This is regards to my last post on the DNA board

[mrspatino]

The DNA Board is not a discussion for this topic re: featehrs pow wows ect.

But I wanted to add this;

Pow Wows are not just a FUN thing, it is a gathering of my people, I did not take an Oath of Sobriety, because it was fun, I took that oath for my self, my Ancestors, the youth, the Elders, our Parents, the brothers and sisters on this board, and because I fight for Indian rights, sing on a traditional drum and compose my self as a traditional woman, I am in NO way better than anyone else.

I dont carry a tribal card, but this is not a game to me this is my life. I commit my life to the people. And when someone wants to educate me on why Turkey is sacred then I am all for it! I want to make sure it is Turkey we are talking here, I had a friend who is Cherokee and he had all Hawk feathers for his bussle, some people get the 2 mixed up.

I am more than happy to talk about this, I am no expert of Saponi tradition, or any tradition, I just follow what I have been taught by Lakota, Ojibe and Oddawa.

[Dreaminghawk]

This part I posted on DNA post in case Collins doesn't come over here.

Collins says>>>> The thing is that Eastern tribes needs to seperate off and do their own Pow-wows in their own customs and traditions if the Plains people don't want us there.

My point exactly. "Real" ndns don't use turkey and goose BECAUSE they were used by the eastern tribes....... and we all KNOW there are no real ndns east of the mississippi.
peace, my brother
btw...... I will continue to wear a single turkey feather straight up centered in the back of my fedora ;-)

Mrs. Patino, I appreciate your youth and enthusiasm. Having lived in NC all my 53 years on the same land that has been in my euro-family's hands for 250 years, and they married the people they found here. .....Wakan tanka jesus only knows how long they had been here. ..... we have always lived with wild turkeys and find them to be quite majestic and tasty. Not sacred...... nowhere in my post did I inter or imply or declare that the turkey is a sacred bird. If a turkey feather drops, no big deal.... turkeys drop them all the time.

[mrspatino]

DH this is what you wrote which led me to believe that you were implying that Turkeys were sacred.

It is my understanding that the eastern tribes, especially Saponi, traditionally wore turkey feathers. It was an indigenous and much honored bird in the east. But I understand that from what you are saying, western full bloods who follow a traditional custom started in the 20th century for the entertainment of whites will look down on me if I wear the feathers that my people have worn for 1000s of years? I never could figure out ndn politics and red racism. I'm not trying to confront you, just trying to understand.

All I am trying to Understand is who what when why and how did Turkey become sacred, educate me...

And I am sorry if you think that I put on my ragalia and my feathers for the entertainment of it, you are sadley mistaken, and you have never seen me sing a prayer song and you have never seen me stand when that feather has dropped, show respect to my veterans ect..., I sing and I dance and I pray for the people with the tools Creator gave our people.

And if you read my post carefully, I have been all over turtle island and have never heard of turkey feathers being sacred, that is why I want to know what their significance is and why they are sacred please tell me, because as far as I know everyone here is still Saponi or native of some affiliation, someone must have an explanation for me if I am wrong and asking for a correction dont just tell me your ancestors wore them for thousands of years and they were tastey. And we are not talking about the feather people wear in their fedora to church on sunday, or are we?

Oh and I dont know why it was said that the eastern tribes should seperate them selves, is that our eastern people want, to be seperated from their indegenous family, so that we can further seperate from our people of all turtle island nations? That makes me want to cry, Maybe the plains people want us there but cant understand why Saponi people are using turkey feathers, when they know they never used them. has anyone thought about it that way? has anyone ever flipped the coin. Maybe they dont understand and they are like me asking for an explanation.

[Dreaminghawk]

Ms Patino, I am sorry that I thought you were mature enough to discuss the truth. If others join the discussion, I will continue and you may read and perhaps understand. You have defensively twisted everything that I have said from the beginning of this discussion. I purposely gave my age to see if you had any respect for your elders (little "e") You have read but not heard what I have said. You continue to play 20th century traditional and I will continue to wear my fedora as I trek the woods finding the ancestors. You have no idea of the truth, dearheart. I am done.

[mrspatino]

DH, ... please excuse my enthusiastic curiosity, i did not intend to come off offensive or defensive, nor was it my intent to "twist" anywords or statements.

I thought that from your previous posts there was something that I needed to learn, some teaching that I was not privy to , or some tradition that i have not yet learned. I am not immature to this discussion or close minded to the the possiblity of being wrong. I am eager, at the opportunity to learn new teachings.

As far as respecting my "e" elders, that as with all people is not a given, or automatically assumed privalege. your age alone and the trials and suffering you may have gone through in life is respectable but we have not sat around a sacred fire and prayed, talked, or shared stories and teachings. myElders are medicine men who run ceremonies, head men of nations in my area, aunties that talk to me of spirituality, (I)tlatoani's(/I) (great speakers - mexica) that keep oral traditions thousands of years old, and Elders that bring teachings and messages to the young people to make new warriors, male and female, aunties that fight large corporate monsters to keep them off our indigenous land and waters. these are my Elders they are my teachers, aunties and uncles, who have put themselves in danger to protect teachings and lead by example. Aunti Linda is the only one I have shared these things with here, and that is why she has earned the title as Auntie from me.

You have my respect for your years on this great mother earth, I thank you for being a part of this community and i look forward to "hearing" what you have to say.

[Dreaminghawk]

http://www.yvwiiusdinvnohii.net/Cherokee/WendellCochran/CCNotes-ClothingAdornment.htm

http://www.emayzine.com/lectures/seminoles.htm

http://www.cherokeebyblood.com/clothing.htm

http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/redir?src=websearch&requestId=539d8d77121603d3&clickedItemRank=14&userQuery=turkey+feather+cloak&clickedItemURN=http%3A%2F%2Fwallaceworld.net%2Fseq .htm&title=Cherokee+Bits+and+Pieces

[collins]

The main point I was trying to make about Eastern Peoples seperating out to form their own Pow-wow circles is based on the fact that the contest rules dictate a Plains traditional style dress and dance. This is a wonderful thing for our brothers to do. It helps to keep their traditions alive.
The flip side to this; the dress and customs and dances of Eastern Woodland peoples tends to get made fun of out of ignorance. They just don't know and that is why I chimmed in when the subject came up. I am not saying that Eastern Native People should shun or distance themselves from others tribes just that if there is some kind of negative experience associated with going to certain Pow-wows then perhaps those persons should try and organize something that speaks to their traditions or go ahead and attend with the idea of educating.

Although the Saponi and other Eastern Souian tribes share relatedness, language roots, and some customs and traditions the Saponi were a distinct people. We parted with our brothers back around 1200 AD so alot of time passed since we were all together. The Plains people developed based more on the hunt for Buffalo and the lifestyles that were more adapted to the high plains, while our people hunted buffalo too (woodland buffalo), the Saponi's main stay were the deer and turkey in the hunt and more sedentary agriculture. We used terracing systems to irregate our crops much like our South American brothers in Peru. The Saponi share some common souian traits, language roots, designs and customs but they do vary and have a seperate woodland culture.

