Spencer Surname

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Crystal,Emma, Linda, Others,

In the past two days I have recieved some new information and heed help.

First: Chrstal, discovered another researcher searching the TAYLOR line of NJ with a NA connection. Looks like it might be my same William Taylor line and we are sorting through info still.

Second: I was sent an email yesterday with the name of an Onieda Indian by the name of Thomas Spencer aka Ahnyro or Ahnyero

Is anybody familiar with this Indian name?

Since I have found that this Thomas Spencer was with Joseph Brant when they signed the Tready of Buffalo Creek


http://www.councilfire.com/treaty/treat222.htm


Also he was with Brant at the Cherry Creek
Massacre
http://www2.whidbey.com/jerod/cherry.htm



Extracted :

As October wound down, Alden became convinced there would be no concentrated attack on Cherry Valley until possibly the following spring. On November 8th, Alden received a hastily written message from Fort Schuyler, warning that Tories and Indians would attack his post. The message, carried by Captains James Parr and Michael Burd, was brief.
Sir,


We were just now informed by an Oneida Indian, (THOMAS SPENCER) that yesterday an Onondaga Indian arrived at their castle from one of the branches of the Susquehanna, called the Tioga. That he was present at a great meeting of Indians and Tories at that place and their result was to attack Cherry Valley, and that young Butler was to head the Tories. I send you this information that you may be on your guard.

I am Sir, yours, &etc.
Robert Cochrane Major, Commanding

Colonel Ichabod Alden

I know this has nothing to do with Saponi Research but I could use any assistance in where to look next.

Also.....those that are familiar with West Virginia where most of my relative seems to have roots, there is a Cherry River in what is today Nicholas county and also a Tioga, WV. Family oral history states that my ggggrandfather James Spencer was the son of a Thomas Spencer of the Onieda Tribe altho I have also heard Cherokee. (swear my ancesters are getting their kicks from my confusion)Only source of documented proof is the War of 1812 record that only identifies him as INDIAN not what tribe. Crystal, on this record it proves that the Spencer and Taylor families were close back into the 1700's. BTW emailed your ex mother-in-law but never heard back from her.

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Life is a Rainbow made up of Many Different Colors.....


[This message has been edited by Brenda Collins Dillon (edited 11-22-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Brenda Collins Dillon (edited 11-22-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Brenda Collins Dillon (edited 11-22-2002).]

[Linda]

Was Joseph Brant in WV at all? Seems too far south, but then I haven't studied that history at all.

Thanks for this info.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Linda, niether have I but I have found some interesting reading in the past two days. In several of the articles I find names that is also accoiated with places and landmarks in West Virginia.
An uncle of mine ,now in his late 80's and memory isn't so good anymore once told me that James Spencer "moved across the mountains into Greenbrier River area to get away from slavery". Uncle Glenn didn't explain what he meant.

I find it very interesting that the Spencer and Taylor families, both of my lines, knew each other all the way back to the War of 1812 days. Sons (3) of my ggggrandfather Daniel Taylor and 1 son of James Spencer signed as witnesses to James Spencer's military Application.

Linda, Do you have any idea what Ahnyro or Ahnyero means?

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Life is a Rainbow made up of Many Different Colors.....

[Linda]

Do you know what language those names are from?

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

An elder cousin says that she was told by her grandfather that James father came from a tribe in the upper New York area. She believed was Onieda. Here is what I have read on the Tready of Buffalo Creek:
http://www.councilfire.com/treaty/treat222.htm

I tried to copy and paste but they have it set up so you can't copy . It is a very good site with many names, locations, and gives the tribes that make up the NY tribes which includes the Tuscaroras.

Now on another note....I have also heard the Spencer line was Cherokee but I find that hard to believe.

Thomas Spencer was a blacksmith and that trade was passed down through the generations. Even today my Uncle Glenn Spencer is a blacksmith.


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Life is a Rainbow made up of Many Different Colors.....

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

I recieved an email on this post. It says "Ahnyero" means "Blacksmith" in Spanish
Does anybody know enough Spanish to verify this?

If Ahnyero aka Thomas Spencer was from the upper NY area how did he end up with a Spanish name? More questions.......

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Life is a Rainbow made up of Many Different Colors.....

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Linda, You wrote:
Was Joseph Brant in WV at all? Seems too far south, but then I haven't studied that history at all.

The parents of Joseph Brant were Mohawks whose home was at Canajoharie on the Mohawk River in New York. Brant, however, was born on the banks of the Ohio River in 1742 while his parents were on a hunting excursion to that region, and was given the Indian name of Thayendanega, meaning "he places two bets". His father was Nickus (or "Nicholas") of the Wolfe family, who, although not a chief, was a Mohawk of some standing in the tribe.

