Texas Saponi

[Linda]

This is for Scott mainly. You know anything about Sulfur Springs TX? I've got a lady over on the Other Blackfoot yahoogroup who's asking. Her family's like mine, identified as blackfoot.

[collins]

Yes I have family there. Have not met them, at least I do not think I have. In our family we have the tradition of saying we are Blackfoot, Pawneese (Saponi), etc... I would like to talk to this person some time or post to her. My lines contain Collins, Johnson, Jones, Roberts, Robinson, Stodgill, Cheney, Woodward, Scott, Lewis, McCulley-McCullock, Riley, Millican, Miller, Keel, Whitaker, and Puss just to name a few. No, that last one is not a typo. Her name was Katherine Puss.

[nclark]

Hi, I had the question about the Blackfoot in Sulfur Springs TX. Actually I was just asking if anyone knew wheter or not there were some there because that is where my husband's family is from. His gr gr grandmother was 1/2 or 3/4 Native American yet the verdict is still out in terms of what group we think Cherokee but we don't know. We do believe that she must have been close to her traditions and language because before she died, everyone thought that she was talking out of her head, but the doctor recognized it as an Indian language. I find it interesting that you have some Robinsons though because that is also his family group. They were in Sulfur Spings and I believe Dennison for a while and then moved to Eufaula,OK and eventually Salpulpa,OK before the family split and headed for the Midwest.
The Blackfoot that I was talking about is my gr gr grandmother. She was born in NC (Though some census records say MS) around 1852 give or take a year and was an Indian slave. She lived in Webster Co. MS. My grandmother told me that she was sold from slavery and married my gr gr grandfather who was mixed I guess Black, but definetly Caucasian, most people could'nt tell that he wasn't and the census records have whole sections of the family listed as white and mulatto. So I was wondering if anyone knows about a history of slavery concernng the Blackfoot and/or where i can begin searching that out. Thanks for any help given, just being able to connect to somebody else who knows what I'm talking about is great in and of itself.

[Linda]

If we assume that NC-derived Blackfoot is synonymous with Saponi, then my husband has two gr-gr grandmothers who were Indians slaves in the VA piedmont, spitting distance from the old Saponi reservation (Fort Christanna.)

[nclark]

Linda

Does he know the circumstances that led to them being enslaved? Also, I need a visual picture do you know if there is a map somewhere onthe Internet that would be helpful( in seeing the distnce between the Fort and other counties, etc) I have a cousin who was very close to my great grand mother. I'm going to pick her brain tonight and see if there are any stories handed down about or NC connection.

[Linda]

The story that was passed onto Barry's cousin was that this gr-gr-grandmother was kidnapped as a little girl and sold into slavery. We'd assumed she was taken from a ways off, but the perplexing thing is, it appears for one report that she was born just a few counties over. I've since wondered if this wasn't the "Foster care" system of the day for non-white children. I know I've seen that white children who were "orphans" or whatever were bonded into apprenticeships.

I also have a friend who found a paper trail showing that his Tuscarora ancestor had been bound over to a white man as a slave, near where he'd always lived.

We were at an NAACP meeting in Lunenberg, VA last week and we asked several of the "light skinned" people if they had Indian ancestors, "Oh yes!!" was the reply. One lady we asked looked so much like Barry's mom we did a double take. He looked so much like her grandson she double-taked too.

Personally, I think this whole issue of Indian enslavement in the upper south, at least, is way overlooked.

[barryc]

I started a new thread to answer this question so that our forum is searchable for people in the future who have similar questions. If we all do this then we will create a knowledge base that many others can use for years and decades.

Please see my post at Saponi Indian Slaves at:
http://winwinworldnet.90.uslive.net/SaponiForum/UBB/Forum3/HTML/000004.html

Barry

[This message has been edited by barryc (edited 04-06-2001).]

[collins]

My 5th Great Grand Father, from my mother's side, Jesse Keel was indentured in North Carolina. The legal document found says that Jesse chose his master out of two men and his brother chose the other. It is not clear why this was done but we know that their father Hardy Hardee Keel was dead at that time. I'll post the court proceedings next time. This was done in Pitt county near and around the Tar River area. Also does anyone know anything about Guy Hall Swamp?

[Linda]

Good golly. Pitt county is the next county over. We're over there a couple times a week with the Drum. There's a Heritage Center over in Kinston (20 minutes) that's supposed to be good. Let me know if there's something specific we should look for.

Here's the Eastern Bull crew (last year's picture, we weren't there yet.) Barry just made member this past week. We have a dedication ceremony this weekend for the Eastern Bull Center.

www.saponitown.com/easternbull/ (http://www.saponitown.com/easternbull/)


[This message has been edited by Linda (edited 04-09-2001).]

