennessee...perhaps East Tennessee? Is this what you mean by moving West or were some Saponi present in those areas before. If anyone can elaborate on their ancestors' migration patterns past the eastern board....

MmeTroislangues

[Linda]

That document you showed us Brenda, the subpoena with all those names listed announcing the court's intent to bound out all those people's children -- that looks very significant. Are all or some of those people interrelated? At first glance, it looks like a kind of "Indian School" deal, where kids in 1829 in Pike Co. KY, are being taken from people too native, too "wild" perhaps to their "Christian" neighbors? Am I jumping to conclusions? Or is this a list of Saponi people whose kids are about to be taken up in a 19th century version of DSS to be raised by others?

[Linda]

Madame, I've looked at some of our family data and compared it to the people in the same time and place suspected to be of the same NDN roots, but who are listed as "mulatto" people and I got a sense that there was a point at which those who could 'pass' simply did so with their next move westward. Seems to coincide with the onset of Jim Crow. I guess it was something like having to make a choice between your children's future and keeping up ties with second cousins.

It could be those Hudsons are your cousins.

[troislangues]

Kewl!!!

Found this info on Google concerning Pike Co. KY records:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Pike+Co.%2C+Kentucky+marriages+records

The above is not a clickable link...or try Google search "Pike Co., KY marriage records." Some of the links do not follow through and I am e-mailing the webmasters about it. One particular site features info on Melungeons, folklore/culture, history, 1850 census, genealogy, photos etc.: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~mtnties/pike.html


Pike Co. Data and Resources including message boards, queries etc.: http://rootsweb.com/~kypike/

I'd encourage people to include the URL's with the information they give onsite. It saves a little searching time. Plus, not two searches ever yield the exact same info. I like Google because it is so extensive.

Troislangues

[scbaker]

Crystal,

Thanks so much for the advice. Plan to start looking into those counties - I'll share what I find out.

As far as the surnames you mentioned, I haven't run across any of those names yet in my line. But, I know so little about my great-grandfather's family. I've put off researching his line for a long time because it's so frustrating. However, now that my grandmother (his daughter) has moved closer to me, I plan to gather all the info I can from her and continue the search.

I don't know beans about my great-grandfather's real father, but with the extra clues that you have provided, I plan to look around the recommended counties and also Pike Co to see if any of those surnames are listed near any Thacker families. It's a long shot I know, but a good place to start.

One more thing that I remember my grandmother telling me was that her dad's family "came down into" John's Creek and settled there. I hadn't given it much thought until after I read what you wrote about migration. I'm going to ask my grandmother more about this.

[scbaker]

This might be a bit off topic.......

Brenda, do you know anything about Amy Justice's family? Was she related to Keziah Salisbury Justice (Pike Co)? The reason I am asking is that I am a descendant of Keziah and some researchers believe she was part-Indian.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

This site is great....It's good reading. http://www.rootsweb.com/~kypike/justice.htm

Yes Amy is from that line and all the information should be found here.

Good Luck.

Brenda

[scbaker]

Thanks for the site link, Brenda. I've made myself a print out. It's so confusing tryingto keep all those Simeons and Johns straight. http://winwinworldnet.90.uslive.net/SaponiForum/UBB/wink.gif

Well, the search to unravel my elusive g-grandfather's past has become a bit more complicated. The census records and information from his kids state that he was born in Virginia. So, I sent away for a copy of his birth certificate. Well, I received a letter from the Virginia records department stating there is no VA birth record for Hibbard Thacker. Talk about frustrating! I had hoped the birth record would shed some light on who his mother was and possibly who witnessed his birth. No such luck.

I know that no proof of his birth doesn't mean he wasn't born in VA - especially since his mother was not married to his father. I know records were kept in the county were he was supposedly born; my g-grandmother (his wife) was born in the same county two years later and I have a copy of her birth record. Given the fact that most of his life and his family history is buried in shadows and secrets, this only adds more questions to my already long list of who exactly he was.

Grandfather Thacker did have a Social Security number that was issued in VA. I'm curious as to how he got that number. I thought that a person had to show a birth certificate in order to get a Social Security number? Does anybody know if that was true in the early days of Social Security?

[collins]

SOCIAL SECURITY:
I know a bit about this topic cause we did some research on birth records and such through the Social Security Department. Yes anyone getting SS had to have a birth record. This could be a birth certificate, or an affidavit from friends and relatives, or a delayed birth record. The Social Security Department does have record of these transactions, however, getting them to admit to being able to access these records is another matter entire. It may be end up being something like envoking the Freedom of Information Act plus being a direct relative to dig it up from them directly. There is good news though. You can send a request to Washington D.C. to get delayed birth records.

[collins]

Social Security Continued:
I can not remember the address so please contact Donna Tower. She is my cousin in Ohio. Her e-mail address is
dtower@toast.net
she will be glad to help you out with it.
This is my cousin that has been helping me out with the Saponi and Cherokee lines of the Collins and Johnson families. She is a good resource for most of all these questions posted.

[scbaker]

Thanks, Cotton Top. I just sent her an email.

[redfox]

from social security you need to get copy of ss-5 request form L-997 "social security number record-third party request for extract or photocopy" if you know number cost is $7 if known $16 for unknown ss#when completed form is to be mailed to office of central records operations social security administration baltimore MD 21201 allow 4-6 weeks if person is still living they must sign persmission and need two witnesses if social security never received notification of death your request will be denied they will still send you a letter explaining denial.happy hunting hope this helps. Also remember that census records before birth record are the birth certificates.Sometimes they are not correct if no one was home they could get informaiton from neighbors.

