Blackfoot Indians

[tommy_tsunami]

Boy, I hate to continue being the stirrer of the pot, but I've been doing some major research the past few days on Blackfoot Indians, and this is the only site I've found that claims they ever lived in the SE (VA, NC, etc.).

I've read dozens of posts in Saponitown where people claim Blackfoot ancestry. Again, from what I've read, it all seems to be from oral history, "I heard my grandmother say her great grandmother was Blackfoot", and so on.

Form everything I've read, the Blackfeet lived in the central/midwest/west part of the US up to the central/midwest/west areas of Canada. In fact, there are even sites that point to the Saponitown forum as being the instigators of this "theory".

http://www.native-languages.org/iaq18.htm
http://members.aol.com/angelaw859/tri_racials.html

This doesn't include the dozens of sites I looked up the clearly state Blackfoot Indians never lived anywhere near the SE. Only one resource I found even hinted that some Blackfoot Indians may have lived in the east when the Europeans landed, but immediately went west. Of course, we'll never know that or not.

It seems a bit odd that there are so many "theories" on this site with so little solid research and evidence behind them. For a genealogist, it's actually quite sad, as there are so many resources out there to help us all understand the true background and history of all of us on this site and of Americans in general. I think, unfortunately, it's more popular to believe in exciting, flashy or mysterious stories of made up people or histories. It's also easier to believe what you hear than to actually take the time and effort needed to find the truth and facts.

Please understand that anything I say on this site is placed here to get people both thinking and SEARCHING, not to start arguments, hurt feelings or point fingers. It's just that as a person who's put 17 years into dedicated historical research, it's hard to sit back and read stories that really have no historical basis in fact.

More reading:
http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/naind/html/na_004300_blackfoot.htm
http://www.pbs.org/lewisandclark/native/idx_bla.html


Tommy

[mrspatino]

what happened to the Australians?;)
LOl hahah no yea I know there is nothing written, however thats where the (and I know u r not a big fan of this buuut) Lakota/Sioux/Blackfoot believe we are their relation and that it is evident in our language.:p

[tommy_tsunami]

There are commonalities with many native languages, even those that may be hundreds of miles or thousands of miles away. Remember, all Natives came from Asia and moved southward from what is now Alaska all the way down to the tip of South America. It's likely that Indians in the Andes and Amazon have linguistic similarities to the Arapaho here in Colorado.

:cool:

Anyhoo, I'm just putting some ideas out there. No one has to take what I say as the authority :D

[mrspatino]

You know what I take that back I dont know if anything was written, I retract
:D

[tommy_tsunami]

Oh Christina, I just read your post closer.

Lakotas and Sioux are the EXACT same thing. There are different bands or groups (like the Mdewakatons in Minnesota), but they are all Lakota. Sioux is simple what the French called them. It's no different than the Odawa/Ottawa. Same people, different name or pronounciation. Thus, their language (Sioux/Lakota) is the same.

Now, take the fact that the Blackfoot did live in the same area of the country as the Lakota, and that answers the question why they have similar languages. Yes?? ;)

[mrspatino]

ok so where did our language come from? arent you um up kind of late to be starting trouble lol syke
And if u tell me Vikings I will fly out there and punch you lol

Oh re second Post: are you talking about the land bridge? :rolleyes:

[techteach]

Christina,
Thank you for your response here.

Tommy, this is directed to you:
You know, I usually do not get involved in heated discussions on this forum nor do I intend to continue this discussion beyond what I post here, which will be a long posting, a quotation that come from a family member who worked on my family's genealogical research. Let me first begin by saying that my ggggrandmother was Blackfoot from Pennsylvania and that is why I am here in this forum.
First of all, before I paste the family quote I plan to paste, let me state that the Carlisle Indian school is documented as beginning in 1879 (http://home.epix.net/~landis/histry.html). You will see from the quote why I make this statement.