[barryc]

Scott, do you have any Hardy relatives in Pitt and Greene co NC? Our friend Sandy Hardy's people are from here. There is a tri-racial indian community here in Snow Hill. Barry

[collins]

Hardy Hardee Keel
I am not sure on the last name Hardy. If there are any Keel or Whitaker folks around your area they most likely are my relations. Also Collins and Johnson. Jesse Keel and Priscilla Whitaker left the Tar River back in 1800 and treked through the Cherokee Nation and resided within the Nation until the removal treaty in 1834-1836. After, they purchased the land they were on and the mountain was named after Jesse Keel. They call it Keel Mountain. This is in Jackson County Alabama. On this mountain is a rock called Indian Look Out Rock. Just below the mountain is the town of Paint Rock. I need to look at intruder lists if they exist for the Cherokee Nation prior to removal. I am aware that there were Cherokee towns there in that vicinity and my ancestors have stories of Indians there helping them in many ways. The one thing I have always been curious about is what they did during the Creek War for this occured in that general area and Jackson came through there.

[collins]

Ok I am looking at my book and I see I must make a correction. The name is Hardee-Hardy Keel. Says he bought some land in 1765 from a Benjamin Sanders in Pitt county, N.C. Says he died before 1792 and may have moved to Halifax district Edgecomb county, N.C. about five years before his death. This is supposed to account for Jesse Keel's indenture there in 1792. In an abstract from court minutes in Edgecomb county, N.C. 1744-1746, 1757-1794, by Marvin K. Dorman,Jr. 1968 pg.97 Tuesday Nov.27,1792 -- Jesse Keel age 13 years old bound to Thomas Lauriner. pg. 107 Thursday, August 28,1794 Jesse Keel, 15 years old, bound to Thomas Laurence. On page 98 Nov.30,1792 Willie Keel requested a master. Then on page 108 Tues. Nov. 25,1794-- Limon Keel, orphan of Hardy Keel, chose Arthur Brown as his guardian (Limon is most likely Simon Keel)
Priscilla Whitaker is the duaghter of a John Whitaker and wife's name unknown. Priscilla Whitaker was born in ca.1784
In the case Samuel Norwood versus Jesse Keel Madison county Alabama 1819 this case had to do with money Jesse had given a law man to give to a Francis Erwin for a note. This law man either spent the money or lost it and this caused the trouble. In this legal document it specifically states that the law could not go to get Jesse Keel because he resided within the Cherokee Nation. They had to wait till he came into town for supplies before siezing him. And of course he did not know what was going on when that happened. My 6th great grand father had to pay this 70.00 sum twice on this note becuase of the crooked law man in that town. This book I have called Keel-Whitaker Barnette,Johnson, Keel, and Whitaker has some 596 pages. It contains a whole mess of names, dates, children, legal documents from court records, land records, and military records. The main problem with this book is the analytical quality to it. It is an excellent resource for me and I am most greatful to have it, however, there is alot of family members that I have that put it together from a white persceptive and being that they are in Alabama I guess I can understand why. There are alot of unanswered questions and most of the military information has to do with Civil War stories and WWI and WWII. One of the oddities that is in the book is the fact that they seem to have raised silk worms and produced woolsey-lensey which is made from wool and plant fibers. They used black walnut shell for brown dye and copperas for the color orange. On a peice of this cloth is three small stripes and one wide stripe then it repeats. They raised the silk, spun it, wove it, and sewed it. My question is were did they get silk worm back then? Why did they not use cotton and wool instead of plant fiber and wool?
The Whitakers: supposedly one of the writers seems to think that the Whitakers came from Chester and Bucks counties PA. with the Boones, Canteys, and Grahms to Rowan county N.C. Now according to this research one of my relations was married to Katie Boone daughter of Squire Boone, the uncle to Daniel Boone. Now when Daniel went to KY some of my relations went there with them but did not like it there so moved to Mulberry, TN. All Whitakers in Lincoln county, TN descend from this line. Back in Pitt county, N.C. John Whitaker had married a Mary Williams it goes on to give tax list information with Hardee Keel, William Keel, John Whitaker, and Simon Sanders 1784 tax list Pitt county, N.C. It says a Thomas Williams gave John Whitaker both of Beaufort county 25 acres of land on Tranter's Creek. Thomas Williams was Mary Williams father. The land area that was under the Keel and Whitaker families was on Trantor's Creek which runs off another creek from the Tar River. This starting in Beaufort county and running west wards into Pitt county. Tyrrell county is due north, Edgecomb is due west, Dobbs county is due south west, and Craven county is south. The Pamlico Indians and the Secotan were in this general area along with the Tuscarora. This book, however does not even talk about Indians accept in dealing with their residence in the Cherokee Nation and the almost familial nature of friendship the Indians always had towards us.
So alot of questions remain. I hope this will be of interest to you and perhaps you may be able to shed some light on these matters as I am not all that familar with indentures or that area or state other than some history of the Indians there. And only scant history information at that.

