More Blackfoot Theory [Archive]

Bill Childs

12-01-2004, 10:08 PM

This link is a handout by Mike Nassau, extolling Jean Bible as the "most thoroughal" study of Melungeons. The problem lies in Jean Bible having performed her study in the (what?) 1880s,
nearly 70 years after the people this term originally was applied to had left the area (admittedly, some descendants may have yet been on Newman's Ridge). Nassau's use of Bible as an 'appeal to authority" on which to base his conclusions should be rejected out of hand.
In the strickest sense, I have a problem with the contemporary "Melungeon Movement", in that there are too many assertions (lacking any proof) and Dr. Jones' DNA "study" claims results which contradict DNA researchers proven threshold of resolution of origins., i.e., the "Turkish" genes claim. It doesn't wash.
That the use of the term "Melungeon" has evolved to include any backward, mixed-race people is a "stolen concept" deserving only contempt - but that's only my opinion :)

Hana

12-02-2004, 11:49 AM

Hey, said I thought it was an interesting read, not that i was a disciple!

(As someone of whom half of her heritage could likely be described as 'any backwater mixed-race people' I figure we can use all the help we can get -- and if calling onesself Melungeon or Metis leads to civic pride... seriously, I've always preferred to myself as half 'po' white trash' (mostly because i like the look on people's faces when I say it) but that's just me.)

The parts that interested me most were the DNA part -- without knowing enough about the subject to know how scientifically accurate it is -- and the part about flat feet possibly meaning african heritage rather than native-american. (My mother and I have flat feet and her father told her it was a sign of her indian heritage along with our shovel teeth, double-jointed and a few other things. Of course Grandpa was pretty far removed from any heritage and just passed down what he was told by folks who were keeping things pretty secret.)

Anyway, if you want to refer me to some good discussions on these topics, I'd be grateful. :cool:

techteach

12-02-2004, 01:47 PM

Hana,
When you first posted this (I had already read these two items.), I did not know what to say. I guess that I say this. Any article that says "probably" should be looked at critically. Even to say that the folks calling themselves Blackfoot and who are from the east being Tutelo and/or Saponi is still an hypothesis.
Have any of you who are into linguistics tried those names that were posted yesterday, to determine if they seem Tutelo?

Techteach

Tom

12-02-2004, 03:04 PM

For what it's worth, I still have problems with other people labeling me, I know who I am and I know from what my family has gone through if it was possible we would have just walked away from the "Indian thing'. However we are here and we're not leaving.
Theories are fine but look at the (pardon me fro saying) **** the world has put us through , it would just have been easier to say, screw it!

techteach

12-02-2004, 03:24 PM

Tom:
I hope I am not misunderstanding you, but I think you might have misunderstood me. I don't deny the "Indian thing." My reference is to what tribe were the Blackfoot from VA, not that they were not Indian. I accept my Blackfoot grandmother as Indian. In fact, I feel some obligation/pride to openly claim my mixed background, since my ggrandparents moved away from their Indian relatives to hide it and since my ggrandmother wouldn't even sit in the same room with her mother-in-law who looks Indian. Heck, I look like her Indian mother-in-law. I am not going to say "screw it" either.
Hope I haven't misunderstood you or offended you. That was what caused me not to immediately reply to Hana's posting. I waited to see responses from others.
How much snow do you have now? We got a few inches earlier this week. Put out my Internet satellite for an entire day until the snow melted off. I wish I still had cable but none is strung to our new house.

Cindy

vance hawkins

12-02-2004, 03:43 PM

Nevil Wayland was the Church Clerk that was cited by Jack Goins as being the first person to write the word "Melungin" in the minutes of Stoney Creek Primitive Baptist Church. Nevil was a brother to my direct ancestor, William Wayland. Now I have never said my ancestors were "Melungeon's", but I have said maybe they were. We have no family story about that term -- I'd never heard of it until I got a computer and started researching, altho since my relative was the first to write it -- my ancestors had heard the term and knew of it, it just didn't get passed down to us.

