Big jake Troxel - Cornblossom

[tlagvga]

Hello,

I am new to this forum, and first wish to thank the hosts!

Big problem for us is, Big Jake Troxell supposedly married the daughter of Doublehead.

Does anyone have first hand proof Cornblossom ever existed?

Every source we have followed ends at the same person, and we have dated the appearance of Cornblossom between 1991 and 1994. Before then it seems she never existed.

We never heard of the Thunderbolt Chickamauga until about the same time-frame. And then next we heard about the Laurel Mountain Thunderbolt Chickamauaga?

Can anyone specifically prove the adults who died at the Yahoo Falls Massacre?

It is known Tuckahoe left Margaret Mounce 1821 and returned to the Cherokee. He left behind one son, and one daughter, but so far as we can discern nobody knows their names. Margaret Mounce married Elisha Roberts 30 Jan 1821 in Wayne County Kentucky accoring to Kentucky Marriage Records. The couple can be documented in 1860 and 1870 Census records in Pulaski County Kentucky proving Elisha b. 1798 and Margaret b. 1800.

Big Jake Troxell married Elizabeth Chartier 1781 in Pennsylvania after his service in the Revolutionary War. He married Elizabeth Brewer 22 Nov 1806, in either Pennsylvania or Maryland. He last married Elizabeth Blevins Steele.

Elizabeth Brewer either died or left Jake before March 20, 1823 when he married Elizabeth Blevins Steel, widow of Christian Steel who she married April 12, 1806 in Wayne County, Kentucky (Richard Barrier ... Bondsman for the Steele-Blevins marriage).

This Elizabeth attempted to continue Jake's Pension for his Revolutionary War Service after his decease. Elizabeth Blevins Steel was born 1796 Morgan, Ashe County, North Carolina. She was the daughter of Wells Blevins, and Elizabeth Armstrong ... married 22 May 1789 in Patrick County, Virginia. Jake and Elizabeth Blevins Steel had one daughter.

We have accounted for every child born to Jake and his three wives, and all of them survived by at least 20 years the event that supposedly took place at Yahoo Falls, Kentucky 1810.

It seems people are confused about War Chief Peter Troxell. He was the bastard son of David Troxell and Elizabeth Chartier. Elizabeth was the grandaughter of Peter Chartier, a Canadian Fur Trader who married a Pekowi Woman. Peter Troxell is the man who married Jenny Stevenson (Standing Fern) 16 Jan 1803 in Wayne County, Kentucky (marriage record is extant).

Anyone have any ideas about all of this?

Thanx,

tlagvga

[Bill Childs]

Hi, Tlagvga,
Vance Hawkins on the "Share Historical Research" portion of this forum may be able to help you with questions on the Chickamaga, Yahoo Falls and has some research sources on the subject of Doublehead's family and possibly has some thoughts about Cornblossom.

Is the MOUNCE girl's father the John MOUNTZ (spelling variation) in 1820 Wayne Co a few houses from William ROBERTS?
Bill

[tlagvga]

Hello Bill,

The Margaret Mounce who married Elisha Roberts is the daugher of John Mounce Jr., which is the brother of Margaret Mounce who married Tuckahoe. So far as we have determined, nobody has been able to establish an accurate date of when the Margaret - Tuckahoe union occurred.

We think the 1820 Census record of your interest proves to be the Son of John Mounce, John Mounce Jr. The 1860 & 1870 Census proves Margaret & Elisha still living, which should prove Margaret as the daughter of John Mounce Jr.

Thanx for the info on the other forum.

tlagvga

[vance hawkins]

howdy --

I don't go to work until tomorrow, so I have one more day of vacation time.

i.] Once upon a time I believed all that stuff. I saw the genealogies, and saw a Rainwater mentioned. well they married into my Arkansas family, and also one Rainwater was the pastor at my great grandparents wedding.

I was all excited. I also saw the Brock website talking about Jessee Brock, whose father was "Aaron Brock aka "Red Bird". He too says his ancestor viewed the Yahoo Falls Massacre. Doublehead was Sequoyah's (whose English name was George Guess) Uncle and and my great great grandma was Hariet Guess. So I was interested in all this.

2. I contacted these websites and people were frinedly at first. But I kept asking questions and they quit being so friendly. One reason I started Chickamauga research yahoo group was to find out which stories were true and which weren't.

I contacted a professional archaeologist who was employed in Wayne County, Ky and who works for Daniel Boone National forest and he referred me to a local historian. Oh, he said there is no physical evidence, and there never has been any physical evidence of a massacre at the falls.

I asked the local historian, who told me he was a descendant of the Slaven family, which is too a family mentioned in those genealogies and stories on those websites. He questioned those Troxell tales before I did. He said he'd been a long time employee of the forest service, and was raised in/near Daniel Boone National Forest in Wayne County, as his father worked there before him.

There seem to be three books at the origin of these tales -- one by Robert Collins (no relation to the Melungeon or Saponi Collinses), one by Thomas Troxell entitled "Legion of the Lost Mine", and "Legend of the Che Nee People". People xeroxed the last 2 and I purchased then, and i obtained the first from a library loan program. None of the 3 provide primary source documentation for the events they portray.

According to the historian from Wayne County, there was no Cornblossom, or Tuckahoe, and no Yahoo Falls Massacre. Acording to Cherokee history written by the Cherokee themselves, there was no Cornblossom, no Tuckahoe, and no Yahoo Falls Massacre. There is no historical documentation in any newspaper of the era, no government document, and there is no Cherokee record either of any of this.

Doublehead never lived in this region, but he lived in the Cherokee Nation where he also died. The wife he is given in those stories is also not proven and is most likely mythical as well. Thomas Troxell mentions in the forward of his book that some characters are "fictitious" but his relative Dan Troxell on his website assumes it is all true. And in the original homas Troxell book there is no mention of a Yahoo Falls Massacre. That was introduced by Collins.

Tankersley adds his mythical version by saying his "Red Bird" was killed with an unknown Cherokee after the Yahoo Falls massacre. However there is a Red Bird who was killed in 1797 -- a decade and a half before the date of that so-called massacre, messing up Tankersley's family timeline severly. One more thing. His ancestor Jessee Brock whom he claims is a Cherokee, was living as a pretty close neighbor to one of my ancestor in the late 1790s -- in lower Scott County, Virginia. If Jessee was Indian, he was most likely Saponi like the rest of us here, seein as how he lived in that community. :) and NOT in the Cherokee Nation. And that Redbird River in Kentucky might as likely be associated with the Sizemore's "Red Rird" as with the Cherokee who was killed in S Ky by that name in 1797.

There was a Cherokee named "Red Bird" whose name was on a treaty or 2, but there is no evidence he was ever in Kentucky as was the one killed there in 1797 (while on a hunting trip -- he too lived in the Cheroke Nation, and not in Ky).

I read that when the first settlers came to the region around wayne county, they found Indians living there. There are several ways to take this. i.] They stumbled upon a hunting party and mistook them for permanent settlers. ii.] Outlaw Cherokee were sometimes told to live in the hunting grounds, being banned from the settlements. Doublehead was NOT an outlaw at this time and was not banished from the nation). iii.] This is just 2 counties west of the Melungeon settlements near Greasy Rock. So perhaps they were Piedmont Siouan and not Cherokee, who ventured further west at an earlier date. iv.] It is possible the Cherokee gave permission for some group to live there, such as the Yuchi/Euchee.

Fake histories are bad for many reasons. The Cherokee have always said these stories are not true, and have also said they might be Indian but from another tribe. It is time to believe what they have always said, I think.

One book and author that has it in the right perspective is Samuel D. Perry and his book South Fork Country is an excellent source for honest REAL stories about the history of that part of the Country. It is possible individual Cherokee families DID emigrate there about the time of the removal, or just before or after it.

But this has nothing to do with Doublehead at all. He had daughters who married the Chickasaw Colbert's, and their descendants are enrolled Chickasaw today. Bird Doublehead was given the honor of killing one of the Ridges after the removal, since he'd been instrumebntal in the killing of Doublehead in 1807 at Hiwasee, NOT near Doublehead's so-called cave in Ky. Bird Doublehead's known descendants travelled the trail of Tears and are enrolled in the Cherokee Nation today. If you bring this topic up today amongst the Cherokee and ask them, they'll tell you "Cornblossom" is a silly name as corn doesn't bloom ad the conversation will probably end right there.

Thank you for your question. I used to get pelted with rocks and rotten eggs on other message sites when I'd bring this topic up, but more and more people are learning what really happend, and that is great.

vance

[tlagvga]

Hello Vance,

Thank you for a most excellent and thoughtful response.

My heritage is truly mixed - Cherokee, Shawnee, Osage, Navajo, Zuni, and Hopi - those six we have documented and proved without doubt, and most likely we have some of the lesser-known eastern tribes as well. My immigrant direct line starts in Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Virginia ... with a family of eight siblings all-migrating to the New Land as early as 1634 at Jamestown. Later arrivals up to 1682 included many cousins, aunts, and uncles to Pennsylvania and Virginia.

My language skills are barely adequate to put a few words together in a couple of native tongues, but for the life of me, in no way could we ever put Cornblossom together in Cherokee, or Shawnee. We are familiar with the Tankersly information and it appears to us he is "in the game only for the money." His claim to fame is via the Benge family, but we quickly dispensed with that claim since a very close personal friend of our family is a McLemore (distant relative of Chief Robert Benge), who does have a nearly complete record for that line. We are also very close friends with a Vincent Hobbs direct down line grandson whose grand pappy shot and killed Robert. Fact is, the three of us live within two miles of one another, and are of the same generation. Our ages are 61, 64, and 73 years. So far, nothing but good will amongst us.

Run After McLemore is the reason for the McLemore family locating in Missouri. She passed directly through here on the Trail of Tears 1838, and then wrote a letter telling her family in Tennessee and Kentucky to "move to Missouri." That letter in the McLemore family archives and was dated January 1839 at Tahlequah. The McLemore family also has a picture of Run After, and her youngest daughter Catherine b 1832.

We have copies of the letters between Governors Sevier and Garrard concerning the murders of Red Bird and Will 1797, including the Order by Sever issued to the Sheriff to arrest Ned Mitchell and John Livingston (correct spelling). I think there is a copy of another letter we have, which notifies the Cherokee people about the murders also.

According to the McLemore family records, John McLemore who died 1844 at Knoxville Tennessee was a close personal friend of the oldest son of Red Bird murdered 1797, and signed two Treaties with him. 1) Treaty of Tellico October 1805 signed as Tochuwor. 2) Treaty of Washington D.C. January 1806 signed as Redbird. The Treaty of 1805 at Tellico he signed as a warrior, and was ranking man in the area affected which was then without a Chief. The Treaty of Washington D.C. he signed as Redbird for he had been elected or appointed Chief by a delegation, what delegation and where, we have never been able to validate outside the McLemore family archives. There are some records of Return J. Meigs which everyone knows is missing, and he would have most likely have been the one to give such advice to the local people. We also know the two men went to Washington D.C. with John Greenwood (Sour Mush). The three men allowed seven days from Knoxville to Washington D.C., a distance of more than 450 miles. We are not sure but have a bit of information that causes us to think Meigs made the trip with them. We do know the three men made an agreement between them never to sign another treaty afterward. And to our knowledge, none did.

The source for most of this information is a family diary kept by John McLemore’s wife, Sarah Carnes. No doubt the Carnes name will ring someone’s bell! That family must be the most difficult family to trace that ever existed! On second thought, the Briggs family could be even worse. The McLemore men started marrying Native women with the first émigrés son, James who married direct into the Gilliam family. That James married Fortune Gilliam. Consecutive McLemore men then married Gilliam, Briggs, Edward, Clanton, Carnes and other known full and mixed blood women.

One thing we have learned about the McLemore line, most people have it terribly wrong. Run After had several brothers and sisters, and all of them but two married whites. The only two that married Indian were Run After born 1783 the youngest, and Happy, the oldest who was born circa 1756. They were the daughters of Robert McLemore, the son of Charles McLemore and Quatsis Greenwood. Quatsis was the daughter of Chief Caesar (Thomas) Greenwood and Katie (Shawnee woman). Robert signed the Treaty of Holston July 2, 1791 as Robin McLemore, and according to the diary, nobody could figure out how to say “Robert” in Cherokee.

Again, many thanks for the information. We just want to be sure Cornblossom never existed just in case we step on someone’s toes inadvertently.

Before I forget, the Will killed with Red Bird 1797 was Chief Will of Akoha who signed the Treaty of Hopewell November 28, 1785.

[vance hawkins]

well I'd like to thank you as well for that information. You had some info I didn't have. Sometimes I get all in a huff about someting and get real zealous, and research it just to shut somebody up who seems too (or so i think) "uppity" or arrogant or a "know it all" and Tankersley fit the bill, so I really went to town on this topic. I even went after the grissle and I normally wouldn't touch that. :)

I found some of that info about Red Bird on a website called http://dlg.galileo.usg.edu/?Welcome

go there then click on "peoples and culture"

scroll down to

"Southeastern Native American Documents, 1730-1842 "

and click on it. At the "search" option write in "Redbird" and much of what you said will pop up. But if I recall it right it never mentioned the name of the person killed with Red Bird, so I appreciate hearing about that. You can search for all kinds of things at that site. And I never knew who the person who signed those treaties as "Red Bird" was, but since I read one Redbird died in 1797, well i supposed it wasn't him. Deducin' that took some smarts, didn't it?

I thought it interesting how careful those governors wrote the Cherokee Nation about those two murders. They didn't want a war to erupt over it, considering the old blood laws & all. So if there was an 1811 massacre of children, don't you think people woulda been upset enough to act on that, especially since that was the timeframe the Creek Red Sticks were getting all worked up, Tecumseh was travelling around trying to get tribes to unite with him, et cetera. Such a horrible massacre might have turned the tide and taken the Cherokee down a different path, don't ya think? They might have allied themselves with the Red Sticks and then what would have become of Andy Jackson? Well ya never know.

What you said about the Troxells was interesting, too. I'd heard they came from Pennsylvania, but that's all I knew really. You filled in a lot. thanks.

Tlagvga, there are some people here that are very knowledgeable about Maryland, Virginia, and neighboring states. I'm a beginner when it comes to researching them and have learned a lot here. They may be able to help you. I have found reading history helps me to understand migration patterns, as a great many Indians from the east Coast ended up in Oklahoma (where my family ended up) or the Six nations or elsewhere, and much to my lack of knowledge, many remained right where they were. If you provide a few surnames, some people here will be very helpful.

vance

[tlagvga]

Hello Vance,

We use the Georgia Galileo site for documentation on occasion, and find it an excellent source. Our copies came from the University of Georgia, which does house the Archives on the Galileo site.

