Arrow design

[techteach]

You know, I am not at all comfortable with the topic "Other Blackfoot Theory" on this forum, so as co-moderator, I am starting a new one, in hopes that folks will reply to this one and let the other die out. I know Hana wanted a discussion, but it is so hard to say what you really mean via postings that you inadvertantly step on toes that you might never have meant to. We may still have that discussion - this attempt to change the topic may fail or, as I see that the author of that dissertation Brenda posted has used Kennedy as a source, may resurface, but, at this point, I am trying to change the topic here.
Anyway, I propose to resurrect a topic we never finished, that of designing a logo for our group. We did kind of agree on three arrows, correct? How do we propose to arrange these arrows and what colors? What uses do we plan to make of the logo if we finally get one designed? Or did we finally get it designed?

Cindy

[Linda]

I don't know if anyone ever stepped forward to bring this off. Any volunteers?

[techteach]

Tom? Lynella?

[lynellarainhawk]

Yeah! I was waiting for Tom's next input. I think I was also waiting for a photo of what I think Linda said reminded her of a swastika. (That swirl design for the shield on the ear rings) And I remember Linda telling me Crazy Crows has a good chart about the beads and Royal Blue, red and white were good colors. I also think I recall a talk something about a t-shirt. If these exist I would really love to get one, probably more later. I know my brother would want one as well. But, yeah, I saved my last e-mail message on "the three arrows" because I knew we still had somewhere to go with that and I wanted to be able to just click on it and roll! Tom's putting the arrows in the basket, isn't he, Linda? I was thinking he was anyway! If we're gonna' move this talk to here then I can clean up my e-mail and delete some of those old posts I saved. That's good, my computer really needs to be de-fragged and cleaned up. Yeah! Where's Tom?:D We need his input here. Lynella.

[lynellarainhawk]

Hmmmmm. You know, I was thinking that swirl pattern being a continuation of life symbol and that I wanted to use that for the shield on the ear rings, symbolic of OUR PEOPLE and we are here, continuing and coming back stronger than ever. What if, I'll have to re work the plan a bit, but what if I made the swirl out of three arrows, instead of the design than reminded you of the swastika pattern, Linda. because, if I recall right, you were kind of squeemish on that design anyway. Am I right? What do you guys think? Lynella.:)

[Linda]

Here's the two whirlwinds I was talking about.

http://www.saponitown.com/images/largeGorget2.jpg

http://www.saponitown.com/images/whirlwind.JPG

[lynellarainhawk]

Linda,

Dang, this is fun! The next best thing to being there! I can see why, on the metal one, how it resembles a swastika. I saved it off so I can stare at it. The beaded one is beautiful, but it reminds me more of a pinwheel. Beautiful though. Who did that? They do fabulous work. So, what do you think? Techteach? Tom? Anyone else? Love & light, Lynella.;) P.S. Thank You, by the way Linda.

[techteach]

Linda:
Is the black and white picture from the excavations that occurred in the appropriate areas? I go for as authentic as possible.
However, some of the discussion on the arrows dealt with the symbolism of the group's acceptance of anyone with roots in Siouan culture regardless of their accepted ethnicity today. There was some discussion of joining those arrows also, wasn't there?
I am not sure what can be worked into what you are working on though, Lynella. I have done some craftwork myself but not in this area.
Deb and I both had ancestors who were known as "The Fox." These ancestors were sons of the grandmothers we had who were known as Blackfoot. I always wondered if that would serve as a clue to who the Blackfoot from the east were. Once I went looking for different tribes' clan names and found the Mingo had a clan known as Fox. I found a fox bead at a reenactors camp here last year. I had some idea of building that into something for myself.
A little too busy to do anything right now though.

Cindy

[Linda]

The gorget was found at Gaston, NC at a site attributed to the Occoneechee. I did the beadwork myself, adapted from a whirlwind pattern from out west. Don't remember the tribe offhand. I think it's likely significant there are six spokes to the whirlwind. There are more here than the one I adapted it from.

[Dreaminghawk]

I would thing the colors would be obvious if we wish to truly represent the triracial nature of the 7th generation of our ancesters.
My flag staff has bands of red, black, and white duct tape. From the eagle atop the staff hang 3 feathers..... 1 is white, 1 is red, 1 is black..... they all have red shafts and are hanging from braided strands of red, black and white leather. All the beadwork is also of red, black and white beads. I fly my flag for all my neighbors to see the truth, if they will.

[stacey.23]

Lynella,

Here is a link to "Excavating Occaneechi Town"...
http://www.ibiblio.org/rla/dig/html/index.html
If you click on "Artifacts", and then on "Shell Ornaments", it gives descriptions of pendants, beads, wampum, etc. And, then if you go to "List of Figures", it has pictures of what they are talking about.