Here is the family quote, "THE MORMAN CHURCH RECORDS SHOW OUR GREAT GREAT GRANDMOTHER, NANCY AGNES MCLANE, AS SHAWNEE. BORN 1809, BEVER CO. PA. THIS I AM POSITIVE IS IN-ACCURATE INFO. FIRST, THE BIRTH DATE IS 5 YEARS YOUNGER THAN THE OBITUARY AND FUNERAL HOME RECORDS SHOW. SECOND THEY ASSUM SHE WAS SHAWNEE BECAUSE SHE WAS BORN IN SHAWNEE TERITORY. THEY DID NOT TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THAT OUR GOVERNMENT WAS TAKING ALL INDIAN CHILDREN AWAY FROM THEIR PARENT AND SENDING THEM HUNDREDS OF MILES AWAY TO INDIAN SCHOOLS. CARLIER INDIAN SCHOOL IN PA. WAS ONE OF THEM. NANCY'S PAENTS, OR NANCY HERSELF COULD HAVE BEEN SENT TO THIS SCHOOL. I HAVE FOUND ALL TO OFTEN, GENEALOGISTS DO NOT GET THE FACTS AND DATES CORRECT. OFTEN MAKING PRESUMPTIONS WITHOUT GETTING THE TRUE FACTS. WITH OUR OWN GRANDPARENTS, I'VE FOUND WRONG DATES AND MISSPELLED NAMES. I'VE COME TO BELIEVE THE ONLY TRUE RECORD IN THIS MATTER IS THE ORAL RECORD PASSED DOWN BY OUR GRANDFATHER, WILLIAM ALFRED RALSTON. HE TOLD HIS SON, HAROLD E, WHEN HE WAS STILL YOUNG THAT HIS (WILLIAMS) GRANDMOTHER NANCY WAS BLACKFOOT INDIAN. YEARS LATER WILLIAM ALSO MADE THIS SAME STATEMENT TO HIS GRANDSON, IVAN E RALSTON. MY FATHER, HDROLD AND MY BROTHER IVAN REPEATED THIS INFO TO ME, ALFRED H RALSTON. GRANDPA GREW UP NEAR WHERE HIS GRANDPARENTS, JOHN AND NANCY FARMED. WILLIAMS GRANDFATHER DIED ONE YEAR BEFORE HE WAS BORN, BUT HIS GRANDMOTHER NANCY LIVED ANOTHER 32 YEARS. WILIAM ALSO FARMED IN THIS SAME AREA OF JACKSON CO FOR APPROXAMATELY 16 YEARS. HE SURELY KNEW HIS GRANDMOTHER NANCY WELL. MY MOTHER, ETTA, RECALLED A CONVERSATION SHE HAD WITH GRANDPA RALSTON THAT TOOK PLACE NOT LONG AFTER SHE AND DAD (HAROLD) HAD MARRIED. SHE AND GRANDPA RALSTON WERE TRYING TO DETERMINE WHAT PERCENTAGE INDIAN OUR DAD (HAROLD) WAS. WITH THE HELP OF ONE OF THE CEMETARY DIRECTORS OF HICKERY GROVE CEMETARY, WE FOUND WHERE OUR GRT, GRT,GRANDMOTHER NANCY IS BURIED. HER NAME IS NOT ON ANY STONE MARKER, NOT EVEN ON HER HUSBAND JOHNS. HER MARKER WAS JUST A SMALL LIMESTONE ONE THAT ONLY HAD ONE WORD, MOTHER, ON THE TOP EDGE OF IT. IT WAS LEANING, NEARLY READY TO FALL OVER. I HAVE ENCOUNTERED SEVERAL DISTANT RELATIVES THAT HAD HEARD OF AN INDIAN ANCESTOR BUT HAD NO IDEA OF WHO SHE MIGHT BE. I HAVE FELT IT NESSARY TO GET THESE FACTS IN WRITING BEFORE THEY ARE LOST ALLTOGETHER. I ALSO HAD A HEADSTONE MARKER MADE THAT GIVE GRT,GRT, GRANDMOTHER NANCY THE RECOGNITION THAT SHE DESERVES. IT SETS THE RECORD STRAIGHT ABOUT HER. BURIAL RECORDS AND NEWSPAPER RECORDS SHOW GRT GRT GRANDMOTHER NANCY AS: BORN 1814 BEVER CO PA.DIED 1905, JACKSON CO IA. BURIED HICKORY GROVE CEMETARY, JACKSON CO. IA. HER OLDEST SON MELLON WAS 1/2 BLACKFOOT INDIAN. MELLONS 6TH CHILD WAS OUR GRANDFATHER,WILLIAM ALFRED 1/4 BLACKFOOT, WM'S. CHILDREN 1/8. AND ALL THEIR CHILDREN 1/16. LIFE WAS VERY HARD IN NANCY'S DAY AND TIME. EVERYONE WAS STRUGGLING TO MAKE A LIVING AND JUST STAYING ALIVE. AT THIS TIME IN HISTORY, MANY PEOPLE CONSIDERED BEING INDIAN OR PART INDIAN AS DEGRADING. IT PROBABLY NEVER OCCURED TO NANCY THAT SOME DAY, IN TIME TO COME, SOME OF HER FUTURE OFFSPRING WOULD WANT TO KNOW ABOUT HER. NO RECORDS WERE KEPT TO SPEAK OF. SHE DIED IN OR NEAR MONMOUTH, IOWA. WITH WHOM SHE WAS LIVING AFTER HER HUSBAND DIED, I HAVE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO FIND OUT. SHE RAISED TWO STEP CHILDREN, FROM JOHNS FIRST MARRIAGE, BESIDES HER OWN 10. SHE HAD TO HAVE BEEN ONE BUSY LADY TO CONTEND WITH THE SCOTCH/IRISH/AND INDIAN RALSTONS. MAY SHE REST IN PEACE. I MYSELF COULD NEVER GET GRANDPA RALSTON TO TALK ABOUT OUR ANCESTORS. HIS ONLY COMMENT WAS, "THEY WERE NOTHING BUT HORSE THIEVES AND KILLERS, YOU DONT WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THEM". SOME WERE, -----MOST WERE NOT. GRT GRT GRANDMOTHER NANCY'S HEADSTONE READS: RALSTON NANCY AGNES MCLANE NATIVE AMERICAN --- BLACKFOOT BORN 1814 BEVER CO. PA. DIED 1905 JACKSON CO. IA. WIFE OFJOHN RALSTON MAY OUR CREATOR KEEP YOUR SPIRIT IN PEACE
BY ALFRED H RALSTON GRT GRT GRANDSON OF NANCY AGNES MCLANE"