On the issue of sacred birds, of coarse the turkey is sacred. All creation is sacred. Does the eagle have a higher significant place in ceromony? Perhaps to some degree yes. For the Saponi they held that the hawk was highly sacred and a guide for their nation. The turkey and the deer sustained our people so you see the relationship between the deer and turkey and us is a pretty significant one. They kept our people alive. One of the main reason that our people burned the woods was to make meadows for the turkey and deer to have a resource for food like acorns, berries etc. Turkey bones were used to make flutes, clothing, to apply pacoon paints, they even sometimes would make sacred pouches by tanning turkey hide which is not very easy to accomplish. Turkey feathers were used in dance ceremonies and in healing ceramony. I am not saying that the use of turkey feathers was more highly asteemed than the use of other feathers such as hawk or eagle, but the turkey did play a significant role amoung Eastern tribes.
You may be surprised to find out also that Saponi women used to make skirts out of woven possom hair. There is so much documentation out there that I would suggest, if you have the time, to research it and verify what I am saying for yourself. The thing is that for my family alot of these things were just understood the comformation through documents and written histories came later.
I am in no way saying throw out what you have learned from others or those particular traditions. They have meaning and purpose. They sustain you through your troubles and tribulations. That is what you were meant to do or you wouldn't be doing it.

On the goose feather thing I have no clue about that one, but I do know that our people used duck feather and that the duck was significant to a degree as well as the woodpecker. All our animal brothers have a special sacredness and medicine that is uniquely theirs. I know that the Massachusett peoples used swan and duck in there dress and ceremony in the past, but I do not know if they still do or not.
Any medicine person will tell you much the same thing it just that for each person or even group there may be a certain animal or group of animals that speaks to them more.

One problem that I have noticed is that some Plains people, in the past have got very upset at the exapropriation of their particular customs and that for me is saying don't do it for myself and myself alone. In my case I have alot of tradition to lean on that in the past I never really saw because it was so close to me. The pastuer is always greener type thing. (for me) In my journey I have learned that it is not about others acceptence of my peoples traditons its for me more about the connection to Spirit and whether or not that connection is real for me. We all must find our connection.
I stopped going to Pow-wows a long time ago because for me the venue was too public. I didn't feel comfortable in the DFW Pow-wow circuits. That may be a regional thing I don't know. I just know that I wasn't comfortable and that the dances were very sacred and I didn't feel that these things were getting the reverence they deserved. I don't feel it should be a specticle like oputting on a show and the DFW Pow-wows tend to go that direction, kind of like going to a football/baseball game or something. That is alot of I's and me's but I am just trying to explain my experiences for perspective.

[mrspatino]

Thank you for sending me these links, I learned that many tribes in the east wore fowl feathers, I was reminded that there is a bird clan to the Cherokee, that Owl is part of their creation story. I also saw the that Turkey feathers were definetley used for cloaks, but I did not see a teaching as to why turkey is used so significantly, is there an old story of turkey to the Cherokee people or another SE tribe? I like the old stories because I feel it establishes, time, foundation and history.
Also what I see very interesting is that the Mexica also were known to wear feather capes/cloaks these feathers were Mcaw and quezal birds and the significance of the feathers had to to with the cosmos (jaguar was also used), and each color had a meaning and connection to the creator, was this the same for the eastern tribes, was there a significance of that feather to a specific prayer, story, idea?

I would like to use the significants of the turkey cloak as a paralelle to what the Mexica also wore, in teaching others here I think solidarity of parelleling these tribes as both using feathers as cloaks will also help, which really isnt that far off because I have seen evidence of the Cherokee actually having some contact with the Mexica.

[mrspatino]

Thank you collins,
that is a little more for what I am looking for, Why do you think it is, that other nations have tried to establish a mockery of using turkey feathers, do you think it is because, vendors have sold them for money (selling our faith)(equating them as insignificant as Blue chicken feathers in a toy war bonet), do you think it is because other tribes are so tired of people stealing Native ways and throwing up $50 sweat lodges and passing them off as authentic? Do you think it is a simple as, the South East Brothers and Sisters not explaining to the other nations why this is an importantant and significant bird to them? Each region is Uniqely different tribaly, I think if the other regional tribes understand the significants of feathers like these... more clearley:
Ignorance can only be stopped by education. I really want to do some more research myself, on the seperation of the Saponi and the Plains people, did we move here from the plains or Vice versa, I am thinking that some of this is do to an old seperation of our people, as we adapt to our surroundings.

There is alot in this one topic to be looked into and learned.
But I am happy because this helps me change what I have been influenced by here, and helps me gain knowledge to dispell any ignorance that I may hear here, I was tottally unaware, of some of this, but it has cleared somethings up for me.

I think here because there are wild turkey every where and the fact that they were not used spiritually is hard for Anishenabe to understand why others would use the turkey.

[Saponi 1]

Cristina, Dreaminghawk and others,

I have read with interest comments about feathers, drumming and singing. I will only add a few comments. I attended my first pow-wow well over 26 years ago at Fort Peck in Montana, however I started dancing in earnest under 10 tens years ago. I understand both perspectives. I was at the Pow-Wow in Washington, D.C. for the NAMI two weeks ago and a fellow Southeastern indian remarked that we are always overshadowed by the plains indians. She remarked it would be nice if they featured south eastern indians. I remarked simply that all things being equal it would be nice however, in most cases what would we high-light other than representations of the plains dances? Or less than accurate presentations in regalia and dance. I have yet to see a black regalia on any plains traditional woman. Nor have I seen a combination men's fancy/traditional regalia. I have only seen one child under 8 years of age that not only gourd danced, hoop danced, traditional danced, grass danced sang/drummed --where else but in the Southeast of course. I do believe we have traditions in the southeast--yet we have lost so much we take license, and when challenged some become defensive. Perhaps we either need to earnestly try to learn from tribes with traditions in tact, revitalize our own or do as in the article below--establish protocal and standards....because this is what you will find most tribes complain about with regard to the East Coast--not just the South East.

Honestly, one of the reasons I seldom sing with a drum any more is because several of the drums had too many women back up singers, and because we really did not know how to sing traditionally we sounded more like a choir...and trust me there is a difference in the sound. I am out of practice these days so I have lapsed back into the 'choir sound' a bit...it's not coming from my throat...I need practice--but the point I am trying to make is
we must do things in a good way.

I usually refrain from commenting on many of these issues but this thread struck a cord with me. Because along with this whole strain comes the use of Indian names--why, oh why must so many of the names contain Eagle, Bear, Buffalo usually preceded by White? You know, Dog Shot in the Belly was an indian name.
So was White Man Runs Him, Comes Out Holy etc.

Another issue that rankles my nerves is everyone that feels they must 'become' a spiritual person or otherwise annoit themselves with some title that they then publicize. Spirituality also known as Medicine is not discussed publicly, nor displayed. I am personally offended when someone approaches me to tell me they attended Sundance--that is a personal thing, it does not make a person more indian, or more spiritual to share this information.

Sometimes we end up sounding like walking advertisements for the New-agers by using language that really reflects attitudes that have nothing to do with indians--'Power Animals," "Crystals" --that is all new age.

My best advice has always been to sit back, watch, look and listen. That is the indian way. If you do not know-don't make it up. Additionally, if you truly want to understand pow-wows--do not attend the same ones all the time. Get out go listen to different drums, watch different dancers. But the key is watch.--too many peopel jump in, develop a comfort zone and never leave, never learn, never evolve. That's where you get the purple, pink, and green feathers (and I don't mean in a man's fancy dance regalia, black regalia, and other behavior that ends up being labeled in terms that gets people hankles up.