Frankly I have never understand how a preponderant event such as the Yahoo Falls Massacre as described could have went without local people of all colors raising an uproar. Killing adult men is one thing, but mass execution of women and children is an entirely different subject. Even in 1810 we seriously doubt that Governor Scott or Attorney General Blair would have allowed the event to go without taking some action. And methinks the local Indians would have screamed long and loud, loud enough for a certain Shawnee Chief to make a move ... and for those people who don't know everything, Panther-in-the-Sky once said-

"Give me 1000 strong warriors and we can take Washington!"

When he said it 1800, my money would have been on Tecumseh!

Had he ever amassed an army, Tecumseh was probably one of the better, if not the best Indian military tactician that ever lived. Of course the Plains Indians had some great leaders, as well as the Comanche and Apache. What we have learned is, the Great Chiefs were almost always Great Statesman too.

I find it interesting you have Guess Ancestors, but strangely not because of Sequoyah. My interest is in a George Guess b. circa 1705 Bath County, North Carolina. His father was Laurens De Gues b. 1637 Metz, , Nord-Pas-DE-Calais, France. George Guess dropped the De, and added an "S" to become George Guess. He spoke English, French, Cherokee, Choctaw, Shawnee, and a host of Mississippi Indian languages. He was a horse trader, and made a fortune trading horses with anyone who wanted a horse. He has been tracked to the Rocky Mountains before 1725, and to Alamogordo New Mexico by 1730. He never married, or had a wife that anyone can prove, and he supposedly was a friend of every Indian he ever met. His father immigrated 1671 to Delaware from France when about age 34 years. His mother was a Powhatan woman who his father took to wife around 1680. His father died Bath, North Carolina 1722. According to his partner, George died 1765 when trying to cross the Tennessee River somewhere south of the Georgia-Tennessee border.

Do you have any information on this particular George Guess?

He was supposed to have several brothers and sisters, but we have never been able to document a single one. This George Guess had a son we have documented with a Pawnee woman 1741-42 in what is now Eastern Kansas. We know he provided some of the first horses to several Eastern and Southern tribes, at least some of those not stolen from the Spaniards in Florida, or the new white settlers.

Too bad he was not born sooner. Just think, 1000 mounted warriors against the militia units so common among the early settlers. Things today might be a bit different todqy.

Thank you,

[vance hawkins]

http://www.saponitown.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1458&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

A photo of my ancestor Hariet Huess Brown (@1818-1886) is found in the 2nd post here. I said then the baby in Hariet's arms was my great grandma, but I really am not certain. She had 2 younger sisters burn as late as 1857. Maybe it was one of them.

There are 2 family stories that I know of. Dad (1915-1992) went by his grandma's house on the way to school. He said often he stopped there before returning home. He only had an 8th grade education, but in the 6th 7th or 8th grade, i don't know which, he took Oklahoma History. he said his grandma saw a picture of an "Indian" in his Oklahoma History book and said (paraphrasing) to him, 'You know you are related to him?" hat's all I recall dad sayin'." Well, when I got older, and he got older, I wanted to know more (too bad I didn't ask more at the time we were both younger). One day I found that famous painting of Sequoyah, with the pipe, turban, and syllabry. I asked him if that was the man in the Oklahoma History book his grandma said we were related to. All dad ever said tho was, "I don't remember."

Now only one of dad's sisters, the youngest, is still alive. about 2000 or 2001 I wrote her and asked her what she knew of the story we were related to Sequoyah. Her reply was that her grandma didn't tell her anyhting about it. well Aunt Lorena was born 1925 and G-grandma Josie died in 1932, so that is understandable. ut she told me her mother had mentioned it, and said as she remembered she was told her great-grandma (who was Hariet Guess Brown) was "Sequoyah's niece or great niece." I remember and know my Uncles and might have called my great uncles "Uncle" too, but I ever would have thought of doing that in reverse, that is calling a uncle, a great uncle. So I suspect great uncle for that reason, and not uncle. If that was the case, then Hariet's father would have been a "nephew." Now this is if the family story is true, and we can't prove it.

On the emigration rolls it says Sequoyah came to Arkansas with a party of 11 from Willstown, and Toochelar if my memory is correct, was Chief of Willstown and he was a well known Arkansas Chief. I have wondered who the other 10 were wo came with Sequoyah. here was a Thomas Gist in 1828 at Nicks Township which was about 7 miles from Sequoyah's cabin in Sequoyah County, Ok. My relations were in that area in the 1870s according to Indian/Pioneer Papers.

In N Alabama there are several families of Gists who all have stories of Indian ancestry who can't quite be tied to Sequoyah and mine appear to have come from there. On 1850 census hariet Guess Brown said she was born in Alabama, in 1860 & 70 she said Tennessee and in 1880 she says Georgia. To confuse it more, her daughter (My great grandma) on 1900 census of the Chickasaw Nation (where they'd moved to) said her mother was born in Mississippi. She says this on 1910 and 1920 Oklahoma census records as well.

I think she said Mississippi because they were in the Chckasaw Nation and were thinking of Dawes in 1900, and to be enrolled they had to have lived where the Chickasaw were. But then they never signed up for Dawes, so we are ot on accepted or rejected Dawes. I think Harriet was probably born near where Ga, Tn and Al meet. Since she was born 1818 and moved to Arkansas she might not have known exactly where in the East she was born, so to make sure and get it right she named all possible states . . . one of 'em's gotta be right . . . :) But I am guessing as to why. we might not ever find out, I don't know, but I am gonna keep looking.

vance

[vance hawkins]

I have heard it said Sequoyah's father was Nathaniel Gist or a german peddler named George Guess. I tthis prson you are referring to the 2nd, George Guess? I have never heard anything else about him, and have wondered about him.

I'd like to know more about him.

vance

[Bill Childs]

Tla gv ga
Is your Peter Troxell the same as the one on the 1800 Pulaski Co., Ky Tax List?
Is this the line from earlier Frederick Co., Md and Huntingdon and Northampton Co., Pa.?
Bill

[tlagvga]

Hello Vance,

I totally understand the memory problems with people that endured the relocation process, and the down line children who did not know or were never told where or when, of family matters. We once thought our gg-grandmother was full blood but recently several family records owned by my great aunt who died 1982 firmly established she was Cherokee-Shawnee-White Metis.

I was fortunate to spend an entire summer with my grandfather 1953. He was then 68, me 11, and he instilled within me a love for our heritage. He told me, "It is not what you think of yourself that proves character; it is what others think about you that is your character." I try to remember his words daily.

Yes, the information we have starts with the emigree, and it is his son George Guess who was the horse trader. I will dig out the information we have on him and try to get it posted in the next few days.

Thank you,

[tlagvga]

Hello Bill,

Yes, the original emigree was Peter Troxell to Pennsylvania, then Maryland, and some of his children moved to Virginia. He and his wife had eight children, all very well documented. Big Jake's father was David, but Peter, Jake's half-brother was a bastard son born to David and a Shawnee-French Metis woman of the Chartier family. David and his wife had seven children, and David's wife raised Peter as her own son. Big Jake was their first child.

[vance hawkins]

Thanks for that info on the Troxells.

I think there were a lot of mixed-blood people who went west will the first settlers and I think many of these for what ever reason, have clung to the idea their "Indian" ancestor was Cherokee, when quite often they were not.

vance

[tlagvga]

Hello Vance,

An aspect we have often wondered about is by 1840 how many Eastern full blood Indians remained of their respective tribes. I also wonder if anyone has done such a study?

My gg-grandfather was a US Marshall in Indian Territory Oklahoma from 1870 to 1875 before he moved to Texas. We have some of his thoughts recorded in letters which makes a person wonder the why of relocation was ever allowed.

Yesterday the Associated Press issued a press release concening historical documentation for the Trail of Tears, and emphasized the "lack of accurate record keeping" rampant during removal. Follows is a copy of the Original Release from the Associated Press ... Please note: We looked but could not find a Copyright notice, but anyone so using it should verify Copyright usage prior to use.
---------------

"By Jeffrey McMurray, Associated Press Writer June 29, 2005

WASHINGTON --The tale is true. The trail is sometimes false. History has documented the plight of American Indians evicted from Southern communities in the 1830s and forced on a deadly journey toward Oklahoma. However, official recognition of the path of some 15,000 Cherokees was often based more on guesswork than evidence.

Now the records are starting to catch up with the story. Several lawmakers demanded on Wednesday that the Interior Department do a better job retracing the Cherokees' route along the Trail of Tears.

"The Trail of Tears is a tragic story, but it is very much an integral part of American history," said Rep. Zach Wamp, a Tennessee Republican who introduced legislation late Tuesday seeking a comprehensive review of the trail. "We need to document it better. We need to interpret it better."

When Congress made the pathway a national historical trail in 1987, research was limited. Historians have since uncovered glaring omissions: There were no routes in North Carolina or Georgia, even though up to three-quarters of the Cherokees likely started from those states.

The official trail markers also leave out two major arteries in Arkansas and water routes in eastern Tennessee.

"It is unacceptable that such a critical part of our history remains a patchwork of missing pieces," said Rep. Marion Berry, D-Ark., a co-sponsor.

The Trail of Tears Documentation Act would direct the Interior Department to review the new evidence and complete the historical picture through markers and other forms of recognition.

In 1830 when President Andrew Jackson sought to remove the tribes, most lawmakers were mum. Davy Crockett was the lone Tennessee congressman to oppose the plans and lost re-election as a result.

Many white settlers who replaced the Cherokees were motivated by the search for gold. But "the gold was the Cherokee people," said Jack Baker, president of the Trail of Tears Association.

Removal of the culturally advanced Cherokees was a huge loss to the region, Baker said.

Current Cherokee leaders brought a modern scroll to Wednesday's news conference. Stretching across a committee room, it listed the names of Indians who petitioned the government in vain in 1830s to stop the removal.

Chadwick Smith, principal chief of the Cherokee Nation, said one-quarter of the Cherokees died before reaching Oklahoma and called their plight a "travesty of justice, sham of public policy, and disdain for human dignity." He said he hoped the bill would prevent such actions in the future.

Duane King, executive director of the Southwest Museum of the American Indian, said a more complete picture of the story has emerged from studying eyewitness accounts, military journals, payment vouchers and newspaper stories and it's time to incorporate that into public recognition.

"We are still struggling to understand why it happened, how it affected the people involved and its importance on American political thought and justice," King said.
------
The bill is H.R. 3085."

-------------------------------

Now, if we could only do something about Andrew Jackson.

[vance hawkins]

Tlagvga --

there is a book --

Dianna Everett, The Texas Cherokees: A People between Two Fires, 1819-1840 (Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1990).

=========

I have read it alhto I don't have a copy. I got it through library loan. I recall it mentioning government reports of a count of just how many Indians remained East of the Mississippi -- the government kept these records. They seem to have ignored mixed-blood communities which still existed. The number was very low, just a handful. Since I don't have the book any more all I can say is I recall reading it in that book.

It reminded me of them patting themselves on the back for finally succeeding in achieving the "final solution" to the "Indian problem".

Vance

[vance hawkins]

Tlagvga --

there is a book --

Dianna Everett, The Texas Cherokees: A People between Two Fires, 1819-1840 (Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1990).

=========

I have read it alhto I don't have a copy. I got it through library loan. I recall it mentioning government reports of a count of just how many Indians remained East of the Mississippi -- the government kept these records. They seem to have ignored mixed-blood communities which still existed. The number was very low, just a handful. Since I don't have the book any more all I can say is I recall reading it in that book.

I believe the numbers it gave was before 1840 however, in anticipation of how many would be moving west, date probably about 1830s.

Vance

[tlagvga]

Hello Vance,

From information we have accumulated, we have estimated that of the dominant Eastern Tribes more than 60% managed to intergrate into white society, and approximately 10-12% managed to survive on their own independent of white society, and gained official government recognition during the late 1800s and early 1900s. We know of more than 30 "safe houses" in Missouri and Eastern Kansas used to help Cherokee, Shawnee, Creek, and some lesser known tribal peoples integrate circa 1825 through 1860. A favorite Trail of Tears participant "escape point" was along the trail on the Gasconade and Niangua Rivers in several locations in Missouri. We also know there were at least three different trails used in Missouri other than the "published mapping" suggests.

From available records nobody knows when some of the groups departed on their particular journey, or when they arrived in Oklahoma. What has always seemed so strange and odd to us, the fact that documentation of the Removal was so loosely controlled, with significant expenses paid out but unaccounted for in later records.

The only quote by Andrew Jackson that I find to be true-

" "I know what I am fit for. I can command a body of men in a rough way; but I am not fit to be President."

He surely was not fit to be President for he was two-faced, and a poor example of a human being.

Junaluska said,

“Oh my God, if I had known at the Battle of Horseshoe what I now know, American history would have been differently written.”

A sad day for everyone when Junaluska saved the butcher's life.

[vance hawkins]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chickamauga_researcher/

Above is my Chickamauga history research site. It is open to everyone and anyone can post there. Linda, I am gonna post thre about this conversation on oyur forum, as people there would love to know about this conversation also. One has to know "boundaries", adn knonwing which emigrants were Cherokee and which were Piedmont Siouan, or descendants of the other tribes forcibly removed from (Pa/Oh South to Ga) will help people who have their genealogy mixed up understand it better.

Do you have documentation for the "safe houses" and other things of which you speak? Would you mind sharing it?

I have heard a number of people speak of Missouri Cherokee and all I could find was i.] records from American State papers/Indian Affairs of a camp/community begun during the Chickamauga Wars 1770s-1790s that remained until the 1811 New Madrid Earthquake, when the people moved to the White River, the Arkansas River near Dardanelles and other nearby locations. This was in the SE corner of Missouri.

Doublehead was recorded there (SE Mo during the Chickamauga Wars 1770s-1790s) from time to time, by the way, but he was always passing through on the way to or from a raid on the settlers on the Cumberland and/or nearby Rivers.

I have heard of a "Cherokee Civil War" in the 1840s but never seen it very well documented. I also heard during the Civil war some Cherokee might have moved to Missouri. However none of this is very well documented to the best of my knowledge, and I'd love to know where such documentation can be found.

Documentation of these "safehouses" that you speak of would go a long way towards confirming the ancestry of some people. I'd love to know where this is found. Thanksk you for bringing it up here. I have been searching for somehting like this for some time, now. :)

vance

vance

[tlagvga]

Hello Vance,

Most of our information originated from three sources. 1) The McLemore family. 2) Tracking the families of major Treaty signers beginning 1775 at Sycamore Shoals 3) Information from my grandfathers, and their fathers.

