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vance hawkins
09-07-2005, 11:23 AM
http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/maps/1600s/1685newamsterdam3200.jpg

Old 1685 Dutch map with E Md and De called "Tuckwoghs".

Is this "Tuckahoe"?

Vance

techteach
09-07-2005, 04:37 PM
Vance,

I can's answer your question, but I found this : http://www.ccmagazine.org/features/smith.htm


Techteach

techteach
09-07-2005, 05:06 PM
Vance,

Now look at this site : http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~wldciv/world_civ_reader/world_civ_reader_2/john_smith.html The implication here is that the Tuckwoghs did not speak the language of the Powhatan (Wasn't that Algonquin?) nor the language of the Susquehannocs (Wasn't that Iroquois?)

Perhaps dialects made it difficult, but isn't this interesting?

Techteach

Linda
09-07-2005, 08:55 PM
It is interesting. I still suspiscion it's a variant of Tutelo. It's quite possible that the second t was a more gutteral sound, and the l was more an r sound, causing lots of confusion in the way English speakers mangled it.

vance hawkins
09-08-2005, 06:51 AM
Thanks Cindy,

What you found says the Tuckwogh were traditional enemies of the Susquehanna.

What I read about the term "Tuckahoe" is that the term was used to describe the people from "Tidewater" Virginia. Not being a Virginian, I have to guess as to the meaning of "tidewater", but I'd guess it would mean those from the shoreline. Wouldn't that suggest those from closer to the Chesapeake Bay and Maryland?

Knowing more about how Maryland was settled and her early history might help.

Linda,

Your idea might explain the "Blackfoot" Indians on the Maryland/Delaware border or near Conoy Town. "Blackfoot" Town, Maryland (Dagsboro) may have been there a long time.

Maybe there are early day Dutch records stored away somewhere. The Dutch used the term "Tuckwogh" on that early map. Smith might have been using the Dutch term. Does anyone speak 17th century Dutch? :)

vance

vance hawkins
09-08-2005, 04:20 PM
Maryland -- Tuck - wogh
Maryland -- Tot - ra
Virginia -- Tucka - ho
Virginia -- Tuta - lo

????

saj
09-09-2005, 04:25 PM
Ran across this...


Volume 62 No. 1 March 1992 Order Form


Susquehannock Trade Northward to New France
Prior to A.D. 1608: A Popular Misconception

James F. Pendergast

ABSTRACT

First-hand accounts of John Smith's encounter with the
Susquehannock Iroquoians and the Tockwogh band of the
Nanticoke Algonquians at the head of Chesapeake Bay in
July 1608 are contrasted with an erroneous conclusion long
proffered by American, British, and Canadian scholars,
commencing as early as 1747 who would have the Susque-
hannocks trading for European goods with the French on
the St. Lawrence River and in the Strait of Belie Isle.

saj
09-09-2005, 04:27 PM
Came from this site:
http://www.pennsylvaniaarchaeology.com/Publications/Abstracts.html
Sue J

vance hawkins
09-09-2005, 05:13 PM
Thanks! It would be interesting to see his sources.

Susquehanna could have still traded with the French, tho.

But the reference to the Tuckwogh as a band of Nanticoke was very interesting. I only found a few references to the Totra, none wee outside of Maryland.

vance

Linda
09-14-2005, 08:38 PM
There's that reference to the Toterro River, now called the Big Sandy, in Brenda Sampson's neck of the woods. It was on an early map. I wrote about it on another thread. Was his name Briceland? The UVA professor who wrote "Into the Wilderness" I think the name was. (Then again that could be the name of one of the two romance novels I've ever read, haha.) He figured out that the route of the present Norfolk and Southern Railroad is the same as the old Indian path that was a Piedmont Siouan thoroughfare from Richmond to the Big Sandy, crossing over into Kentucky and Ohio thereabouts.

Linda
09-14-2005, 08:43 PM
Look for an excellent post by PappyDick towards the bottom of this page:

http://www.saponitown.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=178&perpage=15&highlight=briceland&pagenumber=2

It's "Westward from Virginia," by Briceland, who's a professor at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond.

Linda
09-14-2005, 08:49 PM
Here's the post where I reported on Briceland's observations about the path from Richmond to the Big Sandy:

http://www.saponitown.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=907&highlight=norfolk+and+southern

saj
09-15-2005, 08:32 AM
Here's a link to the Norfolk and Southern Railroad...I clicked on the second link there on the map..pretty detailed...
Sue J
http://www.norfolksouthernhs.org/history.html

Lee Harkrader
09-15-2005, 10:04 AM
Totero Town know Radford Va this is were i live been here all
my life the railroad follows the New River through here into
West Va. my Damron 's were in Mingo and Wayne Co. Wv. has
well has Floyd Co KY on the Big Sandy River and alot of them
still live there just had the annual Damron reuion in Wayne Co
WV.