I hope I did not offend anyone. But it was a great topic that reallly should be expanded.


The take away from this should be to realize that we do have a certain protocal since most tribes are sharing dances, songs and regalia's learn them, honor them in a good way.

In reading the article below you will see that even the plains indians had lost much--so they convened a pow-wow to discuss these things and to share. Many of the pow-wow traditions we see today originated with this historic pow-wow in Oklahoma.


Perhaps in the southeast it would we would be best served by using some examples from history:


Moving History: The Evolution of the Powwow
“Powwows are a celebration of being Indian!”
By Dennis W. Zotigh
Powwows celebrate being Indian. These events inspire cultural and personal pride in American Indians. They allow Indian tribes, families, and individuals to come together for the purpose of feasting, hearing their languages spoken, exchanging arts and crafts, singing, dancing, and upholding tribal customs. Because the powwow is a recent Indian phenomenon, it should be emphasized that an Indian cannot be considered traditional simply because he or she attends powwows.
The term "powwow" derives from an Algonquian Indian word "pau wau," which means "he dreams." In this definition, "pau wau" had a personal, reverent, religious significance. Contrasting this definition, the contemporary powwow is open to the public and is a group-oriented social event.

The concept of powwow originated among the tribes who inhabited the Great Plains from the southern prairies of Canada to the lower plains of Texas. In the pre-reservation era, many Plains tribes formed inter-tribal alliances. These alliances allowed tribal-specific songs, dances, and ceremonies to be exchanged. This is the historical foundation for today’s "intertribal powwow."

The first legitimate intertribal powwow in Oklahoma was the Ponca Powwow. It began in northern Indian Territory around 1879. Indian Territory was truly inter-tribal as approximately 67 tribes have been historically associated with lands that became Oklahoma. Many tribes’ members traveled by horse as far as one hundred miles to participate in inter-tribal singing and dancing at the Ponca event. These tribes included the Omaha, Ponca, Kaw, Osage, Pawnee, and Otoe-Missouria. The "heluska" or men’s warrior dances dominated the early Ponca Powwows.

Into the early 1900s the Plains Indians’ lifestyles were rapidly deteriorating as the peoples’ spirits had been broken. During World War I American Indians enlisted in the armed forces, and members of Indian tribes that were once mortal enemies fought side by side to defend the United States. At their homecoming most veterans laid their tribal differences aside to dance with their comrades to a common drumbeat. The American flag, once a symbol of the destruction of Indian lives, acquired a new status at twentieth century Indian gatherings. In a renaissance of ancient warrior societies, celebrations began to reemerge to honor veterans as modern-day warriors. Tribal elders who remembered specific tribal protocol contributed their knowledge of conducting ceremonies for Indian servicemen.

As a result, new procedures, combined with ancient traditions, developed to fit the times. By 1920 the Plains tribes of southwestern Oklahoma held their first inter-tribal powwow at Dietrich Lake. As inter-tribal powwows became more numerous, new songs and organizations were instituted to commemorate contemporary events. By the 1950s the inter-tribal powwow reached the cities as tribal members relocated to find employment. This provided an even greater opportunity for cultural exchange among a wider variety of Indian peoples. Their need to identify with other Indians encouraged them to seek mutual "Indian-ness" in inter-tribal powwows.

From Alaska to Florida to Southern California to Maine and everywhere in between, wherever there is a pocket of Indians, there are powwows. The powwow circuit is analogous to the professional rodeo, golf and tennis circuits. Following the powwow circuits is a year-round way of life for many Indians.

The central, most significant, focal point of any powwow is the drum and singers. They provide the musical accompaniment and set the tempo for the dances. Powwow dancing is the most visible part of the powwow. The men's fancy dance and women's fancy shawl dance are both recent innovations that began less than a century ago. In addition to these two dances other dance categories include the northern men's traditional dance, southern men's straight dance, men's grass dance, women's northern/southern traditional dance, and women's jingle dress dance.

The powwow has become popular all across North America and has spread into Europe. The event has faced many changes since its inception. Individual tribal identity has become less identifiable in songs, dances, and the regalia that are worn today. As Indian people continue to live with the values of both the modern world and their Indian background, these influences will continue to affect the evolution of the powwow.
BIBLIOGRAPHY:

Eshbach, Karl and Applbaum, Kalman , "Who Goes to Powwows? Evidence from the Survey of American Indians and Alaska Natives," American Indian Culture and Research Journal 24 (2000).

Moore, John H., "How Giveaways and Pow-wows Redistribute the Means of Subsistence:" The Political Economy of North American Indians (Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1993).

Powers, William K. , "Powwow," Native America in the Twentieth Century: An Encyclopedia," ed.Mary B. Davis (New York: Garland Publishing, Inc., 1994).

Williams, Andrew Wade , "We Are All Warriors Now: Dancing in the Future in the Contemporary Oklahoma Powwow" (B. A. thesis, Harvard University, 1997).

Zotigh, Dennis W., MOVING HISTORY: The Evolution of the Powwow, Center of the American Indian (1991).

Dennis Zotigh has participated in the Powwow circuit since he was a child. He is Santee Sioux, San Juan Pueblo, Kiowa, and a member of the staff of the Oklahoma Museum of History.

[Dreaminghawk]

Ms Patino, Thank you for a civil reply. Collins did an excellent job of explaining how traditions develop. Every tribe developed unique to its environment, based on available resources. Tribes that lived near waterways honored shells and water birds. Tribes that lived inland honored inland plants and animals.... As Collins said, all things are sacred when you live life in a sacred manner.
Traditions usually have logical reasons for developing...... the ceremony is added to make it tangibly important. Sometimes, over generations, the original importance is lost and only the tradition remains.
I originally stated that we WORE turkey feathers, thus the cloaks as proof of the truth of what I said.
I apologize for asking the loaded question to start with, since I already knew the answer. My comment about red racism was aimed at that attitude, not at you. The reason the recognized tribes look down on turkey and goose feathers IS because of their importance to the eastern tribes. The reason they hate the easterns and mixed bloods is because the migrations that we are discussing at Saponitown is the cause of the displacement of the plains and northern and western tribes in the 1800s. Most do not even know why they hate us... it's just a tradition ;-). Our ancestors were the first into each new frontier...... the first to mistreat or displace..... the first to kill or be killed by those we were displacing. That is the truth that nobody wants to hear.
btw..... when dealing with an elder, please learn to err on the side of politeness..... you never know when you might be talking to a big"E" ;-)

[Dreaminghawk]

Saponi1, thank you for your reply. I would love to see non-competition southeastern powwows start to reflect more of our traditions as they are recovered. I would love to see more Sauratown dresses....... Linda's shell whirlwind necklace... more turkey feathers ;-) ..... canoe dances...... stomps....
All of this stuff isn't lost.......some of it is hiding in musky archives ....... also some is still in our hearts. You said whatever you do, do it because it is a good thing. Well said.

