I think I've found our emblem [Archive]

Linda

09-02-2005, 01:34 AM

Here is our artist's, Grady Smith's, first draft. I love it. We're thinking about putting it on a 2" disk instead of 1.5", and I'm thinking the inner ring of triangles should appear to be sitting on the middle circle. On the artifact, they look like little huts sitting on a plane together. On this, it's resembling more of a sunburst.

http://www.saponitown.com/images/saponiwhelk2.jpg

He had some very interesting musings as he was deep into this design.

im no archaeologist, (like they know anything other than dating ancient items) but it looking at this design reminds me of the blowhole of the universe. of course there are normally 4 direction coming out of that, but in Creek belief the blowhole is in the pleiades. a star, a sun, "perhaps" this could be a piece showing where the master of breath breathed life into the world.
His site is at www.creekcarver.com. Please check it out.

BTW, I need to make a correction. The artifact we are basing this on was found in Hillsborough. The triangle motif is the same as on a Gaston pipe. The location of Hillsborough doesn't change anything for me. Our people were wandering back and forth from those two locales regularly. It's all the same.

lynellarainhawk

09-02-2005, 06:38 PM

Linda,

Oh, this is going to be very awsome! I think you are right, the inner triagles should be "on" the inner circle. They would appear more like teepees. Bigger could be better??????;) Love & Light, Lynella.

Linda

09-03-2005, 12:52 PM

I think this is our final draft:

http://www.saponitown.com/images/saponi-whelk4.jpg

I love it. If this looks good to you all, I say let's start putting in our orders.

We've tried to stay true to the artifacts, while producing something practical and wearable. This disc is 2" round, apparently smaller than the original, making it necessary to sacrifice some of the dots. I'm comfortable with this. If it were precise to the original, I'd tend to feel it might be too sacred for everyday wear. If that makes any sense. It would also likely be too heavy to wear very long

Patty

09-03-2005, 05:09 PM

This looks beautiful to me!

Just let me know how to pay the artist!

Patty

Linda

09-03-2005, 05:33 PM

Here is a pay pal button to make your order with.

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techteach

09-03-2005, 05:39 PM

Linda,
I am getting an error message with this.

Cindy

Patty

09-03-2005, 07:51 PM

Me too.

lynellarainhawk

09-03-2005, 09:25 PM

Linda,

Sorry it took me so long. I absolutely love this. I think it is wonderful and I'll order right away. As soon as the link works. Thank you SO MUCH! Love & Light, Lynella.

P.S.
Yeah, the link doesn't want to play!:confused:

CreekCarver

09-03-2005, 10:16 PM

if you will contact me, I can send you a Money Request via Paypal. otherwise write me for my address to send payment.
Grady Smith
(850)643-2536
CreekCarver@aol.com
www.CreekCarver.com

lynellarainhawk

09-04-2005, 12:08 AM

THANK YOU! I will call you from my cell phone tomorrow approximately 11:15 a.m. Denver time. If I don't catch you, I'll try again later. Your work is beautiful! Lynella.

Linda

09-04-2005, 12:37 AM

Grady has asked if we want to put "ESDA" on the back of the gorget? (Eastern Siouan Descendant's Association) I'd like it on the back of mine. Maybe that should be an option each of us can decide on individually.

lynellarainhawk

09-04-2005, 07:35 PM

Linda,

:) OH YES! Awsome! Me too! Love & Light, Lynella.

CreekCarver

09-04-2005, 08:13 PM

http://www.saponitown.com/images/saponiartpiece.jpg

This Saponi Gorget is carved in a shell of the ancients. The shell came from a mound that Hernando De Soto himself looked at when he landed in Florida in 1536. It had been there for many years prior. This is a replica of the original artifact shown at the beginning of this thread. Beads are hand carved and the piece is secured in a shadow box for display. Due to the age and fragility of these shells, it is an art piece. I have a limited amount of Pre Columbian shell, however, the Saponi Gorget Replica is available for $125.

[Please note: this is not the emblem piece we have been talking about. That's available for $40, plus shipping. This is something on much more valuable ancient shell. - lkc]

CreekCarver

09-04-2005, 08:25 PM

if the photo doesnt show, please contact me at CreekCarver@aol.com and i will send a photo

lynellarainhawk

09-08-2005, 10:43 AM

Creek Carver,

Grady, I am so excited I can hardly wait. Any day now, huh? Wow, you're really fast! Thank You Again! Lynella.

Kalisetsi

09-08-2005, 02:09 PM

I would like to order one also. Do I need to be added to a list?

Linda

09-09-2005, 11:12 PM

I thought I answered you, Kalisetsi. Just contact the shell carver at the address further up on this page, Creek Carver. Grady Smith

Kalisetsi

09-10-2005, 12:46 AM

I thought I answered you, Kalisetsi. Just contact the shell carver at the address further up on this page, Creek Carver. Grady Smith

Linda, he sent me an e-mail. Thank you! :)

lynellarainhawk

09-10-2005, 05:40 PM

O.K. :) These are AWSOME. I love this. You all really gotta' get one!

1_optimistic

09-29-2005, 01:59 PM

Where is the Occoneechee State Park museum?

Erica

Forest

09-29-2005, 03:41 PM

The museum is in the visitor's center, which doubles as the Park office.

1_optimistic

09-29-2005, 04:03 PM

Thank you :)

Erica

Spirit

10-08-2005, 06:32 PM

I am very interested maybe I can find away to use it in my wedding.

Spirit

10-08-2005, 06:37 PM

Exactly where is this located I did not know one even existed.

Kalisetsi

10-27-2005, 03:47 AM

Creek Carver's gorget arrived today and it is quite beautiful. The intricacy of detail on the shell is very delicate. I love it! The necklace is very similiar to the picture of the framed piece. The shell is finer and thiner than the one in the picture.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/kalisetsi/Gorget.jpg
The shell is more like this ..the in in Linda's picture from page 2 of this thread..it's very nice
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/kalisetsi/saponi-whelk4.jpg

Linda, I made the picture a little smaller, if that is okay?

CreekCarver

11-01-2005, 03:16 AM

mrs. linda sent me some photos of artifacts found, believed to be a Saponi piece. the new piece is similar to the gorget concerning the use of dots. i am curious if ya'll would like to see a Saponi earring set? email me or post here and i'll check back occasionally.

reach me at CreekCarver@aol.com , www.CreekCarver.com or (850)643-2536.

thank you, MVTO!
kvlvfe

Linda

11-01-2005, 08:34 AM

Absolutely, email me pictures and I'll put them up here.

sissipaha@saponitown.com

CreekCarver

11-16-2005, 06:20 AM

here is the earring i have come up with, i believe Linda approves since she sent me the url to the picture. let me know if anyone is interested.
http://www.saponitown.com/images/saponi-earring.jpg

quest for facts

11-16-2005, 06:20 PM

Could I get a pair of those earrings?

techteach

11-16-2005, 07:35 PM

Creekcarver,
I also am interested. Can you email me the price or post it if you feel comfortable doing this?

Techteach

lynellarainhawk

11-21-2005, 11:13 AM

CreekCarver,

:) E-mail me with particulars. You know I'm interested! Love & Light, Lynella.

CreekCarver

11-29-2005, 07:00 AM

earrings are made from whelk and can be unstained (as pictured) or stained (like the saponi ESDA gorget). 1" diameter hung on silver ear hooks, choice of silver, brass or copper bead on wire. silver bead shall be default. $40 + $5 s&h.
email any questions or requests to creekcarver@aol.com.
thank you.

1_optimistic

11-29-2005, 08:39 AM

Occoneechee Park is located outside of Clarksville, VA (Mecklenburg Co.)

Erica:)

techteach

01-28-2006, 03:14 PM

Folks,

I wanted to refresh this thread. We have several new forum folks who might want to send for the gorget and/or earrings from Creekcarver.

Take a look at the pictures on this thread and see if you are interested in purchasing this (I am not a salesman and don't get a cut either. I just like mine and wanted others who might want to get one to see the picture.) . Email creekcarver and he will send you a bill.

Techteach

Red Metis

01-30-2006, 01:28 PM

I am interested. The work is beautiful.

techteach

01-30-2006, 10:14 PM

Red Metis,
Check Creekcarver's email, about 5 postings ago, and send him an email saying that you want to order the gorget and/or earrings of the Eastern Siouan Descendent's Association. You can tell him to put the initials on the back if you want.

Techteach

kathleen 6

02-23-2006, 12:00 PM

Count me in to if not too late. I would love to work that desing into clay.

Kathleen Rogalla

techteach

02-23-2006, 01:17 PM

Kathleen,
I think you just need to email Creekcarver and make arrangements for the gorget through him. I doubt it is too late.

Techteach

Linda

02-23-2006, 09:40 PM

Yes, Creekcarver, could you send me a PayPal link for the earrings?

PappyDick

04-15-2006, 10:31 AM

Has anybody mentioned that the original artifact may have been a "buzz button," used by a shaman to make a noise similar to that of a whirlwind? The only NDN reference to it I found easily was to its use by the Fourche Maline people in Oklahoma. Anyway it is ancient and widespread (globally), sort of like a bull roarer but I think a little less common.

I'll paste in some instructions I found on the Web, by an Australian named Peter Macinnis. I wouldn't recommend doing this with your $40 reproductions, but I'd suggest that is what the artifact was made for. (As opposed to jewellery.) Especially if we are sure that symbol represents a whirlwind.
________________

A buzz button

You will need a large button, and some tough thin thread or
string. Put the two ends of the string through two holes in the
button (if it is a four-hole button, use diagonally opposite
holes), and tie the two ends of the string securely.

Loop two fingers of each hand through the string with the
button in between your hands, and flip the button to make it
turn once or twice. By alternately pulling and releasing the
string, the button will start to rotate, producing a characteristic
roaring noise. Harder pulling produces faster rotation, and a
higher tone.

The main thing to keep in mind here is that the button is
spinning slightly irregularly, and that these irregularities come
at regular intervals.

kathleen 6

04-15-2006, 01:37 PM

How interesting. I wonder how this was supposed to help the patient?

Kathleen

PappyDick

04-16-2006, 08:35 AM

I'm not sure that everything a shaman does has to do with patients or illness. (It might be related to weather, for example.) But to the extent that it does, the humming or buzzing sound made by the whirling disc is supposed (in a few cultures that maintained the magical use of it at least into the nineteenth century, if not to the present) to stand for the voices of ancestors or gods. Which, of course, only the shaman could understand and interpret.

Another school of thought holds that the repetitive sound (interrupted regularly, as the disc changes its direction of spin) sounds like human sighing or "heavy breathing," and was associated with fertility or erotic rites.

The gizmo is sold today as a "folk toy" and is called among other things a Whirlygig and a Buzz Saw (both of which terms, however, also refer to something altogether different). Russian ethnomusicologists have issued a recording of a female shaman (is that a shawoman?) playing one, in the Amur River valley; their liner notes in English call it a "buzz disk." In ancient Greece it was called "Iynx," also the name of a minor goddess, and the source of our word "jinx" (which still has something to do with magic).

The Fourche Maline people (to whom I referred in my last posting about this artifact) are usually dated about 800 BC to 1000 AD. So we are not talking about a folk toy from, like, Berea College Student Industries. This instrument is at least as old as the DNA that came across the Bering Sea with our fairly remote Siberian ancestors.

By the way, Kathleen6, have you made a ceramic one yet? Somebody out your way used to make ceramic sand dollars, we have a couple as Christmas tree ornaments. Seems to me the technology would be about the same.

kathleen 6

04-16-2006, 11:26 AM

Hi, I love getting this information. Thank you for posting it. No, I have to say that I haven't made anything with clay lately. I'm going to though. I just finished an art show and had to spend time making paintings for it. Somehow, I think having this knowledge will make my clay whirlwinds better. That sounds funny, but I believe it.