Stacey

[techteach]

Was poking around the net looking for a site with several gorgets that I found during the first discussion of deisgns. Found a web site describing the dress of southeast native women at first contact time. It said that the native women wore pearls. Can we fit those in the design? :D:D

Cindy

[lynellarainhawk]

Hey Guys,

WOW! Inindated with info here. This is awsome! Now where's Tom! Linda, your beadwork is absolutely beautiful! I mean it, you are very good! Better than me! You sure you don't want to do this? Black, red and white is a good idea too. Thank you for those links, I will use them probably later on. I gotta' run to the bank real quick and go back to the pharmacy. Techteach, I love pearls, but I'm not sure....well, I was going to put some strands of beads hanging down from the shield part of the earings. Perhaps I could work them in there. Let's see what everyone else thinks. I want them to really represent us, but I don't want them to be too, Gawdy. I think they may work in the strands though. What do you think, Linda? Love & Light to All of you, Lynella.;)

[Tom]

Hello Everyone, well for what it's worth here's my input.
First we have to decide on what item it is we are designing, what media, beads, silver, copper etc.
In the design, we need to look for the answer in the old culture.
Tech posted some info on ceremonies etc that listed 3 arrows being shot skyward; we know 3 arrows are signify the eastern Souians, US.
In the adoption ceremonies the Old Ones said that the use of wampum is incredibly important, the purple was hung on the north wall and white hung in the south wall, this is verticle., place on a horizontal plain and the circle is split in two.
keep in mind that the Quohog shell where wampum originates carries these 2 colors, what this shell meant for our folks isn't to hard to figure out, a rebirth from the under world giving ( a place of no order [atleast to us] ) itself for the communion (existence) of the Yesah, pretty powerful I'd say. The purple could represent either the unknown etc and the white day, light etc, a place of order.
The creation as we know has three levels that we address each day wether we realize it or not (our reality), the skyland , the night land and the Great Beyond.
Three arrows, three levels, 2 outside colors, the white could be a pearl tone, the purple, any tone, I'd say that the arrows could be copper coloured, these elements could be "employed" as needed.
If this was done in a circle the the three concenteric circles could be off set at the horizon points , the top have circle changing to white on the bottom and the white changing to purple.
For the Ladies if this is a medallion it could be suspended form a strand of pearls.
So far that's my input!
I hope all is well for everyone.

[vance hawkins]

Linda those beads remind me of cornels of corn -- looks good enough to eat . . .

vance

[lynellarainhawk]

Tom,

How are you? Good to get your input on all this we need it. You make it all sound so, easy! Is there any way you could sort of maybe make a sketch and mail it to me or something so I get a good idea of what you're seeing in your minds eye? If you can, It's: Lynella Raymond
P.O. Box 1195
Bailey, CO. 80421
or e-mail lynellarainhawk@yahoo.com

I do like the idea of the wampum colors. I think thats great and copper arrows sounds good too. I need more input now from Linda and Techteach and Vance and all. Thank you so much for the info too. It makes me want to go dance around the fire. :D
Love & Light, Lynella.

[lynellarainhawk]

Vance,

:D You have an incredible way of making me hungry! What's up with that? Love & light, Lynella.;)

[techteach]

Lynella:
I was kidding about the pearls. That is why I put two smiling faces there. However, I did find a site that talked about the Southeastern native women wearing pearls. I have a neat pair of earrings made by a Lakota woman made from quills. off-white, and pearl-finished beads, I always get compliments when I wear them.
Should have looked at more pearls when I was in China though. Picked up earrings and one strand but was uncomfortable in the pearl market, so I did not stay there long. I normally wear stuff that if I lose it, I can just say, "Darn," and find another pair or necklace that does not cost too much.
But I was teasing when I posted that comment earlier. Pearls are not usually my style.

Techteach

[lynellarainhawk]

Oh!

:D I was having so much fun I guess I didn't see those! I thought you were serious, so hey, thought I'd try to fit em' in!! I still think Linda should do these. Her work is really beautiful. Even though Vance thinks they're good enough to eat!;) I could see that! Actually, I just got the visual!! Yep, we must be related, cause' I'd eat anything that looked like candy!

You're like me. I wear the same types of jewelry. Ah, darn the clasp fell off! "Why are you staring at me? Do I need to blow my nose? Huh? Oh,....." Hand flies to ear. "Well, I'll be! Yep, You're right. One earlobe is hanging lower than the other one. You'll have that!"

Thank you so very much Cindy. I think you're so wonderful! Love & Light, Lynella.:)

[Tom]

Hello everyone, lets back up and look at this from the begining, we need to define the arrow configuration , the background colours and the shape of the article to carry the insignia.
Perhaps we need to list a set of colour arrangments, arrow configurations , background forms and then take it from there.
We could do it by consensus or just ask LInda and Family to do it and make the choice of accepting her ideas or alteast following a "rule of thumb" for lack of a better term.
All the best.

[lynellarainhawk]

TOM!