[Saponi 1]

I don't think Plains Indians hate us. I have seen too many interact with Southeastern tribes positively. I think what they dislike is our interpretation of things. I saw a gentleman in DC a few week ends ago with a well put together full turkey cloak and turbin. I have also seen a woman with an abbreviated versioin of this cloak. When an outfit is well researched, and put together with some rhyme and reason I believe any tribe can respect that. But when you see an outfit that is put together as if the person had little regard for historical accuracy, tradition or even contemporary pow-wow protocal it is difficult. I have seen pow-wows that were once very well attended and a joy to attend that have the very life stiffled out of them by "the over eager to participate" with all kinds of thrown together items, and even thrown together drums, mixed with new age this and that. And before you know it...the pow-wows struggled to survive. I have heard seasoned dancers say they'd rather dance with 'true hobbyist' (those that learn the bead work down to the last detail, study the dances etc) than those that come out with no clue...with mystical names, smuding everything that moves and intoning names that are guaranteed to make them 'sound' Indian yet really divulge another story. I had a plains indian friend once that was asked what his REAL name was--he replied several times that his name was David (not his real name for privacy) the other person could not believe that his REAL name was not a mystical name that had to do with Bears, Wolves, etc...I've gotta quit...I'm not sure many of you will even understand unless you've been involved

[lynne pepper]

Thank you friends, for these informative posts.

As I read from Dreaminghawk, and Collins, and Saponi1....the traditions that have been revived by the western plains Indians, may be a valuable model for the reclaimation of the ways of eastern tribes. It was instructive to realise how short a time ago the west had to do something to keep their traditions alive. Its never too late.

Thanks again for all the work.

Lynne

[mrspatino]

One of my Uncles who passed a few years ago was along time Anishenabe MC for Pow Wows, and one time (very early on when I was still a young Pow Wow doe) I saw this Cherokee young man (did not know he was Cherokee when I asked)who had on very different regalia than what I was usedto seeing here, so I asked Uncle what the heck he was wearing, and Uncle squashed my attitude and told me that it was very well researched Cherokee regalia. The things is Uncle never yelled at me, he simply corrected me. I am talking about these things because I want to be apart of what we are trying to reestablish.
Like I love Auntie Lindas Idea of turning the campout into ceremony, I want to sit down and talk to everyone about these issues, and we should, talk about them, We are trying to reclaim who we are here right? Everyone has brought up good points, lets talk about them, and I dont mind keeping it private if someone wants to PM me. But we are a community and much of this should be shared, evenif the topics can be painful, sometime it is painful.

I think I like what you said the best DH in a simple line earlier; "some is still in our hearts"

We all have different communities we hang around, some hang with predominate Cherokeee, some Seminole, some Lakota and some :D Anishenabe ect.... , many of us are, apart of these communities because we have a need to be close to our people, regardless of whos way it is, and we are trying, because our ANcestors want us to, they want us to learn, and quite possibly the other tribes around us carry our traditions. A few months ago I posted some thing re; that the Anisheabe believe we belong to them, not the Lakota and vice versa, and I believe I remember lAuntie Linda saying that some our people went up to six nations. So these are all things we need to take into consideration.
Oh Saponi 1 you said:
I have seen pow-wows that were once very well attended and a joy to attend that have the very life stiffled out of them by "the over eager to participate" with all kinds of thrown together items, and even thrown together drums, mixed with new age this and that. And before you know it...the pow-wows struggled to survive.

This is why the Turkey Feather thing came up for me, because never did I see turkey feathers remotely used in any well put to gether regalia or cloak or any thing, they were half destroyed turkey feathers, with a new agey spin, and some interpretation of wearing war paint, a good deal of hobbyist folks in Michigan, (Creator forgive me) look rediculous and plain and simply mock our culture (unintentionally).
We dont have folks here who are hobbyist who have well put together regalia here.
That is why I desperately needed a good explanation for the Feather issue, because i have had a whole different experience. Oh and I think, there is an avenue that can be persued to the significance of what the turkey feather significance is. If anyone is interested in maybe checking it out, The Cherokee Bird Clan families might have an Idea, because each clan has it's own specialized teaching sometimes, they might know.

[Dreaminghawk]

Christina, thank you for your kind words. It IS still in our hearts, .... it's in our collective consciousness .... when we research and understand the resources and logic of their life .... when we feel what that life was like, then we will know what they found important... what they would have ceremonies for... how they would dress..... what they eat.... and if we listen, the ancestors will speak to our hearts and show us the WAY.
You have a good heart. We need a thousand like you. That's why I picked on you ;-)
Saponitown is now 950 members strong..... that's a pretty sizable tribe.

[mrspatino]

OOh I see you are one of those Ornery teaching Uncles, LOL just kidding:D

My husband said yesterday we should all get that T-shirt that has the wallet and a heart and it says being Indian isnt here (pointing to the wallet) it is here(pointing to the heart)

[collins]

I really don't know if other tribes have tried to establish a mockery of Southeast tribal use of turkey feathers. I think probably it is just a knee jerk reaction to something they are not aware of. Your right about the 50$ sweats and the trinket sales. Your also right about education being the answer to ignorance.

From my understanding, based on the history done and the stories from the people themselves, the Southeastern Souian peoples all started out in the Ohio Valley region surrounding and a part of the Hopewell cultural area. This area was a center for trade and it has been theorized that a huge trade route came through the area from the south, down the Mississippi delta, down to Mexico and connecting up with the South American trade paths. I used to be told that our Mexican brothers gave us corn. Growing up I always thought this to be a strange story but later I found out that it was true. Some time around the years of 1100 to 1200 there was a big calamity that effected the regions ability to sustain the large populations. That is when the Lakota, Dakota, Nakota etc. went west onto the Great Plains. Some went South and the rest moved on East. It may have been that around that time that the old stories about over hunting happened. Also the Northern tribes where pushing out too and battles were fought over territory pushing different tribes in different directions.

Depending on what area a tribe lived in, this often would influence greatly their connections to thier environment and subsequently their spiritual outlook to some degree.

[collins]

Originally posted by Lynne Pepper
Thank you friends, for these informative posts.

As I read from Dreaminghawk, and Collins, and Saponi1....the traditions that have been revived by the western plains Indians, may be a valuable model for the reclaimation of the ways of eastern tribes. It was instructive to realise how short a time ago the west had to do something to keep their traditions alive. Its never too late.

Thanks again for all the work.

Lynne

Thank you Lynne that is exactly where I see it too.

[collins]

I would like to thank everyone for the civil tone during this discussion and to Dreaminghawk and Saponi1 for the articles and links.

I study religons off and on and I some how have remained ignorant about the whole New Age issue. I have studied about Spiritualists and read some on the history of Theosophy which supposedly is a part of where New Age thinking comes from. I know that various philosophies are used from differant religons like the Shakers,Quakers, Handsom Lake, L.Ron Hubbard, etc. I know that they studied shamnism and its various forms from different peoples including Native Americans. I guess I don't understand what New Agers may be doing in regards to attending Pow-wows or what their precieved connection may be.

On the issue of the use of animal symbols and crystals, I know that the Cherokee were supposed to have used a huge crystal and placed it in an arch to transport it around. I know that the use of stones and crystals in ceremony is not alien to Native traditions. My Great Grandmother used a headache remedy wraping a stone in a bandana and very tightly wraping this around the forehead. I have also understood that various clans and families in Native tribes utilized animal symbols and behaviours.
Why are the New Age people going to Pow-wows and smudging unless they have permission?
If they don't have permission they shoudn't do it.