Those who remained loyal to England, known as "Loyalists" or "Tories", were not all colonists. Other allies of the British were numerous Indian tribes, more especially the Iroquois tribes who occupied the lands from upstate New York south to northern Pennsylvania with scatterings further south and north and extending west to the Great Lakes. The Iroquois League, also known as the Six Nations, was a confederation of upper New York state Indian tribes composed of the Mohawks, Onondagas, Cayugas, Senecas, Oneidas, and Tuscaroras. They lived in comfortable homes, often better than those of the colonists, raised crops, and sent hunters to Ohio to supply meat for those living back in New York.

scatterings further south

I guess it is possible that Brent journeyed south from Pennsylvania into west Virginia.
Any thoughts????


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Life is a Rainbow made up of Many Different Colors.....

[Linda]

I'm sorry. I'm having trouble getting the facts straight. Who is it you're investigating with this, James Spencer? Could you summarize what you have on him in hard data, family lore, etc? Maybe that will help me get my head around this.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Linda, below is what I have on James Spencer,my ggggrandfather. He is the only ancester I have a document that states that he was "INDIAN" but it does not say which tribe. Family oral history says his father and grandfather went by the name of Thomas and that they were from a tribe in upper New York. I know this probably has nothing to do with the Saponi tribe but it appears that many from the area of Colonial America went north. Hope this clears up your confusion.
Brenda

JAMES3 SPENCER (THOMAS2, THOMAS1 SPERNCER, ELDER) was born 1785 in Greenbrier Co. Va., and died 1880 in Nicholas Co. WVa.. He married (1) ELIZABETH HOPTONSTAL 1808 in Greenbrier Co. Va., daughter of ABRAHAM HOPTONSTAL and RACHEL PRICE. She was born 1791, and died 1831 in Greenbrier Co. WVa.. He married (2) MARY COOK 1833 in GreenbrierCo.Va.. She was born 1815 in Va..

Children of JAMES SPENCER and ELIZABETH HOPTONSTAL are:
i. MARGARET4 SPENCER, b. 1810, Greenbrier Co. Va/WV; m. FRANSIS TINCHER, 1826.
ii. WILLIAM HAMILTON SPENCER, b. 1813, Greenbrier Co. VA/WV; d. 1890, Nicholas Co. WV.
iii. ALLEN SPENCER, b. 1807, Greenbrier Co. Va.; d. 1881, Nicholas Co. WV.
iv. JESSIE SPENCER, b. 1820.
v. MADISON SPENCER, b. 1820.
vi. RACHEL SPENCER, b. 1822.
vii. SMITH SPENCER, b. 1824.
viii. ABRAHAM SPENCER, b. 1827.
ix. SI SPENCER, b. 1829.
x. ELIZABETH SPENCER, b. 1831.
xi. JAMES SPENCER, b. 1831.


Children of JAMES SPENCER and MARY COOK are:
xii. LYDIA4 SPENCER.
xiii. MARIE ANN SPENCER.
xiv. MCNIEL SPENCER.
xv. ALEXANDER SPENCER, b. 1836.
xvi. GEORGE SPENCER, b. 1837.
xvii. SAMUEL SPENCER, b. 1838.
xviii. WASHINGTON SPENCER, b. June 01, 1844, Nicholas Co WVa.; d. January 18, 1921, Lewis Co. Wash..
xix. FRANKLIN SPENCER, b. 1844.
xx. SARAH SPENCER, b. 1847.
******************************************
WAR OF 1812
CLAIM OF SOLDIER FOR SERVICE PENSION
dated March 9, 1878
STATE of West Virginia
COUNTY of Greenbrier

On this date and in this county , the aforesaid, JAMES SPENCER, age 94 years and
resident of Trout Valley in the county of Greenbrier, WVa. who being duly sworn
according to law, declared that he is the identical James Spencer who served under the
name James Spencer as a soldier in the company command of Captain S. Taylor in the
regiment of Virginia, commanded by Col. Jas Concade in the war of 1812; that he
enlisted at Lewisburg, Greenbrier Co. WV on or about September 1, 1812 and served a
term of 6 months and continued in actual service of said for the term of 6 months. He was
hereby discharged at Lewisburg, Greenbrier Co. on April 1 of 1813. That since the date of
his discharge he has resided in WV, Ohio, and Illinois. Age about 26 when enlisted with
birthplace being Greenbrier Co.Va.