[collins]

On pages 208 and 389 of this book I see Hardy listed. I see a Thomas Howard Kennemer b.Aug.30 1941 in Benton, KY. He is or was a T.V. newscaster. He married a Mrs. Betty Ann Hardy May 29, 1976. She is the daughter of Mrs. Arvis Buxbaum. I went to page 389 but couldn't find the entry for Hardy. I see Carter listed as well on pages 36, 97, 138, 148, 149, 302, 317, 319, 390, 446, 472, and 501. I will look them up if you wish. There are skads of names in this book with children and marriages etc... They really did a good job in putting it together I just wish they would have dealved into the Indian question a little more. I talked to Hilda Barnette my cousin by phone once or twice about some of this and she said that their main goal was just records and that anything else was up to us younger generations. So here we are now what?

[collins]

Mecou, I have a few last comments. I would just like to say that I wished I lived there around you guys so that it would be easier to share and so you could actually see the things I have collected over the years. The lack of support I feel here in Texas on these issues can really get me down at times. I feel in some ways like a wayward refugee amoungst my family for I seem to be the only one here in North Texas that is aware of these things or that cares about them. I was trying to go over the Tutelo-Saponi language last night and realized that unless someone with a linguistics degree can create a better way to learn the language then we are all out of luck. I do not have a college education, although I am thinking of going soon, and the Occaneechi language program is for members only; so it is kind of like re-inventing the wheel or the a-bomb. Unless I can spend time trying to understand the grammer and the syntax of the language then trying to learn it in an English since will not do our language justice. It would seem, from my perspective, that one has to be linguast, historian, organizer, lawyer, and genalogist all at once. I do not know about ya'll in North Carolina but here in Texas these are daunting tasks of which I am unsure I can accomplish. I am trying though. For now I am in efforts to research the history of our people to get a better idea of what type of culture they had, the artistic language of our people, the way they viewed the world and spirit world around them and so for right now this is eating most of my time. In the past I have been more focused on genalogy and getting legal documents to prove my Indian heritage. In doing this I was hoping to validate myself to myself and have relativly accomplished that goal for the most part. There is still work that needs to be done but I realize that others out of state are working on some of this as well. I pray blessings on you all and may we one day be one, unified in our common blood ties, and better able to present a whole picture of our peoples history, culture, and wonderous heritage. Bila huk oho!
Cotton Top

[collins]

I hope I am not driving you guys crazy with this information. Hope it helps some one.
This is an excerpt from the Will of John Collins the Saponi arrested in Orange County,VA 1742
Dec.27,1749 Bertie county, N.C.
North Carolina Wills Book filed with the Office of the Secretary of State
(I will put this info. in my own words so you know the area it occured)
This document can be located on the MyFamily.com site