Émigré family 1667 Frederick County, Maryland -
Next 1721 moved to Bucks County, Pennsylvania-
Next 1780 moved to Madison County, Kentucky-
Next 1821 moved to Platte County, Missouri-
Next 1844 moved to Johnson County, Missouri-
Next 1875 Indian Nation Oklahoma Territory-

Beginning with my ggg-grandfather who made the move to Madison County, Kentucky 1780 when age 25, my grandfathers and their sons supplied the US Military, settlers, and Indians alike without reservations concerning the “who” traded or sold to. Items readily supplied were tarps, tents, ropes, harness, saddles, wagons, oxen, mules, horses, and other paraphernalia necessary for life in a difficult environment. He built a facility to make the tarps, tents, and ropes, and employed people to make saddles, bridles, and harnesses. He was an entrapeneur. Locally he supplied salt, sugar, spices, flour (owned mill), corn meal, coffee, tea, dried or cured meat, fish, dried beans, and in season local melons and squash. He would trade with anyone and everyone for whatever they had to trade, furs, produce, and tobacco. Of course he would buy and pay with cash, and sell for cash. He did not trade liquor that we are aware of, but did a booming business with guns, gunpowder and lead, knives, axes, iron kettles, pots, pans, and cloth.

His sons and daughters (thirteen of them) continued the business after he died 1825, and some of them moved to the area of Platte County Missouri, and they established another facility at Independence Missouri 1831. My gg-grandfather moved to Johnson County Missouri as soon as they shut down operations in Madison County Kentucky. From the three locations they supplied everyone without reservation. Several members of the family married mixed blood spouses, and remained neutral in the ongoing events. I am sure that must have been very trying on occasion. A band of Kiowa Indians killed my gg-grandfather, and a man who worked for him. His wife was the mother of my direct line gg-grandmother. They were killed at Blackney Ford on the Neosho River in what is today Neosho County, Kansas 12 May 1852. They had delivered supplies to a new Dirt Fort located just east of Dodge City Kansas, and were returning home. The father of my gg-grandmother who was killed married a 5/8 blood Shawnee-Cherokee-White Metis.

According to my g-grandfather, Indians were Indians when he was US Marshall in Indian Territory Oklahoma 1875 – 1880. He married the 5/16 Metis daughter 1868, whose father was killed at Blackney Ford. My family has been associated with the Shawnee-Cherokee since 1670 or thereabouts, and we know the history that came forward is mostly what the White men wanted brought forward.

We have among the McLemore information diaries beginning 1680, and the same for my family in England beginning the 1500s. Both families endured the Reformation, and they immigrated because of ongoing situations that become, unbearable. Because of the age of many of the items we prefer not to handle them if at all possible, so we must use the transcriptions made circa 1982 for my family by an aunt. The McLemore’s transcribed their information in the early 1900s. We have access to the Hobbs family collection of artifacts and documents including Vincent Hobbs who shot and killed Robert Benge. We have seen the Silver Engraved rifle sent to him by Virginia Governor Robert Brooke. In that collection there is nothing much of interest excepting you are a Hobbs researcher.

Ask anyone what happened to Tachee, the son of Attakullakulla b. 1736. They might tell you he had a son named Tachee Jr. b. 1775, but nothing more. Fact is, he died in Audrain County, Missouri after 1828, and his family continued the Safe House they originated 1811 for another 27 years after he died. Because of the “rift” between father and son, Attakullakulla and Dragging Canoe, the Cherokee missed the boat following that family down line. We have direct knowledge of a fight between Ostenaco and Little Carpenter, and Ostenaco beat Attakullakulla rather severely. The truth is Ostenaco did not kill him because of his children. That was when Ostenaco moved from the Overhills to Georgia. The Cherokee claim Attakullakulla had eight children. He had ten; he had eight sons and two daughters with three different wives. All of the children survived to adulthood and took spouses.

I guess the problem we have is the downright refusal of the Cherokee Nation West in its pragmatic rejection of everyone that did not make the Dawes. That alone is enough for us to not even want to be a member of that nation because the CNW turned their faces away from their own brethren. In the process, what was once a Great People, become a puppet belonging to the US Government puppeteers. This is one subject that makes my blood boil, for the historical facts have been hidden so long the damage done is probably irreversible in that, what is taught in classrooms today does not reflect the truth of events as they occurred, and specifically, we don’t have much use for the people who did these things to the Cherokee.

More thoughts about Sequoyah, the picture you find with him wearing the turban, and holding the copy of the syllabary is not Sequoyah. Sequoyah had only stubs of fingers with one joint on both hands. They were cut off in the middle joint. His ears were cut off, and he was branded in the center of his forehead with the brand of traitors. He was also branded in the middle of his back between his shoulder blades with the same mark.

Sequoyah fought with Dragging Canoe, and attended the Treaty of Holston 1791 with him. That was the treaty where Dragging Canoe made his famous speech, and refused to sign the treaty. Dragging Canoe repeatedly asked to “read the treaty” himself, but was refused on the basis, he could not read or write English.

Dragging Canoe could write English better than most people today, and he could speak it with authority. They say he was one heck of a poker player.

[vance hawkins]

If you have actual documents of undocumented Cherokee Indians in Missouri, that would be of great interest to many people who claim Cherokee blood and are from Missouri, but are told the Cherokee never settled there. Is this published anywhere? Would you mind sharing the transcription? It would mean a lot . . .

As far as the Cherokee Nation goes, their hands are tied. The BIA forces all Indian people to jump through hoops for recognition. The Cherokee receive people of any blood quantum (for those on Dawes) and just about every other tribe has 1/8th blood quantum, or some have 1/4th. So their membership requirements are actually more lenient than most tribal governments.

Dawes was really nothing more than a list of people who were eligible to be allotted 160 acres of land, and nothing more. It was a poor choice of citeria for tribal membership, in my opinion (which is worth its weight in hot air). I don't share your view towards the Cherokee Nation, but I do understand it, and know that there are many who feel that way.

I too have relatives who were soldiers in Indian territory. Jarrett and James Wayland (they were brothers, and they are cousins to my direct ancestor, Sarah Ann Wayland Richey) -- they were members of "Beans Rangers" stationed at Fort Gibson in 1830, and their names still pop up on rolls of soldiers stationed there as late as 1836 (I have never checked beyond 1836). They went on the famous expedition with Levenworth, Dodge, Arbuckle, Jeff Davis, writer Washington Irving went on and wrote about this expedition as did the famous artist George Catlin (this is when/where Tahchee's (aka Captain William Dutch) portrait was painted), Tahchee went as a scount as did David Melton, who it was recorded is related to Doublehead. Shortly before this same timeframe George Catlin painted Sequoyah's portrait, the one you said is not of Sequoyah.

The troops on this expedition were called "Dragoons" and they visited Kiowa, Comanche, and Wichita villages, and signed a peace treaty at a Wichita village where Elm Creek runs into the North Fork of the Red in present day Greek County, Ok, I believe it was 1834, a couple of years after the Cut-throat Gap Massacre of a couple of hundred Kiowa by the Osage. I presently live just 30 or so miles from the site of that massacre, and about 20 miles distance from the place the treaty was signed. It was the first treaty signed between the US govt and these Southern Plains tribes who still live around here.

Vance

[tlagvga]

Hello Vance,

In the course of our research we proved several surnames long associated with Shawnee and Cherokee as living in Missouri and Eastern Kansas. This is especially true prior to the Civil War circa 1850. Dominate names, Welch, Greenwood, White Carnes, Watts, Briggs, Gilliam, Lowery, Boone, McLemore, and Wayland. Check the 1850 Missouri Census for these names and look for origin state. While doing so, you will also notice Missouri births are common before statehood among those particular names. It is hard to prove which tribe people settling in Missouri and Kansas actually belonged to for many of the people traveled in mixed groups representing several tribes, and a lot of them the lesser known tribes that were “adopted” Shawnee, Cherokee, Creek and Chickasaw. It appears Missouri become home for a large group of Chickasaw after Kentucky freed up their lands in Western Kentucky 1817-1818.

We can prepare a list of known Safe Houses, the locations, and dates they were active, which we would be willing to share. Several were located along the Trail of Tears. The mapping everyone uses for the Trail in Missouri is more or less worthless. There was no set single trail once leaving the Illinois border. In the fall of 1828 conditions in Missouri were very dry, and people had to travel where there was adequate water. That changed drastically in December when the Mississippi was moving so much ice many people were stranded for several weeks waiting to cross the River because of Ice. The Indians learned the trail would pass through Missouri not long after the Removal Order passed Congress because of scouting reports, and existing roads. Missouri circa 1838 had very few trees, with significant prairie land north of the Ozark Mountains to the Missouri River.

Missouri become a state in 1821 and hundreds of thousands of acres were up for sale to anyone in 160-acre tracts. It seemed nobody paid much attention to neighbors and farm labor was in short supply, a win-win situation for everyone. To plot the basic Trail in Missouri, you can use any of the published maps; however, there was no set trail, and people had to travel near water when possible. Follow the Trail to Pulaski County in Missouri, from there the Trail deviated in several places. On December 9, 1838 one group was refused a place to camp near Waynesville in Pulaski County. If it were not for Colonel Swink and his wife who allowed them to camp on their property, most of them would have died. They were cold, hungry, and afoot because they ate their animals, and were without any blankets or warm clothing. The Swink family gave them enough walking beef, corn, and other provisions to finish the trip. Many people swore Colonel Swink went to the nearby fort at Rolla Missouri with two neighbors, and at gunpoint demanded enough blankets to keep the people from freezing to death. Colonel Swink was a retired veteran; his family stated he resigned his commission because of the Indian Removal act, and openly stated if he ever saw Andrew Jackson again he would shoot him on sight. We have no documentation concerning the events at Waynesville Missouri December 9, 1838, but we believe them to be true. Very few people know the Removal began much earlier than 1838. We have documented the first known group to travel the Trail through Missouri took place 1837, and was under the command of conductor, B.B. Cannon escorting 365 persons.

This may not be the place for this; however, we think these types of documentaries are needed by many researchers; therefore, a few comments. Without this type of reference material people simply will never understand the terrible conditions the people who made these trips endured. Why in the world would anyone plan a departure for a journey known to take several months during the month of October? We know why, and we fully understand why. Such planning was nothing less than calculated and planned genocide a people specifically designed to reduce their numbers for easier management once they arrived at destination.

What follows in the next three posts is the Chronological Record submitted by B. B. Cannon, Condudtor.



-----------------------------------------

[tlagvga]

Post 1 of 3........

Chronology of the First Wagon Train of Cherokee to pass through Missouri on the Trail of Tears starting October 13, 1837

Cannon, B.B. - 1837 - Cherokee Removal
B. B. Cannon’s Journal of Occurrences with a Party of Cherokee Emigrants. October 1837
A Journal of occurrences in conformity with the Revised Regulations No 5. Paragraph 8. kept by B. B. Cannon, Conductor of a Party of Emigrating Cherokee Indians, put in his charge, at the Cherokee Agency East, by Genl. N. Smith, Superintendent of Cherokee removals, on the 13th day of October 1837.
Oct. 13th, 1837.
Sent the wagons to the Indian encampment and commenced loading, in the evening.
Oct. 14th, 1837.
Completed loading the wagons and crossed the Highwassee river at Calhoun, encamped, at 5 o’c. P.M.
Oct. 15th, 1837.
Marched the Party at 8 o”c. A.M. halted and encamped at Spring Creek, at 11 o’c A.M. where Genl. Smith mustered the Party, which consumed the remainder of the day, 5 miles to day.
Oct. 16th, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A.M., halted and encamped at Kelly’s ferry on Tennessee river, at 4 o’c. P.M. Issued corn & fodder, Corn meal & bacon, 14 miles to day.
Oct. 17th, 1837.
Commenced ferrying the Tennessee river at 8 o’c. A.M., having been detained until the sun dispelled the fog, every thing being in readiness to commence at day light, completed ferrying at 4 o’c. P.M. and reached little [p. 2] Richland creek at 8 o’c. P.M.., where the Party had been directed to halt and encamp, Issued corn & fodder, 7 miles to day.
Oct. 18th, 1837.
Marched at 7 ½ o’c. A.M., one of the provision wagons oversat, detained a half hour, no damage done, ascended Wallens ridge, (the ascent 2 miles) halted at Ragsdale’s at 1 ½ o’c. P.M., encamped and issued corn & fodder, corn-meal & bacon, 10 miles further to water, all wearied getting up the mountain, 5 miles today.
Oct. 19th, 1837.
Marched at 7 ½ o’c. A. M. descended the mountain, halted at 2 o’c. P.M., at Sequachee river near Mr. Springs, Issued corn & fodder, 11 ½ miles to day.
Oct. 20th, 1837.
Marched at 6 ½ o’c. A.M., ascended the Cumberland mountain, halted at Mr. Flemings, ¾ past 3 o’c. P.M., encamped and issued corn & fodder, corn meal & Bacon, 14 ½ miles to day.
Oct. 21st, 1837.
Marched at 7 ½ o’c. A.M., descended the mountain, halted at Collins river, 4 1/r o’c. P.M., encamped and issued corn & fodder, the Indians appear fatigued this evening. 13 miles today—road extremely rough.
Oct. 22nd, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A.M. passed through McMinnville, halted at Mr. Britts ½ past 12 o’c. M., encamped and issued corn & fodder, corn meal & Bacon, Sugar [p. 3] and coffee to the waggoners & Interpreters, no water for 12 miles ahead, procured a quantity of corn meal and bacon to day. ## 7 ½ miles to day.
Oct. 23rd, 1837.
Marched at 6 ½ o’c. A.M., Capt. Prigmore badly hurt by a wagon horse attempting to run away, halted at Stone river near Woodbury, Te. ½ past 4 o’c. P.M., encamped and issued corn & fodder, 20 miles to day.
Oct. 24th, 1837.
Marched at 7 ½ o’c. A. M., halted at Mr. Yearwoods, 4 o’c. P.M., rained last night and to day, Issued corn & fodder, corn meal and bacon, 15 miles to day.
Oct. 25th, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A.M., buried Andrew’s child at ½ past 9 o’c. A.M., passed through Murfreesborough, halted at Overall’s creek, 4 o’c. P.M., encamped and issued corn and fodder, 14 miles to day.
Oct. 26th, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A.M., passed through three turnpike Gates, halted at Mr. Harris, 3 o’c. P.M., encamped and issued corn & fodder, corn meal & bacon, 16 ½ miles to day.
Oct. 27th, 1837.
Marched at 7 ½ o’c. A.M., passed through two Turn-

## I would remark here that all supplies, both of forage and subsistence, were purchased, and Pikages, toll and ferriages contracted for on the way west by a contracting agent, and paid for on my request by Doct. Reynolds, the [continued at the bottom of page 4]

[p. 4] pike gates, and crossed the Cumberland river on the Nashville toll bridge, at Nashville, halted at Mr. Putnams ½ past 3 o’c. P.M., encamped and issued corn & fodder, Isaac Walker and [sic] emigrant belonging to the Party, overtook us. Mr. L. A. Kincannon, contracting agent, left us, and returned home, having, on the way, near McMinnville signified his intention, verbally, to do so, assigning as the reason the delicate situation of his health, 13 miles to day.
Oct. 28th, 1837.
Rested for the purpose of washing clothes, repairing wagons, and shoeing horses. Reese, Starr and others of the emigrants visited Genl. Jackson who was at Nashville, Issued corn & fodder, corn-meal and bacon, Assigned Mr. E. S. Curry to supply the place of Mr. Kincannon.
Oct. 29th, 1837.
Marched at 8 ½ o’c. A.M., halted at Long creek ½ past 2 o’c. P.M., encamped and issued corn & fodder, 13 ½ miles to day.
Oct. 30th, 1837.
Marched at 7 ½ o’c A.M., halted at Little red river ½ past 5 o’c. P.M., encamped and issued corn & fodder, corn-meal & Bacon, 18 ½ miles to day.
Oct. 31st, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A.M., halted at Graves, Ken. 3 o’c. P.M., Issued corn & fodder, 16 miles to day.