The following is his description at the time of his enlistment, Via :Indian, dark
complexion, black hair, black eyes,5 feet 8 inches high

He makes this declaration for the purpose of obtaining the pension to which he may be
entitled under section 4736 to 4740, inclusive, Revised Statues, and the act of March 9,
1878, and hereby appoints with full powers of substitutions and revocation AW Fitzgarald
of Wash.DC, his lawful attorney, to prosecute his claim.

He also declares that he has therefore made NO application before for Bounty Land or
Pension. He gives his residence is now Nicholas Co. WV in the town of Trout.
signature_________X___________

ATTEST: Washington Spencer ( s/o James & my gggrandfather)
Jacob Taylor

Also personally appeared Moses Perkins age 82 years residing in Greenbrier Co. and
Solomon Taylor age 79 years residing in Nicholas Co. WV, persons I certify to be
respectable and entitled to credit , and who being by me duly sworn, say that they have
known James Spencer for 75 years and 55 years respectively; that they were present and
saw him sign his name to foregoing declaration; that they have every reason to believe,
from the appearance of said claimant and acquaintance with him, that he is the identical
person he represents himself to be; and the further say that they are able to identify him as
being the identical person who rendered the service alleged to in this application.

SIGNED: William W. Taylor Moses Perkins

James Spencer X Solomon Taylor X

SWORN: this 18 day of June 1880




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NOTE: William Taylor, Jacob Taylor, and Solomon Taylor is from my Daniel Taylor line thus proving the Taylor and Spencer's knew each other for many years. Washington Spencer was my gggrandfather and son of James Spencer verifying I have the correct lineage.

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Bio of James Spencer
James was the father of 20 children, including 3 sets of twins. His second wife ,Mary Cook must have died before he did. In his later years he made his home among his children. During the years preceding his death, ( July 4, 1880) he had been living in the home of his son, Allen Spencer, who had moved down from his Fork Mountain home to a house he had built in Cherry Tree Bottoms, on the Cherry River.( today Richwood, WV area) James was a small man, very energetic, strong, wiry, and very straight. An excellent horseback rider, able to mount and dismount his mule until the week of his death.
James was a great hunter, as was most of the Spencers. When only 14 years old he kept camp on Cherry River for his father and some of his father's friends. Once when the hunters had left him working , he killed a fine deer with his bow and arrow and was busily skinning it when the adult hunters returned emptied handed.

James had a son named Smith, who lived in New Hope( now Fenwick Mountain, WV). James rode his mule the five miles to visit Smith and his family. While there he became ill with a severe intestinal disease called flux and died at the ripe old age of 95 years. He was buried in the school yard of the little one room school house which also served as a church before Macedonia was built about 1895) This building burned and was rebuilt near the home of Lloyd Spencer, a descendant of Smith Spencer.






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Life is a Rainbow made up of Many Different Colors.....

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Linda asked:

Was Joseph Brant in WV at all? Seems too far south, but then I haven't studied that history at all.

Thanks for this info.

Before Virginia became explored and colonised by British and European traders, it was populated by tribes.
By the beginning of the 17th Century, West Virginia was home to such tribes as the Shawnee and the Delaware, as well as the Iroquois Confederacy which was a group of five Iroquois speaking nations ( Mohawk, Oneida, Cayuga and Seneca).
The Iroquois Confederacy was beginning to grow in power and influence.

There was a distinct separation between East and West Virginia due to the nature of the new voting rights in 1776; The right to vote was granted to white males who owned at least 25 or 50 acres of land which seemed to discriminate against the smaller farming communities of the West who farmed small scale crops of less than 25 acres since their family business could not economically justify the use of slaves.The East side farmed crops on a greater due to their large slave population, and therefore had greater chance of having the chance to vote.


If you want to read more:
Some Historical Background to Virginia
http://www.ex.ac.uk/drama/projects/1008_2004/imperialismandtrade/virginia.htm

[naelady]

I don't know how to express that well folks need not hunt tribes , it doesn't help that much after 1700's, it will only confuse the matter and narrow your fields to hunt and find the whole truth. it will never make much sense if you don't know what is really going on. it will do you way better to hunt any and all tribal histories anywhere near and far for records of your family. it was a very much smaller world then to them than it is now .
with tribal histories as they are now it has been forgotten for a reason , and should probably remain such. just be content to say that we or they were all mixed blood by the end of the 1800's especailly all men mentioned as leaders/headmen at that time. what you have heard/and has been passed down is always true, but you will never prove a thing. I hope that helps you to find mosr what you really want to know . which would be what Culture did your family live out , probably is way better question that what blood they had.