The land he owned was on the Casshi River. This is how it was spelled by him. It was about 200 acres purchased from a Jonathan Standlye. Then he owned 150 acres on the north side of Guy Hall Swamp purchased of Hardy Keel who is my mothers 5th great grand father. (Hardee-Hardy Keel)
I have tried to inquire about these locations and only know that they are just outside the old Tuscarora reservation area eastward. Guy Hall Swamp I know nothing about but it seems that I have read or heard it mentioned before in connection with either a tri-racial isolet community or an Indian community. The Casshi River is mentioned several times in the book titled The Tuscarora which I have sent off for again to take better notes out of. If anyone knows anything or can get information on these localities and their history please let me know. I know of the information that there was a John Collins who had come to the Saponi and acted as translator for them and that this may have been how the name was first recieved as a type of honorary thing. Also I am aware that a teacher named Griffin was sent to the Saponi to teach them and that several of my relatives became teachers due to this. The info. on John the interprator and Griffin was come by through Brenda Collins Dillion and Frankie Blackburn. The information about how many teachers I had in my family comes from the Trullingers of Missouri. These three sources along with information obtained by Heriberto Airy Dixon and Christopher Scott Everett, Donna Tower, Dorothy Wren, and Richard Haithcock have been my most volumanous sources. I have also done some research as well and have relied on the source materials from scores of books. I would like to take an oppurtunity to thank them all for all the work they have done over the years and let everyone know that these folks have done so much for the history of our people outside the state of North Carolina. On the educational side I am aware that the college William and Mary had an Indian program that was sponsored by Thomas Jefferson and the Presbaterians. I have inquired as to records for this time period and was told that the records burned. I, however, think that the Presbaterian Church may hold copies of records regarding their sponsorship of these Indians as they sponsored them for the purpose of making them missionaries to the Saponi. I have tried to send an e-mail to the Presbaterians but have as yet recieved no response on it. Purhaps one of you may have better luck contacting them than I. There are a couple of dynamics that you may need to be made aware of. First, as you may already know, there is a fued stewing over whom is the truest group or tribe of Saponi. Second, there are those researchers out there that may be in the works of compiling a book or two about our people and so this may account for the stand offish nature and secreting away of information. On the book issue I sure hope someone does get one published and soon cause personally I am chomping at the bit waiting for one. Thirdly, there is a contraversy on recognition becuase those already recognized already do not get enough support from the government and the efforts of others less fortunate maybe viewed as a threat to sovereignty, tribal money distribution, and the claims of a valid Indian anscestory made less valid. Fourthly, it appears that some operate on the level of fear that they will not get what they are seeking and so this causes them to be mean, nasty, and accusatory. I wish these people love and luck and prosperity so they may realize just how much damage they do to the rest of us just trying to connect and aid our people. This is the reality I live with, that we all live with. Some of us even have the extra burden of being so far seperated from the rest of our people that travel is so very exspensive and inpracticle. In some of the states, like Texas for example, it may still not be a wise decision to be open about our heritage. Not that it is shamful to be Indian it is that it is shamful to be viewed as someone that does not fit the sterotype and then to say you are Indian. This illiciates the "wannabe" name calling and the other derogatory words flung our way as an attempt to perpetuate the sterotypes our society has built up concerning Native America. We have Native brothers, who out of ignorence, do not know the history of our people and so see us as a threat to their Indianess. We have African Americans that see us and think we are trying to get out from under the Black catagory of race or that we are trying to pass as White or something other. We have Hispanics that basically are Indians themselves but yet view everyone in America as gringo or White or Black. Asians do not much think on us at all and so they are learning the same sterotypes a new. Even we ourselves are having a hard time in truely accepting ourselves as Indian becuase of the doubt we were brought up in and the bombardment of the sterotypes and Hollywood. When you go to the drum remember us for we all need the support of a community that you may enjoy. pray that we find our way out of the maze of depression and the dimensions of loneliness so rampent in our communities. Pray that the Peace Bringer will once again walk in our midst to light our collective path in the way of the rough terrain that is our reality. Pray for peace and healing for our people. Blessings to you all. Bila huk, Cotton Top

[Linda]

What a contribution! Thank you so much for all that information.

I'm wondering what the borders of Pitt county were in those days. Perhaps it was much larger before new counties were added. I know Tar River sounds right. Complicated. Don't worry about any Hardy's unless they're in old Tuscarora territory. I think our friend's family's just been here. Same for Carter. I don't think they've strayed beyond Mecklenburg, VA.

As for the silk worms, what time frame was all this going on? I know that before the invention of the cotton gin it was hard to work with cotton. And I believe silk worms had been pirated from China by the time our country was colonized.

I got a chance to look at your family tree on myfamily.com. I've been meaning to ask you, it's very interesting to see that your Keels took a completely different route to Texas than your Collins. Do you have any theories on this? Is there documentation that the Keels were Saponi? They all must have been literate if they kept in touch over those generations and wound up in the same place in Texas. Wouldn't you say?

The bit about one of the Keel kids requesting a master is striking. I guess he's requesting an apprenticeship. Is there indication of the race of these kids? Or are you as mystified by what all this means as I am. Maybe the Heritage Center in town would get us in touch with someone who knows how to interpret this stuff.

I'm hoping we can all get our family info onto online trees. I'm not sure about myfamily.com. I'm having trouble getting the hang of it. I also have misgivings about putting all our data up on some big company site that could vanish someday, and all our data with it. We need to brainstorm about this. Maybe someone can research some shareware family tree program that we can all access and that can be published privately.

On this note, let me also say that I think we should look at having a few "archiving" volunteers. Let's organize downloading our website and forum onto separate computers in separate locations so this information is not lost. This is OUR website, not MY website.

I'm sorry you're feeling so lonesome out there. There's good reason you've been called to tend to all this and it will all work out.