How are ya'? All your ideas are great. However Linda wants to do it is fine with me. I still think, for beadwork ear rings She would be the best beader. I mean that sincerely. Her work is beautiful. I was originally talking about a pair of earings, a basic shield design approximately 1 1/4 inches in diameter to hang from the ear wire so it dangles. From the shield have Tassles that hang down off the shield maybe 5 of them, but I think it should be a number with purpose, meaning to us. Have these tassles start The first one approx. 1 1/2 inches the next a little longer, the third a little longer, etc. then progressively go back to the 1 1/2 inch length. So it would look like.....One of these smiley faces with a pointed beard! But, of coarse, no smiley face. The shield design I was thinking the swirl signifying the continuation of life. To signify that we ARE and ALWAYS WILL BE. Then you guys were talking about the arrows and I got to thinking, perhaps the swirl could be made of 3 arrows. Another thought was perhaps the tassles could be the 3 arrows and put something else on the shield part. I loved your idea of the wampum colors. Something like the shade of the purple wampum for the shield and a single row of decorative white around the outer edge with thw Arrows being copper colored. The tassles, if they aren't the arrows themselves, the same purple wampum color with decorative white on the ends. BUT, that's just my brain. I want to hear from everyone else what they want or think or just leave it up to Linda and if she wants to leave it up to you then cool:cool: SO, I AGREE WITH YOU!:D Love & Light, Lynella.

[lynellarainhawk]

And now,

I think I just hurt myself. The phone rang and I ran to get it before the answering machine picked up. As I darted into the kitchen, turning the corner from the hallway, I BIFFED IT BIG TIME! landed on my right knee, I had put my left arm out to catch myself by grabbing the fridge-nope, I pulled something in there, feels like a sprain in my shoulder and only my middle finger works, and my back went out right in the middle. I AM SUCH A CLUTS? CLUTZ? Well, as you can see my brain doesn't work either. Atleast I can use this finger when Glenn gets home to tell him thank you for calling when I was at the other end of the house..... :D I have the flu so I wasn't real with it anyway! I guess I'll go throw my back against the doorframe and see if I can make it pop. It's not the first time, far from my heart, so it won't kill me. I was going to say again, I really think Linda's beadwork would be much lovelyer than mine. And suggest also that we diside on a design that we can incorporate on T-shirts, mugs, hair clips, hat bands, etc. Love & Light, Lynella.;)

[vance hawkins]

I really don't have much input. The color "black" might be good to use since the people were called "Blackfoot". But beyond that I'm useless.

vance

[lynellarainhawk]

:D There's not a useless hair on your head!:D

[Tom]

Hey Vance I was waiting for you to reply, you know you don't need an invitiation to post, I would like to hear what you think about this,.

[vance hawkins]

Tom, here are my thoughts.

I wanna know the significance of the 3 arrows. I don't think that any Indians east of the Appalachians ever used bow and arrow after about the year 1700. Is that right?

First, my idea of these people stems from those that fled to the Appalachians about 1770s to the 1790s. They'd have been Christian and most mixed blood. They'd have been hunters, blacksmiths, miners, traders and farmers. They could repair a broken wagon wheel, or build a simple raft to go down stream in a couple of hours. If hungry they could kill a cotton tail in half an hour and have it skinned and boiling in a pot a half hour after that. It'd take the same time to catch a couple of catfish for dinner.

Were this my baby, I'd have a picture of a man and a woman. The man would have a tomahawk (for firewood) and knife (for skinning and preparing food mostly) around his waiste and be carryin' one of those Kentucky long rifles (to shoot dinner) that were so famous. He's be mixed blood, and also be carrying a a skinned cottontal with a couple of catfish around his waiste or slung over his shoulder. The woman near him would be carrying a homemade bark basket that would have some corn and summer crooked necked yellow squash in it. Maybe some seasonal blackberries or nuts of some sort. And a dog would warn them of anyone sneeking up on them -- have to have a dog with them.

Clothing would be same as what everyone else wore on the frontier.

vance

[lynellarainhawk]

Vance,

That gave me a vision of the Mountain Man Rendezvous they have up here in South Park every summer. I think it's a lovely picture. I guess I never thought about it in such depth as you have. :) :) :) Love & Light, Lynella.

[Tom]

Hey Vance well you are right, our folks probably got caught up really early.
It's hard to know what the three arrow are getting at, but I think that it's safe to go with it. When the bow died out not sure maybe some where some of our mountain folks still used them until pretty late.
SO much more research needs to be done , we may never have all of the answers in our life times. But this is a really good start.
Thanks for your post.

[vance hawkins]

Lynella, I really only thought of that after Tom asked for my opinion. But I was thinking of some of the seals of the socalled "Five Civilized tribes".

I was thinking an Indians that managed to survive East of the Appalachians were the "original" socalled "Civilized Indians". Their only options were i.] be absorbed into a still thriving tribe, ii.] be absorbed into White culture, or iii.] be exterminated. I think our ancestors are mostly from those that chose (actually were forced to choose) assimilation, but kept memories of an earlier time in their family stories, and often lived in regions of the country where you would find both Whites and Indians, with themselves being able to go back and forth between the 2 communities at will, but never fitting into either completely.

I don't know anything about these "mountain men" -- but perhaps an earlier Eastern, woodland, mixed-blood version of them is the earliest discovery of some of our ancestors that we will ever be able to successfully document.

vance

[vance hawkins]

Thanks Tom,

There are probably a great many designs that are gonna work perfectly fine. :)

Vance

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Our people took to the mountains because they knew there they would have shelter, food, and be free. The mountain was a beautiful place with running water and all the food they would need. Today many places in the mountains remain untouched and beautiful.

As for the bow and arrow. In my History of the Spencer Family it tells of James Spencer born 1784 along the Greenbrier River. At age 12 his father and a group of men went on a hunt. James was left in the camp to look after things. When the men returned to camp empty handed they found young James skinning a fine deer that he had killed earlier that day with his "bow and arrow". That would make it 1796.