Disbursing Agent for the Party.

[p. 5]
Nov. 1st, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c., A.M., buried Ducks child, passed throug [sic] Hopkinsville, Ken, halted at Mr. Northerns ½ past 5 o’c. P.M. Encamped & issued corn & fodder, Flour and bacon, 19 miles to day.
Nov. 2nd, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A.M. and halted one mile in advance of Mr. Mitchersons, 3 o’o. P.M., encamped and issued corn and fodder.
Nov. 3rd, 1837.
David Timpson and Pheasant, emigrants belonging to the party, came up last night in the stage, having been heretofore enrolled, and mustered, marched at 8 o’c. A.M., passed thro’ Princeton, Ken., halted and encamped near Mr. Barnetts, at ½ past 4 o’c. P.M. Issued corn & fodder, Flour & bacon, 17 miles to day.
Nov. 4th, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A.M., halted and encamped at Threlkelds branch, 4 o’c, P.M., Issued corn & fodder, 15 miles to day.
Nov. 5th, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A.M., passed thro’ Salem, Ken., halted and encamped at another Mr. Threlkelds branch at 4 o’c. P.M., Issued corn & fodder, corn meal, a small quantity of flour, and bacon, 13 ½ miles to day.
Nov. 6th, 1837.
Marched at 7 o’c. A.M., arrived at Berry’s ferry (Golconda opposite on the Ohio river) 9 o’c. A.M., every thing in readiness to commence ferrying, but [p. 6]
Prevented on account of the extreme high winds and consequent roughness of the river, which continued the remainder of the day, encamped in the evening, Issued corn & fodder, 5 ½ miles to day.
Nov. 7th, 1837.
Commenced ferrying at ½ past 5 o’c. A.M., moved the Party as it crossed one mile out and encamped. Completed crossing 4 o’c. P.M., all safely, Issued corn & fodder, corn meal & bacon, 1 mile to day.
Nov. 8th, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A.M., Mr. Reese & myself remained behind, and buried a child of Seabolts, overtook the Party, halted and encamped at Big Bay creek, 4 o’c. P.M., Issued corn & fodder, (James Starr & wife, left this morning with two carry-alls to take care of, and bring on three of their children, who were too sick to travel—with instructions to overtake the Party as soon as possible without endangering the lives of their children.)—15 miles to day.
Nov. 9th, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c., A.M., halted and encamped at Cash creek, ½ past 4 o’c. P.M., Issued corn & fodder, corn meal & Bacon, 15 miles to day.
Nov. 10th, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A.M., were detained 2 hours on the way making a bridge across a small creek, halted at Cypress creek, 4 o’c., P.M., encamped and issued corn & fodder, & salt, 14 miles to day. [p. 7]
Nov. 11th, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c, A.M., passed thro’ Jonesboro’ Ill., halted and encamped at Clear creek, in the Mississippi river bottom, ½ past 3 o’c. P. M., Issued corn & fodder, corn meal & bacon—13 miles to day, issued sugar & coffee to the wagoners, & interpreters.
Nov. 12th, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A.M., arrived at Mississippi river, 10 o’c. A.M., Commenced ferrying, at 11 o’c. A. M., directed the party to move a short distance as they crossed the river, and encamp, Issued corn & fodder, Starr came up, the health of his children but little better, Richard Timberlake and George Ross, overtook us and enrolled, attached themselves to Starrs family.
Nov. 13th, 1837.
Continued ferrying from 7 o’c. until 10 o’c. A.M., when the wind arose and checked our progress, 3 o’c. P.M., resumed and made our trip, suspended at 5 o’c. P.M., Issued corn & fodder, corn meal & bacon, buried another of Duck’s children to day.
Nov. 14th, 1837.
Crossed the residue of the Party, Marched at 10 o’c. A. M., halted and encamped at Mr. William’s, Issued corn & fodder, sickness prevailing, 5 miles to day.

[tlagvga]

Post 2 of 3

Nov. 15th, 1837.
Rested for the purpose of washing &c., Issued corn and fodder, corn meal and bacon.
Nov. 16th, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A. M., left Reese, Starr and fam- [p. 8] ilies on account of sickness in their families, also James Taylor (Reese’s son in law) and family, Taylor himself being very sick, with instructions to overtake the Party, passed thro’ Jackson, Mo., halted & encamped at widow Roberts on the road via Farmington &c., Issued corn only, no fodder to be had, 17 miles to day.
Nov. 17th, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A. M., halted at White Water creek 4 o’c. P.M., Issued corn & fodder, corn meal and beef, 13 miles to day.
Nov. 18th, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A.M., halted and encamped at Mr. Morand’s 5 o’c. P.M., Issued corn & fodder, Flour & bacon, 16 miles to day.
Nov. 19th, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A.M., halted and encamped ½ past 4 o’c. P.M., at Wolf creek, Issued corn & fodder, 14 miles to day.
Nov. 20th, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A.M., passed thro’ Farmington, Mo., halted at St. Francis river, 4 o’c. P.M., encamped and issued corn & fodder, Flour & beef, 15 miles to day.
Nov. 21st, 1837.
A considerable number drunk last night obtained the liquor at Farmington yesterday, had to get out of bed about midnight to quell the disorder, a refusal by several to march this morning, alledging [sic] that they would wait for Starr & Reese to come up at that place, Marched at 8 o’c., A. M. in defiance of threats and attempts to intimidate, none remained behind, [p. 9] passed through Caledonia, halted at Mr. Jacksons, encamped and issued corn & fodder, beef and Bacon, mostly bacon, 14 miles to day.
Nov. 22nd 1837.
Marched 8 ½ o’c. A.M., pass through the lead mines (or Courtois diggings), halted at Scotts, 4 o’c. P.M., issued corn, fodder, and corn meal, 13 miles to day.
Nov. 23rd, 1837.
Rested for the purpose of repairing wagons, shoeing horses, washing &c., Starr, Reese, and Taylor came up, the health of their families in some degree improved, Issued corn & fodder, and beef, weather very cold.
Nov. 24th, 1837.
Marched at 8 ½ o’c. A.M., Considerable sickness prevailing, halted at Huzza creek, 4 o’c. P.M., encamped and issued corn & fodder, 12 miles to day.
Nov. 25th, 1837.
Doct. Townsend, officially advised a suspension of our march, in consequence of the severe indisposition of several families, for a time sufficient for the employment of such remedial agents as their respective cases might require. I accordingly directed the Party to remain in camp and make the best possible arrangement for the sick, In the evening issued corn & fodder, flour and beef.
Nov. 26th, 1837.
Remained in camp, sickness continuing and increasing, Issued corn & fodder, beef & corn meal. [p. 10]
Nov. 27th, 1837.
Remained in camp, sickness continuing to increase, Issued corn & fodder, Bacon & corn meal.
Nov. 28th, 1837.
Moved the Detachment two miles further to a Spring and School-house, obtained permission for as many of the sick to occupy the school-house as could do so, a much better situation for an encampment than on the creek, sickness increasing, Issued corn & fodder.
Nov. 29th, 1837.
Remained in camp, sickness still increasing, buried Corn Tassels child to day, Issued corn & fodder.
Nov. 30th, 1837.
Remained in camp, sickness continuing, Issued corn and fodder.
December 1st, 1837.
Remained in camp, sickness abating, Issued cor and fodder, Bacon & corn meal, Buried Oolanheta’s child to day.
Decr. 2nd, 1837.
Remained in camp, sickness abating, Issued corn & fodder, Beef & corn meal.
Decr. 3rd, 1837.
Remained in camp, sickness abating, Issued corn & fodder.
Decr. 4th, 1837.
Marched at 9 o’c. A.M., Buried George Killian, [p. 11] and left Mr. Wells to bury a waggoner, (black boy) who died this morning, scarcely room in the wagons for the sick, halted at Mr. Davis, 12 past 4 o.c. P.M., had to move down the creek a mile off the road, to get wood, Issued corn & fodder and corn meal, 11 miles to day.
Decr. 5th, 1837.
Marched 9 o’c. A.M., left two waggoners (black boys) at Mr. Davis sick, this morning, halted at the Merrimack river, ½ past 3 o’c. P.M., Encamped and issued corn and fodder, corn meal and beef, 10 miles to day.
Decr. 6th, 1837.
Marched at 9 o’c. A.M., passed Masseys Iron works, halted at Mr. Jones’ ½ past 3 o’c. P. M., encamped and issued corn and fodder, 12 miles to day.
Decr. 7th, 1837.
Marched at 8 ½ o’c., A.M., Reese’s team ran away, broke his wagon and Starrs carry-all, left him and family to get his wagon mended, at 17 miles, and to overtake if possible, halted at Mr. Bates son, 5 o’c., P.M., encamped and issued corn and fodder, corn-meal & bacon, 20 miles to day.
Decr. 8th, 1837.
Buried Nancy Bigbears Grand Child, marched at 9 o’c. A.M., halted at Piney a small river, ½ past 3 o’c. P.M., rained all day, encamped and issued corn only, no fodder to be had, several drunk, 11 miles to day. [p. 12]
December the 9th, 1837.
Marched at 9 o’c. A.M., Mayfields wagon broke down at about a mile left him to get it mended and overtake, halted at Waynesville, Mo. 4 o’c. P.M., encamped and issued corn & fodder, beef & corn meal, weather extremely cold, 12 ½ miles to day.
Decr. 10th, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A.M., halted at the Gasconade river 4 o’c. P.M., Issued corn & fodder. 14 miles to day.
Decr. 11th, 1837.
Marched at ½ past 8 o’c. A. M., halted at Sumner’s 4 o’c. P.M., encamped and issued corn & fodder. 15 miles to day.
Decr. 12th, 1837.
Marched at 9 o’c. A.M., halted one mile in advance of Mr. Parkes at a branch, 4 o’c. P. M., encamped and issued corn & fodder, corn meal, beef and a small quantity of bacon. 14 miles to day.
Decr. 13th, 1837.
Marched at 8 ½ o’c. A. M., halted at a branch near Mr. Eddington’s, 4 o’c. P.M., encamped and issued corn & fodder, Reese & Mayfield came up, 13 ½ miles today.
Decr. 14th, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A. M., halted at James fork of White river, near the road but which [p. 13] does not cross the road, 3 o’c. P. M., Mr. Wells taken sick, Issued corn meal, corn & fodder, 15 ½ miles to day.
Decr. 15th, 1837.
Joseph Starrs wife had a child last night. Marched at 8 ½ o’c. A. M., halted at Mr. Danforths, 1 ½ P. M., waggoners having horses shod until late at night, encamped & issued corn & fodder & beef. 10 ½ miles to day.
Decr. 16th, 1837.
Issued sugar & coffee to the waggoners & Interpreters this morning, Marched at 9 o’c. A. M., passed through Springfield Mo., halted at Mr. Clicks, 4 o’c. P. M., encamped and issued corn & fodder and corn-meal. 12 miles to day. (left Mr. Wells)
Decr. 17th, 1837.
Snowed last night, Buried Eleges wife and Chas. Timberlakes son (Smoker), Marched at 9 o’c. A. M., halted at Mr. Dyes 3 o’c P.M., extremely cold weather, sickness prevailing to a considerable extent, all very much fatigued, encamped and issued corn & fodder, & beef. 10 miles to day.
Decr. 18th, 1837.
Detained on account of sickness, Doct. Townsend sent back to Springfield for medicines, buried Dreadful Waters this evening, Issued corn and fodder & corn meal. [p. 14]
Decr. 19th, 1837.
Detained to day also on account of sickness, cold intense, Issued corn & fodder and beef.
Decr. 20th, 1837.
Marched at 8 ½ o’c. A. M., halted at Mr. Allens ½ past 3 o’c. P. M., encamped, and issued corn & fodder & corn meal. 15 miles to day.
Decr. 21st, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A. M., halted at Lockes on Flat creek, 12 past 3 o’c. P. M., encamped and issued corn & fodder, & beef. 15 miles to day.
Decr. 22nd, 1837.
Buried Goddards Grand child, Marched at 8 o’c. A. M., halted at McMurtrees, 3 o’c. P.M., encamped and issued corn & fodder and corn-meal. 15 miles to day.
Decr. 23rd, 1837.
Buried Rainfrogs daughter (Lucy Redstick’s child). Marched at 8 o’c. A. M. halted at Reddix, 3 o’c. P. M., encamped and issued corn & fodder & beef. 16 miles to day.
Decr. 24th, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A. M., halted at the X hollows, had to leave the road ¾ of a mile to get water, 3 o’c. P. M., Issued corn & fodder, Pork and corn meal. 15 miles to day.
Decr. 25th, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A. M., took the right hand [p. 15] road to Cane hill, at Fitzgeralds, halted a half mile in advance of Mr. Cunninghams at a branch, 3 o’c. P. M., Issued corn & fodder and salt Pork. 15 ½ miles to day.

[tlagvga]

Post 3 of 3

Decr. 26th, 1837.
Marched at 8 o’c. A.M., halted at James Coulters on Cane hill, Ark. ½ past 3 o’c P. M., encamped and issued corn meal, corn & fodder, 16 ½ miles to day.
Decr. 27th, 1837.
Buried Alsey Timberlake, Daughter of Chas Timberlake, Marched at 8 o’c. A. M., halted at Mr. Beans, in the Cherokee nation west, at ½ past 2 o’c. P. M., encamped and issued corn & fodder, Fresh pork & some beef. 12 miles to day.
Decr. 28th, 1837.
The Party refused to go further, but at the same time pledged themselves to remain together until the remuster was made by the proper officer, for whom I immediately sent an express to Fort Gibson, they alleged at the same time that the refusal was in consequence of the sickness now prevailing and that only.
Doct. Reynolds Disbursing agent for the Party dismissed the wagons from further service, Buried another child of Chas Timberlakes, and one which was born (untimely) [p. 16] yesterday of which no other account than this is taken, Jesse Half Breeds wife had a child last night, issued Pork, corn meal and flour, corn & fodder for to day.
Lieut. Van Horne arrived late this evening, having missed the express on the way.
Decr. 29th, 1837.
Remustered the Party, Issued a small quantity of corn meal & Pork yet on hand.
Decr. 30th, 1837.
Completed the Rolls of Remuster, turned over the Party to Lieut. Van Horne, and dismissed my assistants.
Respectfully submitted B. B. Cannon
Source: National Archives Record Group 75, Records of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, Letters Received, Cherokee Emigration, 1837, C-553, filed in Special Case 249
----------

My apologies to everyone, but this is about all this old mind can take today.