[collins]

Mecou,Yes I am just as mistified by this request of a master too. According to the information they also put out the theory that these indentured may have been for debts or apprenticeships. No concrete fact though. On the race I am unsure what may have been found or seen since they sure wouldn't have put anything saying Mallato or FPC. Being in Alabama and all. On the family ties it has been a strange string of "coincadence" that these two sides kept bumping into one another over the years. The thing is that different sides met up in different places over time. Most of my mom's side came to Texas back around the late 1800's and early 1900's. The Scott family is a mystery because I have yet to trace their place of origins as yet. My fathers side had some coming into Texas during the drought time of the depression and then during the 1930's a large number were thrown off lands in MO. There are so many stories about Indian heritage in many parts of each family that it has been very hard to keep tract. I know of my dad's family lines that settled in every place with some line of my mom's. It is kind of erie. Bila huk, Cotton Top

[collins]

Also on the different routes taken to Texas. You may be surprised to note that there are Collins in Northern Alabama and Johnsons too. All related in some way or other.

[Crystal]

Mecou guys,
What is the name of the Presbyterian Church and I'll see what info I can dig up. I've been to W&M and getting any information out of them is like pulling teeth. I'm still trying to convince them to allow us to use the last remaining cannon from Ft. Christanna. No such luck.

I went to Hampton University to see what information I could gather there. They don't want to let go of much either. What I keep running into is the whole "Big Secret" syndrome. <GRRR>

Let me know and I'll see what I can do.

Crystal http://winwinworldnet.90.uslive.net/SaponiForum/UBB/smile.gif

[RavenWolf]

Thinking about Texas...

My Grandfather's Great Grandfather was a a slave in Virginia, who bought his freedom and went to Texas and became a Black Cowboy.

The thing is, I've seen a picture of My Grandma's mother-- she had wavy hair and almond eyes; oval face , thin lips.

Not too many "Pure African" looked like that.

I don't get it.



------------------
RavenWolf
Wahya Golanv
AniGilohi
AniGitlagvahita
Uganawvkalvgv Kituwah Ayeli- Southeast Kituwah Nation

[Linda]

Where was your grandma's mother from? Same place as the Black Cowboy?

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Shardy,


I read your message on John Collins of Bertie Co. being the John Collins arrested in the 26 Saponi's of Orange Co. Va 1742 court case. What documentation do you have that says he and Saponi John Collins are one in the same? I always felt it was possible as I believe it is also possible that David Collins 1750 , son of John of Bertie, and my Meredith"Meridia" are related in some way but after all these years of searching I still have no proof. We do know from the Will of John Collins of Bertie Co. that he owned several "slaves" and I would love to know who they were as well as children they brought forth. John Collins of Bertie Co. was an educated man and most of his children were also. Meredith "Meridia" Collins was not educated. No marriage record has ever been found in any of the three relationships and the only records I have discovered were signed with a mark X thus leading me to believe that he might have been the son of a slave woman. It is hard to understand in this year of 2001 with all the resources we have for searching that this man could just appear from nowhere.

You see I NOW use the name Meredith "Meridia" Collins. I am also convienced that the early records where his name appears as "Meridia" not Meredith might be correct. In 1776 when he enlisted in the Fincastle Co. Militia his name appeared as "Meridia" . In 1797 on microfilm of Wilkes Co. NC tax list his name also appears as "Meridia" . Question......Is there a meaning in Indian language for "Meridia" or when pronounced by the English was Meredith the closest sounding name?



Brenda Collins Dillon

[This message has been edited by Brenda Collins Dillon (edited 04-19-2001).]

[collins]

Mecou Brenda, you should know full well this story by now. You and and Frankie are the ones that brought this tid bit of info. to our families attention. The names, dates, areas, and history give enough detail to know who is who. If you know something about John Collins that I do not may be you should share with this forum. We all also know that many Saponi were educated in the Indian schools and missions. We further know that many Saponi families had to list there relatives as slaves or else be jailed for tax evasion. You know this family line all too well. You, Frankie, and Richard have all three talked to me by phone. It has been from your conversations stating the very high likelyhood plus the Will, the census record, and the court records which piont to this conclusion. This is your documentation. If you have put out erroneous information about John Collins then perhaps you should correct it.