Kathleen

PappyDick

04-25-2006, 03:54 PM

I ran across a sketchy reference that might be important to somebody who wants support for the ancient kinship of the northwestern Plains Siouan people with Occaneechi, Saponi, or whoever has the best claim on that disc/whirlwind artifact. Be patient with the spellings, and the interpretation of the object as a "toy" (if it was for shamanistic magic, it was sacred). Here's the note:

Stewart Culin reported (3) on the appearance of this toy concept among the native peoples in North America. Some of these were: the Algonquians of Oklahoma and Montana, Eskimos of Hudson Bay, Greenland and Alaska, Shosheans of Arizona and California, Sioan of Montana and South Dakota, Yuman of Arizona and Zunian of New Mexico.

3) Stewart Culin, Games of the North American Indians, Dover Publications, Inc., New York, 1975.

The website also has a nice photo of a little girl spinning one of the discs, which is probably more useful than anybody's verbal description, if you haven't previously seen how it works. Check it out at http://home.frognet.net/~ejcov/disc.html

kathleen 6

04-26-2006, 10:34 AM

Hey, this is great. I hadn't thought of it being used as a toy.
Kathleen

Ed Yancey

04-29-2006, 12:03 PM

Linda and all Interested, I just found this site last night . It gives information on the excavation of the site and where the shell carving discussed was found. In this instance it was found on the body worn as a gorget or pendant. There was also a smaller pendant carving found. I will give the web site and if it works then fine, if not try going to Google and type in Excavation Occaneechi Town and that should pull it up on your search engine. If not then contact me at eyancey@ec.rr.com and I will try and help. Once on that page click on Artifacts , then next on Shell Ornaments, then on Pendants. In the article you can click on either large pendant or small. Read the entire article which will give more information about this item and it's use. John Lawson gives a early description. One article on this site mentions a rattlesnake design used in some way but I could find no more about that. Thanks for handling the chaos with grace and love. We are all searching and sometimes get frustrated. Ed
I am going to post this information at the beginning just in case someone will see it there also.

Ed Yancey

04-29-2006, 12:06 PM

Sorry--one of my Seinor Moments! I forgot to give the site information. www.ibiblio.org/dig/ "Good Reading and Much Information" in fact a CD Rom can be purchased. Ed

Linda

04-29-2006, 12:40 PM

Thanks, Ed, for locating that, and for the kind words.

PappyDick

04-29-2006, 05:37 PM

There's a typo in the url Ed posted for this artifact, should be www.ibiblio.org/dig/

Interesting stuff, you have to hop around a bit to discover that the shell object in question was found on the sternum of a child of about 3 1/2, plus or minus a year. He or she was buried with quite a few other things of both Euroamerican and native manufacture. The gorget may have been jewellery, as assumed by the archaeologists; but it might also have been the little kid's favorite toy. (See the photo linked in my last posting on this thread, in which a child of just that age is spinning one.) Anyway if it was (or ever had been) for shamanistic use, that usage had probably ceased before it was buried with the child.

I'd still contend that its typology is among the aerophones (like the four jews harps also found in the Occaneechi Town dig); and as a musical instrument it differs from them in being probably not of European origin. But I'm not on the warpath about this, and as art, it is just what Linda said in the first place -- an excellent emblem for the Eastern Siouan Descendants Association.

Ed Yancey

04-29-2006, 09:22 PM

Thanks for the correction on the url for that site. I entered this information in two different places so that other's would be able to see it and look it up if interested. On my second entry I remembered my Grandmother(of Native American Descent) who took the time when busy sewing to go into her basket and pull out a "large" black or brown button. She then took thread and a chunk of beeswax and waxed the thread then threading it through the button and tying the ends. She carefully placed the string just right on my finders and hand and then showed me how to wind the button up and then began an adventure of motion,exercise, and sound that lasted for hours. The intensity of pleasure I felt was as great as my imagination and I gurantee I had plenty of that in those days. My Grandmother's GGrandfather was known as The Shell Man and so this article has a particular interest to me. I have been told this could have been the same as shaman of holy man and that he would have prepared ornaments and objects used in ritual or sacred rites and dances. Maybe someone out there has some knowledge to share on that identification. Thanks again Pappy! Ed

Linda

04-29-2006, 10:23 PM

That is an interesting notion. Wonder where it will lead . . .

PappyDick

04-29-2006, 10:56 PM

I don't know if the buzz button concept will (or should) catch on with others. But if it does, they might want to know the original type of string to use. This is from William Byrd's Histories of the Dividing Line betwixt Virginia and North Carolina (New York: Dover, 1967), p. 286, referring to the date Nov. 10, 1728:

One of the men, who had been an old Indian Trader, brought me a Stem of Silk Grass, which was as big as my little Finger...

The Indians use it in all their little Manufactures, twisting a Thread of it that is prodigiously Strong. Of this they make their Baskets and the Aprons which their Women wear around their Middles, for Decency's Sake. These are long enough to wrap quite round them and reach down to their Knees, with a Fringe on the under part by way of Ornament...

As this species of Silk Grass is much Stronger than Hemp, I make no doubt but Sail Cloth and Cordage might be made of it with considerable Improvement.
____________

From the photo in the archaeological report on the Occaneechi Town dig, it appears that the original shell object (ornament or instrument, as the case may be) was just about 7 cm., or 2 3/4 inches, in diameter. It was apparently made from a piece of the outer whorl of a conch shell, shaped into a disc, rather than from a shell that was more circular in its natural state. Others are welcome to disagree with this interpretation -- that's the way it looks to me.

Ed Yancey

04-30-2006, 08:44 AM

Can you identify the plant Silk Grass for me and where it usually is found growing? I am assuming the skirts were woven and the method of weaving would be interesting to know also. Would the fringe have been of the same material or something else.
I believe much of the ancient shell carving involved Whelk which is conch or some type of the conch family or a term for that shell when used.

PappyDick

04-30-2006, 10:32 AM

Found on the "Virtual Jamestown" web site, this is from AMERICAN DRAWINGS OF JOHN WHITE, 1577-1590, by Paul Hulton and David Beers Quinn (U of NC Press, 1964):

Small dip-nets are commonly reported by early sources among the eastern Indians south of the Great Lakes. The dip-net in the stern here is identified by Beverley as 'a Net made of Silk Grass, which they use in Fishing their Weirs' --as shown in the background. One of the plants called 'silk grass' was Milkweed, Asclepias sp., which was used by the Carolina Algonkians. Milkweed fibre cords have been recovered archaeologically in Maryland, and it has been suggested that the 'kynd of grasse, which they call Pemmenaw', which the Virginia Algonkians used for fishnet fibres was this plant. Curiously, about 1915 Speck collected among the Machapunga (a group of highly assimilated Indians in coastal North Carolina, perhaps descended from the aboriginal Algonkians), a fish-net made by the Indians with European technique but of Asclepias syriaca -a direct historical descendant of the net drawn by White?
____________

I don't know that this was the silk grass mentioned by Wm. Byrd in November of 1728, but milkweed is a common plant, producing long fibers. Byrd was unable to describe the plant well because the specimen he saw (in late fall) was dry and had shed its leaves.

Byrd also doesn't say which specific Indians were using silk grass for twine, skirts, etc. He may have been a little east of Saponi country, but I believe the hunter for his surveying party at this date was Saponi.

There is a well-reviewed book by Stephen C. Ausband, Byrd's Line: a Natural History (U of VA Press, 2002) that probably answers your question very well. But I don't have the book.

CreekCarver

05-23-2006, 08:29 AM

Here is a new Saponi gorget inspired by the artifact. it is carved on black mother of pearl, however i have a plethora of shells for you to choose from if you want one of these. for a 2" gorget it will be $75 + $5s/h. price will vary for larger or smaller pieces.

White Hawk

06-07-2006, 02:18 AM

Attached is a picture of this design on a gorget AND a metal SPOON! Occaneeche Town, late seventeeth century. The photo is in the book, The Indians' New World - Catawbas and their Neighbors From European Contact Through the Era of Removal, by James H. Merrell.

If the design was used on a spoon, it had to be extremely important, and a very commonly used decoration.

Tom

06-07-2006, 05:59 PM

From the image I cannot see the design on the back of the spoon interesting if it is (maybe) the same one from the gorget. I'll try and find the book , thanx for posting the reference.
Has any one seen this image on the Occaneechi files?

Tom

06-07-2006, 06:14 PM

That is a very nice piece of shell, black or gold lip is really special.
Have you seen ammolite it is a gem stone that I mine for in Canada actually a fossilized shell from about 175 million years ago.
Comes in all colors and shades , various crush patterns or complete fozzils.

Ed Yancey

06-07-2006, 10:57 PM

Tom, I believe the two items shown can be found on the web site involving the search for Ocaneechi Town. These digs were conducted near Hillsboro,NC and the Eno River. Linda had these images on this site earlier and somewhat larger to view. If you are ever in Clarksville, Va. be sure and go to the Oconeechi State Park and at the main office you can view the picture of the original object and a wonderful reproduction on shell hanging near it. I think there are links on earlier discussions on this thread that would lead you to that web site. If I am wrong I would be glad to look it up and share it. Ed

PappyDick

06-08-2006, 10:45 AM

The "Excavating Occaneechi Town" web site is at www.ibiblio.org/dig/

On the home page click on ARTIFACTS. Then from the menu at the top click on European Trade Artifacts (for the spoon), then from the list on the left select Food Consumption Group, and it's with Utensils, in the metal group near the bottom of that page. It's the second latten spoon, and the link with the best photo is "geometric designs." From ARTIFACTS click on Shell Ornaments, for the thing they call a gorget (which I have suggested is a buzzer).

The decorated spoon was in Burial 8, and the gorget in Burial 1. Both burials were of small children of about the same age, estimated at 3 1/2 years, plus or minus one.

Neither the photo nor the description of the spoon is very clear, but I tend to agree that it is essentially the same design -- that on the spoon being much less clear, and a good bit less elaborate, than the one on the somewhat larger gorget. It seems to have three arms instead of six on the "whirlwind" (also sometimes called a swastika, but don't read any 20th century history into that). The rim part of the design is described as "a stylized chevron... arranged in a series around the bowl perimeter." In an early message on this thread, it was hinted that the chevron shapes might be tepees. I doubt that, but maybe they are something. Mountains? Anyway, they are included as part of the composition, in both cases.

I believe the photo already posted by White Hawk shows the spoon after it was restored, perhaps by electrolysis. The site report shows the spoon larger, in color, and in focus, but what you see there also includes a lot of corrosion.

Ed Yancey

06-08-2006, 11:09 AM

Go back to page one of this thread Linda has a nice large picture of this artifact. Scroll down on that page and you will see a picture of the replica that is in the museum area of the Oconeechi State park main office.
Ed

dovelady

06-30-2006, 10:05 AM

I wasn't around much when this design was being discussed, but I'd like to ask a question.

How do we know what these symbols mean? Has anyaone been able to figure them out yet or been able to at least confirm that they are Saponi?? I'm not sure I'd want to wear a symbol that I don't know what the meaning is.

Creating a symbol to represent us is a serious matter. As I said, I wasn't around much when all this was being decided and I don't believe I put my 2 cents worth in at the time, so I have no right to question anything that's been done already. But I would like to know the reasoning behind adopting this symbol.