But we DO have a family story that those ancestors were Indian. A picture of Nevil Wayland's son is somewhere on this forum (Jonathan Wayland), cousin of my direct ancestor Sarah Wayland Richey. I also have a picture of Jeffrey Hoten Richey (1851-1926), my great grandpa -- whose mother was Sarah Ann Wayland, that cousin of Jonathan I just mentioned. Jeff also looks Indian (photo isn't posted but 2 of hs sons are somewhere, 2 of grandma's brothers -- they also look full blood or nearly so, Indian).

I personally "think" the Melungeons were Christianized Indians, period and the rest is nonsense . . . all that stuff about Turks or Jews or Portuguese -- I might be wrong tho. :) and it won't be the first time . . .

vance

Tom

12-02-2004, 04:21 PM

Hey Cindy and Vance, no there's no issues here, if I do have a problem it's with the sites that label us or surmise that our familiy is hiding black blood , it's starts to get rather small when outsiders start coming up with theories that pretain to us and not them.
So far we are very lucky occasionally it has snowed but no staying, cold tho' for most folks standards.
I hope all is well with everyone.

Hana

12-02-2004, 04:59 PM

OUchy! Didn't mean to stir things up -- I know a lot of what they guy has to say is... well, annoying. That's why I referred to the article as musings, rather than anything more serious.

Should have been more careful to explain where i was trying to head by posting this. Was in too much of a hurry that day, and meant to come back later. Will clarify as best I can.

There were some certain pieces of what he wrote I found interesting -- and he pulls together a lot of other people's work in one place -- I wasn't so much interested in his overall spin on things, or even his accuracy on specifics (for instance, I'm pretty sure that stuff about how Ashkenazi Jews came to be would fall under the category of fairy tale, and he writes as if it's an accepted absolute truth), I guess what I wondered about would fall under four categories:

1. Does anyone think there is significance to 'blackfoot' versus 'blackfeet?' I know my family was specific and said blackfoot.

2. Does anyone know about that 'Blackfoot-Cherokee' connection being somehow significant? Could there have been, say, a specific clan of Eastern Cherokee, who rather than being Bird clan, were something that could translate as Blackfoot clan? Have others seen a lot of people who call themselves both.

3. physical 'signs' of indian versus, say, african, heritage. (ie. are flat feet a native-american or black trait, typically. I've heard both, then read that native-americans more typically have high arches. And yes, I know this won't pertain to all or even most. Are shovel teeth meaningful, or no?

4. How about Dna evidence? What's the authoritative view at this point? My brother is thinking about doing one of those dna thingys that are supposed to tell you what percentage of various ethicities you're supposed to be. Opinions on whether those tests are meaningful or useful at all? (The sites sure look scientific but....)

Hana

12-02-2004, 05:12 PM

The other reason I got interested in this is that, assuming flatfeet mean anything, it's the second clue I've found that my mother's family could be hiding a little black ancestry in addition to NDN. (The first clue is that my racist old coot of a great-grandfather was very surprisingly the only person in his small Texas town to hire a black man in a responsible position. Then I found that the I have a distant relative by marriage with the same unusual name as the man g-grandpa hired. Which made me go 'hmmm....')

Bill Childs

12-02-2004, 07:52 PM

Go back and re-read my previous post and imagine I am speaking in a conversational tone of voice in an open discussion.
Of course it is my opinion, as everyone elso voices theirs as everyone has a right to do.
I was critiqing the "authority" Nassau cited as the "proof" in his article, not what anyone here said.
"Melungeon" was a term used around the 1810s or so by Whites, as a perjorative term for the people living on (& probably around) Newman's Ridge, Tenn., and it was still a White put-down by the time Jean Bible did her interviews in the 1880s. There is no record of the Newman's Ridge people ever referring to themselves as "Melungeon". They always maintained they were "Indians". Brenda has put a lot of reference material on this site that is very informative on this subject.

"Flat feet" are a common Human ailment found everywhere at about the same frequency, not specific to any "race".