Please take note of Nancy's birthdate. She could not have been a Carlisle student. And take note of her death date. She lived long enough for people to have heard her make the statement that she was Blackfoot. She came to Iowa in 1852 and settled among other mixed peoples already there. I might add that she came in a group of Ralston brothers. Both married Indian women from Pennsylvania. Both called themselves Blackfoot.



Techteach

[techteach]

I came back to add that the use of all capitals in my previous posting's quotation were simply because it was posted this way on genforum, and I copied and pasted.

Techteach

[tommy_tsunami]

Christina: The land bridge is a theory that I don't necessarily believe in. The people could have just as easy come over on a boat (small canoes, boats, whatever). Just like the Hawaiian and other pacific islands. Those people didn't grow there from seeds! They got there by watercrafts of some sort.

Are you saying that native Americans are not Asian in descent? Just wondering.:p

[mrspatino]

I thought taking a look at this sight might shed a little light, on your question, http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/tribes/siouan/siouanfamilyhist.htm

Siouan Family is HUUUge
Check it out homey oh, and I think I figured out why Anishenabe think we are theirs, According to some circles and National Geographic Blackfoot people were in the plains but way north and they are and were Algonquian language family buuut I saw some where they spent a period of time amongst tribes that did not speak their language, OK ok

Oh and you really need to check out the September 2004 National Geographic, it has a nice map of the indegeous languages of this coninent, it is just nice to have as a refrence,

We are no doubt part of the Lakota/Teton people but we are strangely seperated by great distance, but strange doesnt explain anything. But the way I look at it is that there was clearley a strong relationship between us and the Algonquins.

[mrspatino]

Oh your hillarious with your Asian land bridge, I am reeeealy buying that Mr. Edward James Almos?:D

[Tom]

Hey Everyone!
Well the land bridge theory works for eskimo's but maybe not for the Yanomamo!
Personally I believe that our ancestors were always here! the "they came from somewhere else" really is very ignorant, the most blatant method for debasing everyone.
The families on this forum with the identity of Blackfoot all go back to a very small geographic area! rather not just a coincidence! based on records and occasionally oral history, and speaking of oral history etc I have found one Siouan word amogst my family, several patterns and a rich oral tradition, all are apart of our history.
As for written records ,what have you read in the news papers lately that was unbiased?
Paper is not not steele or our oral history!
Our history is the voice of our ancestors!

[mrspatino]

Tommy is Unique,
I think, i dont want to assume but he has a very different approach to this, he needs paper proof, so we dig it up, we know there is and he just hasnt found it yet.

And lets just put this in there for good measure, WE were part of a masss GENOCIDE, some of the answers are just lost. T is going on this from a scholarly, fact finding view, not a spiritual route like many of us showin up here (Me) for instantce, which led to the genealogy research.

Peace and love peeps

:cool:

[tommy_tsunami]

Well Tom, your idea of the Indians always being here needs two things to have taken place, both of which fly in the face of all scientific or religious beliefs.

1. If you believe in God and creation, you idea is impossible. The Bible clearly states that God created people in what is now the middle east. It also talks of a flood that destoyed all people except the 8 people that were on on the Ark. From there, all people left Mt. Ararat in present day Turkey and became the peoples from all over the earth. People that became the Asian/Mongolian race would have eventually ended up in what is present day Alaska, Canada, US, Mexico, Central America and South America. That's if you believe in God and his version of the history of humankind through the pages of the Bible.

2. Now if you don't believe that, but believe in evolution, your theory is still incorrect, based on what all science has found. Again, they trace all life to what is present day North Africa or the Middle East. From there, they believe all humans migrated to Europe, Asia and then on to the "new world" or what is the present day Western Hemisphere.

What you are proposing, I suppose, is that evolution was happening all over the earth at the same time? That maybe apes/chimps were turning into man at the EXACT same time in all continents of the earth that had the weather capable of supporting human life, AND that these humanoids developed on different continents at the SAME time and that they all genetically developed to the same point that they could SOME DAY all meet up and interbreed. All of those things would have HAD to happen at the same time in order for you theory to hold water.