Lee

vance hawkins
09-15-2005, 06:35 PM
Lee, I have an ancestor born in Albamarle Co., Va in 1745 -- Joseph Wood/Woods. He married Mary Hamilton in 1768 and they moved to Rockbridge County within a year. I don't know who Joseph or Mary's parents were.

Altho I can't trace my ancestors to the Monacan, 2 of their surnames are Hamilton and Woods, and they are in Rockbridge County.

vance

wvaram
09-28-2005, 10:33 AM
I found a book in my local library that mentions the Tuckwoghs. The title of it is


The Conquest of Virginia
The Forest Primeval


An account, Based on original Documents, of the
Indians in that portion of the Continent
in which was established the first
English Colony in America.

By

Conway Whittle Sams, B.L.


Published by G.P.Putnam"s Sons
New York and London
The Knickerbocket Press
1916

It mentions many tribes in Virginia but I'll just cover the Tuckwoghs. Page 269. The extent of Powhatan"s dominions is thus defined by Starchey:

" The greatness and bounds of whose empire, by reason of his powerfulness and ambition in his youth, hath larger limits than ever had any of his predecessors in former times, for he seems to command south and north from the Man-go-a-ges and Chaw-o-noaks bordering upon Roanoke, and the Old Virginia, to Tock-wogh, a town palisadoed, standing at the north end of the bay,( speaking of the Chesapeake Bay) in fourty degress or thereabouts:southwest to An-0-eg, whose houses are built as ours, ten days distant from us, from whence those Wer-o-ances sent unto him of their commodities; as We i-nock a servant, in whom Powhatan reposed much trust, would tell our elder planters and could repeat many words of their language he had learned among them in his employment thither for his king, and whence he often returned, full of presents, to powhatan; west to Mon-a-has-sa-nugh, which stands at the foot of the mountains( blue ridge) norwest to the borders of Mas-sa-wo-meck and boc-oo-taw-won-ough, his enemies; nor-east and by east to Ac-co-ha-nock, ac-cow-mack, and some other petty nations, lying on the east side of our bay.

page 371, The mas-sa-wo-mecks. Starchey thus describes this tribe:
: Beyond the mountains, from whence is the head of the river Patomac, do inhabit the Mas-sa-wo-mecks ( Powhatan"s yet mortal enemies) upon a great salt water, which by all likelihood may either be some part of Canada, some great lake, or some inlet of some sea, that may fall into the west ocean or Mar del sur. These Mas-sa-wo-mecks are a great nation, and very populous, for the inhabitants of the heads of all those rivers, especially the Pa-taw-o-mecks, the Paw-tux-unts, the Sas-ques-a-han-oughes, the Tock-woghs, are continually harbored and frightened by them, of whose cruelty the said people generally complained, and were very importunate with Captain Smith, and his company, in the time of their discovery, to free them from those tormentors, to which purpose they offered food, conduct, assistants, and continual subjection, which were motives sufficient for Captain Smith to promise to return with sufficient forces to constrain the said Mas-sa-wo-mecks; but there were in the Colony at that time such factions and base envies, as malice in some, in some cases ignorance, and cowardice in others, made that opportunity to be lost.

further down on this page it states that toward the North the Tock- woghes, who lived in a strongly fortified town, on a river of that name, now called the Chester, and the At-quan-a-chuks, who lived in Deleware.

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
09-30-2005, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Lee Harkrader
Totero Town know Radford Va this is were i live been here all
my life the railroad follows the New River through here into
West Va. my Damron 's were in Mingo and Wayne Co. Wv. has
well has Floyd Co KY on the Big Sandy River and alot of them
still live there just had the annual Damron reuion in Wayne Co
WV.

Lee

Hello, Lee,

My folks are all from the area of old Logan, now Mingo County, WV along the Tug River and I've heard ad seen the name Damron a lot while looking for my own lines of Steele/Hatfield/Maynard-Manor/Shortridge/Vance/Moore/Mounts/Chafin/Ferrell/Francisco/
Duty/Hall/White/Runyan/Varney. etc. I don't recall a Damron in my direct line, but if your people were in that area, then we have to be related somewhere along the line somehow!

My Great- Grandfather Thomas Moore lived at Devon, mouth of Beech Creek, and worked for N & W Railroad at Thacker nearby. He died in 1925. I know he was born in KY, but have had no luck tracing his family at all. My Grandpa Harrison Steele of Beech Creek worked at the Thacker Station for awhile as a young man. Grandpa Harry was the one who carried the family stories of Blackfoot and Cherokee ancestors. The Steeles came into Logan County from Tazewell and Russell early on. My paternal line, Ferrell, were among the first in the area--Matewan is old Ferrelltown-as was David Mounts and Peter Cline on Grandpa Harry's side. I have been curious about Radford and the New River area and the families that came into Logan from that location. I would someday like to nail down the ancestors of David Mounts. He married Peggy Cline, Peter's daughter, in 1809 near there and James Addair, in the area by 1773, operated a feerry near Radford. This Addair family has an oral tradition of Indian ancestry, too.