Vance, I will try to finish responding to you later today.

[vance hawkins]

waDO! :) Thank you very much.

You mentioned Cherokee and Shawnee in Missouri and I saw you also mentioned Wayland. Since my Wayland ancestors migrated to Arkansas in 1815 and some are found in IT as early as 1830, I am curious about those in Missouri in those times also. I've seen that there were Waylands in Missouri also but I am not sure how they relate to mine. I elieve those in Missouri CAN trace their Caucasian ancestry to the Germanna Colony (1715 or 20 or so settlements of Germans in western Virginia). There was a known Saponi Indian settlement on Gov. Spotswoods lands nearby. As with mos of my research, I just "think" but can not prove that's where my Waylands came from as well. I can say mine were near there, however, 4 or 5 counties away in the 1790s, ut that's as close as I can trace them at present to the germanna Colony.

You are right -- many groups migrated through Missouri on their way to Ok and Ks and some down to NE Tx as well.

I will certainly be looking through this in the next few days. I have to work 10 more days in a row before i get another day off, so don't worry if I don't post much -- I'll get to it as time permits. :).

donadagohv --

vance

ps -- I reread my last post -- I meant "Greer Co.", not "Greek Co." It might e possible I am living in denial -- always blame my keyboard -- gonna have to start thinkin' maybe a little bit of my spelling problems might be partly my fault . . .

[tlagvga]

Hello Vance,

Capt. William Dutch was a different person than Tachee the son of Attakullakulla, and people confused the two long ago. Capt. William Dutch d Mar 14, 1848, and was much younger than Tachee, son of Attakullakulla.

Before the Revolution kicked off 1776, and before winter 1775, Cherokee and Shawnee from the lower towns of Running Water, Nickajack, and Crowtown put together a force of about 300 warriors and attacked the French lead mines in SE Missouri. We are not sure but we think Peter Cornstalk led the war party. That would have been before whites murdered his father while in captivity at Point Pleasant West Virginia. Lead was in short supply over a broad area. Supposedly it was the Spanish of Florida who outfitted the warriors for the attack, but we have no evidence to support the premise. Logically that makes sense because the Spanish wanted Shawnee and Cherokee to move west to keep the French in check about that time, and to serve as a buffer between Spain and France in the area.

Successful in the attack, Cherokee and Shawnee did not move there immediately, but maintained a protective force, and mined lead until 1785. The Treaty of Hopewell changed the situation drastically, the Shawnee and Cherokee quickly populated the area with families who rejected the Treaty. It was at that time when Springfrog moved many of his combined Cherokee and Shawnee people into Arkansas. This essentially would be the first formal “voluntary removal” from traditional lands by Cherokee and Shawnee allied with them. Springfrog, who was aka “Dustu”, built the first documented village in Arkansas 1785. By 1795 Springfrog and his people were living in Texas. Springfrog’s group would later be nearly wiped out by smallpox 1806.

Chief Duwali of Hiwassee (NC) moved to Arkansas 1795, and set up first on the St. Francis River, staying there until the New Madrid earthquake 1811, after which he moved his people to the White River for a few months, then to the south bank of the Arkansas River and stayed until 1819 when he moved his people to Texas. In 1809, Talontuskee and Chief Takatoka settled in near the White River, which was where Duwali took his people after the New Madrid earthquake. Talontuskee become the principal Chief of the mixed villages of Cherokee and Shawnee peoples south of the Arkansas River. Simultaneously 1809 Walt Webber (son of Capt Will Webber) and another mixed band of Shawnee and Cherokee joined Talontuskee. Walt became a principal Chief 1824. Walt married the sister of Stand Watie. John Jolly, brother of Talontuskee moved another mixed band of Cherokee and Shawnee to the same area around 1817. He would become a principal Chief the following year 1818.

Prior to these migrations several mixed bands of Shawnee and Cherokee had already migrated to either Arkansas or Missouri. They were primarily people from what is known as the Overhills and Valley towns, which were totally destroyed by the Shelby Raids 1777 through 1779 who got tired of the constant running, and decided to find a quieter more peaceful existence. These people were some of the first to abandon their former ways of life and accepted the opportunity to assimilate into White society. It is my opinion these are the people of our origins for many of us were mixed bloods that could adapt. Our blood quantum often was less than ¼, and many of us were eyed of differing colors, as was our hair.

In 1837 Missouri, Kansas, and the Upper Missouri River basin suffered a deadly outbreak of smallpox, which is thought to have killed approximately 50% of then living Natives in the general area.

George Guess was located in Texas no later than 1817, and of that there cannot be much doubt. It is not possible that Nathaniel Gist was the father of George Guess. At the exact time George Guess was conceived, Nathaniel Gist was an Army Captain serving in the Byrd and Stephen regiment of Virginia Volunteers, which was on the march against the Cherokee Nation. Research can prove specific facts.

George Guess b. 1760 or 1761, or some people favor a date of 1764.

Wurtea Watts married 1st Robert Due (Chief Jolly) 1758 and had son Chief John Jolly (John Due) 1759.

Wurtea Watts married 2nd Bloody Fellow 1760 and had son Chief Tahlonteeskee (correct spelling) 1761.

Wurtea Watts married 3rd John Benge 1761 and had children.

Martin (Tail) b. 1761
Chief Robert b. 1763
Lucy b. 1768
Naquisi b. 1769
Tashliske b. 1770
Richard b. 1774

Tahlonteeskee was born either January or February 1761, and Martin Benge was born December 1761.

Wurtea Watts was not the mother of George Guess, or Sequoyah, or the man who wrote the Cherokee Syllabary. Nathaniel Gist was not the father of George Guess, or Sequoyah or the man who wrote the Cherokee Syllabary. The engagement of Nathaniel Gist as an Army Captain did not end until 1763. He immediately returned to Virginia and his white wife and family.

George Guess, aka Sequoyah was shot at, wounded, and died from the wounds suffered while crossing the Brazos River during the Relocation of Indigent peoples then living in the State of Texas. The record of George Guess’ death is still held by the State of Texas in the Archives of the Republic of Texas President Mirabeau B. Lamar, who succeeded President Sam Houston 1st President of the Republic of Texas.

Texas Militia (Rangers?) shot George Guess under orders of President Lamar on June 5, 1839. He died under guard June 9, 1839. After George Guess was killed his people went to Mexico where many other Cherokee-Shawnee found refuge.

When Texas became a republic in 1836, President Sam Houston sought peace with all Texas Indians. He enlisted the services of the friendly Delaware in protecting the frontier from hostile western tribes. In 1837 Delaware scouts accompanied several ranger corps as they patrolled the western line of settlement. Houston also worked to secure the land claims of the immigrant tribes, without success. Houston's successor to the presidency, Mirabeau B. Lamar, considered the immigrant tribes to be unauthorized intruders who threatened public safety and illegally occupied Texas land. He ordered them to be expelled from Texas. His removal policy culminated in the Cherokee War (1839), a conflict that involved all the immigrant bands of every tribe. Result of the Removal Order by President Lamar resulted in the final war fought for Freedom by the two tribes.

Out of respect for both peoples and their friends, I use the phrase,

The Great Allied Brotherhood of Cherokee-Shawnee, and Friends

The Shawnee first came to Missouri because of the Miami, and we have two pieces of information of the Chartier family (French) of which, indicates the Shawnee were in northeastern Missouri several times before 1650, and perhaps before 1600. The French were knowledgeable about the Osage, displaced Huron, and tribes forced to migrate by the Iroquois during the Beaver Wars. Unfortunately only a few people know much about the French concerning their fur trading activities before 1700, and getting hands on items of proof is terribly difficult. Everyone says the Spain was first to explore the Americas, but we are not so sure about that. Spain might have been first to allow news of travels by Spanish explorers, but we know of graves found and conclusively dated to 1520 along the White River in Canada not far from Mobert, in Ontario Province. The graves were found 1978 by students looking for Indian artifacts. They found an engraved ring with a man’s name on it, and a sword scabbard belonging to the same man. Both items were noted in his estate at time of probate in France 1537.

[vance hawkins]

That's interesting. The Tahchee/Dutch/Tatsi/Datsi I was talking about was the last Cherokee War Chief wo did live with or just to the North of Duwali in Tx for about 3 years I think it was. He was killed in the 1840s when his horse kicked him accidentally. I knew he couldn't be the same man in earlier records -- people don't lie that long! :) i didn't know anything about the earlier one, but the latter one I have read about some, the one called Dutch. Dutchess Creek was named after him. It flows into the Canadian River in Ok and that is where he died. It was originally "Dutch's Creek" but that evolved into the present "Dutchess Creek". his is per well-known Cherokee historian and author, Robert Conley.

It is hard for me to believe what you are saying about Sequoyah though. He is said to have had a son who was killed in Texas, I forget what his name was. The story of his trip to Mexico is well documented by The Worm in the Cherokee Phoenix in the 1840s. I'm like doubting Thomas, and I need to see and read the records of the things you speak of concerning Sequoyah to believe them.

I tend to think unorthodox claims must be accompanied with documentation that is undisputable.

There is one website that talks about "Spring Frog" a lot -- on Comanche Lodge, and that fella is full o' lots o' hot air. He's had more complaints of falsifying genealogy than just about anyone I know of. And this is complaints by well known genealogists. I really don't know much about Spring Frog, tho.

Muscle Shoals (NW Al near the bend in the Tennessee River) was another jumping off point where a Creek/Chickamauga community grew up. It was from this location that the story of Duwali killing some white families, and fleeing to SE Mo arose. His is often called the first perminant settlement (other than warring parties) west of the Mississippi. This was 1794 I think it was. What documentation do you have of Spring Frog in SE Mo earlier with a permanent settlement, and not just a raiding party, many of which wre there between the 1770s and the mid 1790s?

Please forgive me, but I learned on this forum (that I have taken to my Chickamauga project) that I can believe what I can document. I can speculate only about the things I can not document. I noticed when people talk of Cherokee history they tend to state this or that happened and never document it. I don't know why that is. I noticed here people try to document what they are saying. It is a lot easier for me to follow it that way. I might not always do it but I try to, to document what I say. If you can provide documentation for what you are talking about -- cite author, title and whatever else you have -- page, publisher/printer, et cetera, it can be followed more easily. Such comments require more documentation since they go against the grain of other well documented events.

I gotta go to work in 1/2 hour (midnight) so I can't finish this till later. I appreciate your posts. wado.

vance

[tlagvga]

Hello Vance,

The first problem anyone faces when attempting to document a person of the past is the name. In the case of Sequoyah, the word is meaningless in Cherokee, and every other Native Tongue we know even a snippet about. If we begin from here, we are looking for evidence to support the historical record, that is, the record we know about, have learned from the books. But, what if that learned from the books is not true?

Do you honestly believe a man such as Sequoyah, could die without people knowing about such an event? What about his estate? According to the record, Sequoyah was an accomplished silversmith by trade. What evidence do we have this is true? Supposedly he moved to Arkansas circa 1825 where he owned a blacksmith shop and salt works, but he was an accomplished silversmith? George served in the War of 1812 in Col. Morgan Jr. Cherokee Regiment. Has anyone ordered his Military Records for study? Some say he was wounded, which caused him to limp; some say he was otherwise crippled, but when did the Military accept crippled men for Service? If Sequoyah were born 1760 he would have been age 52 in 1812. He supposedly went to Washington D.C. 1828 for the treaty discussion concerning land in Oklahoma Territory. Did Sequoyah ever sign such a Treaty? If so, when did he become a Chief? If not, what was the purpose for going to Washington? How many people are aware that a Gist Family Archive is extant in the form of a Manuscript Collection dating from mid 1600s to very late 1800s, which does include a rather accurate accounting of the Gist family? Exactly which person by name Nathaniel Gist is subject of concern?

Nathaniel Gist b. 1707
Nathaniel Gist b. 1733
Nathaniel Gist b. 1736

By the time Sequoyah died he was Famous, or at least the scholars want us to believe he was Famous.

I cited source of information for the death of the man who put the Cherokee Syllabary to paper using pen and ink. I cannot produce the document, or even a scan of it for anyone since we do not possess it. But anyone going looking for the grave of Sequoyah will not find it, because it does not exist. There never was a man named Sequoyah, only the man who was presented, as Sequoyah existed.

[vance hawkins]

Tlagvga said --

George Guess was located in Texas no later than 1817, and of that there cannot be much doubt. It is not possible that Nathaniel Gist was the father of George Guess. At the exact time George Guess was conceived, Nathaniel Gist was an Army Captain serving in the Byrd and Stephen regiment of Virginia Volunteers, which was on the march against the Cherokee Nation. Research can prove specific facts.

reply --

Emigration rolls (direct quote). Most researchers say he didn't leave immediately for Arkansas. What documentation do oyu have that he was in Arkansas earlier?

page 3

# 126
date -- April 13, 1817, Too-cha-lar, Chief; # in party -- 12; residence -- Willstown

page 7
# 316
date -- may 23, 1818; George Gess: # in party -- 11; residence -- Willstown.

================

You said Nathaniel Gist was not in E Tn at the time of sequoyah's conception and that research could show that. my research has shown the following (please read the whole article, I have just taken parts relating to where Nathaniel was in 1760-1761 -- I haev several references, but this has it in a concise format, covering the matter in question.

excerpts taken from Chronicles of Oklahoma; Volume 15, No. 1
March, 1937;
THE FATHER OF SEQUOYAH: NATHANIEL GIST by
Samuel C. Williams

http://digital.library.okstate.edu/Chronicles/v015/v015p003.html--

Young Gist was evidently a visitor, for trade purposes, to the Overhill Cherokees as early as 1753. Manifestly, he was the son

Page 4

referred to by Christopher Gist in the following excerpt from his Journal of 1753, kept while on a tour to the Ohio with Major George Washington: "A messenger came with letters from my son who has just returned from his people at the Cherokees."1

In 1754, at the age of 20, Nathaniel Gist was among the Overhill Cherokees.

. . .

In the Dictionary of American Biography (Vol. VII), in the sketch of Christopher Gist by W. J. Ghent, the statement is made that "in 1756, he [Christopher Gist] went to the Cherokee country in East Tennessee in the vain effort to enlist Indians for service, and for a time he was an Indian agent in that locality."

. . .

Summers, in his History of Southwest Virginia, gives a glimpse of Nathaniel Gist and Daniel Boone in 1760: "About the same time Daniel Boone, accompanied by several hunters, visited the Holston and camped the first night in what is now known as Taylor's valley. On the succeeding day they hunted down the South Fork of Holston and traveled thence to what was thereafter known as Wolf Hill (Abingdon). Boone and his companion * * * disagreed and separated, Boone taking the Indian trail to the Long Island, and Nathaniel Gist, his companion, following the Indian trail to Cumberland Gap."