As you said, "Personally I believe that our ancestors were always here! the "they came from somewhere else" really is very ignorant". Again, if believing that present day "Indians" of the Western Hemisphere came from Asia, where they are almost perfect genetic matches, I would hate to try to come up with a word to describe your theory of them always being here. To reiterate, they would have had to be:
1. Dropped off by space aliens
2. Evolved from monkeys and other animals at the same time other monkeys were developing into humans in Europe, Asia, the middle east, Africa, Australia, etc. (which I believe makes NO sense, which is why I don't believe in evolution either)
3. Maybe God made Adam and Eve, then he made all other races on the earth and dropped them off where they live now and decided not to write any of that down in the Bible and lie to us about everything else.

Well, there ya go! I know none of what I wrote will make any difference, because by reading your posts, I can see that the "spiritual" side of history (believing whatever feels best) is what is most important. Facts simply clutter things up and when they are not cool or popular, there's no sense in listening to them.

By the way, my people were actually Apaches. They got lost when making a long trip eastward from Arizona and ended up intermarrying with the English, Jews, Phoenicians, and Portuguese that were in NC.

:D

[mrspatino]

I have number 4.!

Seriously though, I do know that the Mexica's creation story, which I guess would actually be the Toltec and Olmec, that The Tree Of Life created Woman and Man, Oh and the tree still exists in Mexico, one of Juans books has a picture of it, not a drawing a real picture. So this could lead to where we came from on this continent. Geesh and dont be soo moody:D Breath in and Breath ooouuuut Open mind, Open mInd close your eyes say it with me:D

[mrspatino]

Oh, Bible ref briefly um The Tower of Babylon, hold up let me get my bible, AHHHH yes Tower of Babel, Genesis; chap 11 read on my people.

Sorry I have alot of interests: Camping, parasaling, long walks on the beach, and the Bible:D

[tommy_tsunami]

Yes, I'm extremely familiar with the Tower of Babel account about building the tower and then God confusing the languages as a punishment. The tower build was initiated by Nimrod, the grandson of Noah. After the languages were confused, the people began migrating to all areas of the earth, which again follows along with actual migration patterns that have been studied ad nauseum.

Actually, this last thread and all the nonsense associated with it has helped me decide that this forum is not the place for me. "Searching for Saponi Town" led me to believe this would be a place for people with ties to the Piedmont and Virginia Native Americans, specifically Saponi-Tutelo, to talk, share research, and to try to "connect the dots" between people who have actual ancestors from Brunswick, Southampton, Hertford and other counties where our ancestors once (and still) lived.

However, this is more like the "theory of the day" club to discuss anything and everything, whether it makes sense or just "feels good".

I am too much of a "scholar" as you put it (nicely, I know Christina - you are my homegirl you know :D ). But I enjoy actually researching and discussing history too much to just sit and battle about theories and good stories.

This will be my last post everyone. It was fun while it lasted.

Tom

[Tom]

Sorry to see you go, you just have to pick a side and present it, you did and thank you.
Iam not a missionary and I don't want everyone to see the world the way I do, I don't believe in the Bible , I have nothing in common with those desert people, Iam not an ape, I just believe that we have always been here, kinda like some of the oldest stone ever found is in the Blue ridge Mountains.
Did the Siberians leave North America we don't know yet!
The 2 theories you present are great for Christians and scientist's but not for everyone, kinda the flavor of the century!
You should read some of Vine Deloria's books might help you see what Iam saying.
Signed
Born Again Heathen

[mrspatino]

Look at your Hotmail.

Ok I see what your saying about the theory of the day, but you know there is some compelling information here, you dont have to buy into everything, but there many avenues in attempting to understand what happend to the Saponi/Saponi Town, yes some avenues might be a little far fetched, but I think you can see that people want to share their documentation with you, their documentation is different than yours, and there is no reason on this topic for people to get irritated, no one should be deffensive because, we all have different experiences leading to one mystery. We have to take all things into account, except I can do with out the whole Viking thing myself.

[saj]

You've been doing major research on the Blackfoot the past few days????????????
What the heck?
I don't even know how to say what I am thinking. But some of us here have been researching for longer than some have been alive...anyway, hate to say what my hubby would have to say who has taught for 33 years now. And the Bible? Don't even get started on that one...I don't think anyone could be more "scholarly" on that subject. What I am the least impressed with is when someone asks me a direct question about ME and cannot find the time to respond to it.
GOOD GRIEF CHARLIE BROWN.
Sue J
P.S. This sure will not be my last post.