[naelady]

Ok girls just to expand your horizons I will give an example of not narrowing your research.

http://www.uwf.edu/english/Panther-Yates/indians.htm
from that site
"""
(3) Carolyn Thomas Foreman, Indians Abroad 1493-1938 (Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1943), 34-39. The five Indians were: (1) Sa Ga Yean Qua Prah Ton, chief of the Maquas (Mohawks), (2) Te Yee Neen Ho Ga Prow (Mohawk), (3) Etow Oh Koam and (4) Oh Nee Yeath Ton No Prow (river sachem), and the unnamed Ganojahhore sachem. Their English names were Hendrick, or Henrick, John, Joseph Brant and Etawa Causne. One of the chiefs died and was buried in England. Two of their portraits became part of the collection of the National Archives of Canada: Etow Oh Koam (c92421) and Sa Ga Yeath Qua Pieth Tow (c92419). """


sounds like /spelled kinda like=
etawa ( Etowah = hightower) causne (chucaucene) is attacullculla you can find this sounding names for him and his sons everywhere . and these are his uncles, brant is probably Bryant in cherokee familes. in some cherokee documents is says "those men who went to england were minor chief's and they amounted to nothing,"
just because they weren't recorded correctly in cherokee histories didn't mean that they were nothing, as what they did do may have never been with the cherokee thus nothing was recorded of them there. lease see in attacullculla's life that he was stole by 6 nations and taken to live with them for about 6 to 8 years in 1740's 1750's were his uncles taken also ? . so what is recorded about them is wrong they did Amount to something , that was wrong !!! you will have to check into the lives of attaculluclla and Ocanstota and and dragging canoe to even get a hint of the expanses of the connections and interactions of the nations in that time frame. these were NEVER minor anythings, they were all greatmen of this nation and without them chances are Realllllly good that the whites would have just run right over , like a freight train , over all of the nations. just like they did to all VA indians. these men wouldn't let them do any more of that .
so don't even narrow your research , the wives or moms of the children these men were most likely women in powerful families in the tribes may have been called a certain tribe, lived in a tribe structure or may not have . but these men lived way outside of normal tribal lines. have fun.
chief =head man , wouldn't a sort of ambassador type role also be a kinda headman/chief? ? have fun

[naelady]

Hi again I just wondered if you noticed

just to add some interest to her work note that
"Ganojahhore sachem" and
"The parents of Joseph Brant were Mohawks whose home was at Canajoharie "
this probably pointing to brant and briant and maybe even any other names like brent are all the same names. as they obviuosly have cherokee ties and way more ties than anyone remembers now anyway..
"of the wolf family and of some standing in the tribe" this might be an interesting , very interesting statement .
Katie pumpkin spencer's mom died in OH during the removal years and my gg grandpa was born there, gg grandma' sister is with 6 nations and are in and out of It OK all the time too , they all move all the time. but lots of my family are all over the place . so don't think so small in terms of place . they were all very MOBILE back then shockingly so. I can't even tell you all of the place my grandpa shoeboots shows up in his long life,
where is Katie pumpkin spencer? daughter of Chahwahyoocah and pumpkin boy a creek indian. renee

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Renee,

I agree that folks back in the early times appear to be able to travel long distances without luxury of roads and auto's more so than we do today. My sister lives in Nebraska and it has been over 20 years since I have seen her.

(documented fact)
My James Spencer according to his War of 1812 pension application was born along the Greenbrier River in a place called "Troat". That would be in West Virginia today but 1784 was considered Augusta Co. Virginia. Identified on that document as "INDIAN 5'8" with dark complection; black hair and eyes"( no tribe mentioned)

(oral history #1)
Says that James father came down from the north and was part of the Onieda tribe. That his name was Thomas Spencer.

(oral history #2)
Says that he is part Cherokee and is related to Pumpkin Boy.

(oral history #3) This came to me in just the past few months
Says that the Spencers were a part of the Seminole Tribe and gives these names and roll numbers: Allen Spencer 11039; Mary C. 14544; John T. 26632; Samuel T. 281370; Nancy J 32011; Gonia V. 32012 These are listed on DawesRolls and Mary # 199 card 168 Seminole with father Yona Spencer and mother Anna # 961

James did have a son named Allen, a Samuel, and daughters Marie and Nancy, however these were common first names for that era.

As you can see I am dealing with one piece of fact and several stories and just trying to sort them out. The fact that he was born on the Greenbrier seems to far north for a Cherokee connection or Seminole. I am not closing my mind that it still might be Cherokee connection. All I am sure of is that James Spencer was Indian.