I'm not trying to be confronting here at all. I really want to learn and be informed about this . :)

Thanks

PappyDick

06-30-2006, 11:41 AM

I believe the symbol was more or less christened as a whirlwind in messages #6-9 on this thread. Since I believe the shell object was meant to be twirled rapidly, I don't have a problem with viewing it that way; but there are many interpretations to this ancient symbol -- more commonly found, and discussed, in a four armed (or legged) version, and called a swastika (see, for instance, the Wikipedia article under that word).

But message #78 by White Hawk reminds us that the same Occaneechi Town dig revealed the bowl of a broken pewter spoon, similarly decorated. It was likewise found in the grave of a child of around 3 years old. The spoon's design is simpler, and the rather dim (corroded) symbol looks 3-legged, to me. That or the six-legged form would tend to be called a "fylfot," rather than a swastika. I don't think we really know an original, overarching meaning of the fylfot; and I don't think the pewter spoon bowl was meant to be twirled.

Both objects also had zig zag patterns that were probably symbolic, and we probably won't ever know what they represent either. But that won't keep some of us from trying to guess.

collins

06-30-2006, 10:35 PM

Symbolism in art tends to have various meaning and can depend upon the culture utilizing them. In this case we are dealing with Southeastern Siouans. Native American symbolism in art has had many books written on the topic. If you take each symbol and seperate them out you can do look ups on them and discover what they could have meant or what was most probable. In the end they mean what the artists or culture wants them to mean or what they understand them to mean. These symbols from what I have seen or read about tend to be pretty basic and common symbols among various tribes, but especially Siouans. Usually jagged lightening like symbols depict the thunderbeings or the power of nature especially the air and fire. It can represent life energy. It can also be used to depict a person or animals connection to that power and thus their status and how they are viewed in that particular culture. Some symbols or marking can represent calendric cycles of time or seasons. Some can represent relationship to how a community was stratified. Most swastica or whirlewind symbols mean movement and motion. Sometimes this could be representive of fire, migration, spiritual growth, or, for the real far out, a portal to the other side or another world. It is possible that the V shaped markings represented people or houses which would tend to indicate a communal stratification and the whirlwind could be a representation of the central fire.
If you look through some Native American beading books you will notice some Siouan designs that are strikingly similar. Look to their meanings as a reference, but also understand that the environment that a tribe lived in determined much of their understanding of the world be it spiritual or physical. Another take on it would be a sun symbol as the sun was revered for bringing life and for purification.
Perhaps Ed or Linda could explain it better.

dovelady

07-01-2006, 12:56 AM

Thank you Bill and Pappy :)

As I was looking at the disk again I was reminded of the design on my Grandmother's tunic. It has this zigzag design on the bottom.

You can see a copy of it here that Tom asked Linda to post.

http://www.saponitown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=425&highlight=dovelady

It's under Family Lore , then Tom's Family.

This is a picture of my Grandmother Elsie May Groat Dunn circa 1927/28. She is holding my father. The other people in the picture are my grandfather, my two uncles as little boys and my grandfather's parents.

:)

Barb

Ed Yancey

07-01-2006, 11:13 PM

Dovelady, you have gotten most all the information on this item that answers your questions. It was recovered from an eastern Siouan site and you know the other particulars. Much of the possibilities of significance and meaning has been explained also. I remember only one other suggestion with the holes in the center being the blow hole through which our Creator blew into existance and that could lend itself to the stick figues being a whirlwind. Some have noted a whirlwind has 6 of these figues. I believe they could represent mankind or humanity and the V shape figues could be anything from mountains or mountain ranges to tents, huts or living abodes. Then they may just be that familiar zig zag figue used by so many of the worlds cultures. It is significant to me as not only being eastern Siouan but if as some suppose the two central holes would have been threaded with sinew or thong and then twirled making a whirring or humning sound even when the holy man was praying over a person. Significant enough to say the holy man could pray but the need of the person would be met by the Spirit of God moving upon the situation and not the man doing the praying. Ed

Tom

07-06-2006, 06:26 PM

Hello well, I have given this some thought and would like to say that when I add my 2 bits I try and include some images and texts to go along with my thoughts, however before I do this I need some better images of the 2 objects and of the objects for the direction of whaty Iam getting at.
Here's a hint, the iamges appear on both the spoon and the gorget, 2 very different objects., exactly how the gorget was used is a guess the spoon is pretty obvious, (maybe).
I have seen the outer desing on some very old adena work, that is the apparent zig zag line but with the areas filled in with lines that follow the slant of the defining line.
The line on the center on the gorget maybe a minature version of something larger, and keeping this in mind I'd suggest a search of simular patterns.
Trying to define what a gorget may have been used for is like aking what is a button, bead or washer used for and how, things with holes in them can be used any way that we see fit., to apply one specific use is really setting the theory up for a fall, so be careful, what it means to me may not be what it means to another.
In my next post I hope to have some images and references to them to add here.
I have to run but will get back to this soon. Tom.

PappyDick

07-06-2006, 07:27 PM

As Tom said, "Trying to define what a gorget may have been used for is like asking what is a button, bead or washer used for and how, things with holes in them can be used any way that we see fit." That's true, but one might urge a similar caution about calling something a gorget because it is a round shell thing, with some designs, and some holes.

Lexically, a gorget is something to protect the throat. The southeastern Indian ones are usually too small and flimsy to be of much use in that regard (apart from magical use). But they do almost universally have the two holes (for the thong or twine from which they were suspended) along an edge; and if the engraved design has a top and bottom, the holes are on the top edge. They knew about gravity, and how to hang something -- if that was what they meant to do with it. See the numerous illustrations in Tribes that Slumber; or those at the following web site:

http://www.mississippian-artifacts.com/html/shellorn.html

The Occaneechi Town shell "ornament" has holes bracketing its center. I think the maker knew where he was drilling, did it on purpose, and had some purpose other than hanging it on a necklace. (It could of course be something like a belt decoration, but it was found over the sternum of the child with whom it was buried. It may be logical to assume from that placement, and its general compatibility with similar shell objects we call gorgets, that it was part of a necklace; but I think that assumption ignores its inherent geometry.)

Tom

07-07-2006, 05:00 PM

I agree, they may not have all been used as pendants of sorts, aswell I did post earlier that they nmay have been used as turkey beard roach spreaders, I cannot say for sure weather or not all of these round shell disacs were used the same way, there is one that has a holes drilled on the edge so that the image is side ways, odd but true.
at any rate, we can contemplate the artists intended use, but with out hard evidence we still cannot be 100% positive of what these shell discs were used for.
Many years ago when I first seen these objects I was not convinced that they were mearly ornaments, but at the same time I cannot say that they were all tools either, but Iam open to all theories.

Tom

07-07-2006, 05:02 PM

double post deleted

dovelady

07-07-2006, 05:34 PM

"as turkey beard roach spreaders"

What the heck are these?

Tom

07-07-2006, 05:56 PM

There was once a small roach made from the beards of turkey's, these are always round and worn at the back of the heard, they may have been spread like the long porcupine hair raoches that men attending pow wows do today!

dovelady

07-07-2006, 06:05 PM

Ahh..Thanks Tom. I had all kinds of visions in my head. LOL

CreekCarver

07-19-2006, 10:12 PM

In response to the debate over the artifact being or not being a gorget I'm posting this engraving based on a drawing by Le Moyne. It is of the Timucuan Indians of Florida. The three men in the foreground are wearing gorgets suspended by holes in the center.

PappyDick

07-19-2006, 11:02 PM

"The three men in the foreground are wearing gorgets suspended by holes in the center."

Well, maybe. Or Viking shields hung from the pommel, or copper sundials on their chests, or something. Anyway, not three inch diameter discs made of the flat part of a conch shell. And not covering their throats -- which is what a gorget is nominally to protect.

Everybody is entitled to a personal opinion, but mine (of the Occaneechi shell artifact in question) is not affected by this fanciful picture (of something else).

dovelady

07-19-2006, 11:38 PM

I don't know very much about the history of these kinds of things. It would be great to know since we are trying to find out more about our history/cluture/etc. Especially if some here are thinking of using it for some kind of symbol representing this group. But since we can talk about it until we are blue in the face and still not know. and probably not all agree, I'd hate to see a heated debate on this artifact. It's just wonderful to be able to look at it anyway and appreciate that it belonged to a child who was probably very loved and cherished.

It obviously was something very precious - either to the child, the parents, or to their customs or religeous beliefs or it wouldn't have been buried with him/her. Just MHO.

collins

07-20-2006, 12:54 AM

Gorgets originally were a piece of armor that protected the throat in European culture as well as probably other cultural war regalia/armor.
If I'm not mistaken the term "gorget" came into usage after the beginings of archeology and anthropolgy. I think the word was utilized for classification of burial objects such as large center pieces of necklaces or chest ornamentation/armor.
In the Southeast as well as the Northeast the gorget became mainly utilized as a status symbol, ranking badge, or passport. Indians often times could not travel in white populated areas or out side Native controled lands with out these passports. Note that the King of England sent the Pamunkey Queen a metal gorget. Metal gorgets were struck and passed out to various tribes as passports and as symbols of treatied peace or for trade ranking.

Could a gorget get used as a toy, a sacred tool, or just plain simple ornimentation? Yes to all the above.

As to meanings you may have to dig and research some of it out to get more precise information as trying to post in this format would involve a couple of days of sitting here typing it all out. In the end the basics of these designs have been posted here at this forum either in this thread or elsewhere on the board. You can also do a google on gorget, Native design, etc, etc.
The meaning of designs and motifs can and do change over time. As culture evolves so do meanings of the material culture.

Personal Opinion:
My opinion on this would be use what designs are meaningful and supported for you. Don't be afraid of utilizing your culture. If you want a gorget center piece for a necklace, choker, or regalia go for it. If you want a gorget to use as a toy or sacred object, go for it. I often think we worry way to much what others will say or think. I think there was a posting some where on the board about using designs or objects that came from graves. Remember the Saponi had burial rights that other tribes came to them for. They were a mortuary people. They saw it all as a seamless cycle of life. I don't think our ancestors would have had any problem at all with the usage of such things. In fact they probably would have utilized what they had especially since some of them carried their ancestors bones around with them.
On the other hand a Lakota or Southwest tribe would be horrified or put off by such things only because they have their on ways that are not ours. The distinction must be made clear here. The idea of using a motif or design comes from the need to have a physical representation of the character or general personality of the group involved. The gorget came from an Occaneechi site. The designs have been found on other Southeastern Siouan objects. The general meanings are known from literature and or oral traditions. I think this makes the case for utilizing the symbol for the Southeastern Siouan Descendants Association.

The issue of where the holes are placed is really neither here nor there. Some gorgets have holes on both ends. Some in the middle, and some may have holes all over the place. The issue is mute because the original intent can only be asked of the persons that buried the people and they themselves are long since gone. If a child picks up a large bead puts it on a string and swings it up and down then you may have the first hints at a yo-yo. If I pick up a plastic tube and swing it around I can get a pretty cool noise going that would be great for replacing a bull whirler. Is the plastic tube sacred or the persons intent in using it in ceremony. Is a large bead a toy or potentional yo-yo. Maybe, but origianlly it was a large bead. It is really all so much samantics. Native American "Gorgets" hung as low as the stomache and as high as the throat. "Gorgets" were worn one at a time or up to three or four at a time. "Gorgets" were worn as necklaces, attached to clothing, and worn in the hair. They may have even been used as toy or sacred object.

On Creek Carver, rock on, your artistic talent is awesome.

dovelady

07-20-2006, 03:48 AM

Thanks Collins :) I didn't know about the Saponi being mortuary kind of people. Yikes. Kind of gives me the creeps. LOL

And the other information was very interesting too.