[collins]

Looking at the Will I see listed Robin, Toney, Venus, and a mention of a possible future child. They are listed as negro, however, there is no mention of them being slaves in the since of the white man's slave. If they were indeed slaves then some one will have to prove that by documentation. As far an accusation of my 6th great grand father John Collins being a slave master this is just not the case. Richard Haithcock knows my family well and can vouch for the information we have shared. The court document lists a John Collins and a John Jr. John Jr. is John Collins' grandson. This documentation came from the census, tax, and Will records of the family. There are Bible records, Church records, and even a study done by the Forrest Service back in the 1930's when they kicked our people off lands they had resided on for 150 years. The other documentations are in the works from what I am told and once the case record is fully revealed I am sure there will be enough documentation to choke a horse. On the issue of John Collins being well educated I think that is debatable. We do believe they had education, however, it was not extensive for some in the family for back then. If it were, then why could they not spell correctly or use proper gramer? Yes, they probably were more literate and educated than most others of the time but again Indians were getting educations back then. Indians also owned slaves. The records I have seen would suggest that the negros or mulattos in their house holds were more like family. There is at least one census record that I have seen that lists one of our Collins relatives in his early 20's living with a negro wife. She was 16, he was 20 to 24. What conclusions would you draw? There is an African American identified portion of our family in Missouri as per some of the family I talked with there about 2 years ago. Alot of this stuff has been secreted away over the years to protect the family from the KKK which is active in those areas. I hope that you, Brenda, do not take either of these postings as a slight against you, for they are not. I will say this though; my correspondence with you and Frankie caused my ostrasization from my Missouri family. And I know why. I have even had threating language used at me by phone. I will also say that I have been trying to get away from all that hub bub because it is not productive. I will share information. I will continue the research and I will not be deterred. Even if all the world is against me I will continue. I do know the trueth of my heritage. My families on both sides are Indian. They represent many Nations enteracting. They are Saponi, Cherokee, Osage, Tuscarora, Choctaw, and Melungeon. They are also Irish, German, Dutch, and Scots. I make no pretence and I have no secrets. I answer questions as honestly and truthfully as I can with the information I have available. I have a cousin here in Texas that was raised by my great grandmother Ruthie. Ruthie spoke the Saponi language and Cherokee. This cousin is Donna Mae Jones and she remembers the words. I know who I am. I am a human being just like everyone else. I am trying to unravel the past years of assimilation too. People are putting my ancestors names in their books and then neglecting to involve us with the efforts of reviving our culture or flat out accusing us of some underhanded dealings which are unfounded at least concerning myself and my immediate family. I am the only voice to step out of the assimilation mold since my great grand mother and the only voice here in Texas that I am aware of. I realize that some of what was said here may be considered bad internet etiquette but I am tired of being silent for past 2 years. I want to be apart of my people where ever they are. Bila huk, Cotton Top

[Linda]

Hmmm. I can see feelings are strong. I don't know how much effort this would take, but I would very much like to see the plain data, with no interpretation. Not that I want to see a precedent set of us questioning one another's conclusions. I suppose we'll go through some of that, inevitably, but hopefully we're going to always have to keep a certain humility that on an ultimate level these issues are a matter of BELIEF rather than fact. After 300 years, a sparse record of a primarily "illiterate" population only loosely connected to the record-keeping government is never going to reveal that much. Ultimately we have to rely on what we feel.

I have zero expectation of finding "proof" of my family's origins. So far, I've found way, way more than I ever expected, and enough that I am satisfied on certain points.

I don't want to see us just believing what one person said, taking that as fact, teaching that to someone else and so on until we've created a whole mythology that will eventually come down around our ears. I'd like to see good academic methods used, citing our sources, helping one another access primary sources and hashing through the interpretations.

On the other hand, I don't intend to wait until every t is crossed and every I dotted. Basically, because I don't think that will ever happen, and I think we've got other work to do. We're supposed to be celebrating WHOEVER it is out there who got intentionally buried and forgotten. Hopefully that spirit will dominate.

On the issue of slavery, I have a feeling we may have to belly up to the bar and face the possibility that some of our people truly owned slaves. My friend, Gene, has finished dissertation research on our neighbors, the Tuscarora in NC and they were HEAVY into selling Indian slaves into New England in early colonial days.

I asked him, did they realize that this was a nasty, lifelong slavery, not the relatively benign captivity that led to adoption that Natives were accustomed to. He said, they knew. They had to know. They were getting quite rich on some big business and had to know what was up.

I've been talking to another guy up on the Tuscarora reservation who gave me an interpretation, I'm not sure if it's a modern spin on the same book learning we're all doing, or if it's oral history from way back. It has to do with how the warring faction of Tuscarora were "sold down the river" by another faction. I got the picture of a relatively assimilated group, led by an Anglicized guy who could wheel and deal with the whites, who didn't have the grievances the main body did. Those are the people believed to have stayed behind, too. It may be that this was going on with our people too. I don't think by any means, those are the ONLY people who did not refugee to the Iroquois, but we're fooling ourselves if we reject that that's some of the story.