Brenda

[lynellarainhawk]

Vance,

Thank you. The way you were just talking about being assimilated and going back and forth between the two, not really fitting in, sounds like me! And I know we'll have a heck of a time pulling out the old image and shining it up to look like it did way back when, will be pretty close to impossible, so I'm, thinking if we can have bits of what we were and weave them into the threads of a new...."quilt" that represents everything our ancestors went through, who THEY were and who WE are then perhaps if there's another realm of being in the afterlife then they can finally sigh and smile and say, "O.k, not what it was, but look how hard they're trying." And so if it's goofy, or smarmy, or polly anna,:) Well that's me!:) But I do understand what you're saying I think and I appreciate where you're coming from.;) I want to make sure you know I really mean that and I have never pushed aside any of your thoughts or feelings on any matter. You're a very intelligent and prominant piece of our community and your input means the world to me for that reason and just because I really like you a lot!:) :) AND DON'T YOU FORGET IT!!:D
Bill is awsome for his work and you are awsome for yours, as is Tom and Techteach and Linda and Brenda and everyone who comes here with even a hint of input. I look up to you Vance!
:) I guess I'm mushied out, now I have ta' go to a silly little Christmas Party down at the cafe'. The kids are relying on me to bring their shrimp cocktail! And they're going to have a parade of lights! They've dressed their cars up with Christmas lights charged off the batteries of their cars and boy, how long is the main street of Bailey......800 yards? They're so excited! I know, P.O.S, or what ever it is, P.S.T? S.O.T? Love & Light, Lynella.:D

[lynellarainhawk]

Brenda,

Thank you, that's awsome. I can just see the little guy sitting there proud as proud can be that the grown guys are just as proud of him because they're half starved! That's a good story. I like it. Love & Light, Lynella.:)

[techteach]

When we first talked of this, I imagined something like the symbol on the dollar bill, with the clenched arrows. Doesn't that come from the Six Nations?
For our purpose, something similar would represent the unity of the three ethnicities that participate on this forum.

Techteach

[vance hawkins]

Techteach -- I wasn't here when this topic was first brought up, so I was hesitant to speak up until Tom asked me to. I'm sure it'll be great however it turns out.

Brenda -- I read American State Papers, Indian Affairs part 1 (covering from about 1785 to 1800, more or less) from beginning to end, in all over 800 pages. I've started on vol. 2, covering from about 1800 to 1820 or so (I forget the exact years). From about 1774 or thereabout Dragging Canoe, McGilvray (Creek Chief) and others called "Northwards Indians" in htose papers the most of whom were Shawnee, but others were included in these "Northwards" also. Many of these Indians lived in the Chickamauga towns on the Tennessee River near present day Chattanooga, Tn. Most of the "Northwards" were in Ohio, tho, it seems. But before the Chickamauga went to war they always went down to Pensacola, Fla for ammunition. Their wars lasted until they ran out of ammunition, then they'd get whipped and sign a treaty for peace, always losing land with each treaty. These Cherokee wars lasted until 1794. That same year the Shawnee and their allies (Miami, Kickapoo, Lenape, Winebago, Sac & Fox, Wea and others) signed the Greenville Treaty that same year, ending hostilities. There was a small fraction of the Creek (Red Sticks) that had an uprising 20 years later.

But in all these wars ending in 1794, these Indians native to the region between the Appalachians and Mississippi River used rifles, often as advanced as those the Europeans used.

Thanks Brenda, for that story -- I liked it very much. It shows that some people had not forgotten the earlier technology by that late a timeframe.

Lynella, thanks for yor comments -- they are greatly appreciated.

vance

[techteach]

Vance:
I hope you did not think I was criticizing your suggestion. In fact, I have wondered, that since some have been told that the term "Blackfoot" arose from wearing black beaver moccasins, if that ought not be included. I have tended to think that this might not be true about the moccasins, since another tribe, (Pottawatamie??? - memory faulty) was named for their type of moccasin. This would give a nod to your idea, since those going west would have adopted some of the frontier habits.

Techteach

[lynellarainhawk]

Techteach,

:) I think that's a good idea! And boy, I love my moccasins, all 6 pairs! Love & Light, Lynella.

[techteach]

Oops, I said that wrong, I think. I believe that the story about moccasins might be true, since this is the case with another tribe.

Techteach

[vance hawkins]

Techteach --

Don't worry about that.

What have you heard about black beaver moccasins? That sounds like an interesting idea.

vance

[techteach]

Vance:
I got it from this web site. Search for black moccasin.