Thank you for posting it.

PappyDick

07-20-2006, 12:24 PM

I agree with Dovelady, at least in principle, that debates such as this don't need to be heated. To quote myself (message #71 above), "I'm not on the warpath about this, and as art, it is just what Linda said in the first place -- an excellent emblem for the Eastern Siouan Descendants Association."

I also agree with most of what Collins has just said. I wouldn't know about the Saponi being mortuary people; seems to me that would have been time and place specific, not the general business they were in. But the excavated Occaneechi Town may well have been such a time and place; that seems very likely, if not downright obvious. I disagree (really it's more of a quibble) with one point: "The issue of where the holes are placed is really neither here nor there."

For us, looking for something to function as a sort of Saponi Town badge, probably it's of minor interest. But for the person who made it, about 300 years ago (and that's assuming it wasn't an heirloom at the time the child was buried), it was at least intentional, and maybe important. While it is true that someone wanting to hang a thing around his neck could put the holes (or one hole) most anywhere, it's also true that someone wishing to spin a 3" shell disc (for either magical or recreational purposes) would need to put two holes pretty much exactly where these two holes have been put: one on each side of the center, close in, but not too close.

By the way, a couple of months ago I exchanged emails about this artifact with Steve Davis, the UNC archaeologist with overall responsibility for the Siouan Project (including the Occaneechi Town dig and its web report). I sent him a link, and his are among the 3,300-plus hits on this thread. I don't think he'd mind my quoting him: "I guess what really amazed me while reading through the forum is how much interest this artifact seems to have generated among crafts people!" And that is down to CreekCarver, Kathleen6, Tom, and maybe others -- certainly, in the first place, to Linda Carter. The thread has a hundred messages, and a few thousand hits, and five stars, because it is about something many of us perceive as important. To me it's a rare, tangible scrap of our collective, mostly lost heritage. We don't all have to agree about its original use, its internal symbolism, or the metaphysical nature of bodily adornment, to be drawn to the emblem itself.

dovelady

07-20-2006, 05:48 PM

Hi Again Pappy,

As a child I played with these buttons on a string. There were four kids in our family and when all the cousins came over to play there were a lot of kids in one small house. Sometimes as many as 16 or more. So our parents had to find something to amuse us on a rainy day. We just called them 'buzz buttons' when I was growing up. Because to us, they sounded like buzzing bees when you really got them whirling! To make them go fast, I used to twirl them more than two times though. I'd twirl them several times to get them started and then alternately pull my hands apart and then let them go closer together to keep the twisting action on the button working indefinately.

I used to love making them go really fast and then letting them tighten up around my fingers (middle fingers only). I remember as a kid, I was always afraid that they'd tighten so much that they'd cut off the circulation to my fingers and my fingers would fall off. LOL. I do remember a few times that my fingers actually did turn purple and I had to run to Mama. LOL But we played with these for hours and hours and I also made them for my kids and grand kids.

Like everyone else, I have no idea what the gorget found on the child was used for. It could have been all of the things that have been discussed here in this thread, or it could have been none of them. Since a similar design was found on a spoon bowl, it could have even been a family or tribal symbol or, something we don't even know about.

To me, the use of the child's gorget is secondary compared to the meaning of the symbols. But that, too is lost to time. So we can only speculate again unless further evidence is found which would put some clarity on this object.

I often wish I could be a 'time traveler' and go back and see what our ancestors were really like. There is so much speculation when a people and their culture have been lost to time, or thrown aside, or discounted or ignored or down right sabataged. It's too bad that our ancestors of all races didn't realize the importance of preserving culture. Of course, for the white people, maybe they did and that is why they tried so hard to destroy anything and anyone that didn't fit into their white culture.

In my opinion, it was both white and NA peoples who are to blame. Blame sounds like too harsh a word, but I can't think of another right now. The white man for oppressing the NA's and the NA's because they were so secretive about their roots- even to their own children. And because of that a whole culture was lost.

Of course, I understand that it was often dangerous to pass the information along and that for generations the sacred rituals and rites were banned by the government under threat of heavy penality to those sharing or taking part in any kind of ritual. It must have been a very hard time to live in for our NA ancestors.

And that this circle of events brings us to today, and to us here, sharing our collective stories, oral traditions and research - trying to reconnect to the ancient past. Perhaps it is fitting that the symbol that has been adopted has a circle of 'mountains' with a whirlwind in the center because it seems that many of us have been in a kind of geneaolocigal whirlwind and have had to pass over many mountains and valleys just to get to where we are today. Finally, I am ok with this symbol. It is a fitting symbol of our search.

Gecko

08-03-2006, 12:51 PM

Hi Linda,

May I have permission to recreate this emblem in Skrimshaw and shell? This has been one of my hobbies that I learned from our brothers in Alaska. It's fun! IT WOULD NOT BE MADE FOR PUBLIC SALE OF ANY TYPE!!!! I will only use Hemp and I assume the Beading is shell as well.

Being in Florida, If your Craftsman needs Shells, Tell him to contact me and I will send him a Big "ol" Box!!!

Joe "The Gecko"

Linda

08-03-2006, 06:15 PM

It's not my permission to give. We found the design in an archeological publication. There are no copyrights I can imagine exist, and I am not so presumptious as to dictate any usage based on any sort of community or tribal interests. Creek Carver is making a living with his shellwork. Personally, I think it's wonderful if he can, and have been very glad to for his services. This design, to my knowledge, is not attributed to any tribe with treaty rights. We have to live with the lack of social recognition and historical record that entails, one advantage is that we at least avoid a lot of the entanglements of that other peculiar institution. Scrimshaw away to your heart's content, and do what you wish with it.

PappyDick

08-03-2006, 07:57 PM

I'd like to remind all concerned that at some point in the future, the ESDA (see message #33) hopes to incorporate in some state (most likely NC, I'd think), as a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit corporation; and at some point after that, ESDA may wish for this design to be its trade mark, and may therefore have to register it as such with the U.S. Patent Office. When or if that happens, I think there is plenty of evidence in this thread showing that it was conceived as such, "our emblem," from 08/01/05, before either Creek Carver or Gecko recreated it in shell (or Kathleen6 did a ceramic version, if that has happened). And its details were more or less agreed upon, as of post #25.

I agree that neither Linda nor the rest of us have a proprietary claim on the design, but at some point ESDA may wish to make such a claim. It's not like licensing NFL team logos; we aren't going to make piles of money off this, but we might want to preempt its adoption as somebody else's logo.

I think some tee shirts were sold at a pow-wow in Clarksville, if by any chance they had this design, that might also be a factor.

Linda

08-03-2006, 08:19 PM

Excellent points. I think I would be annoyed if somebody else up and patented it and said we couldn't use it anymore. By the same token, I wouldn't want to tell anybody else they couldn't use it. It belongs to the Ancestors, is pre-(Columbian)historic and nobody should have the right to exclude anyone else from its use. I wonder what the laws are on this. Could somebody patent the design of Stonehedge and exclude others from using it?

It has not been part of any tee-shirt to date.

Perhaps the correct approach would be to adapt the design into some larger motif that we could claim was the exclusive insignia of our group?

barryc

08-04-2006, 12:30 AM

Anyone who has reasonable claim to Occoneechee ancestry should be able to use it and nobody with reasonable claim to Occoneechee can be denied from using it regardless of U.S. patents, copyrights and other foreign laws that do not apply to our people.

If a group related to Occoneechee Indians wants to use it fine--the more it is used by that group the more people will identify the symbol with that group. And the more other groups naturally will not use it. However, anyone with Occoneechee ancestry could still use it if desired. Again copyrights and other foreign laws should be kept out of Indian business.

Trying to patent this is like trying to patent the Siouan language and likey to draw significant heat from other Indian communities regarding theft of Indian culture.

Barry

"I am the first and last of my nation, subject only to the great spirit"

Linda

08-04-2006, 01:32 AM

Anybody who wants to can wear a museum reproduction. Period. There are no laws or customs to prevent it, nor should there be.

PappyDick

08-04-2006, 07:39 AM

Well, excuuuuuse me... but I was referring to a trade mark, not a patent (that's just the office that registers them, in the US). And there are in fact ancient Native American symbols so registered. Like for example the hand with an eye in the palm, which I believe was registered about 40 years ago by the Southeast Indian Antiquities Survey (or something like that); anyway a group that sent out a newsletter from Nashville, and the symbol was their letterhead logo.

You might or might not wish to become informed on the topic (as opposed to all huffy about it), by reading

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_trademark_law

Linda

08-04-2006, 05:17 PM

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound huffy, certainly not to you.

Tom

08-04-2006, 05:20 PM

Hello, well Pappydick is right there are differences between the 2 and we need to get the legal poop on it.
This topic has to potential to get all huffy, it has to do with rights and claims, just like all other types of native American Issues, so why not the "art".!
The difference between Euro art and ours is that for the most part ours is mneumonic, "thiers" is static, that is "none functioning" in a cultural format since they had a written language, form and function is the key!
I once said that I was going to post some materials on what I think this pattern on the shell and spoon might be, I still plan on doing that, and will, like always source out examples to base a theory on.
I see no reason to get personal or any thing else on this topic, as for other groups wanting to use this item we can't stop them even if we tried, Saponi or other wise.
Have Fun doing what you want with this pattern Gecko, it belongs to all of us!

Brenda Ferrell Sampsel

10-20-2006, 12:33 AM

Harrington, M.R. Some Unusual Iroquois Specimens. American Anthropologist, 1909 Vol. 11:85-91
"....The author discusses a Native American tribe called the Tutelo who are so similar to the Iroquois that he felt it appropriate to mention them. The only thing that differentiates them from the Cayuga is a necklace called a wampum. It is made from shells flattened into discs. They are very decorative and used in a Tutelo adoption ceremony. If a member of a Tutelo family passed away, the family members could select an outsider to take the place of the deceased. The outsider would wear the wampum during the adoption ceremony.
Harrington does not make any theoretical claims, but he does describe the specimens in great detail."
http://www.publicanthropology.org/Archive/Aa1909.htm#top

Thought this was an interesting detail.

Brenda

Tom

11-22-2006, 01:37 PM

refresh this thread

rockhound

02-28-2007, 10:19 PM

I found this on a website sent to me by a man who has taken it upon himself to protect burial mounds around the St. Louis area.