Yes, "shovel-shaped" incisors are relevant. So are molars whose enamel wraps around underneath the body of the molar, and between the roots, which often have enamel "spurs" on them. This often causes early tooth lose because gum tissue does not adhere to tooth enamel, allowing food particles to cause abcessing. These physical characteristics are only found in descendants of Northeast Asian people and are genetically transmitted. Southeast Asians also have tooth formations sometimes referred to as "shovel-shaped", but are more strictly defined as "pegged" or "flat-topped" incisors. There is also a difference in the "pattern" on top of molars, comparing SE Asian to NE Asian or any of them (a small qualification here would require a separate chapter, due to admixture) to African/European populations; the later "super-group" having no dental differentiation to separately distinquish them.

DNA tests to determine origins of your ancestors could determine a lot in the hands of a real researcher but DNA experts such as Cavalli-Sforza (the only group to have performed world-wide population genetic studies) have openly laughed at the kinds of DNA tests done commerically for genealogical "purposes". The problem is that the scope of commercial "tests" that are currently being marketed are not reliable except to generate money.

If two people suspected they were related, some commercially marketed DNA tests could determine whether they were related within 3, 10 or 40 generations. Even those don't have the resolution to be more specific - speaking only about the commercial tests marketed as genealogical tools - not speaking about DNA tests for forensic purposes.
There are "DNA Testing Labs" that pretend to tell you if you are Scandinavian ("Viking"), or French or Irish, etc., but there just isn't as much genetic variability between "races" as most people suppose - "White" really is only skin-deep :) . Which "Daughter of Eve" do you descend from? It's possible to tell. What most people don't know is that the male and female genes alledged to be able to determine if one is of American Native descent are also found in the area of present-day Iran (and several places across Europe). Does that mean that the Indo- European Iranians are American Indians? No. It only says that genetically, human populations are not very different at the genetic level (that's why we can procreate with any race :) and cause further genealogists big headaches!).
The genetic differences are at the Allele and Haptloglobulin gene loci which require weeks and weeks of processing time and labor to determine and cost thousands of dollars.

The commercial tests "might" be able to tell the difference between a Congo Native from Africa and a Scandinavian ( but there is VERY little difference at the genetic level), but the cost of doing so reliably is about 10 times what they are charging so one can only suspect the tests are subjective in nature. So, my personal take on these is to save your money.
Bill

Linda

12-02-2004, 11:31 PM

My connection with Mike Nassau is that it was he and a fellow named Carlton who encouraged me to write the "Other Blackfoot" article to be a part of a book on Melungeons that never came together. I'd posted something to a genforum they thought intriguing and invited me to contribute. I'm grateful for that encouragement, since the article has been a focal point in bringing Blackfoot ID'd people together.

I heard they did some DNA work that revealed what they thought to be evidence of Ice Age migrations to the east coast of North America by people with the "Zena" mother -- the meditteranean. I don't know how strong their evidence is, but I found it interesting, since I have met so MANY Indian people here in the upper south who resemble my dad's side of the family (Meditteranean). One of those two told me they tested a group of Mohawks that came up positive for Zena.

It's all interesting, but impossible at this point for me to know what to conclude. I hear there's tremendous bickering among Melungeon researchers, so I'm steering clear of it.

Bill Childs

12-02-2004, 11:51 PM

I probably should have steered clear of it, too :)
just thought I could add some background for others to consider.
Bill

Brenda Collins Dillon

12-03-2004, 07:20 AM

Bill says above.....have openly laughed at the kinds of DNA tests done commerically for genealogical "purposes". The problem is that the scope of commercial "tests" that are currently being marketed are not reliable except to generate money.

I was discussing this the other day with a friend who's husband is a medical doctor . He told us that unless both sides of the family is tested the person is only getting half of the picture. I keep hearing about them only testing the direct male side of the family. Unless both sides are tested then you can't get a true picture of the makeup of the ancesters because the NA trait might come from the woman's side.