Techteach

[vance hawkins]

Below is interesting trivia --

speaking of "Black Beaver" moccasins --

The link below mentions a Delaware Indian named 'Black Beaver" -- some of the locations it describes I know well -- the Washita River, the Arbuckles, North Fork o' the Red (just 10 or 15 miles from where I live) et cetera. They aren't too far away and are in the Old Chickasaw Nation not far from where my great grandparents lived in the late 1880s. Lynella, you mentioned somehting about Mountain Men -- this "Black Beaver" might pass as an Indian Mountain Man from what it says about him. From the photo of him, he sure reminds me of what dad looked like.

http://www.chickasawhistory.com/FTA1.htm

The winter of 1850 was spent in Camp Arbuckle, located as above stated, and about a mile south of the river. The soldiers (Company D of the Fifth Infantry) lived in their tents until December, but were meanwhile engaged in erecting rude cabin barracks, with puncheon floors, and chimneys of the same material, but daubed with clay. The main barracks was a long house two hundred feet by twenty-five, with bunks built in. Four separate huts were built for the officers. One of these cabins was occupied by Captain Marcy and his wife. Among the officers was Lieutenant Joseph Updegraff, who afterwards rose to the rank of major, and who is referred to in one of General Marcy’s delightful "Border Reminiscences" as "General Up-to-Snuff." Nearly all the work of construction was done by the soldiers with the aid of a few carpenters.

The winter passed without many incidents of note. Once they were visited by a band of wild Indians. One of the chiefs was very much pleased with Mrs. Marcy, and made a proposition to the Captain for an exchange of wives, to his great amusement. There was an abundance of game in the country at this time, and the soldiers were kept well supplied by Captain Marcy and Dr. Glisan. The bill of fare for Christmas dinner, 1850, would sound tempting to any epicure of today. It included such items as bear meat, buffalo tongue, venison, prairie hen, wild turkey, goose, duck, quail and pigeon. A winter sport in time of idleness was horse racing, using as steeds the half-wild ponies so plentiful on the plains.

A band of Delaware Indians under the leadership of the famous guide, Black Beaver, lived in the vicinity. These Indians took possession of the old camp buildings when the troops left for the permanent fort the following spring. Black Beaver had trapped and hunted on all the important streams in the West, even to the headwaters of the Columbia, and his services as a guide were much in demand. He had accompanied Captain Marcy on the trip to California, and the latter had always found the Delaware to be "brave, reliable and competent." Like many Indians - and some white men - Black Beaver was rather proud of his travels and his superior knowledge. On one occasion, in conversation with a Comanche from the plains, Black Beaver was telling some of the remarkable things he had seen and heard. Captain Marcy, who happened to be present, suggested that he tell the Comanche about the recently invented telegraph--how a man in New York could stand at one end of a wire, tap it a few times, and ask his friend in New Orleans what he had eaten for breakfast; and that in a few minutes back would come the answer, "Ham and eggs." This was too much for the credulity of Black Beaver, who said to Marcy, "I 'spect you try to fool me now, Captain; maybe so you lie."

The move to the new location was made in April 1851. Already almost every officer and man in the company had been ill with malarial fever, which gave an added reason for the change. Previous to evacuating Camp Arbuckle, Lieutenant Updegraff and Dr. Glisan went down and made a careful report on the topography of the proposed site, especially from the standpoint of sanitation and health. The location was carefully chosen on the slopes of the Arbuckle Mountains (these were so named from the fort), at an elevation of five hundred feet above the Washita River, and four miles from that stream, near Wild Horse Creek. A never failing water supply was furnished by a limpid spring that gushed from the mountain side with power enough to run a mill, Dr. Glisan said. This spring still flows from the mountains, but like so many others, has lost much of its volume since the forests have been cut away and the fields reduced to cultivation. The fort received its name from the veteran General Matthew Arbuckle, who had recently died of the cholera at Fort Smith.

here's his picture --

http://www.chickasawhistory.com/Beaver.htm

[lynellarainhawk]

Vance,

:cool: That is way awsome! He looks familiar! What a cool story that is! You sure are good at finding this stuff!:D He really does look familiar though??????? Thank you so much, Vance. Love & Light, Lynella.

[techteach]

V & L
He looks familiar to me too. He looks like he could be my relative.

Techteach

PS: Lynella - check out the Ricketts again posting. I posted stuff for you and Kerry.

[lynellarainhawk]

Techteach,

Oh, thank you! I'll check it right now. Love ya', Lynella.:)

[vance hawkins]

There a couple of observations I'd like to mention.

First, I remember in one old story dad told about his ancestors when they lived in the Chickasaw Nation and he mentioned the phrase "Wild Indians". I once sent a copy of dad's family story to a Chickasaw historian and asked about that phrase "Wild Indians" -- and I got the reply that it was a common term and was used to distinguish the "Civilized Indians" -- meaning more westernized or progressive -- from those living as they always had. This article used the term "Wild Indians".

The second observation, and I think I mentioned it before, is that there is a federally recognized Delaware tribe called "Delaware Tribe of Western Oklahoma" and its headquarters is in Adadarko, Oklahoma. I think I mentioned once I had no idea how Deleware ended up in Western Oklahoma, a woodlands people living in the Plains. Well this "Black Beaver" fellow was with a band of Delaware in Western Oklahoma in about 1850. So I bet his descendants were some of those who make up that Delaware Tribe up in Anadarko, Caddo County, Oklahoma.