This conch shell gorget was found near one of the mounds...looks similar in a way, doesn't it?
http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/moarch/BlakeMoundShellGorget.jpg

Tom

04-05-2007, 04:34 PM

I was just looking at southern sites and came across an old Waccamaw site.
This old site has a beaded rosette in the top left hand corner, the central figure is a basket pattern from the soutwestern folks that used to called "Papago". the outside of this rosette has an edge design that looks similar to the arms on the shell gorget.
These outward arms look like what could be achieved with the arms found on the gorgets if done in beadwork, aswell the cnteral portions could be filled in with color etc.
http://www.jldev.com/waccamaw/resources/index.asp

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 02:20 AM

This thread defiently needed a bump.....One of the Occaneechi showed me this thread....I'm surprised I have over looked it....especially since I posted one of the shell pendants that was found near this

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 02:25 AM

Here is the photos of the two shell pendants.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d193/nerflight/Occaneechi_Town.jpghttp://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d193/nerflight/d_0580.jpg

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 02:28 AM

I just noticed there is 8 pages to this thread..so if I post something already here..my bad :) This is info on the stuff found at the fredricks site.During the Late Prehistoric period (as evidenced by the nearby Wall site), many native ornaments were made from the columella, or central columns, of large marine gastropods. These probably were taken from species of the Melogenidae (Crown Conch) family which occur along the Atlantic seaboard from Massachusetts to Florida (Percy 1972). Small disk beads, gorgets, and pendants were made from the outer whorl of these large univalves. A small univalve called marginella (of the Marginellidae family) which occurs along the coast from the West Indies to the southern beaches of North Carolina (Percy 1972) was also used as a form of ornament.On the whole, the coastal univalves were the source material for the greatest proportion of ornaments. To a much lesser extent bivalve shells (presumably mussel) and stone fragments were made into small disk beads, and native copper and mica were used for other types of ornaments.By the time the Fredricks site was occupied by the Occaneechi, many of the previously available bead forms (pendants, tubes, and sphericals) had been modified and others (columella segments and marginellas) had been all but dropped from use. Several new types--runtees and cylinder/barrels made from columella, and wampum made from quahogs (Mercenaria mercenaria)--had appeared. Quahogs occur from the Gulf of St. Lawrence to Florida (Percy 1972). Although small disk beads appear to have retained both their form and function through this time, they too show indications of the impact of European influence.In 1709 John Lawson (Lefler 1967:204), who had travelled through North Carolina in 1701 and visited Occaneechi Town, gave a general description of Indian beadmaking:This [the shell preform] the Indians grind on Stones and other things, till they make it current but the Drilling is the most difficult to the Englishmen, which the Indians manage with a Nail stuck in a Cane or Reed. Thus they roll it continually on their Thighs, with their Right-Hand holding the Bit of Shell with this Left, so in time they drill a Hole quite through it, which is a very tedious Work; but especially in making their Roanoak, four of which will scarce make one Length of Wampum.Based of the above ethnohistorical information, we can expect to see several manifestations in the archaeological record. The basic beadmaking process appears to have involved first obtaining a preform from the shell by breaking or the groove-and-snap technique, then reducing the piece, and finally drilling, grinding, and smoothing. Prehistoric tool types for this work would have included hammerstones, stone drills, burins, chisels, and anvils, grinding stones, and stone or pottery abraders. At historic beadmaking stations, one should find many of the components of the prehistoric tool kit along with the replacement or addition of metal tools such as awls/drills/needles, pincers/tongs/vices for holding preforms, and perhaps also hammers and saws for reducing the shells. Where the purple wampum were made, we should expect to find Quahog shells (Mercenaria mercenaria). Where other types of beads and ornaments were manufactured, there should be refuse from univalve shells (called periwinkles in the 1600-1700s). The lack of such beadworking tools and shell debris at the Fredricks site suggest that shell beads were not manufactured by the Occaneechi but were received in trade.Types of Shell OrnamentsEight kinds of shell ornaments were recovered from the Fredricks site: pendants, tube beads, columella segment beads, spherical columella beads, barrel/cylinder beads, small disk beads, wampum, and runtees. Most of these were found in association with burials and represent either decorative elements sewn onto garments or jewelry.

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 02:29 AM

http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/images/d16/d_0575.jpeg

Small disk beads (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/excavations/slid_ahl.html), most of which were probably made from the wall sections of large univalves, comprise approximately 90% of the shell ornaments from the Fredricks site. Correspondingly, small white beads also comprise about 90% of all glass beads at the site. Apparently there was a continuous use and demand for this general bead form (first shell and then of glass and shell) during the Late Prehistoric and Historic periods.
Many of the Fredricks site disks were drilled or punched with a small cylindrical object, presumably a metal nail, needle, or awl. The use of metal tools was suggested by the sharp sides of the bead holes as opposed to the hourglass concavity present on beads which had been slowly drilled from both sides. Also, a few of the Fredricks site beads revealed a larger, seemingly "unfinished" form. Several also revealed a triangular- or quadrangular-shaped hole, which suggested they were not drilled but driven through by a very hard object, again a sign of the use of metal tools

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 02:31 AM

http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/images/d16/d_0606.jpeg

The 11 tube beads (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/excavations/slid_aib.html) from the Fredricks site were all recovered from the chest area of Burial 4 (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/excavations/exc_ao.html), which was a bundle burial containing a male adult and an infant. The tubes were found lying together in parallel order on the adult's chest. The nine tubes that were complete ranged in size from 105-123 mm in length and 6.0-7.4 mm in diameter. Their hole diameters ranged from 2.0-2.7 mm. These measurements demonstrate the uniformity of these tubes. On none of them is the silca groove very apparent, unlike tube beads found at earlier sites. No doubt the use of a metal drill enabled the artisan(s) of these historic tube beads to produce a much more refined product with much less energy expenditure; however, even so some evidence of the groove should be apparent no matter how narrow the tube given the depth of this groove on other tubes from the area.
These historic tube beads actually resemble the hair pipes used by Plains Indians which were manufactured commercially by Dutch settlers in Bergen County, New Jersey, from the West Indian conch, Strombus gigas (Ewers 1957 (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/part6/ref_et.html)). These tubes were made from the thick lip of the outer whorl of the conch. If the tubes from Fredricks site were made from this thicker-lipped West Indian conch, it would explain the absence of a silca groove, which only occurs on the inner columella part of the shell. Although the evidence suggests that commercial manufacture of these articles by the Dutch was begun between 1776 and 1798 (Ewers 1957 (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/part6/ref_et.html):42), it is possible that the tubes at the Fredricks site represent a somewhat earlier example of trade for this distant source of shell. If this is true, then tube beads, like the pendants, indicate a longer distance trade network historically than there is evidence for prehistorically at this locality.

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 02:32 AM

http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/images/d16/d_0573.jpeg

Two basic types of wampum (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/excavations/slid_ahj.html) were identified at the Fredricks site: (1) a cylindrical form, which has frequently been described in the literature (bottom rows, illustrated specimens); and (2) a morphological variant on the former type which will be called oval wampum (top row illustrated specimens). The oval wampum were made by grinding the sharp corners from the ends of the cylinders. Both purple and white varieties of both types have been identified, although only five purple oval wampum have been recovered so far from this site. Overall, the wampum range in length from 4.8-7.0 mm and in diameter from 3.2-4.6 mm, with the white wampum making up a higher proportion of the smaller sizes. All of the white oval wampum were made from smaller white wampum, and they occurred exclusively with this small white cylindrical form. All the purple wampum, including the oval form, were larger than the white oval wampum.
The majority of the wampum (68%) was found with Burial 1 (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/excavations/exc_aa.html), occurring around the neck, chest, and the lower arms areas where they were arranged in closely spaced parallel rows. The wampum with Burial 2 (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/excavations/exc_ab.html) were found around the neck and chest in a similar pattern. The wampum with Burial 1 (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/excavations/exc_aa.html) appeared to have been strung around the neck. The rest of the wampum were found with Burial 5 (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/excavations/exc_az.html). These latter specimens (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/excavations/slid_agx.html), probably decoration on a small bag or pouch, were lying over a cluster of two ceramic pipes, a knife, and a bird claw. The contextual relationship of the wampum at this site suggest they were used as ornaments sewn onto garments and other personal gear, and were strung as necklaces worn around the neck.

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 02:33 AM

http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/images/d16/d_0590.jpeg

In 1722, Robert Beverley of Virginia described this type of bead as being made "of the Conch Shell, as the Peak is, only the Shape is flat and like a Cheese, and drill'd Edgeways" (Beverley 1947 (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/part6/ref_ar.html):145). The 21 runtees from the Fredricks site ranged from 12.8-17.2 mm in length, 12.8-17.5 mm in diameter, and 4.1-6.4 mm in thickness. They were found exclusively around the neck and chest areas of Burial 1 (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/excavations/exc_aa.html) (see runtees (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/excavations/slid_ahr.html)) and Burial 2 (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/excavations/exc_ab.html) (see runtees (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/excavations/slid_ahw.html)). Those with Burial 2 occurred with spherical and barrel/cylinder beads. In both instances, they occurred in association with wampum. No other runtees are known to have been found at Piedmont archaeological sites.

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 02:34 AM

http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/images/d16/d_0610.jpeg

Segment beads (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/excavations/slid_aic.html) were made from the columella of large univalves by cutting or by a groove-and-snap technique. The resulting beads were then smoothed, drilled, and strung. Their overall shape maintains the basic form of the columella although they vary in size and length; hence they range from almost a tubular shape to a disk shape. As segments of quite different forms were worn together with no indication of shape distinction, they were lumped under the single class of "segment," with only a size distinction of small, medium, and large noted.
The preform nature of this basic bead type allowed these segments to be modified into more finished forms of beads, some of which were found at the Fredricks site. Two beads made from segments having a more finished, symmetrical form and leaning toward the discoidal end of this bead form's spectrum were associated with Burial 5 (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/excavations/exc_az.html). These beads were found above the left temporal bone, next to the left ear, and are believed to have been a form of ear ornament.

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 02:35 AM

<CENTER>Spherical Columella Beads </CENTER><CENTER>Spherical beads from the Fredricks site occurred with barrel/cylinders, runtees, and wampum around the neck and chest area of Burial 2 (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/excavations/exc_ab.html). All of these spherical beads were very badly preserved. It appeared from the few intact surfaces that they were of a more finished quality (i.e., smoother and more polished) than those from the earlier Wall site. Measurements ranged from 4.6-7.2 mm in length and from 5.4-7.3 mm in diameter.

</CENTER>

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 02:36 AM

http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/images/d16/d_0598.jpeg

Like the other beads discussed so far, barrel/cylinder beads were made from the columella. They vary from segments in that they are characteristically longer than wide, and they have been ground along their long axis so that they are more symmetrical than the segments. Fifty-four barrel/cylinder beads (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/excavations/slid_ahx.html) were recovered from around the chest and neck of Burial 2 (http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/excavations/exc_ab.html) at the Fredricks site. They range in length from 12.2-15.4 mm, in diameter from 5.0-8.5 mm, and in thickness from 4.9-7.5 mm. All are badly damaged.

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 02:38 AM

http://www.albany.edu/jmmh/vol1no1/aerialview1984.jpg

Occaneechi town dig site.

http://www.albany.edu/jmmh/vol1no1/occanee.jpg

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 02:41 AM

http://www.pfeife-tabak.de/Artikel/Pfeifenkunde/Indianer6/Bild%20170.JPG

http://www.pfeife-tabak.de/Artikel/Pfeifenkunde/Indianer6/Bild%20172.JPG

http://www.pfeife-tabak.de/Artikel/Pfeifenkunde/Indianer6/Bild%20161.jpeg

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 02:44 AM

If anyoen can read the language on this one site.....you will find interesting things.

http://www.pfeife-tabak.de/Artikel/Pfeifenkunde/Indianer6/indianer6.htm

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 02:49 AM

Now as I pointed out in a earlier post in another thread...
This is the Lakota Stone medicine wheel.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d193/nerflight/Occaneechi_Town.jpghttp://www.dirtbrothers.org/college/medicine%20wheel.jpg

I'm not sure if anyone knows the Medicine wheel teachings...but it is our way of life.....In a way you can say the medicine wheel is almost like our bible.

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 03:13 AM

wow..there is alot to read in this thread...I'm reading a little bit at a time lol

The design on the pendant withthe triangles......them designs have been found before....but the way they have been found is weird....because the triangle by itself has been used to mean a tee pee....however we do not use a tee pee.....so then I would say it goes to the next triangle that has been used....which represents the thunderbird....or well thunderbird tracks....however this is weird also since the thunder bird track is 2 triangles.....one on top of the other.....however the thunder bird is a Lakota thing as well and legend says a thunderbird once lived in the black hills....hopfully I got the location right on where the thunder bird lived....

so we already know the pendant found next to this is a exact copy of the Lakota's stone medicine wheel.....so how would the thunder bird fit in.....lakota has both medicine wheel and thunder bird...also has the siouan language....so we got 3 things going for us.....and i think this next thing may be able to place the triangles into the thunderbird tracks....just withought the double triangle.....