Brenda

Hana

12-03-2004, 11:53 AM

There are two different types of the commercial tests. (That I know of, could be more.) One tracks your male or female ancestor -- but can only trace the mother or your mother's mother's mother's... you get the idea, all the way back. Or father's father's etc. While interesting, not that useful if you don't happen to have the person you want on that direct female-only or male-only line. Or don't have access to a relative who does. (This wouldn't work in my family's case.) The other is supposed to give you percentages of various ethnicities. They seem to have come up with 6. Don't understand how this one works. From what I can figure it seems to be based on more questionable assumptions. But it's the only one we could use, and I'd wondered how good it was for tracking native-american ancestry. Does it for instance, trace some gene that only appears in native-americans, or something? Or does it match your gene pattern to those of other people they already have in the system?

Oops, gotta go.

vance hawkins

12-03-2004, 03:26 PM

Hana, your post was fine, if I sounded upset -- I wasn't. You can't see "body language" in an email. :) In fact I haven't seen that website yet -- no time at present.

Here are my responses to you questions

1. Blackfoot vs Blackfeet -- easy to answer. I don't know. :)

2. Blackfoot-Cherokee -- My opinion based on my research is that i.] mixed blood Christian Indians from the East Coast migrated with the first White Settlers west of the Appalachians. The first generation fought against the Cherokee and Shawnee and basically took those lands from them. ii.] Some of their children later married into Cherokee families, that also migrated north from their homes in SE Tn and adjacent states. This is my "guess" and probably can't be proven and it is just one idea of many that might have some validity. I might be wrong.

3. Physical attributes -- some say they are importand and others that they are irrelivant. I don't know. To be Indian, I'd think Brown skin and eyes, and black hair are most common. Beyond that I don't know . . . :)

4. DNA -- I heard there were 2 tests, one for the male side and one for the female. But if your ancestor who you think was Indian was your father's mother -- and he is passed on, you'll never find it unless you test his DNA somehow, because one tests the male descended from a male descended from a male (etc) while the other works for the female descended from a female descended from a female (etc). Female test was through mitochondrial DNA nad male was Y chromosone test, I believe. There is a website somewhere that discusses this. I think there are four genetic markers for American Indians showing perhaps four migrations. I need to look this up before spouting anything else off . . .

lynellarainhawk

12-03-2004, 09:02 PM

Hana,

Well, I found nothing upsetting or wrong with your info. or your intent. This has been a very good piece, indeed. I never imagined there would be things like flat feet (all the women in my moms side as well as all of her daughters and Kerry, have not only flat feet, but bunnions the size of NEW YORK CITY!:D ) And teeth! Bill, I had no clue! This is so fascinating! I find nothing offensive with any ancestoral blood no matter who it came from, even if they were green skinned. Blood is blood, we all have it and there is both good and bad in every single person through all walks of life. We live and learn and hopefully find ways to help one another along the way.

I hope I find that there is Blackfoot/Cherokee. Because we were always Blackfoot, according to my mom. Written lineage has shown me there is also Cherokee in me. So some how some where along the way, I got both. I think finding the Blackfoot link is going to be harder for me than I thought. My sister found the Cherokee and I'm just verifying that. All my life I've been Blackfoot, even if somehow mom got it wrong. That's just the way it is. AND I LOVE YOU GUYS! Lynella.:D

lynellarainhawk

12-03-2004, 09:07 PM

P.S.

Tom, Techteach, Vance, Hana, EVERYONE,

Christmas is coming, where do I send the cards? If ya' don't want to post your address, e-mail it to me at lynellarainhawk@yahoo.com
And if ya' don't want me to send ya' a card, that's o.k too, atleast ya' know I thought and think about you all!:D

Julie Jennings

01-01-2005, 06:39 PM

I have read everyone's comments, and have come to the conclusion that Europeans are still using menthods of divide and conquer via DNA, racial re-assignment and methods of psychological insecurity. Don't be fooled.
If the one drop factor applies to being Black, then the one drop factor should work if your Red!
Julie

lynellarainhawk

01-01-2005, 11:06 PM

Julie,

Bless you! You're right. Love & Light and Darn Good Seeing Ya'! :) Lynella.