Nice to meet you!

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel
09-30-2005, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Linda
It is interesting. I still suspiscion it's a variant of Tutelo. It's quite possible that the second t was a more gutteral sound, and the l was more an r sound, causing lots of confusion in the way English speakers mangled it.

Could be.... I'm getting the idea that there isn't a lot of firm info. about the Tockwoghs...Johnston's HISTORY OF CECIL COUNTY mentions them briefly since they were in that area. He classifyes the Massawomekes as probably Iroquioan and related somehow to the competing Susquehannocks, misclassifies the Minquas as a subdivison of the Leni Lenape, and says of the Tockwoghs, "...of a more gentle desposition probably belonged to the Algonquin or Muscogee stock." Sounds to me like no one really knew when he wrote his book in 1881..... Were the Muscogee all from the south??? The Tockwoghs Fort is said to be a few miles above the mouth of Sassafrass River.

The Big Sandy/ Tug River was also known as the Shaterras, Chatteroy, etc., other variants of Totteroy, Tutelo, I think...

Brenda

cowboy
03-20-2006, 12:53 PM
Brenda
I am sorry i did not answer you back on this post it is indeed
good to meet you my 4th grandfather Lazarus Damron had two
sister who married Maynards.

And looking at your surnames the Damrons are related one way
or the other with them Lazarus is buried in Wayne Co around
1820.

Also the Damrons hold there yearly reunion in the Cabwaylingo
State Forest Wayne Co WV which is a week long event and
most of these surnames do attend this reunion it is held in
August so if you are out that way do drop by.

Lee

wvaram
03-20-2006, 10:45 PM
I was just reading were Tuckahoe was originally spelled Tockawhougha. Not a far stretch from Tockwoghs.

tymeto49
01-29-2008, 06:14 PM
Hello, Lee,

My folks are all from the area of old Logan, now Mingo County, WV along the Tug River and I've heard ad seen the name Damron a lot while looking for my own lines of Steele/Hatfield/Maynard-Manor/Shortridge/Vance/Moore/Mounts/Chafin/Ferrell/Francisco/
Duty/Hall/White/Runyan/Varney. etc. I don't recall a Damron in my direct line, but if your people were in that area, then we have to be related somewhere along the line somehow!

My Great- Grandfather Thomas Moore lived at Devon, mouth of Beech Creek, and worked for N & W Railroad at Thacker nearby. He died in 1925. I know he was born in KY, but have had no luck tracing his family at all. My Grandpa Harrison Steele of Beech Creek worked at the Thacker Station for awhile as a young man. Grandpa Harry was the one who carried the family stories of Blackfoot and Cherokee ancestors. The Steeles came into Logan County from Tazewell and Russell early on. My paternal line, Ferrell, were among the first in the area--Matewan is old Ferrelltown-as was David Mounts and Peter Cline on Grandpa Harry's side. I have been curious about Radford and the New River area and the families that came into Logan from that location. I would someday like to nail down the ancestors of David Mounts. He married Peggy Cline, Peter's daughter, in 1809 near there and James Addair, in the area by 1773, operated a feerry near Radford. This Addair family has an oral tradition of Indian ancestry, too.

Nice to meet you!


I have a David Cecil Mounts b: 1785 Montgomery, VA, d: 1852 Logan, WVA who married Margaret "Peggy" Cline b: 1794 Montgomery, VA d: 1880 Logan, WVA
daughter of Peter Cline (b: 1756, Germany d:1840 Mingo, WVA) and Elizabeth "Lizzy" Riffe (b: 1750 Montgomery, VA d:1840, Mingo, WVA)

Children of David Cecil Mounts and Peggy Cline are:
Elijah 1809-1890
Charles 1810-
Jane 1819-
Michael 1820-1879
Nancy 1820-
Peter C 1821-
Edna 1823-
Alexander 1824-
Jackson 1826-
Elizabeth 1829-1922
Martha 1830-
Sarah Sally 1832-1876

Parents I have for David Cecil Mounts are John Lawrence Mounts b: 1749, VA and Elizabeth Raincrow b: 1767?


I am related to David Cecil Mounts by his son, Charles who married Mary Ann Spratt; he is my 5th great grandfather.

Linda
02-01-2008, 09:52 PM
What happened to Johnny Hedgepeth?

tymeto49
02-01-2008, 10:17 PM
He was killed in a car crash =(