What is the definition of New Age?
I know that some people consider others that meditate or that are non-Christian to be New Age or people that maintain an Earth centered religon. I have even heard some singers and musicians are called New Age.

My main beef with Spiritualists/New Agers is the buy my new book/cd thing and their vegatarian syndrom or that some of these folks think that just because they discovered a spirit that talks to them that they are an authority of some kind. I also think that they are off in many ways from my own spiritual perspective on a couple of other topics.

[mrspatino]

There is so much new age stuff on the internet, and I dont even want to go there. And here in Michigan if new agers showed up with a drum, they would be thrown out on their buts, in my opinion all new age faith does is steal from Indegenous people, Wiccans and Voddoo/Santaria and make it into something where they think key word think they can harness and control Creators Power by running 50 dollar sweat lodges, and it's creepy, Read the book "Inside the New Age Nightmare" Remember that cult that wore nikes and all commited suicide because they thought they were hopping on the comet?! Yea those are new Agers, that has nothing to do with Cherokee crystal and stone healing methods ect.. or Vegans/Vegatarians or even granola eaten Hippies, LOL, totaly different thing.

here is your definition:
http://www.free-definition.com/New-Age.html
New Age describes a broad movement characterized by alternative approaches to traditional Western culture. This New Age movement is particularly concerned with spiritual exploration, holistic medicine, and mysticism, yet no rigid boundaries actually exist, making the term point to its own perspective on history, philosophy, religion, spirituality, medicine, music, science, and lifestyle.

So basicly no rules: no rules, even we as Native People have our own so to speak comandments and accountability

And I can speak from first hand, because before I found my path on the red road, I was a very confused young woman, and had some interaction with some New Age folks, they thought it was fun to play with powerfull things (Not of Creator) that they had no understanding of and it scared the crap out of me, I saw some creepy stuff...still trying to forget.
Oh and I am not interested in the game of "Lets find your Chakra", which I believe they stole from the Hindu people

And that is that for that: about the spirituality-energy vampire, sweat lodge stealen, energy vortex, black robed nuts.:D

[Dreaminghawk]

Christina says >>>> OOh I see you are one of those Ornery teaching Uncles, LOL just kidding

Naw....... I'm just a smarta$$ sh*tstirrer ;-)

Well, because of this, Becky is calling me "mule whisperer"

Some things really bother me. The rift between the many red factions is at the top of the list. Becky and I are all about truth and unity. It breaks my heart to see ndns putting each other down when I know that is playing right into the hands of those who would like for us to disappear.
peace
Ken

[mrspatino]

LOL thats funny hehehe:D Becky must have her hands full!

I agree, I think there have been, people who are still out there trying to destroy our culture. And I think it is time to stop them, becaus there are people out there who believe the lies. Or just say things because they think they know and you cant tell them any different. I worked in a wharehouse last year doing office work and pulling pallets, a good portion of them were Jahova Witness, which I have respect for their way, but it isnt mine, and they kept trying to tell me I was PAGAN and that I follow the Devil. Needless to say I did not work there much longer. Some of the meaness just comes from hate and ignorance.

My favorite Lie is when I go to protests and predom white people yell in my face telling me, that they are honoring my people by plastering Ndn mascot heads all over and going shirtless with what they call war paint. ahhh their killen me

You know I am really happy the Indian Issues board is active! I am actually excited about it! It lets me know there is so much more to us than genealogy(which is very valuable) but I like to know what is goin on with my peeps communities.

[Dreaminghawk]

Some folks here might not know about the mule whisperer.
There once was this group of newagers ;-) who wanted to return to a simpler time, so they bought a farm and packed up their crystals and tarot cards and moved to the country. (That's not easy to do on bicycles) They wanted to grow their own organic vegetables. They didn't want to polute so they bought an old mule to plow with. They put him in his traces and hooked the singletree to the turning plow and said giddyup..... He just stood there swishing his tail at flies. (This bothered some of them... he might hurt a fly, you know) Well.... nothing they did would get him to move. They smudged him...... cast his horoscope.... shook crystals at him....... read from Sunbear's book ..... nothing worked.
Finally, they got on line and found a mule whisperer that stayed not too far away. All the reviews said he was better than any horse whisperer.... always got results. So they called him and he said he would be right over. Directly, an old sappony man showed up wearing a turkey feather in his fedora. They were so impressed to be in the presence of such a powerful medicine man... they thought maybe he would bless their crystals after he straightened their mule companion out.
Well, the old sappony looked around and found a piece of 2 X 4 about 4 feet long. He walked over to that ole mule and wound up like a baseball player..... he hit a homerun up side that mule's head. The mule's eyes crossed and he shook his head and looked at that old man. The newagers were aghast.... Several of the men fainted. They were screaming at the old man. WHAT ARE YOU DOING???? You are supposed to be a mule whisperer.
The old sappony leaned on his 2 X 4 and said, "Well, first you got to get their attention.... then you whisper."

[mrspatino]

AAAHHHHHHAhahahah ohmy gosh that's hilarious!!! LOL LOl I have tears, I am going to have to remember that one!

[Saponi 1]

In all honesty Collins, you can not always know who is new age at a pow-wow--there are always some good clues. But again, you can not always be sure. I attended a pow-wow a number of years ago where a woman attended that turned out to be the high chieftess of a coven, she walked right over to the drum placed her forehead and hands on the drum without permission--that pow-wow is going down hill.

I also was at another pow-wow where a man came in a gold lame' cape, equipped with a staff, topped off with a crystal, he was a druid high priest...the gentleman was asked to leave the circle--but the pow-wow stopped long ago. I've seen a women decked out in a pretty strange out fit claiming to do the "Eagle Dance." This pow-wow was talked about for quite awhile--because of the 'power animals,' 'crystals' and 'the ancient Cherokee dance that had been hidden for along time--but was now allowed to be displayed--from all accounts it looked like Tai-Chi" I could go on and on--that pow-wow too ended.. However, It is difficult for the South East to be taken seriously because of many of these types of instances, and the ones Cristina has shared.

One of the most insightful parts of the National Musuem of the American Indian Pow-wow was actually the things the elders had to say about the origins of many of the dances. They encouraged the young peopel to learn the old dances, innovate yes--but learn the old dances so they can be passed down as well. And how they had been changed by the competition pow-wows. I can not go into the total speech they gave but you can read some of the thread on Pow-Wows.com. Competition pow-wows do have a place in our culture, however the traditional pow-wow, gathering is probably my favorite.

Cristina since you are up in the land of the Anishenabs you would have enjoyed the exhibit they shared with their women in the traditional applique dresses 'scrubbing' similiar to a side step, they moved their arms up and down at the same type, without leggings. The elders explained that in the past the women did not use leggings. There were many stories that had to share.

One of my firends use to complain that it was not right that out in the southeast at some pow-wows they are strick on who can dance, what they can wear etc. He was from out west and felt everyone should dance. I basically told him he was from an environment where 95-98% of the people were born into their traditions, had families to make regalia, past down stories, etc. So when one or two people show up at their pow-wows in SD, without regalia, they will not out number the people of the community and you still have a good dance. But out here when you have a pow-wow and everyone is allowed to wear whatever,
come into the circle in street clothes, you end up quickly with some of the examples above.

Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with turkey feathers, one of the Chickahominy has a beautiful turkey feather bustle--I've seen many turkey feather fans. Plus there are what they call 'legal eagle' feathers that are air brushed to look real, as well as 'hawk' etc.

I also, have to apologize about the Indian names--I certainly do not want anyone to feel that they should not have an Indian name. I am trying to be honest and share those things that actually cause some of the misunderstandings. Again, I believe this is a good thread--some open dialogue.

An awesome web-site with indian news is Indianz.com, they also have a forum called "Free for All." They get pretty brutal over there so I wouldn't jump into the fray without lurking along time to learn where they are coming from. Pow-wows.com is probably the best place for Pow-wow information Traditional pow-wows and contemporary--there are great discussions about beadings, crafts, dance styles and sources for dance videos etc.

[mrspatino]

Yee, I love scrubbing it is especially fun when You get a good drum JAM!
I dont know if you can see my regalia in this picture but that is all my own aplique work.

And when you get into the whole priestess druid, druid thing that is Wicca, and you will find that there are alot of traditional Wiccans who would never do that, and that is where I say that the New Agers steel, because true wiccan people would never disrespect native way like that, just as you would not see a native person walk right into to a Wiccan ceremony, vice versa, and if there is an interaction it is by invitation only.

With native news I usually frequent Indian Country Today, an acquaintance of my freelances for them sometimes.

I should not be shocked but what new Age people do anymore, but it is really just sad, Iam sad for them, they are so spiritually lost. Ok well I will continue this later, I am on my way to sing for the folks at American Indian Health, talk to yall later.

[collins]

It is so dangerous for these people to offer 50$ sweats. Sweats can get down right baking and if the folks running it aren't careful people can be injured.

I guess my ancestors have really been watching out for me because I never have got involved with the types of New Age folks you guys have seen or heard about. When I get on the net I usually stick to looking for things like history or maybe a specific topic like Oaxaca Mexico, plants or beads. I never really have typed in New Age before.

The story about the Mule Whisperer was hilarious. It reminded me of my cousins one time slapping their horse Buckshot in the rump with a pingpong paddle. Boy that horse took off like lightening. That was one arnery horse...lol

Thanks again for you guys I needed the laugh.

[Dreaminghawk]

LOL..... the first time I heard a version of that story I thought about an event from my childhood. I was raised on my grandaddy's tobacco farm. We had an old mule named Mollie. She worked good most of the time but when she got tired she would just quit where she was and wouldn't budge. My uncle was trying to get her to go one late afternoon and he finally held her reins and hit her across the nose with the singletree. His wife hollared at him to not hit the mule again in front of the children... to take her around behind the barn if he needed to hit her again. My uncle said, "Hell, woman, if I could take her behind the barn then I wouldn't need to hit her!"
My other uncle was bad about kicking the mule in the belly when he got frustrated. We had just bought a new Super A tractor and Maxie got frustrated and jumped down and kicked that tractor in the belly hard as he could. Broke his foot and was laid up all summer. I thought it was a whole lot funnier than he did ;-)

[mrspatino]

Thats to funny!
I had cows, chickens, pigs and 2 horses(horses for a short period of time they were to expensive to maintain)
But no mules, my husband has some good stories of mules when he would go to Mexico as a child.

Speaking of the hubby he says I have to go get ready, to go to a baptism.

Here let me ask you brothers this question? Do you think we as a community Ie: this Forum should always support people to express themselves, even if it is challenging and painfull. ANd do you think a relative know matter how close or how far the blood line out, should be made to feel like they should alienate themselves from us via a disagreement, or should we attempt to squash the disagreement? This is coming from a post on "The Other Blackfoot" thread here on the board. I think it is an interesting topic, and would like to discuss it. Peace, and Ill talk to ya laters

[Dreaminghawk]

I think Tommy's expertise would be a valuable asset to the board if he will see what's already here and add to it. In my opinion Tommy has vastly underrated the value of this site...... almost to the point of renaming him Walking Eagle. >;-)

[mrspatino]

Yes he could have been a valuable asset, I think it's poo poo he left. Oh well, I cant change things not in my control, and I really hate when I have to say that because that means I have gone down all my avenues to correct something. Have a beautiful Day!

[collins]

Originally posted by mrspatino
Thats to funny!
I had cows, chickens, pigs and 2 horses(horses for a short period of time they were to expensive to maintain)
But no mules, my husband has some good stories of mules when he would go to Mexico as a child.

Speaking of the hubby he says I have to go get ready, to go to a baptism.

Here let me ask you brothers this question? Do you think we as a community Ie: this Forum should always support people to express themselves, even if it is challenging and painfull. ANd do you think a relative know matter how close or how far the blood line out, should be made to feel like they should alienate themselves from us via a disagreement, or should we attempt to squash the disagreement? This is coming from a post on "The Other Blackfoot" thread here on the board. I think it is an interesting topic, and would like to discuss it. Peace, and Ill talk to ya laters




I went over to the Other Blackfoot board and read through the posts there. I am not sure what disagreement went on there since a good chunck of some of the posts have been cut. I have noticed that in several different threads as well. Maybe it is a space saver effort.
Considering the nature of the posts/responses and the emotions wrapped up in family and Native history I think allowing people the freedom to speak their mind and what they know is vital to understanding the past and the present.
I don't think disagreements should be squashed rather they should be resolved if possible. If there seems to be no resolution then everyone certainly must agree to disagree and move forward in respect for one another. People generally alienate if they feel unsafe to participate. Some people are cut out to argue points and others simply pull back from it. I have to admit that I have been guilty of pulling back and off of this forum before. Everyone needs to understand that not all the people posting on the board are going to be professional genologists or historians, but they may be well enough read and familiar with the subject to make a good point or arguement . Many of the disagreements I have seen have been over interpretations of information and whether any one person has a right to express or post that information for public consumption.
Now having said that I also understand that supposedly there are a few people out there that are trolling just to kick up a fuss or maybe envy the open dialgue going on here. I think when that happens most people can read the post and pretty much get that impression. Some will choose to respond some will not. I think it should all be allowed though because you never know what pieces of the puzzle may turn up no matter how awkard they may appear it could turn out to be a watershed.

[collins]

Oh I went to the first board and now see which arguement you were asking about. My last post still stands.

Also I just wanted to add that I left Saponi Town the first time because I was worn out from the 15 years of strong and steady researching I had been doing along with feeling a little hen pecked over posting family information. The second time I left was because my PC went kablewy and it took me a while to get a new one.

[mrspatino]

Hi collins, thanks for putting that up thats how i pretty much feel, put the nicest way possible. I have left the board before mostley because I had alot going on, new mommy ect, ect... for me it was not to take a breather, but in the last 24 hours I have actually thought about taking a break from here for a little while, just because this is the first time I have felt actuall negative emotion from a post on the forum. I have absolutely loved the debate and dialong and education that DH, S1 a you have had with me, Love it! I dont know I am just thinking about it. I really dont want to have to do that because I have been really involved again, and happy until what happened on the Blackfoot board. I dont know... I am just not that kind of sister, my life is dedicated to keeping the people together.