[saj]

Oh, and Tom,
I should have supported you more.
I don't believe in the Bible either even though I'm climbing out on a large rickety branch to say so.
But no, I can't except that one.
Mother Earth, her beauty and power, yes.
OH Well.
Each to his or her own. I guess.
Sue J

[Brenda Ferrell Sampsel]

Well, it has been many years it seems since Linda and I, along with Karen P., first shared our grand parents stories about Blackfoot ancestors on the Mingo language list. Almost everywhere we looked we found others with similar backgrounds and stories.
I am very grateful that Linda has created this forum as a repository for information and as a place for sharing research. There are so many stored threads I am sure I will not get to them all for a long time. I also appreciate all the research she and others have done and shared. I appreciate a place where those of us with Eastern Blackfoot traditions can come to discover and research the patterns that may lead us to some answers about the paths our ancestors walked. There is so much here to pick through and ponder. The recent Berkley Co. locations were intriguing, as others have been.,,,
Linda is a dynamo. I have wondered about the Eastern Blackfoot since I was a little girl, but I would have never taken the bull by the horns and created this special place as Linda has done. I am a grateful guest. Thanks to Linda and all the moderators and participants.

I also thank my grandfather from "Bloody Mingo" WV who shared his past with me and I respect what he has told me, and that he taught me manners, and taught me to fear no man-- only the wind.

[techteach]

That sounds like a good-bye, Brenda. I hope not.
I too am grateful for the chance to explore a past that I only found out about 3 years ago.

Techteach

[Brenda Ferrell Sampsel]

Oh, no, no. Not a good-bye. I may get lost in the woods for awhile, sometimes a long while, but I'll always meander back. I just think it is important to state that, even as a "member", I am a guest here of others' caring and hospitality, as we all are in a way, and I hope to remember that and behave accordingly. That includes saying that I am grateful ---even though I probably shouldn't get hooked on responding to someone's flaming bad manners. [This thread started off with an attitude.]

[mrspatino]

You know what, I left this board yesterday with a very heavy heart, I know that Tommy made some people mad but he has not been doing this research a few days but more like 13 years oh and he was a genealogy teacher, he has had personal dialog with Auntie Linda and concretely has Saponi blood running in him and he proved it, in other posts and was welcomed back. Just becuase I write a bible refrences, does not me I thump, it's just an interest, and I do try to live by it, I never made any refrence that if you do not follow the bible anyone is a Heathen-re: Toms signature, furthermore, incase anyone noticed Dreaminghawk, Saponi1, collins and I got in a pretty heat post, but you know what we were able to work it out and learn from eachother, I am younger than alot of you and I have only been doing this for 7 years, Tommy Tsunami is looking for answers, but he likes challenge, was that not aparent? He is only about 36 years old, and still trying to learn and make sence of this all himself. And what did the brothers and Sisters I respect so much doo? I basicly watched you slap your own blood proven relative in the face, because he did not say what you wanted to hear. I really really have a heavey heart about this and it has even caused me a tear or 2, to watch my people get so mad that they would alienate their own, that is how tribes fall apart...

By the way just to reinterate what my signature says in Lahkota,

CREATOR UNITE THE PEOPLE

[Dreaminghawk]

Brenda says>>>> That includes saying that I am grateful ---even though I probably shouldn't get hooked on responding to someone's flaming bad manners. [This thread started off with an attitude.]
>>>>

This thread started with several wasted days of research to disprove and ridicule something that all here have known since we came here....indeed, is the reason many arrived at saponitown. ....... IE... the knowledge that there is no relationship between the eastern blackfoot and the BLACKFEET.
If someone would take the time to read the work amassed in the history and genealogy section, rather than jumping the gun and ridiculing our efforts to unravel the mystery, then that someone may discover that there is more DOCUMENTATION collected on this site than anywhere else on the internet. I am also grateful for this site and ever thankful for the opportunity that Linda has provided with this site. To someone who comes with attitude, talks for a few days, doesn't study what is here and then writes it off as hogwash, I gladly say GOODBY.

[techteach]

Well, it is too bad that he feels he has to pick at things, because this forum does do what he came here looking for.

Concerning the Berkeley county folks, in the past, I have followed the Ricketts line that begins in MD, moves to Antietam, and then intersects my Sinkeys in Lancaster, and goes with them to Ohio. I followed them to the Blackfoot Cemetery in Pike County also. Along the way, the family intersects with Mason (Meason), and Green in MD. They also marry into the Chaney line.
One of the sources for this family on genealogy.com states that Edward Ricketts, Jr marries a "squaw Indian" (pardon my use of that phrase!). He lives right next to my own William Sinkey and they both serve in the same unit as Rangers in the Revolution. And one family will has a Green taking over the family of a Sinkey who dies early. (Actually, this is new information that I ought to tell Deb. Hope Lynella reads this. She comes from the Rickett line.)
I have also found that the Presbyterian church connects all these locales and my Greens were Presbyterian.