techteach

01-02-2005, 07:26 AM

Julie:
Thanks for your opinion. It reflects the way that most people feel on this board I believe. Because of my great-grandparents shunning that part of my mother's family, I am only now meeting (at least online) cousins who are related as closely to me as the cousins on my German father's side that I used to celebrate Christmas with. My great grandparents would not associate with my great grandfather's family, so I never met the people in my family who knew their native traditions and continued to celebrate them. My great grandmother would not even sit in the same room with my gggrandmother. I feel as if they stole part of my heritage. So do other descendents. My ggggrandmother now has a new headstone proclaiming her as Blackfoot, replacing the one that simply read "Mother," placed there by a cousin who felt her story needed telling also.

Techteach

Julie Jennings

01-02-2005, 09:15 AM

It's too bad that society influences our self-worth and shapes us into everything other than what we are supose to be.
For Example: My birth certifiacate has me listed as Negro, yet I have a federally issued ID card.
Talk about psycholgical warfare!
Julie

Patty

01-02-2005, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by Linda
.....I found it interesting, since I have met so MANY Indian people here in the upper south who resemble my dad's side of the family (Meditteranean). One of those two told me they tested a group of Mohawks that came up positive for Zena. ....

I find this very interesting as well. My father-in-law is Italian. My mother-in-law is Irish. Both are first generation in the US, so no chance of mixing up the genes over here.

My husband has shovel teeth and the bump on the back of the head thing (anatolian bump?)

Many people think my husband is either Mexican or Asian.

Could be something about that Italian side of the family........supposed to come from the Italian Alps area.

Patty

01-02-2005, 06:28 PM

Julie, I agree, the labeling is a crucial part of manipulation of groups against each other and the continuation of class warfare. I believe that discrimination in this country IS about race, it IS about gender, it IS about sexual orientation and it's ALL about class. The labels some of us get stuck with are tools that are used to keep us in the lower classes.

It's one of the ways those with power keep people fighting with each other over the scraps in life, while others walk away with the bounty. (or, if you're less paranoid than I am, it's how we all lose out by fighting over the scraps)

If they can stick a label on you (and especially if they can get you to accept it), then they can find a way to make that label a bad thing. Whether it's religion, color, gender, heritage or sexual orientation, they can then find some group somewhere that wants to hate you for it, even to the point of denying you your rights. As long as we're all fighting over who sleeps with who and what color the babies might be, we all lose.

Patty

01-02-2005, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by Hana
A bit of interesting historical musing and material, mostly in Melungeons and Mestis, but briefly mentions Saponi, Lumbee, and others we've been looking at. http://www.darkfiber.com/blackirish/melungeons.html

OK, I've been reading this article, and I got to this part:

The Melungeons usually have been peaceful, and while they are prone to shooting towards flatlanders snooping in the hills (suspected of being revenuers), these expert hunters who live on rabbits and squirrels rarely actually hit the person. They never served in the military (Jean Bible notes about 40 Melungeons served in the Union army in the Civil War, but out of a group of several thousand even then, that is very few) until the First World War, when they were finally allowed to serve in white units (only after presenting the army with affidavits from the county clerks in their home counties saying they were not considered black). In the Second World War, they learned to drive jeeps in the army, and when they returned to the hills, they could then deliver their moonshine to the towns and eliminate the white middlemen. This is their main danger to outsiders, since they frequently will be found driving the mountain roads of northeast Tennessee and southwest Virginia at night at high speeds with their lights out.

....and I guess I hafta laugh, because.....this sounds a whole lot like a LOT of my relatives from Kentucky and so far, I haven't found one reference to Melungeons among them. We might be Melungeon, we might not, but there certainly was enough moonshining, fast driving and rabbit & squirrel eating to fit the bill. Isn't this true of a lot of Appalachian folks??

Julie Jennings

01-02-2005, 07:46 PM

Patty,
Not only are we talking race, but the ever expanding market culture. The expansion of (white) corporate power is driven by this pervasive commercialization and commodification for two basic reasons, First, market activities of bying and selling, advertising and promoting weaken nonmarket activities of caring, sharing, nuturing and connecting. Second, private aims trump public asperations. As Native Americans, this system of egocentric thinking is not comprehensible and therefor, has retarded our potential for growth in the 21st century.
Julie

Patty

01-02-2005, 09:57 PM

Julie, I like the way you think, very interesting concepts!