Relying, in part, upon this datum, Albert V. Goodpasture, a thorough investigator and most competent historian, in his "Paternity of Sequoyah,"9 advances the contention that, after this hunt-


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

8June 17, 1758. Kimball (ed.) Correspondence of Wm. Pitt, II, 279.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

9Chronicles of Oklahoma, I, 12. et seq.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 9

ing trip, Gist went to the Cherokee towns on the Little Tennessee river and there formed a temporary alliance with a Cherokee maiden in 1760-61, the result of which was the birth of the great Sequoyah.

. . .

Goodpasture reinforces the argument by citing the facts that in Gist's petition to the legislature of Virginia asking confirmation of his title to Long Island of Holston from the Cherokees he represented that he had obtained it in 1761, thus evidencing his presence among the Indians in that year.

end of quote --

question -- what research documents do you have to disprove what is stated above?

thanks

Vance

[vance hawkins]

you said --

Do you honestly believe a man such as Sequoyah, could die without people knowing about such an event? What about his estate?

reply --

I have visited sequoyah's log cabin outside of Sallisaw -- it contained one room only. Out front was a large cauldron for processing salt He had no estate to speak of.

His death is well documented. The Worm wrote about it at it was published at the time of his death.

you said --

Exactly which person by name Nathaniel Gist is subject of concern?

Nathaniel Gist b. 1707
Nathaniel Gist b. 1733
Nathaniel Gist b. 1736

He was the Nathaniel who was the son of Christopher, the man who saved George Washington's life in the French and Indian war. Nathaniel at first allied himself with dragging Canoe until 1777 in the Revolutionary war -- he was a Tory for 2 years. When he switched sides, many men wanted to hang him on the spot.

Here is a pretty good article about him --

http://unitedkeetoowahband.org/sequoyah.htm

you said --

I cannot produce the document, or even a scan of it for anyone since we do not possess it. But anyone going looking for the grave of Sequoyah will not find it, because it does not exist.

reply --

from

Chronicles of Oklahoma
Volume 8, No. 2
June, 1930
THE LIFE AND WORK OF SEQUOYAH
By John B. Davis, B. S., M. A.

http://digital.library.okstate.edu/Chronicles/v008/v008p149.html

The following letter gives the most circumstantial account of the death of Sequoyah:

59Warren's Trading House, Red River,
April 21st, 1845.
"We, the undersigned Cherokees, direct from the Spanish Dominions, do hereby certify that George Guess of the Cherokee Nation, Arkansas,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

56Letters of Sept. 12, and Nov. 23, 1844, from Agent Butler to Commissioner of Indian Affairs.

57Letter of Commissioner of Indian Affairs to Agent Butler, Jan. 17, 1845.

58Letter of Oo-no-leh to Agent Butler, May 15, 1845.

59Starr: Early History of the Cherokees, p. 68.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

departed this life in the town of San-fernando in the month of August, 1843, and his son Chusaleta is at this time on the Brasos River, Texas, about thirty miles above the falls, and he intends returning home this fall.
"Given under our hands the day and date written.
his
STANDING X ROCK
mark
his
STANDING X BOWLES
mark
his
WATCH X JUSTICE
mark
WITNESSES
Daniel G. Watson
Jesse Chisholm."

end of direct quote --

so records of his death were well known and documented by many, including the half-Cherokee for whom the Chisolm trail was named, a son of Duwali, and others.

[tlagvga]

Hello Vance,

Thank you for a very detailed response. We too ask for documentation when we do not have access to specific information; however, the sources cited do not address primarily the issue of time frame regarding Wurtea being Sequoyah’s mother if in fact fathered by Nathaniel Gist. That time frame is extremely narrow, so narrow to be one month off is adequate to change the assertion of Mooney and others considerably.

Christopher Gist, immigrant to Maryland d. 1690 Baltimore Maryland. Will proved March 10, 1690.

Had one son

Richard b. 1684
M: 7 Dec 1704
Zipporah Murray b. 1684

They had five sons

**Christopher b. 1705
Nathaniel b. 1707
William b. 1711
Thomas b. 1709
John b.? d. 1778

**Christopher
m:
Sarah Howard

Sons
Richard b. 2 Sep 1729 Killed at battle of Kings Mountain 1780
**Nathaniel b. 15 Oct 1733
Thomas b. 1735 d. 1786

**This Christopher explored Ohio and part of Kentucky for the Ohio Company in 1750, and was the guide and companion of Washington on his journey to Lake Erie in 1753. With his sons Nathaniel and Thomas, he took part, as guide and scout, in Braddock's expedition, and was present on the fatal field of battle, where those officers' troops were cut to pieces. On October 1, 1755, Christopher Gist was commissioned Lieutenant in the Virginia forces (Va. Mag., i. 285), and in 1756 he was captain of a company of scouts, which he raised for service on the frontier. The same year he went to the Carolinas to enlist Cherokee Indians for the English service, and for a time he served as Indian Agent. He died in the summer of 1759 of smallpox, in South Carolina or Georgia.

This Christopher is the only son of Christopher Gist with sons named Nathaniel & Thomas.

This so we are on the same page of history

By doing this we identify specific time frames for Nathaniel Gist.

In late 1759 Governor Lyttelton negotiated a peace treaty with the Cherokee, and word was sent to then Colonel Waddell in January 1760 while on the march that his assistance was not needed, and a treaty of peace was negotiated with the Cherokees. At this specific time Nathaniel was with Colonel Hugh Waddell.

On February 1, 1760, while a large party (including the family of Patrick Calhoun), numbering in all about one hundred and fifty persons, were removing from the Long Cane settlement to Augusta, they were suddenly attacked by a hundred mounted Cherokees, who slaughtered about fifty of them. After the massacre, many of the children were found helplessly wandering in the woods. One man alone carried to Augusta no less than nine of the pitiful innocents, some horribly mutilated with the tomahawk, others scalped, and all yet alive. The Young Warrior of Estatoe (Silouee) led the attack with Round O, Great Eagle (Tiftoe) and other Cherokee & Shawnee Chiefs. The same army of warriors continued to attack Fort Prince George, but was repeatedly driven away.

Governor Bull replaced Governor Lyttelton, and he decided to go all out and asked for help. On April 1, 1760 General Montgomery arrived at Charleston with a force of 1200 men and instructions to attack. The result was inconsequential; Montgomery lost an estimated one hundred men, while the Indians lost significantly less. Unable to care for the wounded and lacking a secure method of redeployment, Montgomery withdrew his forces. In so doing that he acknowledged defeat, and he was forced to abandon his goal, relieving the garrison at Fort Loudon. The situation remained unchanged with Indians controlling the area. On May 1, 1761 Colonel Waddell with a force of 500 Volunteers including Lieutenant Nathaniel Gist marched against the Cherokee. On July 7, 1761, Colonel James Grant, detached from the main army in command of a force of twenty-six hundred men, took up his march from Fort Prince George. They attacked on July 10th two miles south of the spot where Montgomery was engaged the year before. Grant's army, after a battle lasting several hours, drove off the Indians. The army then destroyed fifteen towns of the Middle Settlements; and then went to Fort Prince George. Peace was agreed upon September 1761. Colonel Waddell with his force of five hundred North Carolinians had acted in concert with Colonel William Byrd then commanding the Virginia detachment. The combined forces camped at Captain Samuel Stalnaker's place on the Middle Fork of the Holston. There the combined forces of both Stephen and Waddell built Fort Robinson, which resulted in another treaty of peace November 1761.

According to Chronicles of Oklahoma, Young Nathaniel Gist was present among the Cherokee 1753 at age 20 odd years sent by his father to trade with the Cherokee.

Goodpasture asserted that young Gist was there 1760 after arguing with Daniel Boone while detached from Waddell for the purpose of hunting, and after the argument Gist went to the Cherokee towns on the Little Tennessee and formed temporary alliance with a Cherokee maiden in 1760-61, the result of which was the birth of the great Sequoyah.

Is it possible for a Captain assigned to a commander trying to annihilate the Cherokees to form a temporary alliance with a young Indian maiden 1760-1761?

Wurtea and Robert Due had son Chief John Jolly Due 1759

Wurtea and Bloody Fellow had son Chief Tahlonteeskee 1761

This leaves only 1 year 1760 for the birth of Sequoyah if fathered by Nathaniel Gist.

This documents the time frame of Nathaniel Gist to November 1761.

The problem with all this is the details of several sources do not match. Richard Pearis was supposedly involved somehow but this is of no consequence and had nothing to do with the events that transpired during the French Indian Wars.

The hunting trip when Gist and Boone argued could only have occurred in a very narrow time frame. That frame January 1760 to February 1760. Both men were under command of Waddell, and would have been the one time Waddell would have allowed two key men to go take an “extended hunting trip,” omitted from the verification by Goodpasture. At best there was only a “tentative peace” between January 1760 and February 1760, a very short-lived tentative peace. If the Oklahoma Chronicles are correct, the extant records in the states of Virginia, North Carolina, and South Carolina are wrong concerning specific dates. Governor Robert Dinwiddie of Virginia commissioned Nathaniel Gist a Captain in 1757, and he was paid accordingly for his services in 1757, 1758 1759, 1760, and 1761.

But there are other sources with explicit information of a different nature; the following quote is from The Conquest of the Old Southwest by Archibald Henderson.

"In the late autumn of 1761, Daniel Boone and Nathaniel Gist, the son of Washington's famous guide, who were both serving under Waddell, temporarily detached themselves from his command and led a small party on a "long hunt" in the Valley of the Holston, While encamping near the site of Black's Fort, subsequently built, they were violently assailed by a pack of fierce wolves which they had considerable difficulty in beating off; and from this incident the locality became known as Wolf Hills (now Abingdon, Virginia)."

As you can see references are references, but again confirming Gist was with Waddell, and not with an Indian maiden. If in fact, George Guess’s father were a white man, a more likely candidate would be Henry Timberlake. Moreover, Timberlake was a man held in high esteem by the Overhills people, and made the trip to England with two of Washington’s favorite Indians, The Mankiller of Tomatly (Outacite), Ostenaco and the third, Standing Turkey 1762. Finally, Henry Timberlake is known without doubt to have been in contact with the Overhills people 1762, and again 1764 and in a time frame much more suitable for trysts with an Indian Maiden.

Sources, Chronicles of Oklahoma, Archives of North and South Carolina, Military Service records of Virginia, and Militia commissions ordered by the British Crown.

If both of us keep an open mind, perhaps we can unlock the mystery so long hidden behind the mask of ignorance and missing information. Please bear with me.

We already know when Ostenaco returned from England with Timberlake 1762 they learned he had a new son, and Ostenaco had a new grandson. The child was born to Henry Timberlake, and Ostenaco’s daughter, Sakinney. Ostenaco talked about his new “favorite grandson” with anyone and everyone who would listen. Everyone knows that Ostenaco died in the home of Richard Timberlake at Hiwassee 1780. The question is how many grandsons did Ostenaco have? Ostenaco had no sons, and one daughter.

We have also been told Sequoyah was raised by his mother; however, that does not wash if she was honestly a Cherokee maiden. In the case of children without a father, an Uncle or Brother is duty bound to raise the child. In the case of neither, the father of the woman is duty bound to rear the child. And if Wurtea was the mother, Sequoyah had at least two half-brothers, and at least one stepfather before John Benge took her to wife.

As an exercise try writing the word Sequiha in cursive.

Try writing the word Soguili several times.

Ok, now try Sikwayi.

Last try writing the word Secoya.

Historically, when is the first recorded known reference to Sequoyah?

If you can answer the last question, we could possibly solve the Sequoyah riddle. We have not been able to locate proof of the first known usage of the word representing the man who put Cherokee to paper, and we have been looking for more than 40 years.

Thank you,

[Bill Childs]

Tla gv ga,
This discussion, while very interesting in an historical context, has little to do with Eastern Siouan genealogy. I would like to suggest that you continue your discussion with Vance by Email.
Bill

[Dreaminghawk]

Very interesting discussion.......... just an aside here....... The Timberlake family in 1700s Granville co, NC are associated with the same Sneede, Tapp, Gooch, Allen, Lunsford, Meadows, et al group which the proponderence of circumstantial evidence would say were mixed saponi.

[Bill Childs]

DreamingHawk,
Quite true, as far as that goes.
Tla Gv Ga was asked for his sources and he cited none that could be cross-checked. Claims, without sources.

Tla Gv Ga,
With all due respect, take your discussion to the "Share History Research" section of the Forum and cite specific documentation to support your heretofore assertions. Yes, I'm aware that some of what you've said here can be documented but the genealogy you have cited is not.
I'm also aware that this is the genealogy section of this Eastern Sioux Forum and is not dedicated to exploring TlaLaGi history.
Bill

[tlagvga]

Hello Bill,

Sorry, but whenever I click on Home, the main pages says nothing about, Geneaology Section, Eastern Sioux Forum.

If possible, please move this thread to wherever you deem appropriate.

Thank you,

[Bill Childs]

The Sappony/Saponi are the Eastern Sioux.
Click on 'Saponitown Forum' (not a button - it's a 'clickable' title.)
Scroll down to 'Share Historical Reseach" and click on that.

[tlagvga]

Hello Bill,

Thank you,

[tlagvga]

Everyone,

My apologies to everyone for intruding with subject mater that does not pertain to Sioux research. Consequently this will be my last post, but will read all responses.

Thank you Bill!

To Vance,

If after reading this you are interested in continuation, post so on your Cherokee forum on Yahoo. We are a Yahoo member, and working there is no problem.
-----------------------------------

Hello Vance,

After reading your posts to glean more information on sources you have quoted, it is now most evident your post of 07-03-2005 01:46 PM claims Toochalar is George Guess or the Sequoyah. In that post you replied to an earlier post by me, where I wrote,
+++++++

Tlagvga wrote: “George Guess was located in Texas no later than 1817, and of that there cannot be much doubt. It is not possible that Nathaniel Gist was the father of George Guess. At the exact time George Guess was conceived, Nathaniel Gist was an Army Captain serving in the Byrd and Stephen regiment of Virginia Volunteers, which was on the march against the Cherokee Nation. Research can prove specific facts.”
+++++++

Vance replied: “page 3
# 126
date -- April 13, 1817, Too-cha-lar, Chief; # in party -- 12; residence -- Willstown

page 7
# 316
date -- may 23, 1818; George Gess: # in party -- 11; residence -- Willstown.”
----------------

If that is correct, and we are not saying we doubt your assertions apparently you are not aware of the fact in the 1817 Treaty of the Cherokee, that he, Toochalar is specifically identified as an Arkansas Cherokee Chief, and his place is rather prominent in that, his signature is first under the Arkansas section as signatory. But, we do find it somewhat contradictory that you claim he was living in Willstown at that time, which means one of two things, confusion about where Sequoyah was, or someone has made serious mistakes in documentation of who Sequoyah the person, was, and his place in tribal society of the Cherokee concerning rank and file order. Be sure to look at the Rank of the Chiefs since beginning at the Treaty of Tellico, the Chiefs ranking order was also their order of where signatures were placed. Treaty of Cherokee Agency July 8, 1817, just two months after the information that you cited, link follows,

http://dads.ala.nu/treaty9.htm

Similarly, Springfrog also was an Arkansas signatory for the same Treaty in that, he had returned to Arkansas after his people were nearly totally wiped out 1806 by smallpox.