Techteach

[Dreaminghawk]

I think the thing that hurt most feelings was the implication that this wasn't a site for hard, fact-based research. That search button at the top will open up the greatest repository of obscure early eastern sources and links that you will find anywhere on the net. Search longhunter... or indian traders..... or indian slaves...... court references..... early writings....... a wonderful group of people individually searching and combining every obscure scrap we find.... and still trying to sort it all out.
I'll be out back in the cemetery if anybody needs me ;-)

[mrspatino]

You know, i was tooling around today thinking "WHAT DID i MISS?" was there something Imissed when the whole discussion went south? So I decided I was going to read this thread in it's intirety 3 more times. And from tommys first post, I could not see, how it got so crazy...sigh, and I honestly dont think he should have left infact I asked him to stay. Tommy did have some really interesting things to contribute to the forum as a whole, and I think he could have learned too. He would have been a great long term addition to our already wonderfull Bill Childs. But I cant be happy or glad that he left, I just think it's sad, He cant even be apart of his own people becuse he was confused and being challenged and asking for answers, even if he missed some of the information on this site, there are people on here who know how to present fact, with out getting defensive, his first post states he was not trying to offend anyone or point fingers, and you know what? just because your Saponi does not automaticly mean you know anything about the Blackfoot/Sioux people or that there was any corelation between the 2 people. There just could have been so much more on both sides to offer.
Oh and if people were so mad, why not private message him, call on the phone and work it out, geeesh is it so hard for people to let go of a little pride (sometimes a little humility on one person side can go along way/killem with kindness). You know there are truley people out there trying to debunk us... Tommy is not that person, he just wanted answers.

[lynellarainhawk]

To All,

Hey, I've read some very good points of view here. I'm not even certain how I found this! As far as human origin, true spiritualism aside, I can say one word that comes to mind and it is part of a book title that really does not bear on this, but the word I'm thinking is Starseed.

I believe in the grand scheme of things we are all somehow related to every other living natural particle of this universe as well as our dead.

We all believe what we believe. Live and let live, don't throw stones and you won't get stoned! WE KNOW there ARE the Blackfeet our more Western realtions, and we ALL KNOW WHO WE ARE, WE ARE THE SAPONI (BLACKFOOT) Southeastern Siouan, Native Americans. Key word being "NATIVE"........ Having said that, WE are ALL here for a purpose and what ever we find that is, we follow our own path and get our work done and wake up each day feeling more and more gratified with our own work because we follow our own path. When our paths cross in research, or in spirituality, or in the woods meditating, or chasing butterflies, picking chokecherries or bathing. We simply need to make life work.

I bought a tee-shirt this spring with a photo of Geronimo and a couple other NATIVE Americans on there and under it, it says, "Homeland Security Making the Country Safe Since 1492."

[lynellarainhawk]

I am what I am and who I am because of my parents, my mother and her, my, our ancestors.

We can't loose sight of the goal or theme in that we want to know the truth, what ever it may be. With all the details and pitfalls and guilded ladders, we just have to keep searching and learning and sharing and teaching and hoping that our ancestors will be proven to not only having existed, but continue to exist through us.

I am so gratefull that what ever forces brought Linda to put this site together and what ever forces bring us here to work together, did it. Because, I'd still be standing around with the Blackfoot Cemetery stashed in my head along with a bunch of names and I'd be nowhere. I've learned a lot here, more than I am worthy of. I am just thankful I found you guys and I'm here. It's about sharing information, not arguing and trying to manipulate the belief systems of others. I'm not saying that's what anyone is doing I just worry that durring these tiny conflicts between us sometimes that it will sort of like open a doorway that will lead to such decietfullness, and I love you all and don't ever want that to happen. So, now that I'm done and you have all fallen asleep, I believe I will mozy on and see what our other fellows are up to!;) Love & Light, Lynella.

P.S. Don't get me wrong, I am not a little mary sunshine ALL the time. Ask anyone who truly knows all of me! I like to pick a good fight and fight a good battle too, but the battles must be chosen carefully and strategically, or you end up listening to the prattle of some little twerp like me!!:D

[techteach]

L:
Can you or your brother establish a link to Edward Ricketts/Chaney Ricketts/Reson Ricketts to the Ricketts in the Blackfoot cemetery? Edward Jr. of PA, is recorded on genealogy.com as having married "an Indian squaw." His line follows a movement pattern that Brenda Ferrell Sampson, Bess Veney, and I have been poking at. That is your Blackfoot ID isn't it?