It's my understanding that in North Carolina as a whole, slaveholders averaged a small number of slaves and they all tended to work side by side. There's an account at (19th century) Governor Aycock's birthplace of him sitting at the family dinner table shooting peas with a boy his age who was a slave in the family.

In my mind, the assimilated generations we may be finding in the record are likely not the Old Souls calling to us, so how they acclimated to their situation is not all that important to me. Those Old Souls aren't going to be communicating via paper trails in the first place. Those trails are just what we're familiar with and we should use them to make ourselves comfortable, but know they're only going to take us so far. Eventually there's going to come a place for a leap in faith.


[This message has been edited by Linda (edited 04-18-2001).]

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Shardy,

WOW, I didn't mean to step on any toes. I have been out of touch for several months and thought something might have surfaced as proof of the John of 1742 and John of Bertie Co.NC.

Brenda

[Linda]

Just came across this timeline. It might be what's needed to make this issue comprehensible.

*************************

IT BEGINS:

Timeline for COLLINS in NC, TN, VA and KY

1742 Orange Co VA

27 Jan 1742 Thursday the xxviith day of January MDCCXLIII "Alexander Machartoon, John Bowling, Manicassa, Capt. Tom, Isaac, Harry, Blind Tom, Foolish Jack, Charles Griffin, John Collins, Little Jack. Indians being brought before the court by precept under the hands and seals of Wm Russell & Edward Spencer, Gent. for terrifying one Lawrence Strother & on suspicion of stealing hoggs........" The above put up security individually. It was ordered that their guns be taken from them till they are ready to depart out of this county, "they having declared their intentions to the Court to depart this colony within a week" (Orange Co..VA Order Book 3 1741-1743. 309) Orange Co Va Microfilm Reel 31, Va State Archives.

**See 12 May 1742, Orange Co..Va, reference to "about twenty-six of the Saponi Indians that inhabit on "Colonel Spotswood's land. Charles Griffin had been a white man who taught school in the Saponi Indian town at Fort Christiana from January 1715 NS to the spring of 1718.

To continue with the lengthy list of descendants click on http://members.nbci.com/Appalachian/html/timeline.html

[collins]

Mecou, I am sorry if anyone was offended by my words. You have to understand that in the past two years it has taken alot for me not to just burn all this information I have collected across 15 years of research. Probably about 50 to 75 % of what I have collected over the years is information I was led to that others put together and I have never made any bones about it. I will be listing sources and transcribing the information presently. Yes, like most others I am interested in pure research too. I do not run on assumptions of one particular individual. Nor do I necessarily reley strictly on my own interpretation of the information I come across. I have consulted with professors, family, other ametuer genalogists like myself, etc... I believe I have listed sources in the past on books that I had read in regards to some issues. I will do like-wise in future. Again if anyone was offended by anything that I have said please accept my appologies. My mission in life is not to hurt or harm anyone. Bila huk, Cotton Top

[barryc]

We cannot get too formal with all of this. There is place for family lore, ideas, intuition, conjecture and theories. We don't want to discard this. Likely none of us will have 100% documentation on very much. All East Coast Indians are in the same boat.

There is a forum thread specifically for this type info:
http://winwinworldnet.90.uslive.net/SaponiForum/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Family+Lore&number=7&DaysPrune=365&LastLogin=

It is critical for us to keep information flowing informally and open in order to synergized and figure out how things fit together.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Linda,

The URL you listed was for the website put together by Frankie Blackburn, William Martin and myself. It is a site of gathered research placed online to share with others searching the same line. The TIMELINE mentioned was authored by Frankie and myself as a tool to track her Griffin and the four Collins men that joined the RW together in 1776 that I have been looking for. I wanted to correct you on the wording of "descendants" as all on that list is not related but other Collins that appear in the same area as did ours. It is possible they are related in some way and just as possible they are from other lines.

The connection of Griffin and "Meridia" is that Griffin signed the marriage bond for my John W. Collins to Lydia Toner in Grainger Co. TN 1821( U of TN Library). John W. was the son of Meridia thus there appears to be a link between the two men but what has never been proven. The four Collins men who entered McDaniel's Fincastle Co. militia in 1776 were enlisted on the same day and in the same district: George, David,Lewis, and Meridia Collins. The record was found in the basement of the Christianburg, Va. courthouse and a copy was sent to me. There is a partial list on my website but the list was in the old handwritting and very hard to read. Of those four Collins men they were still together in the Montgomery Co. militia durning the 1780's ( Kegley's book) and David, Lewis and Meridia were together as late as 1796 Wilkes Co. NC tax list. As near as we could find, David and Lewis went to Tennessee and Meridia showes up on a Russell Co. tax list in 1799. He remained there til 1809 and moved across into Kentucky by 1810.