Ok Here is Ga there is one hell of a large thunder bird...made with stones..just like how the lakota medicine wheel was created....same type of stones.

my next post I will include a photo of this HUGE thunder bird....Ga is not NC...but it shows the thunder bird was well known on the east coast as well.

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 03:31 AM

Rock Eagle Effigy Mound
Putnam County, GA

A bird effigy mound, 102 feet long and 120 feet wide from wing tip to wing tip. A tower for viewing. The effigy mound if located 9 miles north of Eatonton at the Rock Eagle 4-H Center on US Highway 441/129. Rock Eagle Effigy Mound (http://www.georgia-archaeology.org/SGA/Public_sites.html) photo (http://www.nr.nps.gov/iwisapi/explorer.dll?IWS_SCHEMA=NRIS1&IWS_LOGIN=1&IWS_REPORT=100000044)

The Rock Eagle Effigy Mound was entered on the National Register of Historic Places on 1978 23 May.

http://www.lakeoconeehouses.com/pimages/rockeagle2.jpg Eagle or Thunderbird?? They cal this a Eagle....but looks like a Thunderbird to me.

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 03:32 AM

Now right near that....is another one of these...they call the next one a Hawk.

PUTNAM COUNTY IS IN PROCESS OF DEVELOPING THE AREA AROUND THE ROCK HAWK EFFIGY NEAR WALLACE DAM

http://historicmiddlegeorgia.org/images/rock_hawk1.jpg (http://historicmiddlegeorgia.org/images/pia/rock_hawk1.jpg)This is a representation of the trails being developed around an early Indian Effigy known as Rock Hawk.

The Rock Hawk Effigy is similar to the well established Rock Eagle (http://georgia4horg.caes.uga.edu/public/facilities/rockeagle) mound at the 4H Center on Route 441 between I-20 and Eatonton Georgia.
Rock Hawk is still under development as a tourist site. The project is being carried out as a Route 16 Scenic Byway project and involves a number of organizations, among which are UGA and Georgia Power. By late 2006 the area will become a 700 acre outdoor museum with the 5000 year old Effigy (date speculative), 18th century remains, plus 15 miles of trails, an interpretive center and a viewing platform for the Hawk.
In order to see Rock Hawk and the surrounding area, take Georgia State Highway 16http://historicmiddlegeorgia.org/images/rock_hawk4.jpg (http://historicmiddlegeorgia.org/images/pia/rock_hawk4.jpg) East from Eatonton towards Sparta. Take a left at the Wallace Dam Road, where you will take another left turn at the sign for the Lawrence Shoals Recreation area. .Part way along this road you will see signs for the Rock Hawk trails, and off to your left (past the old cemetery) you will see the beginnings of the parking area for Rock Hawk. Turn into this parking area and continue along the gravel road to see the Hawk effigy, surrounded by a chain link fence.

http://historicmiddlegeorgia.org/images/rock_hawk3.jpg (http://historicmiddlegeorgia.org/images/pia/rock_hawk3.jpg)What does the Hawk look like? Well right now it looks like a pile of rocks! When the viewing platform is built, it will transform into the shape of a Hawk, 120 ft long by 130 ft wide Both the Hawk and the Eagle mounds are believed to be have been used in some kind of ceremonial manner by the Indian tribes who inhabited the Oconee river area many thousands of years ago. Artifacts from these early tribes have been traced back as far as 10,000 years ago! It is speculated that at least 250 archeological sites are now under water since the Wallace Dam was built and the area flooded in 1979.

http://historicmiddlegeorgia.org/images/rock_hawk2.jpg (http://historicmiddlegeorgia.org/images/pia/rock_hawk2.jpg)Also in this area are some later historic sites. There is the remains of an old homestead and a wonderful 19th century walled cemetery that contains the family gravestones of Kinchen Little. Mr. Little was an early owner of most of the land where the Wallace Dam is now. He was one of the original families involved with the building of Rockville School, which is listed on the National Register of Historic Places.

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 04:02 AM

http://www.geocities.com/ctesibos/symbols/native-american.html

On that web site you will find various Native american symbols and their meanings....it shows the Thunderbird tracks as 2 triangles....one on top of the other....supposed to mean good prospects.

you will also see the symbol for the 4 ages...which does kinda resemble this...however there is 6 instead of 4.

http://www.alltribes.com/skin1/images/symbols/thunderbird-track.gif

Now this is interesting also....this is pottery from Lousianna's Ancients of man. Notice pots 2 and 4

http://www.eatel.net/~wahya/pots.GIF

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 04:25 AM

Now if the triangles was facing the other direction...it would be the sun symbol...Life giver. Warmth, growth, and all that is good & well.

http://www.buckagram.com/buck/symbols/symbol23.gif

Now this is one of many types of sun symbols....whats interesting is it is using the 4 directional medicine wheel.......some wheels are the 4 directions..some have 7 directions (the 7 directions you will only see 6 directions because the 7th direction in the center of the wheel usually seen as a small circle...the 7th direction is inside you). As seen from the other pendant...you can see our ancestors was using the 7 directions on the one pendant.

http://www.whats-your-sign.com/images/SunSymbol.jpg
This is one of the most common symbols among all Native American Indian tribes. You will note this particular sun design has seven rays. Each ray represents the seven energy centers within human beings, and also the development of each of these energy centers. This symbol identifies the healing arts, and represents a peace loving

Some Native American sun symbols have used triangles on the outside edges...however they face outward not inward.

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 04:26 AM

Native American traditions

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/49/Native_American_basketball_team.jpg/180px-Native_American_basketball_team.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Native_American_basketball_team.jpg) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Native_American_basketball_team.jpg)
Native American basketball team in 1909.

The swastika shape was used by some Native Americans. It has been found in excavations of Mississippian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippian_culture)-era sites in the Ohio valley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_River). It was widely used by many southwestern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwestern_United_States) tribes, most notably the Navajo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navajo_Nation). Among various tribes, the swastika carried different meanings. To the Hopi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopi) it represented the wandering Hopi clan; to the Navajo it was one symbol for a whirling winds (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Whirling_winds&action=edit&redlink=1) (tsil no'oli'), a sacred image representing a legend that was used in healing rituals (after learning of the Nazi mimic "whirling winds" the Navajo rejected the symbol).<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-22>[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#cite_note-22)</SUP> A brightly colored First Nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Nations) saddle featuring swastika designs is on display at the Royal Saskatchewan Museum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Saskatchewan_Museum) in Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada).<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-23>[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#cite_note-23)</SUP>
A swastika shape is an ancient symbol in the culture of the Kuna people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuna_%28people%29) of Kuna Yala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuna_Yala), Panama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama). In Kuna tradition, it symbolizes the octopus that created the world; its tentacles, pointing to the four cardinal points, gave rise to the rainbow, the sun, the moon and the stars.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-24>[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#cite_note-24)</SUP>
In February, 1925, the Kuna revolted against Panamanian suppression of their culture, and were granted autonomy in 1930; the flag they adopted at this time is based on the swastika shape, and remains the official flag of Kuna Yala. A number of variations on the flag have been used over the years: red top and bottom bands instead of orange were previously used, and in 1942 a ring (representing the traditional Kuna nose-ring) was added to the center of the flag to distance it from the symbol of the Nazi party.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-25>[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#cite_note-25)</SUP>

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 04:28 AM

I'm adding the swastika info...because the inside design does remind me of the same design used by native americans....however there is 6 lines...6 directions.....which once again goes back to the medicine wheel..however the medicine wheel never bends the ends of the lines.

http://www.darkfiber.com/eyeinhand/Cox-Mound-woodpeckers-C157a.gif

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 04:37 AM

http://www.kalilily.net/weblog/sunbird.jpg

That is the native american sunbird swastica....the birds are on the outside....so maybe just maybe that could be whats going on with the triangles...bird tracks on the outside.

Ga-Nc Collins

04-25-2008, 04:44 AM

Ok now....here is what I personally say is going on....the swatica design I've been mentioning....that deals with the 4 winds...the 4 directions...the 4 ages...etc etc......that actually is a swastica design....now the 4 winds..4 directions etc etc....is basically the same thing as the medicine wheel when it comes down to it.....so in theory since the other pendant used the 7 direction medicine wheel....it really would seem pretty safe to say that they may have incorped the 7 direction medicine wheel into the four winds swastica design....then added the bird tracks around it for added kick so to say.

Ga-Nc Collins

04-26-2008, 09:51 PM

ok I know the middle part is a variation of the 4 winds.....which is basically the same thing as the medicine wheel. we know a pendant found near this was a exact copy of our cousin tribe's Lakota medicine wheel.....we know at Town creek another medicine wheel pendant was found.....we know the medicine wheel is pretty much our religion.....it's like our bible.

ok so now I was looking at the triangles...and creek carver's version.....his version made it alot clearer to me.....a sun symbol.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/kalisetsi/Gorget.jpg I've never seen a double sun ray....but then again I've never seen a 6 wind either....usually the winds are 4....but once agian the basic medicine wheel is 4 directions however we know there is medicine wheels with the 6 lines as well....

Ga-Nc Collins

04-26-2008, 09:56 PM

The Sun, giver of life, warmth, growth, all that is good. This is a style of showing the sun as the face of a kachina mask. Similar styles are seen throughout the Southwestern Indian cultures. May or may not also show "rays" signifying the four directions (this is for the first sun symbol below).

http://www.buckagram.com/buck/symbols/symbol23.gifhttp://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/kalisetsi/Gorget.jpghttp://www.darkfiber.com/eyeinhand/Cox-Mound-woodpeckers-C157a.gif
I'm pretty sure I've figured out what the design is :)

Ga-Nc Collins

04-26-2008, 09:59 PM

I think I may have found out one of our ritual dances also.....because if the above is true.....then once again lets go to our Siouan cousins.....and we have the "Sun Dance".

The Sun Dance is a ceremony practiced differently by several North American Indian Nations, but many of the ceremonies have features in common, including dancing, singing and drumming, the experience of visions, fasting, and, in some cases, self-torture.
The Sun Dance was the most spectacular and important religious ceremony of the Plains Indians of 19th-century North America, ordinarily held by each tribe once a year usually at the time of the Summer Solstice.
The Sun Dance last from four to eight days starting at the sunset of the final day of preparation and ending at sunset. It showed a continuity between life and death - a regeneration. It shows that there is no true end to life, but a cycle of symbolic and true deaths and rebirths. All of nature is intertwined and dependent on one another. This gives an equal ground to everything on the Earth.
The Native American tribes who practiced sun dance were:
The Arapaho, Arikara, Asbinboine, Cheyenne, Crow, Gros, Ventre, Hidutsa, Sioux, Plains Cree, Plains Ojibway, Sarasi, Omaha, Ponca, Ute, Shoshone, Kiowa, and Blackfoot tribes. Their rituals varied from tribe to tribe.
For many tribes of Plains Indians whose bison-hunting culture flourished during the 18th and 19th centuries, the sun dance was the major communal religious ceremony - the rite celebrates renewal - the spiritual rebirth of participants and their relatives as well as the regeneration of the living Earth with all its components - the ritual, involving sacrifice and supplication to insure harmony between all living beings, continues to be practiced by many contemporary native Americans. The most renowned priest was also the best Lodge maker. He ran the entire ceremony and would instruct the participant in building a preparatory tepee and give direction to the other tribesmen who would gather the items needed for the construction. Men known for their eminence in their tribe were chosen to look for a tree with a fork in the top. This was to be for the first and center pole of the lodge. When a suitable tree was located a special qualified person was called in to cut the tree down. The fallen tree was then treated just like a fallen enemy. Then, depending on the tribe a bundle was placed on the fork. In the Sioux tribe the bundle contained brush, buffalo hide, long straws with tobacco in them and other religious offerings.