What did not help my feeling about this, is that when I went over to Indian Health last night, I was hangin with my bros, and one of the drums close friends who just happens to be white was invited to sit at our drum (sit not sing), which rarely happens but he lives in a good way and is always respectful, anyway, one of the community members starts drama and talking all loud, "Oh My God IS HE NATIVE? DOes ANY ONE KNOW IF HE IS NATIVE" I just was so digusted. I have known that community member for some time (usaual behavior from individual), but it just was so ugly. And ugly some times breaks me down, so actually if yall can put in allil prayer for me I would appreciate it. I am just a little taxed right now, sometimes my 30 yearold heart feels like its 80.

[wvaram]

Christina, Hang in there and don't leave. I know that there will be disagreements but don't let that cause you to leave. this is really a good place and there is so much more to learn. This is a good place to grow and we are family. As far as prayer is concerned you are in mine.

[collins]

vance hawkins
Moderator

Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Altus, Oklahoma, U. S. A.
Posts: 1093
Horse and Hound --

You asked about "spirits".

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nafps/

I suggest you look at the posts from the group mentioned (above), and maybe ask someone there about it.

vance



Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

06-22-2004 12:32 AM


__________________________________________________ _


I was just reading through some older postings and came across this one. It has a link to a Yahoo group and so I went there and read through a few of the postings.
One of the things they discussed was some court case about a man that said he was a medicine man and used that to abuse women. The other postings that I saw refered to a Cherokee organization for Missouri and Arkansas and some on schools in Arkansas getting federal money for having an increase in Native descended students.
There was also one attacking the Manataka organization or lodge or something or other.
My observation, based on the few posts I read there, was that this was a yahoo group that is all about attacking other peoples right to self determination and exploration of Native spirituality.
Perhaps I am interpreting it wrong and perhaps someone can let me in on why there is all this attacking going on towards other groups.

I can understand that if someone is using Native spirituality or culture to abuse people that that is a horrible and dispicable thing.
What I don't understand is who gives any of these people the authority to think they are the judges and jury on other groups that may be seeking out their heritage and exercising their right to self-determine and religous freedom?
Don't these people that do this realize that is why so many Native descended people do not like to talk about their Native heritage?
Why say you have Indian blood when there are people out there so eager to attack you for claiming who you are?

For along time Indians were hated. Now that there seems to be some respect and admiration for Native people and their culture some few want to tell others that they are not allowed to do this or that. That they are not allowed "to exapropriate" someone elses culture. What does that mean exactly? and who made them culture police?

If someone wants to run around wearing war bonnets and smoking God knows what in peace pipes why is that anyones business except the persons doing that?

If there are people out there that are mixing Native, Euro, and Eastern philosophies/traditions whose business is it to rail against them for exercising their freedoms of religion and association?

Why is it so necessary to pour negative attention on groups that may or may not have a legitimate claim to what their doing?
If they are legite then they will stand the test of time and gather the evidence to show to the skeptics.
Either way if someone or group does something you don't like then don't get involved with them.

Perhaps I am missing a piece of the puzzle on this issue.

[vance hawkins]

That NAFPS website is run by very good and honest people who KNOW about American Indian spirituality. I am tired of fighting this battle over and over and no one caring or listening or helping. I am PROUD to be a NAFPS member.

http://users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/nafps/

where it says --

Introduction

Do you think you are "Indian at heart" or were an Indian in a past life? Do you admire native ways and want to incorporate them into your life and do your own version of a sweat lodge or a vision quest? Have you seen ads, books, and websites that offer to train you to be come a shaman in an easy number of steps, a few days on the weekend, or for a fee?

Have you really thought this all the way through? Have you thought about how native people feel about what you might want to do?

Please think about these important points before you take that fateful step and expend time, money, and emotional investment:

1. Native people DO NOT believe it is ethical to charge money for any ceremony or teaching. Any who charge you even a penny are NOT authentic.

2. Native traditionalists believe the ONLY acceptable way to transmit traditional teachings is orally and face-to-face. Any allegedly traditional teachings in books or on websites are NOT authentic.

3. Learning medicine ways takes decades and must be done with great caution and patience out of respect for the sacred. Any offer to teach you all you need to know in a weekend seminar or two is wishful thinking at best, fraud at worst.

4. Most of these FRAUDULENT operators are not the slightest bit reputable. Some, such as Robert "Ghostwolf" AKA Robert Franzone and Forrest Carter, have actually been convicted of fraud. Some are sexual predators who prey upon their followers. "Sun Bear" a.k.a. Vincent La Duke was a serial rapist who was facing numerous charges when he died, including the rape of girls as young as fourteen.

Women should be extremely wary of any " teacher" who claims sex is part of an alleged "ceremony." Most of these FRAUDULENT operators have been caught making complete fantasies of what many whites WISH natives were like. Another way to say it is that they are outright liars and hoaxers. Some, like Carlos Castaneda, were exposed as long as three decades ago.

You probably are asking yourself, "Aren't any of these people for real and a good way for me to learn?"

Please understand the following points about native spiritual ways:

1.Native belief systems are COMMUNAL, not focused on the individual's faith like Christianity.

2. Native beliefs are TRIBAL-SPECIFIC. There is NO "generic Indian" form of spirituality. There are as many differences from tribe to tribe as there are between Hinduism and the Church of England. No one would think of teaching those two as the same and calling them "Indo-European," yet many of these FRAUDULENT operators teach a thrown together mishmash of bits and pieces of different beliefs.

3. TRADITIONAL elders are very cautious about changing rituals and mixing different customs, it does happen, of course, but only after lengthy discussions that can take decades. FRAUDULENT operators are very casual and haphazard in what they do, in a manner that shows they have no understanding of or respect for the sacred.

4. TRADITIONAL elders DO NOT believe that any ceremony can be done by anyone who feels like it. It's that same caution and respect for the sacred. Yet these FRAUDULENT operators will let anyone do their inaccurate version of a ceremony if they have the money.

Vision quests, for example, are intended for young boys age 12 to 14, but boys don't have much money, so these FRAUDULENT operators sell "quests" for hundreds or thousands to mostly middle-aged men and women.

There is also the matter of telling people they can be shamans and charging them for it. If you were interested in Judaism, would you pay money to someone who said he could make you a rabbi in just one weekend seminar?

If someone did this and then claimed Jewish objections were foolish, we would recognize he was being anti-Semitic. Think about the lack of respect these operators show to native people and beliefs, not mention their own followers, by defrauding people.

Native people DO NOT use the label Shaman.
Think also about how it makes it harder for natives and whites to get along when whites have been given an untrue picture of native cultures.

We have to learn to get along and we can't do that as long as whites give support to operators who push a fraudulent version of what we are like.

We (native people and our supporters) realize that most of you do not know any better, at least not yet, but we hope you learn about these matters from more reputable sources and in a more respectful manner.

If it says New Age or Shamanism on the cover, it's not a good source for learning about natives. Find out which authors can be trusted before you pay money to operators who harm us all.

end of quote

=========================

http://newagefraud.org/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi

It is a forum much like the one at Saponitown. Does anyone care if people who know nothing about Indian culture bastardize Indian traditions into a tradition resembling what they are farmiliar with, making it more palatable to Europeans? No one stands up and says so -- well I care and I have spoken out about it. Will no one else speak out? Does everyone think it is right to do these things?