Also in reading I discovered that Elihu Spencer ( 4 brothers; line of Gerard Spencer of Ct) took an Onieda wife while on Missionary Mission. They had two sons that reached adulthood, Thomas and Henry. Elihu is mentioned several times as knowing and being friends of Joseph Brant. This ties in with oral history #1 that says that James' father was a Thomas Spencer and that he came down from the north. What is really fustrating is when I contacted a couple of the Gerard Spencer researchers they will not admit that his Elihu had anything but an English white wife. One researcher did tell me that it wouldn't suprise him but Iwould never get any of the Spencer's to admit to it. Like you said....I know the Indian blood is there and that is all that counts...........:)

[naelady]

hum well some interesting notes would be . first like I said the family was outside of normal native tribal lines . I don't know just how to express it any differntly without using terms that are just too white, like ambassadors and dukes and such, even more white thought-ish like a royality kinda of concept. they called attacullaculla little carpenter for a reason , they knew he was building something, they knew he had superior abilities . and why is it that 6nations were put under the cherokee agency in OK. good questions that need answers ;-)) and things that have been forgotten for a season . just because of one line in the white man laws that says something along the lines of ( independant seperate nations and identiries ) iot all had to be forgotten for a reason you know. das but true.
+ we have to remember that what they were then may be diffent than what they are now, what they were called then diffeent than what by concensues may call them now . meaning that after Migration they became Seminols or made up what is now called seminols, creeks or whatever.
look into the history of the seminols what was that about the river cult? on just a gut hunch
what is cana..... water shechem mean ? do these tie together somehow? just a few observations that need some answers ;-) hum well I would read all there is to read about known cherokee spencers and all 6 nations spencers the truth will all be found locked in their family connections and who moved around with that family would be most likely other family . have fun hope that helps .

[techteach]

Brenda:
I have been reading Alan Eckert's books. I just finished one that features Joseph Brant as a main character. I am fairly certain that I remember a Thomas Spencer being mentioned as an Oneida who was making a living as a blacksmith and warned of the attack on Cherry Valley. I will try to check which one it is. My kids are home this weekend and I am doing grades, but I will check which it is as soon as I can.

Cindy

PS: These oral histories, if shared, may help others. I keep looking for my William Sinkey as a 6 nation Ranger and I see Spencers on lists in the same area. I will have to check the names with yours.

[techteach]

Brenda:
I found the book while cleaning for company. It is Wilderness War by Alan Eckert. It discusses Thomas Spencer several times. In essence, he spied for the Americans and was killed at Oriskany, if Eckert is correct. According to the book, he was an Oneida chief who lived among the whites and earned a living as a blacksmith.

Cindy

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Cindy,

Yes, I have not read all of Erckert's books but have been sent some of the passages out of them. The Thomas Spencer you are talking about is the son of Elihu Spencer and his Onieda wife. He also had a brother named Henry Spencer. They did grow to adulthood and marry so it is possible they left descendants. I have tried to find out what if any thse descendants were.

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/oneida/page8.html

This Thomas was born 1749 at Onoquaga; died
August 6, 1777 at Battle of Oriskany I but not on list of those killed; I don't know if it was because Henry and Thomas were Indians or what????

Elihu Spencer was a missionary among the Onieda for several years before he married his English white wife. He was the son of Issac Spencer who was the son of Samuel Spencer who was son of Gerard Spencer ( of four brothers )Elihu was also a chaplin at the time of the French and Indian War.

My #1 oral history says that James father was a Thomas and that he came over the mountain to settle along the Greenbrier. Glenn Spencer is the eldest living Spencer I know and he says that all the Spencers of Nicholas and Greenbrier County, West Virginia can trace their line back to Gerard Spencer, one of the four brothers that came to New England and settled in Conn. Glenn is in his 90's but is as sharp as a tack. I really thought I had the mystery solved but then a distant cousin from another branch threw this #3 oral history in and said he has the roll numbers to prove it. I have my doubts they are the same family of Spencers but I could be wrong. I still say I am 100% hillbilly. :)

[wvaram]

Brenda, I went to the Historical Society today here in Greenbrier county. I found a book titled the Spencer Family. It talked about James Spencer. I well send you some information that I had copied from it. Also while I was there I looked at the Daughters of the American Revelution Book. I looked up James McDaniel. There were about 4 of them. There was only 1 listed B.1755/6 in Virginia. D.1847 in Ohio. He was married to Rebecca Lewis. His rank was listed as OrDl Sgt.