Ga-Nc Collins

04-26-2008, 10:05 PM

::It showed a continuity between life and death::

This would show why there "6 winds" was added to it.....which is part of what the "4 winds or 6 winds" symbolizes.

Since the 4 winds is pretty much the same as the medicine wheel...here is a basic idea of what the medicine wheel symbolizes.

The Medicine Wheel
The medicine wheel is an ancient religious symbol. The four bars identify the four cardinal directions. The number four has mystic significance to many of the plains people. It represents the 4 seasons, the 4 quarters of the moon, the 4 winds, and the 4 elements. The outer circle represents the hoop of life, the cyclic pattern of ongoing life and death.

YELLOW is usually the color of the EAST: symbolizing the beginning of the day and of life.
RED is usually the SOUTHERN color: symbolizing the noon sun, the good things of life, and innocence.
BLACK is the color of the WEST: symbolizing the end of the day and of life ... a quiet time of introspection.
WHITE is the NORTHERN color: symbolizing hardships and discomfort, but allowing also wisdom and tolerance<CENTER>Medicine Wheel - Circle of Life</CENTER>
The medicine wheel is sacred, the native people believe, because the Great Spirit caused everything in nature to be round. The Sun, Sky, Earth and Moon are round. Thus, man should look upon the Medicine Wheel (circle of life) as sacred. It is the symbol of the circle that marks the edge of the world and therefore, the Four Winds that travel there. It is also the symbol of the year. The Sky, the Night, and the Moon go in a circle above the Sky, therefore, the Circle is a symbol of these divisions of time. It is the symbol of all times throughout creation.

Ga-Nc Collins

04-26-2008, 10:08 PM

http://www.kivatrading.com/symbol40.gif Whirling Logs, an ancient symbol from many cultures, the North American symbol depicted the cyclic motion of life, seasons and the four winds. Taken from the image of a tree in a whirlwind, this image is found in Navajop sand paintings frequently. It is considered a powerful medicine.

This is the 4 winds.

Ga-Nc Collins

04-26-2008, 10:27 PM

Knowing this...you may now understand why it was found inside a burial.

Now another name for the 4 winds is the "4 ages". Infancy, youth, middle age, and Old age.

Now some people may not be aware but before the settlers came....the sun was thought to be the "creator" or as the settlers reffered to as "god"...because the sun brings life in all things around us....so the sun was very sacred. a sun symbol could in a way be thought of in the same way we would see a picture of Jesus in today's times......also just how today we see so many different people with the cross or jesus tattooed on their body....well before the settlers came here you would see sun symbols tattooed on the body. Now it's not like a worshiping a false god type thing....alot of people get that idea when they think oh these people thought the sun was god...it's not like that at all......today we say god is the greatest thing and gives life.....now if we look around and was to point out one thing like that today we would probally have to say the sun...god/creator is great so to symbolize him or her with something then you would have to find the greatest thing around i.e the sun. Even today in pictures of Jesus you'll notice alot of times the sun behind him or a great light behind him. All the native teachings was basically the same as what the christian bible teaches and this is why christianity caught on when the settlers came.

The plains siouans even thought hair to be sacred and not to be cut except in time of someone's death.....alot of people may not know this but in the christian bible there is a passage which says hair is sacred and not to be cut. The bible also teaches us that all people are euqal and that we are all brothers and sisters.....that is what the Medicine wheel teaches as well. There is also alot in the bible which mentions the great light....great light....sun.

collins

04-26-2008, 10:47 PM

North, East, South, West, Above, and Below/Here
These are the six directions.
The sun symbol and worship was very much a part of the Southeast for all tribes. The Moundbuilder culture has at its center the worship of the Sun and the directions in harmony with all the cycles of life. If you want to gain some insight into the Southeastern Siouan cultural outlook you may do well to study the Moundbuilder Culture, the Mississipean Ceromonial Complex, and the Woodland Culture. The Saponi as well all the other Southeastern Siouans were moundbuilders. This was how the dead were buried. In some circumstances the dead may have been kept in or near the home for a time.

From my understanding the centeral motif in the Saponi gorgets are whirlwind designs which may signify a connection between the wind, the sun, and thus the seasons. The triangular designs have been thought to represent the home or mountains, however this motif of triangles around a central fire has been linked to the order in which the people often sleept or regarded their societal stratification. Men to the outside, women on the next ring, and children nearest the center. Is this design a medicine wheel? Maybe, it could be viewed as such. Unfortunatly there is no 100% conclusive answer since the intent of the artists and much of the culture and religon was wiped out early on. We have some hints and corralations.

Ga-Nc Collins

04-26-2008, 10:55 PM

Well the pendant found next to this one was a exact copy of the medicine wheel found out in Wyoming...also at the town creek mound dig there was the 4 direction medicine wheel pendant found.

When I first looking at the triangles...I did think they was triangles...but earlier today when I was looking at it....I noticed it looked like the Sun symbols which just so happens likes to add the mdicine wheel or 4 winds/4 ages inside.

The mounds are cool also....they symbolize the pregnaunt lady......we are thought to all be born from mother earth.....so the mounds symbolize this.

Ga-Nc Collins

04-26-2008, 11:01 PM

I also find it interesting at the number of triangles.....I think there is 26...hard to see exactly because some is rubbed off.....but I'd say that number is extremely close to what is at the Wyoming stone medicine wheel....28 lines. with the 6 dots for the directions. We have the 6 direction lines....and we are 2 numbers off from having that number 28 (could have ran out of space for 27 and 28).

On top of the Bighorn Range in Wyoming, a desolate 9,642 feet high and only reachable during the warm summer months, lies an ancient Native American construction -- an 80' diameter wheel-like pattern made of stones. At the center of the circle is a doughnut-shaped pile of stones, a cairn, connected to the rim by 28 spoke-like lines of stones. Six more stone cairns are arranged around the circle, most large enough to hold a sitting human. The central cairn is about 12 feet in diameter and 2' high.

The wheel has 28 spokes, the same number used in the roofs of ceremonial buildings such as the Lakota Sundance lodge. These always includes an entrance to the east, facing the rising Sun, and include 28 rafters for the 28 days in the lunar cycle. The number 28 is sacred to some of the Indian tribes because of its significance as the lunar month. In Bighorn's case, could the special number 28 also refer to the helicial or dawn rising of Rigel 28 days past the Solstice, and Sirius another 28 past that?
http://solar-center.stanford.edu/AO/bighorn.html

collins

04-26-2008, 11:27 PM

Look at the design on the buffalo robe with the tag underneath that says, "Sioux. Date unknown. Cat. No. 167,147. National Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution". This is the design in my opinion that mirrors the gorgets.

http://americanhistory.si.edu/kids/buffalo/abouthides_frmset.html

Ga-Nc Collins

04-26-2008, 11:35 PM

There is alot of stuff missing from that one though.

I posted this on page 9...but this is the Lakota stone medicine wheel....and the other pendant found next to the one from page 1. Follow the lines on the pendant...then look at the placements of the circles on the medicine wheel.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d193/nerflight/Occaneechi_Town.jpghttp://www.dirtbrothers.org/college/medicine%20wheel.jpg

Ga-Nc Collins

04-26-2008, 11:41 PM

Then if you look on post #140 above....them two black and white photos on the right are on the same type of conch shell material....you can also see one of them has the 2 holes for placement. the one on the top left of them two shows the triangles and 4 lines...also you'll see the sunbirds facing the exact same direction as the lines in the center of the pandant on page 1......

collins

04-26-2008, 11:45 PM

Ga-Nc Collins

04-26-2008, 11:48 PM

Them two black and white shells was actually found not that far from Occaneechi town....they was found in Tennesse at the Cox mound.

The Cox Mound, or Woodpecker, gorget style is a particularly beautiful and enduring symbol of Tennessee's prehistoric inhabitants. A gorget was a pendant, or personal adornment, worn around the neck as a badge of rank or insignia of status and was thought to be symbolic of both earthly and supernatural powers. A variety of gorget styles, or designs, are known. As a class of artistic expression, this type of artifact falls within the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex, formerly known as the Southern Cult.

Just over thirty Cox Mound-style gorgets have been found since the late nineteenth century, primarily from prehistoric Mississippian stone box graves and villages along the lower Tennessee, Cumberland, Duck, Harpeth, and Buffalo Rivers of Middle Tennessee, and the middle Tennessee River valley of northern Alabama. As a result of the frequent mortuary association of Cox Mound gorgets with certain pottery types, namely Matthews Incised, as well as other artifacts, it has been postulated that Cox Mound gorgets date to the period A.D. 1250-1450. One rich grave from the famous burial mound at the Castalian Springs site in Sumner County produced two Cox Mound gorgets.

Typically, Cox Mound gorgets were manufactured on exotic marine shell and were white in color. Other materials, such as black slate in Putnam County and human skull fragments in Hardin County, were used rarely. Engraving the intricate design on the hard shell or slate without metal tools took many hours of skilled labor and is thought to have been a winter activity.

Ga-Nc Collins

04-26-2008, 11:50 PM

The Native tribe that belonged to the Cox mound was the Yuchi which called themselfs the children of the sun....it is said they was also Siouan.

The Yuchi Indians are a North American Indian tribe belonging to the Southeastern Indian cultural group. Ethnohistorians indicate that during the historic period there were three principal bands of Yuchi: one on the Tennessee River, one in west Florida, and one on the Savannah River. The last of these relocated to the Chattahoochee River around 1715 and became part of the Creek Confederacy. The combined populations of all three groups probably never exceeded 3,000-5,000 persons. Unfortunately, frequent changes in location and confusion over the names applied to the tribe limits information regarding their inhabitancy of Tennessee.

The most outstanding hallmark of the Yuchis is their language, Uchean, which is distinct from all other Native American languages. While a linguistic isolate, Uchean does bear some structural resemblances to the Muskhogean and Siouan linguistic families and has occasionally been misclassified as Algonquian. Because Uchean was a difficult language to speak, most early historical sources refer to the Yuchis using a variety of non-Uchean names, including Hogologue, Tahogale, Chiska, Westo, Rickohockan, and Tamahaita.

The Yuchis referred to themselves as Tsoyahá, meaning "children of the sun." The term Yuchi probably derives from a reply yú tcí, meaning "at a distance / sitting down," to a standard southeastern Indian salutation: "Where do you come from?"

Ga-Nc Collins

04-26-2008, 11:54 PM

The earliest mention of Yuchis in Tennessee is found in the Spanish de Soto expedition narratives (1539-43), where they are referred to as the Chisca and located in the highlands north of the Tennessee River. The Chisca are mentioned again by the Spaniard Juan Pardo's expedition (1566-67), where they are described as warlike mountain chiefs. In the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries, the Yuchis split into two groups, with one body remaining in the north and the other radiating across the southern lowlands. Interestingly, the Yuchis have an oral tradition which explains the division of the tribe, in which one group, "Trackmaster's children," remained in the original homeland, while the children of "A bear only" moved toward the southern sun.