Techteach

[lynellarainhawk]

Techteach,

Ooh, I will look into that, most definately!:)

[Tom]

Well perhaps I should respond, remember the SOP it up thing?
I had to laugh at that even with the side dish of Crow!
If I stay on topic I do much better.
I want to make one thing clear, "do not type cast me", like the rest of you I have been around for more than a day or two when it comes to reseacrh of all types.
If I call myself a " born again heathen", or say not Iam not a "full blooded white guy" or even "ethnically challenged" then let me do it.
Iam not pointing fingers at you just me, I have had to learn to laugh at myself and I do it very well!
If I "Stay on Topic", or atleast the most reasoanble line of conversation that wont heat up and I'll be okay!
Any way I look at it, this site has done more for the Blackfoot diaspora than any other singular effort!
Thanks Linda!

[lynellarainhawk]

Tom,

I'm proud of you! There's a bit of heathen in me too! I'm even more proud that you eat that side of crow with such dignity!:D Love & Light, Lynella.

[Linda]

I really regret I was not around when this thread first started. I would have posted the link to the article we have linked on the main page, www.saponitown.com/blackfoot.htm. It summarizes the research we've done to date on the evidence indicating a Saponi Blackfoot presence in the southeast. I don't think anyone can read that and summarily dismiss our efforts.

Interesting that first link Tommy gave dismissing us was to the Native-languages site. I have another site, www.greattradingpath.com, where various vendors sell their crafts. Being southeastern, not many of the vendors have BIA cards.

We used to be #1 for Native American Drums but were drummed out of that position (sorry for the pun) by the native-languages site. They only deal with federally recognized vendors.

That's all well and good and I don't begrudge them what they've accomplished, but it's naive to think they are unbiased. Everyone's biased. As they say in the Philosophy of Science, there are no facts. There are only theories. When we forget that, we lose touch with the very heart of science.

[vance hawkins]

I liked Tommy and was thankful to have him here -- I felt he & I were sorta kindred spirits -- I felt that. We need people who will question some things that we sometimes don't question enough.

He would have done that, and I believe he would have been welcomed in that role. I still think if we all emailed him saying we hold nothing personal against him and welcomed his comments, he might come back. He did misunderstand things, but then so have I, and I still do sometimes.

I think Tommy was an important voice here even tho he wasn't here very long, and we ought to think about what made him leave, and how we can prevent people who come here from leaving so abruptly -- like they do with the space shuttle -- when it malfunctions the analize why.

This is why I am so cautious about terminology -- he lives in Colorado hence has heard tales like I heard, about "fake Indians" or made up tribes in the East, with all kinds of warnings to beware of these groups -- we hear that on the western side of the Mississippi all the time. Even if he might have been born in the East, he has heard all of that stuff that I have heard by living west of the Mississippi, and he has lived near full bloods too out in SW Colorado -- Ute to his west Navajo to his SW and Pueblo to his SE and a few others -- i think there are over 100,00 Navajo alone, most of them ARE full bloods or nearly so. So he's heard the same tales I've heard, I bet.

Where the Cherokee are concerned Tommy is right -- there is a lot of nonsense fake made-up tribes that have mislead many honest people -- Chickamauga tribe of this place and Chickamauga Cherokee of that place -- all over the place.

But such shoddy genealogy and made up history HAS distracted away from REAL genealogy and REAL history. When these people enroll in the "Chickamauga Tribe of Never Never Land Cherokees" -- federally enrolled people think "he/she just bought a bottle of "Snake Oil Cure All" sold by some quacky wacky doctor with a license to practice medicine that she/he bought on over internet from Quacky-Wacky University.

When we see honest people don't take this research, our baby, seriously -- the reason can be traced back to little cult leaders (who are calling themselves "Chief Black Bear" or something like that) who create a tribe and website on the internet, and most of these groups unfortunately claim to be Cherokee. Many of these groups never did exist in any real sense. There are REAL pockets of "lost" descendants of Cherokee -- but they'd be better served to seek something like what we are doing, creating a "Cherokee Descendants Association" or something like that, rather than calling themselvs a tribe. State recognized Cherokee groups in some states warn people of some of these groups, and we ought to as well -- take the offensive.

We need to distance ourselves from such groups, and maybe even warn people against them if we have evidence they are publishing false information over the internet, so that we don't get lumped together with them. Maybe lobby state legislatures (I believe Lynne Pepper mentioned this recently) so states without a state recognition process could be educated of this problem. Would this have kept Tommy from walking away, or made him less critical of our efforts? -- I don't know, but it might have . . .

vance

[Charles Orear]

Vance,

You and the others make very valid points here. I would love to join the Eastern Souian Descendants Assoc. I think the title is fitting, and the FACT that it isn't called Tribe, Nation etc..is wonderful. I too have been a very embaressed victum of some folks who where misleading alot of good hearted people( no doubt most, if not all of them a TRUE NA background) down the road of ridicule and being laughed at for bieng a member of the Wanna-Be Chickamauga Cherokee Nation of the Week lead by our Chief Princess Know-it-all. Vance as you may know Missouri is running rampit with them ol' Wanna-Be Scam Cherokeet Nations and Tribes. I haven't been to any PowWows in several years now, and when I did go, and ID'd myself as
"belonging" to this certian Unnamed Cherokeet Tribe of the Louisiana Territory more often(80% +) than not people, especially those of Western Nations would give me the fish eye. I want to be Pride of my ancestory, and am proud to say I am Blackfoot . I feel that by calling ourselves an Association is a very safe way to avoid any of this unwanted negetivaty.