Clinton's former adviser Robert Reich said in an interview a while back that we have a responsibility to save capitalism from itself. I'm not real sure what that means, but I do think we've "run amuck". When the insurance companies determine our health care instead of our doctor, something is seriously wrong.

I read an article back before all this news about Vioxx and Celebrex, that said you should never take a prescription drug that has been on the market less than five years because it's still considered to be in a "testing phase" to see if there are bad reactions. Well gee thanks for making us all guinea pigs!! I guess we can see how well that works out now that there are serious health risks with some of this stuff. I'm also what's called a DES Daughter, which is another profit driven mess created by the pharmaceutical companies.

We hear a lot about how workers have to make sacrifices because it's good for the economy. Jobs are being exported to other countries, pensions are drying up, retiree benefits are under tremendous attack, Social Security and Medicare will not be there when I retire.....(wonder where all our money went??)

Lately, when I'm listening to the news I substitute the phrase "the corporations" every time I hear "the economy".

It's very enlightening.....

lynellarainhawk

01-02-2005, 10:12 PM

Patty,

Yes, I fit the bill, squirell eating and all!:)

I like the way you both think. Though at this time of evening my brain starts running out of words to express myself. Julie, I love your gift for conversation it is absolutely a winning quality!:) And I think you're beautiful too! It must be nice!;)

Julie at your words I started getting all rialled up inside again! My cantankerous side really wants to stand up and fight!

Ah, but I must controll myself or I'll be getting me into trouble! Red Hawk had the same effect on me last summer! Everytime he spoke his mind, I was ready to jump in there and pick a fight!

Bless you both, and thank you for your keen insight. Love & Light, Always, Lynella.

Julie Jennings

01-03-2005, 08:35 PM

Just do what every good Indian woman would do... kick some butt, and then go waeve a basket!
hahahhahah.
Julie

lynellarainhawk

01-03-2005, 09:44 PM

Julie,

:D I love it!:D And it sounds like a lot of fun, too. Lynella.

Hana

01-10-2005, 02:54 PM

Hi,

I've missed you guys. Been sick and still am but having a quiet couple of moments wanted to weigh back in on the general topic. First, I agree with you on the political stuff, and further, want to add that at least for me, it's easy to get caught up and lose my own perspective at times, so it's good to have the reminders that I'm not the only one who values different things. (I live in a very rat-race part of the country.)

About the blackfoot theory stuff from that other site, I elaborated about my interest in it offline but I guess it mostly amounts to I'll take whatever I can get to help figure out who these ancestors of mine were. And by 'who' I guess I mean where they came from, what they were running from (besides poverty)... and even things like what they looked like. I'd just like to know their story and how it got started, as much as I can.

About labeling, everytime you do anything, you are asked to label yourself, it seems. Just today, to make a doctor appointment, I was asked my ethnicity and religious preference. Should have just said 'none' to both. Instead, not expecting the questions, I answered off the top of my head, saying none about religion (really meaning 'decline to state'), and gave them what they wanted to hear about ethnicity. White. ( Even though the whites didn't accept me as a kid as being white.) Because if they saw me that's the color they'd see. And I don't really know enough to answer anything else.

Gad, this has me crying of all things. I've got to be ready for this kind of stuff. When it's in writing I always just checked 'other.' I'm not trying to be something I'm not, and the majority of my genetics is likely European, so I guess 'white' is a good an answer as any. So why does it feel so bad. And like I'm knucking under or something.