So those people wondered and migrated from the East Coast all the way to the Southern Plains and all that time, they managed to survive and maintained their tribal structure, language, and culture. I think that is a tribute to their desire to survive and maintain their identity as a race of men.

vance

[lynellarainhawk]

Vance,

Oh absolutely! All that they went through and it didn't stop em'. That's really cool. I wanted to say something here, but the words are stuck in my pea brain. Ah yes, the "Wild Indian " term. I just get poo-ey when it comes to labels! Does anyone else? I think "traditional ways" verses something like "Modern" or something. I just never liked the way the older (Way older) like Cival war erra up to 1900's people referred to Native Americans in most anything I've read. BUT WE ARE STILL DISCUSSING ARROWS, RIGHT?:D I have sworn to behave and not stray too far off track anywhere. So feel free to remind me to stick to my word on that!;) Love & Light, Lynella.

[Felicia]

ALL THE ARROWS ARE POINTING INWARD TOWARD THE CIRCLE, TO ME THIS IS SIGNIFICANT (PURPOSEFUL AND VERY MEANINGFUL).

THEORY #1 - THEY WOULD GATHER AROUND AND THE INNER CIRCLE WOULD COMPROMISE THE MOST IMPORTANT MEMBERS.
THEORY #2 - THEY USED ARROWS TO SIGNIFY AS A PEOPLE WHO THEY ARE IN KEEPING WITH TRADITION AND (3) REPRESENTS...BIRTH, LIFE AND, DEATH. ALSO, (6) COULD MEAN ALL THE TRIBES IN THE AREA LIKE OCCONEECHEE, SAPONI, CATAWBA, TUTELO, ENO, BLACKFOOT.

ANY THOUGHTS????

-FELICIA

[Bill Childs]

I was thinking that the "Three Arrows" was the recognition symbol agreed upon between the colonial govt and the Occaneechee, Saponi & Tutelo group at about the time when the latter group lived on the Three Islands. Maybe it was later at Christanna. It's somewhere on the forum.

[techteach]

Felicia:
I am confused. Are you suggesting using three arrows pointing inwards as the design?

Techteach

[lynellarainhawk]

Felicia,

I like your theories.:) Thank you for speaking up. I think this is very important and should be specifically representative of everything we stand for, including and most importantly our ancestors and our children.

Bill,

Thank you for taking the time to throw in that info. We need to hear from as many as possible. I feel it is important to achieving a community goal. I'll have to look into this more deeply. I appreciate this a whole bunch!

Techteach,

Clarification is always a good idea. I would like to get deeper insight into what Felicia is pointing out here. It is so necessary.:)
So, Felicia, when you have a chance please tell us more. We've been waiting a while on this for a lot of input. Waiting a little longer will be worth it!;) Love & Light, Lynella.

[lynellarainhawk]

Bill,

I looked that up, THANK YOU!;) It is very interesting. That was something I didn't know. And it is a good idea. Although, If this was something the General Assembly of Virginia issued and given that the NDN's were told, if they weren't tatooed with this insignia they would be shot. Is something that was shoved down our throats really going to signify what this is all about? I don't know, just a question I had to ask. I still like the whole Three Arrows idea. Thank you for this information, it's important. And gives us another thing to think about with this project.:) Love & Light, Lynella.

[Felicia]

I had noticed that all of the arrows are pointing towards the center and, that they are in sections/rows. This has to mean something. I thought that perhaps this was patterned according to place in tribe (chief...medicine...etc) from the center which represents perhaps the great spirit and that we are all outside of this circle of life (picture a campfire here) and the people that sit/stand/dance the closest to this hold the important positions and then, everyone would be on the outer circle.
Hope this helps.

Love to All,

-Felicia

[techteach]

Felicia:
I am sorry to be so dense, but what are you looking at? What picture are you describing that has the arrows pointing toward the middle? Are you referring to the gorget picture that Linda posted on the first page of this discussion?
I do like your idea for the design. I would go on to say that I believe that the colors ought to be red, black and white, signifiying the ethnicity of the members of this forum.

Cindy

[lynellarainhawk]

Felicia and Techteach,

Thank you for coming back in on this Felicia. I too, was wondering what picture you've seen and was about to re-check on everything to see what I missed. So, thank you Cindy for adding that too. You know I can be as dense as a four corner post!;) I am very up on the Arrows, have been since the beginning, I just want to make sure we present them in a respectful, authoritative and enlightening manner. Linda's original color ideas I think were red, white and royal blue which, like your Red, Black and White sound fine to me. I think finally choosing the colors will be the easy part. Linda wanted to use the colors more originally Siouan, I believe. And Tom's idea of the wampum colors and copper, I love also. So, :) what colors would you like to see Felicia? I'll go with what ever everyone else desides on. I'm easy:o well:o that's not to say I'm "easy!":o I definately want to think more about the design I would like for Tom and Linda to pipe up again, see if they have any changes they've thought of. Of course I respect everyone's take on this. I also still think Linda does such beautiful beadwork, she would be perfect for this. I know she is very busy though and understand that completely. Well, I've babbled enough spew for now!:) Love & Light, Lynella.

[Felicia]

Yes, I was talking about the picture that Linda showed of the whirlwind pattern (her beautiful work) and the other black & white photo. This photo of the old design is what I was referring too. I looked at it then, I really started looking and thinking about what it means and, that's when I noticed the arrows which are pointing towards the center and, how they appear to me as if they are in an hierarchy.
-What do you think?

P.S. - Hope this description helps out more, sorry for confusion.