Charles

PS Please overlook the misspellings, and pardon the rambling.

[Brenda Ferrell Sampsel]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Linda
[B]I really regret I was not around when this thread first started. I would have posted the link to the article we have linked on the main page, www.saponitown.com/blackfoot.htm. It summarizes the research we've done to date on the evidence indicating a Saponi Blackfoot presence in the southeast. I don't think anyone can read that and summarily dismiss our efforts. ]

Linda,

I read again your Blackfoot paper and it still holds together well for me. Here are two little snippits to support the migration routes:

1. This paper can be found at the American Philosophical Association, which has a Native American collection. [I haven't had a chance to read it yet. Not sure if I will have to go to Philadelphia someday, or if there is another way!] http://www.amphilsoc.org/library/guides/indians/info/penn.htm

4651. MASON, JOHN ALDEN. The Indians of Pennsylvania; Sept. 1957. T.D. 20pp. c.c.

Re: the Delaware, Susquehannock, Erie, Wenrohronon, Honniasont, and the transitory Mohegan, Seneca, Oneida, Wyandot, Ottawa, Tuscarora, Saponi, Tutelo, Nanticokes, Conoy, Shawnee, and Munsee. Written for the Pennsylvania Historical Commission.

[4017(C20)]

(I would like to know more about the Honniasont, too).

2. I have seen a couple of accounts of Willliam Crawford's ill-fated SANDUSKY Ohio campaign. A Dr. Knight who is with him escapes, while Crawford, of course, is burned. Anyway, there is an Indian who guards Dr. Knight who is called TUTELO. My guess is that this wasn't really his name, but that he was Tutelo. I count it as an Ohio "sighting". Also, the quote about the Seneca of the Sandusky being remnants of Logan's band and a mixture of Indians, few of whom were Seneca, can be found, I seem to remember, in Henry Howe's History of Ohio....

http://thorin.adnc.com/~galliher/FAM28.HTM
"The following morning, Dr. Knight under the guard of the giant Indian named Tutelo, had his face blackened and was then taken away to be led to a Shawnee village some forty miles distant. On the way they passed the spot where Crawford had been executed, and Knight saw the bones and charred remains of his commanding officer laying in the ashes of the fire. While on the journey, Knight managed to escape from his guard by hitting him over the head with a heavy stick while the Indian was engaged in tending a fire. The blow knocked the surprised savage face down into the fire, at which he sprang up howling with pain and rushed off into the forest. Thereupon, Dr. Knight made his painful way back to Fort McIntosh subsisting on berries and nettles, a "raw tarrapin!" and two young birds. After three weeks of wandering in the wilderness, he reached the Fort with the full dreadful tiding of Crawford's execution (94) "

Reference:

("94) Knight and John Slover, one of the pilots of the expedition who made a spectacular escape from the Indians as they were going to burn him, wrote and published together, their memoirs and stories of the expedition, including the death of Crawford and their own sufferings and escape from death. It was published at Philadelphia in the year 1783 and is referred to by Butterfield as the "Knight and Slover... cannot read rest of footnote. "
[Wennonawoods republished this 1783 account a few years ago. I would like to check out their copy to see if it agrees with the above, or adds more. Note that 1783 is pretty fresh and I think of it as a "primary account" by Knight of his ordeal.]

Incidently, William Crawford was initially before the wars a trader. He, too, was in Orange Co., VA early on before he moved up to western PA. He had a daughter, Nancy Connell, with Ann Connell [see his will at the provided link]. This Nancy married Thomas MOUNTS, who was a son of Providence MOUNTS, who in turn was one of at least two sons of Joseph MOUNTS of Orange County VA, an adult c. 1732. Joseph MOUNTS ws an Indian trader, son of Swede Charles MOUNTS ANDERSON who was a trader and interpreter. The descendants of Thomas and Nancy Connell Mounts tell me they wound up in Indiana finally after a period in KY. They met when their families were living in PA, area that is present day Fayette County.

Brenda

[Linda]

Thanks Brenda, I should work those references into the article.

If you all notice I haven't done that, remind me. You know how afflicted my poor memory is.

[techteach]

Linda

While you are at it, you might add the reference to Shikellemy's 2nd wife that I posted in the other thread here on Blackfoot Indians a day or two ago. I found a site in Canada where it is noted that Shikellemy's second wife was Tutelo. That is, if it is not already in your article.

Techteach

[Linda]

I think it's already in there.