Anyway, on a completely other topic (and the one that got me interested in that Melungeon article), I just found out that there may be some African ancestry on one of my Moore lines. Why do I want to know this? Partly because I'm ornery, and anything they were trying hard to hide, I want to know.
Partly because I think that some of what messed my family up was keeping things hidden. It didn't protect us from much. The rumors were still there. And I think, maybe, all the moving, and the hiding I'm assuming they were doing, twisted some of my ancestors inside. I'd like to turn that back around in this generation, if I can. If my theory is true, maybe in this generation, pride can replace shame.

lynellarainhawk

01-10-2005, 07:43 PM

Hana,

:) I am so glad to hear from you. Ya' know when I got the card you sent me, it moved me so much I cried. Thank you for that, I mean really, thank you.;)

What ever you do, when it is done with good intent, that's all that matters. The way I see it, good intent, even if it goes bad, there wont be any bad karma. And what ever your reasons for searching out your history, do it if that's what you want in your heart. That is the best way I can put it. But you may get a letter in the mail from me one of these days, ya' never know. And we can get chatty!:D

I'm glad you're back and hope you feel better really fast! Cause you have a lot of research to do!:D Love & Light, Lynella.

Hana

01-10-2005, 08:27 PM

Thanks, Lynella, sweetie, for that. And thanks for the thanks! You know (I hope) you are welcome to write anytime and be as chatty as you wish. (You know I can sure get going!) ;)

Julie Jennings

01-10-2005, 08:30 PM

Hi Hana,
Sorry to hear you were under the weather.
Anthropologically speaking, let me add a little more noise to your head...
Humans have this need to establish our place and purpose in the universe in order to understand ourselves. In other words, we're driven simply for survival and propergation. You decide what drives you and how you wish to propergate!!!

PS. I would love to have someone send me a greeting card.
Please have it state: How does it feel to be single again!
LOL

Julie Jennings

01-10-2005, 08:38 PM

PS. Hana,
You sound as if your ashamed of having European ancestry. Remember, Creator made us all.
Look at me, people are always making fun at the way I Look. I'm asked if I eat wild animals in live in the forest and do I kill people.
Just walk your walk girl, and the **** with everybody else.
LOL

Hana

01-10-2005, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by Julie Jennings
PS. Hana,
You sound as if your ashamed of having European ancestry. Remember, Creator made us all.
Look at me, people are always making fun at the way I Look. I'm asked if I eat wild animals in live in the forest and do I kill people.
Just walk your walk girl, and the **** with everybody else.
LOL

Nah, not ashamed. Hard to explain though. Part of it is that I want to embrace all of me and it hurts my heart that apparently my ancestors were rejecting part of theirs.

The other part I don't even know how to explain without using a lot of words and perhaps not even then. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything. Will try a bit though.

The European side, my mother's side, which is also the side with Native-American ancestry, is the side of my family I knew the least about. I'm Jewish, like my father, and that's the side of the family I always identified with. Both sides rejected us because of the 'mixed-marriage' to some extent, but my mother's side much moreso. Come to find they seem to have been hiding things about their ancestry. (And the ones I've met online have actually been quite friendly. 'Course I don't mention the Jewish bit. I'm proud of being Jewish, I just have more interest in finding out about this genealogy stuff than I do in finding out how prejudiced my Texas relatives remain.) There is a lot not to like about some on that side of my family but I still want to know about them.

Ah heck, I probably shouldn't get into all this here. Ethnicity is such a weird topic. I grew up an an African-american neighborhood, and neither blacks nor whites considered me white. It's weird to grow up and suddenly be white.

And everyone, including distant relatives, are looking into this genealogy stuff for their own reasons. For some it seems to be pride in 'breeding,' and there are those in my mother's family whom I've met online who seem to be quite resistant to even considering non-European heritage.

It was rather appealing to read about Melungeons, to see being mixed as its own culture. It seems to me to be the wave of the future, in any case, as we don't live in such isolated worlds anymore. Back when my parents married, people from their backgrounds rarely even met.
And yet, some of us have a yearning for a sense of family. To discover that my four year old son who loves the sound of the violin had a ggg-grandfather (who btw, was the one who told his kids that we have NDN blood) who was a fiddler and made his own. I want to find what is lost.