-Love, Felicia

[techteach]

Felicia:
That's what I thought you were referring to. That is what I based my remarks on, that I like your ideas. Are you artistic? Do you want to sketch out your concept?

Techteach

[lynellarainhawk]

Felicia,

Ooh, yes, do you want to?:) I think that would be a great idea. A visual aid, yeah, I like it Techteach!;) Lynella.

[Felicia]

Drawing design should be cool for me but, don't expect too much :D . I also like to paint too when the feeling hits me. Linda and I do not live that far away so, I could sketch and she could scan it for us. If we like then, perhaps she'll bead. She is the sewing lady not I, you should see her go :D . If I have a picture of this perhaps I could paint it also.
Thanks for the vote of confidence ladies (I'll DEFINITELY put you into my prayers tonight :D :D )!!!!!

Lots of Love, Felicia

[lynellarainhawk]

Felicia,

;) That would be great if you could do that, and if Linda could! That would be awsome!:) Love & Light, Lynella.

[Linda]

Tom, how confident are you that the use of wampum was original to the Tutelo in their homelands, or could it be an adaptation following their adoption by the Cayuga?

Didn't we say that Sara was wearing wampum?

[Linda]

Tom, how confident are you that the use of wampum was original to the Tutelo in their homelands, or could it be an adaptation since following their adoption by the Cayuga?

Didn't we say that Sara was wearing wampum?

[Tom]

Hello, well no there's a great question!
I'd have to say pretty sure that the Tutelo used wampum, and probably Sara had some with her on her journey home! Some how I think that the use of wampum goes back to the sacred prior to its secular use. The use of color and the directional asignments suggest that, atleast to me!
I have read that the Catawbas did use wampuma and the Cherokee, and Creeks aswell, according to all the NC archaeological reports it was well established in the eastern parts of NC and there is a "wampum" that is circualr one bead shell the other a type of flat black stone, these are disc beads ofcourse.
I'd say that it's highly probable that the Eastern Souian folks knew it well.
Most likely wampum beads pre-date wapum belts, the League of Six Nations formed somewhere in the mid 1500's or so, and a quick study would establish the use of these beads prior to that. Interesting dates since the Spaniards were just showing up. S.O.P!!!
I'd say yes that the Tutelo folks had wampum!

[lynellarainhawk]

This is all so fascinating. I wish my printer hadn't just ran out of ink. I like to use this stuff as bedside reading! Linda, are you thinking about the wampum colors? Love & Light, Lynella.

[Felicia]

Pequot War in 1637 - They had a (fort) fortified village in Connecticut. English soldiers and other allies from other tribes surrounded them and massacred more than 600 residents.
***There is a picture that was drawn by an English artist (rare books division, NY public library, astor, lenox and tilden foundations) that shows what this looked like, and it looks eerily similiar to arrow design. Concidence or what?

I wish I had a scanner, sorry!

[techteach]

Felicia:
Do you mean this picture? http://bc.barnard.columbia.edu/~rmccaugh/earlyAC/images/pequots.html

If so, you are right. It is very similar.


Techteach

[lynellarainhawk]

Yep! I think that's the one she means. I looked at it early this morning. Hmmmmmm. It is a bit odd.;) Love & Light, Lynella.

[Felicia]

Yes, this is the picture!!!!
Does anyone think this is eerie, strange, similar, concidence???
Perhaps similar meaning???
I would like to know what everyone thinks, on this issue!!!

Thanks:)

[lynellarainhawk]

Well, in some ways it seams similar, which makes it a bit odd. But in lots of ways it really doesn't seem so similar. Is this a good thing, or a bad thing, or????:) Love & Light, Lynella.

[techteach]

When I went looking for arrow designs based on a gorget that I saw and liked in the Chicago Art Museum in January, I found that a Celtic design that was similar. Both were similar to this.

Techteach

[lynellarainhawk]

Techteach,

Oh, that's interesting too. I'll be glad when we can all deside on something specific. I get too darned impatient sometimes!:) Love & Light, Lynella.

[techteach]

I wish someone would just make an example and throw it out for consideration.

Tech

[lynellarainhawk]

:D Yeah!:p

[techteach]

Go for it, Lynella!

Tech

[lynellarainhawk]

ME?:D Actually I was thinking about it. But thinking and doing are two different things for me sometimes! I'll try to come up with something and then I'll mail it snail mail to Linda and she can post it or whatever. I don't know how to scan things!:o Love & Light, Lynella.

[techteach]

Just like a photocopy if you have a scanner. Put the picture in face-down and hit the scan feature in the software. It does its thing and you have a picture. Then you send the file via email as an attachment. You cannot post it here. Linda is the only one with the ability to post pix, at least I have tried several times with no luck.

Tech

[lynellarainhawk]

Well Thank you!:) You make it sound so easy! Is it really that easy? I'll have to give it a try.;) Love & Light, Lynella.

[rosebudsaponi]

Linda
Was that from the dig in the Roanoke Lake (located in Northampton, near town of Gaston) or in Gaston township itself? I know that they've dug the Roanoke Lake but I didn't know of anything going on in Gaston. For those of you who don't know, Gaston is my family's stomping ground.