Brenda

[This message has been edited by Brenda Collins Dillon (edited 04-19-2001).]

[Linda]

I thought the point raised was kind of simple -- what the theory is to connect the records of these two John Colins.


I read your message on John Collins of Bertie Co. being the John Collins arrested in the 26 Saponi's of Orange Co. Va 1742 court case. What documentation do you have that says he and Saponi John Collins are one in the same?

All this other data is making my head swim, to tell the truth, it doesn't seem like it would be that hard to summarize the argument. Can you put it in a nutshell, Scott? Also, I'm curious how this John Collins who got in a scrape for terrorizing a white man relates to the John Collins who got in trouble for burning a field that I've heard about.

Brenda, most of those Collins listed in that timeline are listed as white. Are they on the list because you all question that they're white, or were you all just trying to be completely inclusive on that, and list all known Collins?

[collins]

Mecou, The way I have understood it was that John was arrested in Orange County Virginia, left there and was arrested in Brunswick County in 1728? for the same thing. I think this may have been where I saw the John Jr. listed. This stuff makes my head swim too. You have to understand that the Collins families are numerous and most are related in some way or other. These particular families in VA and N.C. who ended up going into TN, KY, Indiana, IL, and MO. They are directly linked up with the Melungeon groups of those areas and the going theory is that the Saponi and Melungeons either are the same people or merged very early on.?????
So I have read, so I have been told. Bila huk

[Linda]

So, it is believed these two John Collins, Saponi, sightings relate to the same person, but that this is a matter of interpretation. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with believing a likely scenario, I'd just like us to always remain very clear that this is a matter of belief and not hard evidence. And twenty of us believing this is still not a point of "fact," if such things even exist. Perhaps there is a lot of additional circumstantial evidence that adds a great deal more weight, and I'd love to learn about that.

Maybe what I'm trying to say is, I'd like to see our thrust be to "learn" more about this ancestry, as opposed to "proving" anything about it. We know in our hearts what's there, the data just helps us connect with it, it isn't IT. It's like a false idol.

[collins]

Mecou, this post is basically for Brenda. I would like to appoligize if have mispoken or in any way offended you. I am not the best of organizers of information and over the years I have seen alot of data concerning our family. I have been very unorganized in the way I have proceeded with some of the research and at times have not had the oppurtunity to copy everything I have seen word for word or xerox. It is a hard task to understand all the dynamics involved in migration, the way our government kept records, interpreting those records, and discerning in whom to trust in regards to valid information or motive factors. I have become confused over the years to know just how to proceed and who to believe concerning my families heritage. I trust my close immediate families experiences the most for they are what I know and grew up with. For everyone else outside my close family I do not know them and therefore have no reason to believe or disbelieve those findings. My best subjects are art, religion, and cultural study. I am not a genealogist or a scholarly historian. If any information I have posted is incorrect please accept my deepest appologies as I am working to organize my information while at the same time researching our culture. I may have too many irons in fire sort of thing. Bila huk oca hok ne de wa ha, bila huk oho!

[troislangues]

symbol meaning perplexed....

Linda and Barry, I know this thread is old but I just read it. Why did you guys only ask the lighter-hued people if they had Indian blood at that NAACP event? I am wondering about regional differences and opinions regarding Black Indians. Many people we see with the lightest hues in Indian circles typically are more Red than African and those with darker hues are typically 50% or less (of course, individual appearances belying race and ethnicity apply). I just wish we all could get past color and embrace ethnicity. It's too bad our people are still in hiding. By all this, I mean our ancestors who ignore their heritages and live unfulfilled lives.

[Linda]

The reason was simple. A lady walked in looking like a carbon copy of my mother-in-law, we introduced ourselves to her and talked to her and the people around her, who were mainly her relations. I guess there was just an excuse to bring up the subject because of the resemblance.

Sorry if it seemed like we were saying that we only consider lighter skinner people as Indian descendants. We don't. We're well aware of how meaningless appearance is in the question of descent. It's just that in a crowd of people appearances are all you have to go by, and do give, I think, a sense of the proportion of Indian descent that applies to the whole population. Like in Barry's family album about a third of the people who are born each generation look decidedly Indian, so we assume the family's roots must be about a third. That's the way we meant that.