[troislangues]

Linda, sorry to reply so late...I just read this posting. Could you give me the given names and dates and location of your HUDSON's? Mine are:

Charley HUDSON, wife Eunice b. circa 1867 San Augustine, TX

parents???
brother, Burl HUDSON, b. 1867, San Augustine, TX
Isn't that a shame, that's all I have to go on...bummer.
MmeTroislangues

[troislangues]

Hey, or better yet, didn't you have that info on a genealogy site somewhere? Do you have a GEDcom?

Troislangues

[troislangues]

Crystal, are you researching THACKER's in other states? Found some in my ancestors' state of Texas:

1850 San Augustine Co., TX Federal Census

I.H and Susan Thacker, #354A ...born in AL, Mi.
http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/tx/sanaugustine/census/1850/pg0342b.txt

Also, SK Publications has sent me entire census information for free..doc.attachment. http://www.skpub.com/genie/census.html

[troislangues]

I found a slew of MULLINS in Ashe Co., N.Carolina:

ftp://ftp.us-census.org/pub/usgenweb/census/nc/ashe/1850/indx-m-p.txt

I realize I am posting much these days but I keep finding things I believe will be useful to someone else.

[-cr21-]

I have Thacker family from VA also. They married Hensons and a Ruth Bowles b 1739 who is according to some sources from Chote Town. Tell me what you have and we can compare.

[rosebudsaponi]

Thacker is a pretty easy name to trace. This last post has definitely caught my eye. Thacker marrying Bowles, variant of Bowling/Bolling. Ron, I hope you are seeing this. Especially at this early date also. I'd like to see what you have on this Thacker/Bowles line.

[-cr21-]

I don't have much info on the Thacker/ Bowles line. This is all.....

Benjamin Thacker Sr.
b abt 1739 Hanover Co., VA
d abt 1798 Albemarle Co., VA

m. Ruth Bowles
b abt 1739 Chote Town
d abt 1767 Goochland Co., VA

William Thacker
b abt 1710-1720
d 1761 in VA

m (unknown Cherokee)
b unknown
d unknown

That is as far back as the records for that family go. I think it is possible she is Chief Bowles older sister or cousin. There are several Thacker, Henson and Bowles lines among the Choctaw and Cherokee.

[Forest]

There is a 1840's Ohio Supreme Court Case involving a mixed race Thacker from Virginia. I believe it is Thacker v. Hawk. 1841 or so. I have seen it cited in a number of Midewestern cases involving racial identity. Might be of interest to you.

[-cr21-]

I'm really curious about these Cherokee wives of these men. Maybe they are instead Saponi or remnant groups from the Powhatan tribes. Anyone have any thoughts?

[GK01]

Hello,

[GK01]

(Sorry about my previous one word post. My cat decided I was finished.)

Hello,
I am originally from Pike County, KY. A few months before my great-grandmother, Ida Breedlove, passed away, she was going through some old family photos with my father. He came across a tin-type photo and asked her who it was. She told him that it was a picture of her mother, Rebecca Goff. My father remarked that Rebecca Goff looked a lot like an "Indian" and my ggrandmother informed him that she was in fact a "Blackfoot Indian".

[GK01]

(Again, I must apologize, my cat cut the last post short.)

Rebecca Goff's parents were John Goff and Nancy Ramey. This branch of my family has long resided on Raccon Creek in Pike County.
I have posted this information in hopes that it might aid anyone else who is trying to trace the Blackfoot in Pike County. I look forward to hearing from you.

Sincerely,

Gary

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

I also have a Goff line that goes back to Thiel . Supposely there was origionally four Goff brothers sons of Thiel.
Children by first wife: Hannah Thurston
i. JAMES2 GOFF, b. 1740; d. 1834, Preston Co. Va..
3. ii.JOHN THURSTON GOFF, b. 1738, MD; d. 1803, Monongalia Co. now Preston Co.

Children by second wife: Joanna Strothers
iii. THOMAS JONAS2 GOFF, d. Winchester, Kentucky Clark Co.; m. (1) MARGARET PARSONS; d. Winchester, Kentucky Clark Co.; m. (2) MARGARET GRAY, 1778.
4. iv.SALTHANIEL GOFF, b. 1748, MD; d. 1791, St.George, Tucker County/Randolf VA/WV.
v.TOMAR GOFF.



19. JAMES5 GOFF (SANTHANIEL GEORGE4, JAMES C.3, JOHN THURSTON2, THIEL1) was born 1835 in Barbour Co. WV, and died 1864 in Grafton, Taylor Co.WV. He married RACHEL STANSBURY 1853 in Fayette Co Pa, daughter of MOSES STANSBURY and HANNAH FERRELL. She was born 1835 in Taylor Co. WV, and died 1917 in Harrison twp,Ross Co. Ohio.

Children of JAMES GOFF and RACHEL STANSBURY are:
i. MARY CATHERINE6 GOFF, b. 1854.
ii. JONAH C. GOFF, b. 1856.
iii. FRANSIS MARION GOFF, b. 1857.
iv. ANN AMELIA GOFF, b. 1859.
21. v. HANNAH GOFF, b. October 05, 1862, Ritchie Co. WVa.; d. 1943, Nicholas Co. WVa..

#5 Hannah was my great grandma md to Sanford Bundy Perry
# 19 James Goff was my gr gr grandpa
This is on my mother's side of the family.

[sammarroq]

Many of my surnames listed here...this could be usful to others here.:)