You will also learn Toochalar signed many treaties, of which we believe the first signed by him was the Treaty of Tellico, October 25, 1805. At that time, Toochalar was living in Arkansas, and so far as we know he died before Removal began 1828. His name is not included on subsequent treaties that we have found.

George Guess & Toochalar were not one and the same person.

You asked what documentation we can provide; however, we never asked for any info until you cited specific facts-which are illogical, or just plain wrong. We have known for many years the so-called Historical Experts that most everyone uses were often driven by money, bribes, to falsify or feint their documentation. One of the worst was Mooney, and don’t forget where Mooney lived. George Guess, or whomever the person was that put Cherokee to paper never signed a Treaty, and the signature on the 1828 Treaty, as George Guess, was not that person.

[vance hawkins]

Toochelar is not Sequoyah -- they are clearly 2 men who signed the emigration rolls months apart -- he was Chief of Sequoyah's home town. As I said he was a prominent Chief in Arkansas. In the emigration rolls # 167 is Springfrog's name dated may 20, 1818, also from Willstown. Right after him are 2 McLmore's, John Sr & Jr. By Toochelar's name is the word "Chief", a title not beside Spring frog's name.

Those dates are straight out of the Cherokee emigration rolls as transcribed by Jack D. Baker., published by Baker Pub Co, po box 20951, Ok C, Ok 73256, (c) 1977.

The dates are correct. Please feel free to post all this on the yahoo group I spoke of.

Bill, per your request this is my last post on this topic here.

vance

[rockhound]

Originally posted by tlagvga
Hello Vance,

In the course of our research we proved several surnames long associated with Shawnee and Cherokee as living in Missouri and Eastern Kansas. This is especially true prior to the Civil War circa 1850. Dominate names, Welch, Greenwood, White Carnes, Watts, Briggs, Gilliam, Lowery, Boone, McLemore, and Wayland. Check the 1850 Missouri Census for these names and look for origin state. While doing so, you will also notice Missouri births are common before statehood among those particular names. It is hard to prove which tribe people settling in Missouri and Kansas actually belonged to for many of the people traveled in mixed groups representing several tribes, and a lot of them the lesser known tribes that were “adopted” Shawnee, Cherokee, Creek and Chickasaw. It appears Missouri become home for a large group of Chickasaw after Kentucky freed up their lands in Western Kentucky 1817-1818.

We can prepare a list of known Safe Houses, the locations, and dates they were active, which we would be willing to share. Several were located along the Trail of Tears. The mapping everyone uses for the Trail in Missouri is more or less worthless. There was no set single trail once leaving the Illinois border. In the fall of 1828 conditions in Missouri were very dry, and people had to travel where there was adequate water. That changed drastically in December when the Mississippi was moving so much ice many people were stranded for several weeks waiting to cross the River because of Ice. The Indians learned the trail would pass through Missouri not long after the Removal Order passed Congress because of scouting reports, and existing roads. Missouri circa 1838 had very few trees, with significant prairie land north of the Ozark Mountains to the Missouri River.

Missouri become a state in 1821 and hundreds of thousands of acres were up for sale to anyone in 160-acre tracts. It seemed nobody paid much attention to neighbors and farm labor was in short supply, a win-win situation for everyone. To plot the basic Trail in Missouri, you can use any of the published maps; however, there was no set trail, and people had to travel near water when possible. Follow the Trail to Pulaski County in Missouri, from there the Trail deviated in several places. On December 9, 1838 one group was refused a place to camp near Waynesville in Pulaski County. If it were not for Colonel Swink and his wife who allowed them to camp on their property, most of them would have died. They were cold, hungry, and afoot because they ate their animals, and were without any blankets or warm clothing. The Swink family gave them enough walking beef, corn, and other provisions to finish the trip. Many people swore Colonel Swink went to the nearby fort at Rolla Missouri with two neighbors, and at gunpoint demanded enough blankets to keep the people from freezing to death. Colonel Swink was a retired veteran; his family stated he resigned his commission because of the Indian Removal act, and openly stated if he ever saw Andrew Jackson again he would shoot him on sight. We have no documentation concerning the events at Waynesville Missouri December 9, 1838, but we believe them to be true. Very few people know the Removal began much earlier than 1838. We have documented the first known group to travel the Trail through Missouri took place 1837, and was under the command of conductor, B.B. Cannon escorting 365 persons.

This may not be the place for this; however, we think these types of documentaries are needed by many researchers; therefore, a few comments. Without this type of reference material people simply will never understand the terrible conditions the people who made these trips endured. Why in the world would anyone plan a departure for a journey known to take several months during the month of October? We know why, and we fully understand why. Such planning was nothing less than calculated and planned genocide a people specifically designed to reduce their numbers for easier management once they arrived at destination.

What follows in the next three posts is the Chronological Record submitted by B. B. Cannon, Condudtor.

-----------------------------------------

I wanted to add to this. My family's property is bisected by the Old Wire Road (telegraph wire ran along it, the Springfield to St. Louis Road) in Pulaski County, MO, just west of Waynesville. There was a stagecoach stop there during the Civil War, but I don't think it was there in 1837.

It has been my family tradition that we were of Cherokee descent. Supposedly the Riddle's (now known to not be Cherokee) came on the Trail of Tears, through Steelville and down what later became the Old Wire Road through Waynesville, where they somehow were able to settle.

In speaking with Mr. Mooney of Tahlequah, my mom was told that the Riddles were associated with Doublehead's group. The only connection I have seen is a Riddle Benge...any info on him?

I do have Cherokee blood, but I don't believe it came from the Riddle side. Most likely the Bench side (via Lucinda Bench, who married Andrew Jackson Riddle). I could never understand how a Cherokee boy could be named Andrew Jackson in 1843...but who knows.

Also, there is a known Shawnee settlement that is located about 5 minutes from my house, where the Bourbeouse River runs into the Meramec River near Moselle, MO. I have been meaning to visit it in the spring or fall (too overgrown in summer). This settlement was known as Shawneetown and is said to have been largest in the late 1790's. Supposedly the Spanish encouraged the Shawnee to move here in order to keep the Osage in check. The Osage, by the way, supposedly lived near what is now my town, Union, MO. The Osage are said to have been over 6 ft. tall, handsome, and fierce.

[BlondeyeLaurie]

Originally posted by vance hawkins
Tlagvga --

there is a book --

Dianna Everett, The Texas Cherokees: A People between Two Fires, 1819-1840 (Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1990).

=========

I have read it alhto I don't have a copy. I got it through library loan. I recall it mentioning government reports of a count of just how many Indians remained East of the Mississippi -- the government kept these records. They seem to have ignored mixed-blood communities which still existed. The number was very low, just a handful. Since I don't have the book any more all I can say is I recall reading it in that book.

It reminded me of them patting themselves on the back for finally succeeding in achieving the "final solution" to the "Indian problem".

Vance


Hello Vance (and everyone who has been a part of this thread)...this topic really did catch my eye becuase my husband's line paternally descends from the Troxell's you made mention of...we too have read about the Falls massacre and the Cornblossom info...we even took a trip to see her "grave" near Whitley, KY...we have also been to Dan Troxell's site and read much of what he wrote but as of this writing, we have not heard anything further from him in many months....as with any minimally documented family history...alot of what is "out there" is in fact supposition so who is to say if or what occurred at the aforementioned locale. I know that alot of ppl have vigorously tried to make their ancestral connection to the Native American families and irreguardless, some ppl will embrace a NOTION of it wholeheartedly without pause. The truth of it is that we are ALL intrigued by family lore and tales and liek another member said: "We know what we know what we know." I read a little "ditty" once whereby an elder woman encountered a younger fellow and he told her he was "part Indian"...and she pointed to him and asked: which part of you is Indian son?...your toes? hands? legs? or arms?....she then told him that there is no such thing as being "part Indian"...that the Indian is innately in your HEART and that anyone with Native American heritage should embrace that lineage and know that they ARE Indian and feel it from within their heart. I know I didn't fully detail the ditty but the basic premise is the same and is worth noting I feel. Some stories or family "mysteries" or "brick walls may never be fully documentally proven and that is fine too. It is all very interesting to me irreguardless....the more we read, the more we research, the more learn and come to know ourselves via our past kinfolk. That said...no arguments here....thank you for sharing what you have learned and believe and allow us to all ponder...here are a few links I had handy that touch on some of the Falls massacre and Cornblossom data we "bumped" into when we first started our Troxell researching:

http://home.fuse.net/genealogy/cornblossom.html

http://www.cville.com/members/ridenour/attak1.htm

http://www.geocities.com/genealogydavis/jakecorn.html

http://victorian.fortunecity.com/rothko/420/aniyuntikwalaski/yahoo.html

http://www.geocities.com/jillserenamatthews/doubleheadlinks.html

http://www.cherokeebyblood.com/cherdates.htm

I hope some of the above links are interesting at the least...I have more but don't wish to overpost and overshadow the topic. *grin* Blessings to all in your endeavors~~~~Laurie

[vance hawkins]

BlondeyeLaurie,

I have written to every website there is conserning the Troxell's, and asked them what was the source of their material -- not a single site could provide it. All went back to saying they had copied it off of Dan Troxell's website. He was the ultimate source for ALL of it. I suggest you try writing all those website that you looked up and ask them where they found the source for their material. I've already done it, and I did it 3 or 4 years ago.

I never said they were not mixed blood Indian -- Dan himself said his ancestor is part-Delaware. Famous Cherokee genealogists say there was no Cornblossom, and laugh at the notion saying "corn doesn't have a blossom" -- and that it just isn't a name a Cherokee would ever have.

I have researched this thouroughly and would love for the story to be true -- but there is no evidence for it other that the family story of one man. Where did Dan Troxell get it? There was a Thomas Troxell in N Tn who wrote a series of short stories called "Legion of the Lost Mine" and in the foreward says "some of the persons in the book are fictitious." That is where the stories came from.

I talked to a historian from McCreary Co., Ky who said he researched this tale -- probabluy more than any man alive -- and he found no evidence at all for it. His ancestors lived there for a long time and he was a descendant of the Slaven family mentioned in some of those tales. He wrote a book on the topic called "SouthFork Country" (his name is Samuel D. Perry) and I got a copy from him which he signed for me -- everyone interested in this topic should read it.

It is very possible that an early day Troxel married an Indian -- it just wasn't any daughter of Doublehead -- that's fiction.

Doublehead has known descendants today, some are enrolled Cherokee and some Chickasaw (he had a daughter that married a well known Chickasaw Chief George Colbert). They don't claim any Troxell heritage either and don't believe those stories. Bird Doublehead, Doublehead's son, walked the "Trail of Tears". There is no record from these folks of a "Cornblossom" . . .

I have spent so much time on research of this one topic -- probably over 100 hours -- seeking, hoping, one source would eventually pop up -- and never have found anyone with a document that would support these claims altho many claimed the had something. If you ask them to get specific they can't. I started out trying to provide proof of these stories as I saw a few ties to my family -- but I was dissapointed, and I will not spread rumors.

There is a grave injustice in those stories to the Gregory family. Since there is no evidence of a massacre -- archaeologists have searched and say there are no bones, and there is no evidence of lead shot in the ground at the site (I've talked to the archaeologist hird by Daniel Boone National Forest who works in S Ky), as would be the case if an actual massacre had taken place there. I have heard through Mr Perry that some Gregory's still live there and here is this man saying their ancestor massacred over 100 children, something he most likely never did. If you were a Gregory, how would you feel about that? I have also talked to several Cherokee historians ahd they agree with Mr Perry -- no massacre ever took place.

If you have any evidence at all for a massacre, of of the existence of Cornblossom or Tuckahoe (also "Tuckaho" is NOT a Cherokee word), please bring it forth. I let people know "this is a family story and we can't prove it" and make that VERY CLEAR when I say things, tales in my families history. My family stories are every bit as interesting as Dan's are, but nobody knows much about them. Why? Because I don't have beaucoup websites proclaiming these family tales as tho they are known facts.

As for what part of me is Indian, a hand or a foot, et cetera -- (I've been told this tale 100 times and I am tired of hearing it over and over) -- well, it just doesn't work that way, I am sorry. A little coffee flavors the entire cup of water, yet the coffee without the water wouldn't be very good either. They say mixed breed dogs make the best pets, and mixed blood people can be the best as well. I am very proud to say I am MIXED-blood. When dad was asked he'd say "Oh, I have a little Indian blood, not much (he was about 1/4th)."

That's not a bad way to behave. All those websites might have cought the attention of Doublehead's known descendants and maybe they don't care for it -- maybe that's why Dan is layin' low and not as talkative as he once was a few years back . . .

vance

[BlondeyeLaurie]

Hello Vance....thank you ( I think?) for your reply to my post...I am admittedly a bit miffed at your candor with me personally but perhaps you reaction was based on your own negative experinces with the whole "Cornblosson saga"? It was NEVER my intention to incite anger or hostility over the topic...it simply caught MY eye being as my husband's father is related to the Troxell line as such: his father Gary's grandma was Alice Troxell...daughter of William Peter Troxel....son of David Troxell...son of George Washington Troxell....son of "War Chief" Peter Troxell....son of "Big Jake" Troxell....and according to Dan Troxell....this mysterious and perhaps fictional Princess Cornblossom. That said...we too have TRIED locating data and info and factual reasoning for this ancestry as well...we have emailed Dan and tried to seek answers and like I mentioned he is in fact either "laying low" or avoiding or just on one of his "sebbaticals". We have NOT been afforded "proof" either and if YOU personally already wrote to the site owners and inquired about the validity of such claims and recieved a null or void reply....gee, I'll pass on that opportunity thanks. I am not personally versed enough in the Cherokee given name customs so I just cannot responde to the Cornblossom name being meritously or NOT in sync with their heritage. If in fact, as it appears that these "stories" are untrue....it is a shame and a sham both...I can recognize that. We have made numerous trips ourselves to McCreary county and have spoken at length with the folks at the McCreary County Historical Preservation Society....great folks...and have visited some of the numerous cemeteries there for my husband's ancestors....they do a fine job of preserving their burial history and recording the internments. If the Doublehead ancestors do not "claim" any Troxell heritage then so be it...either out of ill-will or simply non-affiliation. I would like to make it very clear as well that I am not spreading rumors either....just joining in (or trying to) on a "close to home" topic that concerns my spouse's lineage. Forgive me if I stepped on your geneological toes...that was not my intention in the least...we, like so many other simply seek answers to our family connections. I hope you can forgive me the misnomer of repeating a story that YOU personally are tired of hearing...perhaps tolerance of others who are NEW to this site will follow you and lighten the emotional load that I apparently placed upon your shoulders? I am not a seasoned Native American researcher...heck, we only just started "digging" about 18 months ago after my mother passed away and I realized I knew so very little of her family lines, primarilly: Nichols, Jett, Triplett, Cole, Gisbon, Perkins, Collins, Beall, Jones, Scott.
I wholeheartedly agree with your contention that for the Gregory family...a "tale" of a massacre would in fact be horrid especially if completely untrue. My late mother never "hid" her "mixed-bloodedness" either...she told her truths as she knew them and for that I am grateful...I just hope I can, in my own endeavors, honor her ancestry and memory with clarity.
Blessings from Cincy~~~~Laurie

[Bill Childs]

Laurie,
Vance was disputing the assertion, not you personally.
But no one here should use "you" in caps, it's too inflammatory.