[lynellarainhawk]

Yes, I knew that and then I saw the name Poythres (Very Sorry If I Misspelled That) on one of the road names the other day when i was looking at maps. That's so awsome! I've been trying to spend some time looking into the history of that area for Felicia, but she's right. It's not easy to find. Why is that?:) Love & Light, Lynella.

[Tom]

Well I must be failling to make the grade.
This is an American Euro painting of a northern war with little to do with the Yesah people, out of context on all sides wrong place wrong people.
Perhaps I did not say earlier we need a post contact pattern that is based on the original Yesah peoples designs.
Tech posted earlier an Iroquoian ceremony that had Souian (Yesah?) elements to it, during this ceremony volleys of arrows were shot 3 times towards the Sun.
Lets keep it simple just the configuration of the arrows in black and white and then we can color the rest the way each member wants.!

[lynellarainhawk]

OH TOM,

I'm so glad you're here!:) How the heck are ya?;) I think that is the most wonderful and best idea yet! YES, LET'S DO THAT!!!:D I think it is a perfect idea. Way, cool!:cool: Thank You Tom. Love & Light, Lynella.

[techteach]

I did?
Can you sketch what you mean, Tom and have it posted?

Tech

[Tom]

Hello, there's so many variations to this we are all going to have to do our part, who we include and how.
I see my Cousin Barb had done a posting on tattoos, and her family that was tatooed is my family members aswell. Our Great Grand mothers family had members with tattoos on thier faces. I hope Barb does post again she has sufered a great loss recently.
Anyway, the arrow pattern has to be based on historical correctness that is in keeping with what we know, look at the old paintings discussed earlier and you'll see images of what Iam refereing to.
Please use 3 arrows and place them in a configuration that relates to us all!
I'll see what I can get done and post it this week, Iam very sick and only out of bed for short times.
Please pray for Cousin Barbs hard times to be eased.
All the best, Tom

[lynellarainhawk]

Tom,

I will most certainly pray for Barb and also for you to get well fast. Flu? I know it's been going around. You drink lots of fluids! I'm worried now about both of you.

Yes, I agree with your description of how this project should be, when you are well enough, do give me something to look at. In the mean time I'll try to find these pictures you're referring to.

God Bless You and Barb. Love & Light, Lynella.

[techteach]

I wanted, when we first discussed this, to tie them together at the bottom, like the Iroquois feather symbol on the quarter. At least, I think it is the quarter. And add a red feather to represent everyone of this forum.

Tech

[lynellarainhawk]

Tech.,

Howdy! I need to see what you two are refering to. Cause' I'm totally clueless. I let Glenn use the computer this morning. So I am just now getting going on stuff! Love & Light, Lynella.

[stacey.23]

Have you seen this insignia?
http://www.sappony.org/governance_council.htm

If you hold your cursor over the picture, it tells what each item represents, which says...

"The stars represent strong ties to faith."

"The three arrows are the long-standing tribal symbol of the Sappony and are represented by the three arrowheads."

"The three main crops represent our subsistence while in High Plains with tobacco occupying a central role."

"The seven feathers bound together represent the seven close-knit families of High Plains."

Stacey

[lynellarainhawk]

Stacey,

that's interesting I hadn't seen that yet. Of coarse my cursor wouldn't make anything cool happen but cool consept!

[lynellarainhawk]

Well, just for giggles I'm going to embroider a patch, just a small one and see how it comes out. It will have the arrows over the small Medicine wheel with the whirlwind design around the border.

I got out my beads this morning and I couldn't see them let alone hold on to the darn needle and deal with those tiny little beads. So, tomorrow after my pre-op check and ultrasound, I'll have Glenn stop at hobby lobby so I can get more embroidery floss.

Love & Light, Lynella.;)

[techteach]

L
Preop? What's this? Should you be messing with this? Or is it something to do? I finished the final chapter to my dissertation following surgery. Only time I could get people to leave me alone.
Take care and keep us informed.

Tech

[lynellarainhawk]

Cindy,

Oh, it's a nothin', I promiss! Yeah, the embroidery is just a something to do.;) I want a small patch for my vest. I'll take a photo & e-mail it to ya'. I'll fill ya' in on the other later, after I get those tests. Love & Light, Lynella.:)

[lynellarainhawk]

Techteach,

:) Well now that THAT is over! Maybe I can get off my duff & get to that embroidery! All went well, and thank you bunches! Lynella.

[techteach]

Glad it went well. Send pix of the embroidered item when you get it done.

Techteach

[dovelady]

I see this is an old thread but I've been reading as many old posts as possible to try to understand what is going on here.

If I understand right, you are trying to create a design to represent something. Is it this group here at Saponitown? or is it the Saponi as a whole or? I'm still very cofused about just what y'all are trying to do here.

Thanks for your patience and understanding to one who has come pretty late in this conversation and is trying to wade through the cyber-fog to understand what is exactly happening here.

[techteach]

Barb and other newbies to this forum:

We left this design and used another design. If you search for probably "gorget" and certainly "earrings," you will find the design that was settled on. You can still send for the gorget; it is carved in shell and beautiful. I got the earrings for Christmas from the hubby.

Techteach

[dovelady]

thanks techteach.. I'll go take a look

[Tom]

refreshing