Ironic, me a Christian (United Methodist -- and everyone at NAFPS knows it and accept it) -- well I seem to be the ONLY person willing to stand up for the rights of REAL American Indian Spirituality. Ironic, ain't it?

well,

good bye

vance

[collins]

I am glad that you responded, because as I stated at the bottom of my post I felt as if I may had been missing a piece of the puzzle. I am not familiar too much on the New Age stuff or hucksters and so I think now that you explained that to me I have a better understanding of what is going on. I'm glad you posted the NAFPS website cause I haven't seen it before.

Just a note, I wasn't commenting on anyone dreaming or that you posted about dreaming, just the Yahoo site.
I prefaced my post stating I only read through a few of the posts there.
I have talked to people in the past that have had run in's with others that have degraded them for trying to search out and uphold their heritage and the particular posts I had read at the Yahoo group "seemed" like more of that same line of attack. I had a friend some years back that was going to a reservation up North for private ceremony and got told at one piont that they didn't want anymore "wide eyes" up there. I have had other friends that have been called "wannabes" just because they may have been associated with one particular person or group in the past. When these friends of mine asked me back then why I didn't get involved in the outside Native community I told them because I didn't want the experiences that they had and that when I did try to go to Pow-wows that I did not feel comfortable there. I also have had the experience of volunteering for a defunct group called The Native American Heritage Center of Texas. I wanted to ask questions and talk to someone there about my heritage, but all I got was a run around.

I have to agree with much of what NAFPS has to say. I can't say I agree with all of it, but for the most part I do. The thing I have an issue with, generally, is people getting lumped in with these other shady characters. People that are genuinly trying to learn about their past and traditions may not even know what is going on and why some may have preconcieved notions about them. The Cherokee group in Arkansas and Missouri are an example. I do not know much about them, but I assume that they must have some reason for organizing and putting as much energy in such an endeavor as it takes to do so. On the Manataka group it is strange because a relative of mine sent me an article about them last week. It was talking about the history of that group and that several different tribal people were involved in annual ceremonies at Hot Springs, Arkansas. It went on to talk about some power struggle they had with control of the group.

Most of what I have witnessed over the years is just simply alot of name calling, infighting, finger pionting, and generally a bunch of chaotic mess. Unfortunatly seeing people treat each other like that has led me to stay completly away from any of it, because it depresses and angers me to see people or hear about people getting treated bad. I hate injustice.

Thanks for the information. It helps me to understand the issues better and the why of it.

[Saponi 1]

Vance, maybe some of the people do not have the same understanding that you do of this topic. I have a tendancy to keep some of my opinions to myself because I end up sounding almost exclusionary...which I am not--I only encourage people to take their time when they are learning about their ancestry, traditions, spirituality etc. I'll relate a story that happened to me many years ago--probably lost a friend because of it: I received a call abuot a family that wanted to enter the circle to dance, I was asked if I would lend some of my regalia out since they might be the same size. I replied "No," and I explained that I did not feel it was appropriate to just 'jump in' with no real knowledge of the dances, the protocal, etc. I also explained that it was best for the family to attend pow-wows, not just one or two in the same area but many, learn the structure of the drum songs etc.
Believe you me, I got a cold shoulder after that. I felt if dancing were important enough--the family would do the research for their regalia, even make it if possible...learn about the traditions etc. Too much was lost for our people to take things in such a cavalier way. I always asked my girls, 'Who are you dancing for today" remember there was a time when we could not dance.

I have known too many people that find out they have indian heritage and the next thing you know--they are "Medicine people", intrepreting dreams--picking up "The Pipe" etc. So I whole heartedly agree with Vance and others on here that use caution and urge caution.

I suppose the best way to put it is this--if this culture is that important, sacred even to most of us--then we must give the reverence and respect due to those that walked before us.

I guess I would ask do you really feel a guy with a 'plastic war bonnet' or the new age crystal gazers honor ancestors that were mascred at Wounded Knee, Walked the Trail of Tears, suffered under the repressive policies of Walter Plecker, or the Freeman of Oklahoma that still fight for equality? I can never claim to have experienced the pain and heart break of the Mission schools, I can not say that I had a great grandmother who was shot in the back during the great Indian Wars, I can not say that I know what it is like to have lived the life of the some of our brothers and sisters in the plains...but I can always strive to honor our ancestors in a good way. And everyone who asks me for input, advice and support I have given--even when they were not comfortable with the responses.

Saponi1
AKA Nahyssan2003

[Forest]

Just my opinion, but I sorta came to the conclusion long ago that most anyone who identified himself as a "shaman", "medicine person", or "spiritual leader" was out to scam me, one way or another....

In most native communities, folks who really fullfill those rolls wouldn't have to advertise.... Everyone would know who they were.

My experience has been that these folks are generally "a legend in their own mind", but not much else.

As my grampa used to say, "Son, the empty jug makes the loudest noise"

[Bill Childs]

Vance,
You're certainly not alone on this subject but you've done such a thoroughal job of rebutting the "sham -ans" that I didn't realize you needed any support. I certainly can't add anything to what you've said.
Keep Standing, Brother.
Bill

[Bill Childs]

Lewis, we all learn as we grow. You are as welcome here as anyone, Saponi or not. Contribute what you can, learn what you can. I can't say we are very "pan-Indian" in outlook, but we certainly don't draw the kind of divisive boundaries that most groups draw. If we can help you, we will. If no one responds to one of your posts, it only says that no has anything to offer that they think will help you about that specific inquiry, nothing more.
Bill

[mrspatino]

OK Vance! YEA Brother I am with you all the way and you have my voice believe me, I have been at enough protests to stand up and yell and stop ignorant Indian degradation on the street! You are saying what I am saying we need to make a choice! Hearts in, if we want to reclaim our culture it's time to step up! Regardless of our skin color or not if you say your Indian than dont make it a novelty imerse yourself with out fear. Education, Education Education! This board is not here for novelty. It is here for redescovering roots and reclaiming them and shaping a true Native community. I am sorry if I offend anyone but i have not put so much of my heart in while I am here to be taken down by people who think this is a joke or were a bunch of new agers singin on a tom tom. COME ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am sick of tired of bein sick and tired, we are a people who are so proud and many of us have put it on the line, I may be in Michigan but everytime I stand up for NDN rights I am fighting for us to be a community and have a voice. New Agers/Twinkies, BIA they will take my traditions over my cold dead body!

HOKA ! Wow I am fired UP!
PILA MIYA

[mrspatino]

Oh and you know we would not have problems with new agers if they hadn stole half of Native culture to twist and make ther own claiming it as their own ancient religion when all it is, is a group of people wanting to folow their own destiny and not Creators. I dont have alot of nice things to say about them. Thats not to say they might or might not be nice people but I see them as cowards trying to form faith and spirituality according to whatever laws they choose or sound good at the time. I have had my own experiences with new agers some good some bad but what I noticed the most is that they are lost, and trying to find what is right for them because they dont want to follow the Ten Commandments or Traditional way, neither of which is a cake walk! ANd one way or the other there are laws to follow! ANd they are Creators Laws.