Everyone....
Let us, including myself, be more tolerant than most of my ancestors would have been. We all have our 'hot-buttons' and we all need to exercise more restraint at times when those buttons are pushed.
Declare a truce and get on with the work.
We have a lot to discover.
Bill

[BlondeyeLaurie]

Howdy Bill...if Lance was in fact upset over said assertion...that is understandable and if, as you said, he was not directing it at me then I will indeed dismiss the notion and call a "truce"... I am not a demeaning nor drama-inciting individual and honestly never intended even an iota of harm in posting what I did. *shrugs* I will certainly adhere to your no- caps "you" policy henceforth be it emphatic or otherwise. 'nuff said~~~~Laurie

[Lone Greywolf]

Vance,

Im really not sure where to begin. Bill mentioned something to the effect of holding our tempers so I am going to try real hard.

First off what is that you are holding under your face in the picture? Looks like you used a mug shot for your picture.

As far as the Gregory Family goes in this "Tale", So What....

In american history if your ancestors were here in the 17 & 1800's then chances are you had Indians or indian killers or both in your family. It was just the way this country was formed. There was without a doubt a terribly large number of atrocities done to the American Indians, the original owners of this land.

Massacre after Massacre, so why not this one? I have to ask are you a Gregory decendant? If these falls and this area were so inaccesible would it not be the Ideal place as an Indian stronghold. One way in means protection and safety.

Yes the Jake Troxell Monument is in the Daniel Boone National Forest, But the Cornblossom Monument is not. Its in McCreary County. So were the Governor, Mayor of Stearns, & Dan Troxell all in it together?

We are talking about history that would have been erased and disputed by "The White Man". The only way Many of the stories have been uncovered is by family stories passed down thru the hush hush period. So what is you big beef with the Troxell line?

Cornblossom not a Cherokee accepted name.....Uh have you heard of americanization? Cornblossom can be found in the Deleware language "Pawalin" means "Cornblossom Falls off". This name was a common name given to women. So maybe she was "Cornblossom", Cornstalk, or even Cornonthecob. It may never be known exactly what her name was. But thru americanization and the stories told and endorsed by the Commonwealth of Kentucky, she has been recorded as Cornblossom. For all you know she may have been named Cornblossom in an attempt at friendship with the Deleware and Shawnee who were there in Kentucky.

This topic and your input sure yells opposing tribes to me. All of us, of Native American Descent need to drop the opposing tribe crap and bring unity to all tribes. Had this been done in the beginning maybe the "White Man" would have ran from a good butt kicking.


On a lighter note, thank you for the links and message group listing, and some of your info. You sure appear to be well educated in the matter of indian heritage and I am sure you could help even me with some of your info. But this resentment you hold towards the whole idea of the massacre in question is quite unfavorable and offensive to me personally. Someone so well educated should have more tolerance and a more open mind to things we cannot prove or disprove.

I've got to run 4 now. I hope this message doesnt offend anyone and hope to speak more about this with you.

[rockhound]

There is no need to get angry. Vance is a decent and knowledgeable man.

[marymansour]

Hello Vance,

Thank you for a most excellent and thoughtful response.

My heritage is truly mixed - Cherokee, Shawnee, Osage, Navajo, Zuni, and Hopi - those six we have documented and proved without doubt, and most likely we have some of the lesser-known eastern tribes as well. My immigrant direct line starts in Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Virginia ... with a family of eight siblings all-migrating to the New Land as early as 1634 at Jamestown. Later arrivals up to 1682 included many cousins, aunts, and uncles to Pennsylvania and Virginia.

My language skills are barely adequate to put a few words together in a couple of native tongues, but for the life of me, in no way could we ever put Cornblossom together in Cherokee, or Shawnee. We are familiar with the Tankersly information and it appears to us he is "in the game only for the money." His claim to fame is via the Benge family, but we quickly dispensed with that claim since a very close personal friend of our family is a McLemore (distant relative of Chief Robert Benge), who does have a nearly complete record for that line. We are also very close friends with a Vincent Hobbs direct down line grandson whose grand pappy shot and killed Robert. Fact is, the three of us live within two miles of one another, and are of the same generation. Our ages are 61, 64, and 73 years. So far, nothing but good will amongst us.

Run After McLemore is the reason for the McLemore family locating in Missouri. She passed directly through here on the Trail of Tears 1838, and then wrote a letter telling her family in Tennessee and Kentucky to "move to Missouri." That letter in the McLemore family archives and was dated January 1839 at Tahlequah. The McLemore family also has a picture of Run After, and her youngest daughter Catherine b 1832.

We have copies of the letters between Governors Sevier and Garrard concerning the murders of Red Bird and Will 1797, including the Order by Sever issued to the Sheriff to arrest Ned Mitchell and John Livingston (correct spelling). I think there is a copy of another letter we have, which notifies the Cherokee people about the murders also.

According to the McLemore family records, John McLemore who died 1844 at Knoxville Tennessee was a close personal friend of the oldest son of Red Bird murdered 1797, and signed two Treaties with him. 1) Treaty of Tellico October 1805 signed as Tochuwor. 2) Treaty of Washington D.C. January 1806 signed as Redbird. The Treaty of 1805 at Tellico he signed as a warrior, and was ranking man in the area affected which was then without a Chief. The Treaty of Washington D.C. he signed as Redbird for he had been elected or appointed Chief by a delegation, what delegation and where, we have never been able to validate outside the McLemore family archives. There are some records of Return J. Meigs which everyone knows is missing, and he would have most likely have been the one to give such advice to the local people. We also know the two men went to Washington D.C. with John Greenwood (Sour Mush). The three men allowed seven days from Knoxville to Washington D.C., a distance of more than 450 miles. We are not sure but have a bit of information that causes us to think Meigs made the trip with them. We do know the three men made an agreement between them never to sign another treaty afterward. And to our knowledge, none did.

The source for most of this information is a family diary kept by John McLemore’s wife, Sarah Carnes. No doubt the Carnes name will ring someone’s bell! That family must be the most difficult family to trace that ever existed! On second thought, the Briggs family could be even worse. The McLemore men started marrying Native women with the first émigrés son, James who married direct into the Gilliam family. That James married Fortune Gilliam. Consecutive McLemore men then married Gilliam, Briggs, Edward, Clanton, Carnes and other known full and mixed blood women.

One thing we have learned about the McLemore line, most people have it terribly wrong. Run After had several brothers and sisters, and all of them but two married whites. The only two that married Indian were Run After born 1783 the youngest, and Happy, the oldest who was born circa 1756. They were the daughters of Robert McLemore, the son of Charles McLemore and Quatsis Greenwood. Quatsis was the daughter of Chief Caesar (Thomas) Greenwood and Katie (Shawnee woman). Robert signed the Treaty of Holston July 2, 1791 as Robin McLemore, and according to the diary, nobody could figure out how to say “Robert” in Cherokee.

Again, many thanks for the information. We just want to be sure Cornblossom never existed just in case we step on someone’s toes inadvertently.

Before I forget, the Will killed with Red Bird 1797 was Chief Will of Akoha who signed the Treaty of Hopewell November 28, 1785.


I was very interested in your post. I am a McLemore descendant and am disturbed that so many think Margery Henshaw was an English woman with no Indian connections. There is a fellow named John White who goes under a Cherokee name that says Margery was the daughter of John Henshaw, a fur trader who married a full blooded Ojibwa. Would be interested in conversing with you further on this. Thanks for your post....Mary

[Reba]

I descend from Peter and Jennie Stevenson Troxell. I am completely confused about who Peter's parents were and have know idea who Jennie's parents were. I come down the line through their son George W. Troxell married to Nancy Abbott. I would appreciate any input! Thanks so much, Reba

[Wo-Yi]

Hello,

I am new to this forum, and first wish to thank the hosts!

Big problem for us is, Big Jake Troxell supposedly married the daughter of Doublehead.

Does anyone have first hand proof Cornblossom ever existed?

Every source we have followed ends at the same person, and we have dated the appearance of Cornblossom between 1991 and 1994. Before then it seems she never existed.

We never heard of the Thunderbolt Chickamauga until about the same time-frame. And then next we heard about the Laurel Mountain Thunderbolt Chickamauaga?

Can anyone specifically prove the adults who died at the Yahoo Falls Massacre?

It is known Tuckahoe left Margaret Mounce 1821 and returned to the Cherokee. He left behind one son, and one daughter, but so far as we can discern nobody knows their names. Margaret Mounce married Elisha Roberts 30 Jan 1821 in Wayne County Kentucky accoring to Kentucky Marriage Records. The couple can be documented in 1860 and 1870 Census records in Pulaski County Kentucky proving Elisha b. 1798 and Margaret b. 1800.

Big Jake Troxell married Elizabeth Chartier 1781 in Pennsylvania after his service in the Revolutionary War. He married Elizabeth Brewer 22 Nov 1806, in either Pennsylvania or Maryland. He last married Elizabeth Blevins Steele.

Elizabeth Brewer either died or left Jake before March 20, 1823 when he married Elizabeth Blevins Steel, widow of Christian Steel who she married April 12, 1806 in Wayne County, Kentucky (Richard Barrier ... Bondsman for the Steele-Blevins marriage).

This Elizabeth attempted to continue Jake's Pension for his Revolutionary War Service after his decease. Elizabeth Blevins Steel was born 1796 Morgan, Ashe County, North Carolina. She was the daughter of Wells Blevins, and Elizabeth Armstrong ... married 22 May 1789 in Patrick County, Virginia. Jake and Elizabeth Blevins Steel had one daughter.

We have accounted for every child born to Jake and his three wives, and all of them survived by at least 20 years the event that supposedly took place at Yahoo Falls, Kentucky 1810.

It seems people are confused about War Chief Peter Troxell. He was the bastard son of David Troxell and Elizabeth Chartier. Elizabeth was the grandaughter of Peter Chartier, a Canadian Fur Trader who married a Pekowi Woman. Peter Troxell is the man who married Jenny Stevenson (Standing Fern) 16 Jan 1803 in Wayne County, Kentucky (marriage record is extant).

Anyone have any ideas about all of this?

Thanx,

tlagvga
Tuckahoe was killed by white traders who followed him to the secret silver mine that was once owned by Chief Doublehead. Doublehead's cave is in Wayne County, Kentucky approximately 6 miles NE of Monticello. It is locally called Hines Cave.
In 1928, Webb and Funkhouser wrote a book about the desecration of the cave. The book is entitled "Ancient Life in Kentucky".

The Margaret Mounce in question is actually the daughter of Tuckahoe and Susanna Mounce or Mounts. This is in an old family Bible handed down from my great great grandmother, Dona Roberts, whom was the daughter of Margaret Mounce and Elias Roberts.

[SEKY Decendant]

In the past 10 yrs I have seen so many stories on the Brock family as well as the Natives from Southeastern Ky. I myself like most I would assume while growing up, was being told of my native blood, however living so far away from my father and his family, it wasn't exactly something you seen or heard everyday, atleast not from the horses mouth. My mother was the one that always brodcasted it, which at times got to by very annoying and sometimes humiliating. I've never been one to be in the spotlight, and to have someone place me there at times, well, lets just say I wasn't the happiest at those times.

As I got older I started traveling more and spending more time with my fathers family. However, being of native decent wasn't something that was talked about very much. Perhaps it was the place in which they grew up, or maybe not. I do however know that when my father or my aunt or my grandmother speak of their blood, they always refer to my great grandmother, and more so to her parents. They themselfs however don't believe their diluted blood carrys much of anything with it. Which I guess is why they refer to "the indians" when talking about different things in the mountains etc. My grandmother has always stated that the "Brocks" had native blood in them, to what degree she never really stated, however from her and their looks it evidently was bred back in throughout the generations.

I knew nothing of this "Red Bird" of Aaron Brock etc, until my stepmother had my fathers lineage done. They gave me a copy and I started going over it. Right off the bat I thought something was wrong. I thought there is no way that 5 generations back from me 50% of them were Brocks! So, for the past 10 yrs I've been going over all of this information. And for the people that I can find documented proof of as far as actually being alive and marrying one another etc, the census list them as "white". Which kinda throws me for a loop when looking at my family. So, that is why I am documenting the lineage before anything else. Which back tracking 10 yrs really sucks, considering I'm stuck on a great great grandmother with no d. cert who died in 1961. My father finally told me tonight that she remarried after her husband had passed. That could be why I can't find her. As for my fathers father, my grandfather, who was supposidly born in 1932, there is no birth cert for him, however I did find a birth cert with my grandfathers mother listed, however the childs name isn't the same and the supposid father isn't correct either. The birth cert for the child is listed as 1 Apr 1931, and my grandfather was supposidly born 2 Apr 1932. Now his mother only had 1 child, out of wedlock, before she was murdered on 4 Jul 1938. And my father is a Jr. and my eldest brother a 3rd, however on my grandfathers death cert. his middle name isn't what my fathers believed it was, making my father not a jr. etc.. So, I believe my grandfathers name was changed along the way, after his mother was murdered. I assume either because his grandmother my great great grandmother didn't want him to be seen as a bastard child, or because the father was looking for him.(?) I still don't know. I still don't know why his mother was murdered either, in public on the 4th of July at 24 yrs old.

I don't know that the Brock native blood will ever be able to be proven. I think perhaps it may always be just what it is, a family story. But then again, being native isn't about blood, it's about culture and language and identifying to something as a people. I will keep my searching for documentation, and DNA when I need to make a connectiong to another person(with name changes), until I get that and proven back to 1850 or earlier, proving the Brocks had native blood in them, won't do any good. Atleast not for me. However, when I look at my family, I see the blood, I feel the blood, and for me at the moment, thats enough.

I'll try to attach a photo of my father and my aunt. To me, they don't resemble Brocks from southeastern Ky, and according to my father, who won't talk about it, him and his sibilings have more than 1/4th in them, which I believe is where his father comes into play, since a dark poorly taken picture resembles him to be more so than his children. My father has Brocks surnames on both his mother and fathers mothers side.....

-Chad

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