In 1673 one band of Yuchis reportedly lived in a stockaded or fortified town somewhere along the headwaters of the Tennessee River, possibly on the French Broad River near the confluence with the Holston River. Two English Virginian traders, James Needham and Gabriel Arthur, visited this group, which they referred to as the Tomahittans, on an overland trading mission supported by Abraham Wood. Needham returned to Petersburg, Virginia, with some Tomahittans to formalize trade relations with Wood, while Arthur remained in the town and accompanied some warriors on a retaliatory raid against Spanish settlements in Florida around 1674.

http://tennesseeencyclopedia.net/imagegallery.php?EntryID=Y006

sammarroq

04-27-2008, 04:17 PM

Thanks GA-NC Collins and Collins for the recent posts and info...interesting:)

sammarroq

08-18-2008, 01:50 AM

There's a museum reproduction at the Occoneechee State Park museum of a necklace with a shell with this design worked into it:

http://www.saponitown.com/images/largeGorget2.jpg

This is the design that was found at Gaston [correction Hillsborough] , is attritubed to the Occoneechee, and therefore, perhaps the closest piece of artwork to the ancestry we're trying to honor. I'll try to get a photo of it on the shell. It really looks very nice.

I was contacted today by a shell jewelry maker. I've asked him what kind of price he could give us for a quanity of them.

Has there been any findings as to the meaning of the symbols on this gorget?

Shirley

Ga-Nc Collins

08-18-2008, 03:02 AM

It's not Saponi, Manahoac, or Monacan.

The design in the center is the tribal emblem of another Siouan speaking tribe.

The Virginia Siouans had 3 arrows in the center of theirs.

Ga-Nc Collins

08-18-2008, 03:25 AM

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c194/Atlanta44/saponi.jpg

Look at letter " E ". These are all recorded tribal emblems.

Ga-Nc Collins

08-18-2008, 03:26 AM

Here is how my gorget looks.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c194/Atlanta44/saponi2.jpg

Ga-Nc Collins

08-18-2008, 03:28 AM

Here is a added bonus for you.....a reconstructed Monacan man and woman....actual monacan skulls was used for this recreation.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c194/Atlanta44/MonacanFace5.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c194/Atlanta44/MonacanFace2.jpg

Ga-Nc Collins

08-18-2008, 03:33 AM

One more bonus for you.

Every single Mound in Virginia....these are Monacan and Manahoac mounds.......Blue dots show the mound locations.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c194/Atlanta44/Villagesandmounds.gif

Linda

08-18-2008, 09:08 AM

The replica I wear of the whirlwind gorget was made by Grady Smith at http://www.creekcarver.com/. He told me that from what he knows of Creek culture, the outer band of triangles would represent the forest, the inner band would represent the village and the whirlwind in the center would represent the Master of the Universe breathing life into the world. Whether or not this intepretation would hold for the Saponi, is, of course, conjecture. From what I understand, a lot of these symbols were used in a fairly widespread way.

I haven't spoken to him in awhile, but I would imagine he's still open for business and willing to make these necklaces and earrings. His prices are very reasonable.

PappyDick

08-18-2008, 10:46 AM

Has there been any findings as to the meaning of the symbols on this gorget?

Not all that recently, but it wasn't on this thread -- I recommended the essay by George Lankford, in the catalogue cited at post #39 in the following thread:

http://www.saponitown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=21464

That has to do with reconstructing native cosmology (in this case, of the mound builders about a thousand years ago, but, hey). There are many sources, including much more recent oral traditional creation myths, etc. But gorgets a good bit like this, specifically including the whirling woodpeckers design (shown above in post #136), are cited and interpreted.

Techteach actually went to see that exhibition (Hero, Hawk, and Open Hand), in Chicago. I just got the catalogue, a couple of years later.

Anyway, in broad terms, there is a three part universe; we're in the middle, and there's a sky world above and an underworld below us. Heroes, gods, shamans, some totemic animals, et al have had the ability to visit between worlds. One route to the above world is via the whirlwind, and one route to the below world is via the whirlpool. (There are other routes, such as flying, climbing rainbows, swimming, entering deep caves, etc. And, most notably in the case of shamans, trances.)

Since I've always thought this particular Occaneechi Town example is meant to be a spinner, that would fit in with the cosmological concept. But ours is several hundred years newer than those Cox Mound style gorgets, with the ivory-billed woodpeckers chasing each other around the perimeter. Our people had lost a lot of the shell-working skills, by 1700; but they hadn't necessarily lost the myth and cosmology these designs appear to have been evoking. It just took a graphically simplified form.

Ga-Nc Collins

08-18-2008, 06:39 PM

The design in the center is not Saponi. the image in the center is the emblem of a tribe...not the Saponi tribe.

If someone wants to wear this design....then they have to keep in mind that is it is not Monacan or Manahoac they are representing with it.

Also it was not found on Monacan or Manahoac land.

Ga-Nc Collins

08-18-2008, 06:42 PM

for the designs around it....it should be noted that when descriptions of the Monacan and Manahoac gorgets was made...it was recorded that most of the gorgets had a star or half moon on the gorget.

This may be the Star design that was mentioned.

sammarroq

08-18-2008, 08:00 PM

Thanks Linda, Pappy and Joseph for your replies...I am not looking to wear the gorget, just have been curious for some time as to its symbolic meaning. At first glance it looks like the swastika, but it appears to have an extra piece??? I looked up the whirlwind symbol and it means infancy or youth; if these were found in burial mounds this would make sense. I may be way off, just a hunch.

Joseph, I am not sure what tribe they belonged to, but wasn't it found at the Occoneechee dig? I have not done a lot of research in the area of Occoneechee Island, but I can tell you I felt an overwelming peace, when we stayed at the park last summer.

I wish I had the time to spend researching the VA/NC tribes, I have a feeling that when the westward push began and these tribes were few in number that they came together as protection agaist larger tribes as well as the Europeans.

Shirley

sammarroq

08-18-2008, 08:09 PM

Not all that recently, but it wasn't on this thread -- I recommended the essay by George Lankford, in the catalogue cited at post #39 in the following thread:

http://www.saponitown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=21464

That has to do with reconstructing native cosmology (in this case, of the mound builders about a thousand years ago, but, hey). There are many sources, including much more recent oral traditional creation myths, etc. But gorgets a good bit like this, specifically including the whirling woodpeckers design (shown above in post #136), are cited and interpreted.

Techteach actually went to see that exhibition (Hero, Hawk, and Open Hand), in Chicago. I just got the catalogue, a couple of years later.

Anyway, in broad terms, there is a three part universe; we're in the middle, and there's a sky world above and an underworld below us. Heroes, gods, shamans, some totemic animals, et al have had the ability to visit between worlds. One route to the above world is via the whirlwind, and one route to the below world is via the whirlpool. (There are other routes, such as flying, climbing rainbows, swimming, entering deep caves, etc. And, most notably in the case of shamans, trances.)

Since I've always thought this particular Occaneechi Town example is meant to be a spinner, that would fit in with the cosmological concept. But ours is several hundred years newer than those Cox Mound style gorgets, with the ivory-billed woodpeckers chasing each other around the perimeter. Our people had lost a lot of the shell-working skills, by 1700; but they hadn't necessarily lost the myth and cosmology these designs appear to have been evoking. It just took a graphically simplified form.

Thanks for the link Pappy, I will check it out :) The whirlwind and whirlpool routes make sense. I always appreciate your wisdom :)

Shirley

sammarroq

08-18-2008, 08:15 PM

Here is how my gorget looks.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c194/Atlanta44/saponi2.jpg

I like your gorget...would you want to share how you made it? Thanks for sharing your creativity and knowledge.

Shirley

Linda

08-19-2008, 12:20 AM

Yes, there's a replica of this gorget at the museum at Occoneechee State Park. I believe it was recovered from the Hillsborough site.

Ga-Nc Collins

08-19-2008, 01:18 AM

Well we originally made up one of the 4 groups of Cahokia.

All the siouans was 1 of the 4 groups...the iroqious made up another one of the 4 groups also.

To make the gorgets....the easiest way is to go to wal mart...in the area that has sunglasses and jewlery...look for the panama jack necklaces...you should find Conch shell discs....about 4 bucks I think.

then you go to the hardware section and get the smallest drill bits....it should be either .98 cents or 1.98....it will have 2 in the pack.

Then you need a drill.....then you drill indentures into the shell. Do not breath the dust in.....

Now for filling in the holes....the historical way was to use Blue pigment made from indigo plants or blue berries.....the red pigments was made from a plant root however that pigment is not very safe.

There is no real symbolic thing about what colors are made with....only the color itself. If you want the color to stay in and stay bright then you could use a dull blue or dull red nail polish......just make sure you have nail polish remover to wipe the shell off.

Don't forget to make the 2 holes in the center before you do anything else with the shell.

Now if you go to walmart's crafts section...you will find "MOP" which is mother of pearl....these discs are smaller but only cost about 1.50.

Ga-Nc Collins

08-19-2008, 01:24 AM

For the orange county area....the occaneechi and Eno was not the only tribes known for living in that area.

The occaneechi would have had a serpant design on their gorget.

there is a old record about the piedmont natives....that description said the emblems was woren on the right shoulder blades and on shell necklaces. That record also went on to say how in virginia the most common design found was the Arrows...each group had their arrows pointed different directions....so there was several combinations of the arrow directions with the 3 arrows. It was going by that record that I started looking for emblem sketches...and thats when I came across the emblem that was found on the Orange county NC gorget.

sammarroq

08-19-2008, 10:00 AM

[Quote] Well we originally made up one of the 4 groups of Cahokia.

All the siouans was 1 of the 4 groups...the iroqious made up another one of the 4 groups also.

Thanks Collins, do you know the time line of the splits of these four groups and the paths they took? I am sure this is complicated.

I was just reading one of Ed McGaa's books again...I thought it was Red Cloud and Chief Crazy Horse where he talked of the circle migration from the piedmont, but he speks in more detail in "Native Wisdom." Which, by the way is a great book:)

Shirley

Ga-Nc Collins

08-19-2008, 06:05 PM

There is a documentary out on Cahokia. "Cahokia - America's Lost Metropolis"

it existed from 850-1400 CE

It was from Collinsville, Illinois to Saint Louis Missouri.

America's first city....largest

The inhabitants left no written records other than symbols on pottery, shell, copper, wood, and stone. The city's original name is unknown.
The name "Cahokia" also refers to an unrelated clan known as Illiniwek
people living in the area when the first French explorers arrived in the 1600s, long after Cahokia was abandoned.

At the high point of its development, Cahokia was the largest urban center north of the great MesoAmerican cities in Mexico. Although it was home to only about 1,000 people before ca. 1050, its population grew explosively after that date. Archaeologists estimate the city's population at between 8,000 and 40,000 at its peak, with more people living in outlying farming villages that supplied the main urban center.
If the highest population estimates are correct, Cahokia was larger than any subsequent city in the United States until about 1800, when Philly's populated reached over 40,000.

Cahokia was abandoned a century or more before Europeans arrived in North America in the early 1500s. Scholars have proposed environmental factors such as over-hunting and deforestation as explanations. Another possible cause is invasion by outside peoples, though the only evidence of warfare found so far is the wooden stockade and watchtowers that enclosed Cahokia's main ceremonial precinct. Due to the lack of other evidence for warfare, the palisade appears to have been more for ritual than military purposes. Diseases transmitted among the large, dense urban population are another possible cause of decline. Many recent theories propose political collapse as the primary reason for Cahokia’s abandonment.

The best way to find where these groups went..is by finding the mound building tribes in the South east and midwest.

http://people.ucls.uchicago.edu/~pdoyle/city8/cahokia_2.jpg

http://www.cahokiamounds.com/images/content/virtual_tour.gif