Some mixed feelings about the European ancestry, and moreso, what it meant to my mother's family, but I haven't found much to be ashamed about yet. If anything, I've been surprised by some good things.

lynellarainhawk

01-10-2005, 11:13 PM

Julie,

give me your mailing address and I'll send you lots of cards & stuff!

Hana,

I think I know where you're coming from. I'm not ashamed of my European parts either. But those are parts that dissed my NA parts, so, sometimes I feel a little angry at them, but I still love them, cause they're mine! I think, as we go, we may find that there was some NA on my dad's side as well. I pretty much consider him plain English. But there was a lot to that ol' man and he taught me a lot of things that to me are much more NA beliefs than not. I was always closer to him than to my mom. And since my mom was the NA side, and I did learn A LOT of ways from her, we were never as close as we should have been. That's part of this for me. Finding the rest of mom!:) And having had 6 older sisters and 2 older brothers who had all pretty much gone from home by the time I could remember, I always had a bit of an identity crisis going. A part of each of them in my upbringing, like parts of them but no part was me. Does that make sense? Anyway I'm searching for the rest of me. And I'm meeting a lot of truly beautiful humans along the way.

Julie,

And I think, if anyone can help us find us Anthropologically or otherwise, it would have to be JULIE. She's cornered the market on one fine specimen of humanity. AND BRAINS, girl, Julies got em all! And sense of humor, again, Julies got that too. I say she's deffinately a KEEPER!:D And HANA SO ARE YOU. Love & Light, Lynella.

lynellarainhawk

01-10-2005, 11:18 PM

Julie,

Seriously, give me a mailing address for you. If ya' don't want to leave it out in the open on the forum, e-mail it to me at lynellarainhawk@yahoo.com ;) I love sending cards:D Thank you two for being.;) Lynella.

Julie Jennings

01-11-2005, 06:01 AM

Lyn and Hana:
Have youe ever thought that the "white" part of your heritage loved Indian people so much that they wanted to inter-marry, and make beautiful rainbow people?
Hey, I'm no different, dispite what I look like, I an a mixture of black, white and red.

My address is: Julie Jennings; 40 Union Avenue; Warwick, RI., 02889.

lynellarainhawk

01-12-2005, 10:15 PM

Julie,

Ya' know, I never have actually looked at it that way!:) Thank you! See, You've got the brains!;) Actually, I love the intermarriage part. I have no qualms with that at all. It's those Ashby snobs who fought with what's his whos-it's in Bacon's Rebellion and all of those who killed NDN's. That's the angry part. It's like I just want to go scalp me a couple a English dudes!:D Of coarse I wouldn't, but ya' know? I printed out your address I'm putting it straight into my address book. You'll hear from me soon!;) Love & Light, Lynella.

Patty

01-17-2005, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by Patty
I find this very interesting as well. My father-in-law is Italian. My mother-in-law is Irish. Both are first generation in the US, so no chance of mixing up the genes over here.

My husband has shovel teeth and the bump on the back of the head thing (anatolian bump?)

Many people think my husband is either Mexican or Asian.

Could be something about that Italian side of the family........supposed to come from the Italian Alps area.

OK, New information.....my father-in-laws father was from an Italian family living in ARGENTINA!!! ....who moved back to Italy where he met and married my husband's grandmother......that should explain the shovel teeth, etc.

Looks like I'm a descendent of North American Indians, and my DH is a descendent of South American Indians.

sand&spur

01-24-2005, 10:24 AM

LynellaRainHawk,
For 30 I have searched for my ancestors. I am told they are Blackfoot. Montana, Dakotas, Tenn, S.C., N.C, Delaware. Pa, Colo., Arizona, even Maryland. I followed the nation from Delaware because of a great move when the white man was going to either kill or imprison them.
This Blackfoot nation, also called by other names, moved south into the Carolinas, Tenn, Kentucky etc. People set up camps and remained, while others of the nation pushed west and north. I am also told of a movement of white men coming from Canada into the Dakotas, Montana etc. Just as some of the Blckfoot people sought women of other cultures while they fled the white man's brutality, the french canadians sought out the women of the indian nations, including Blackfoot. I know this to be true because I have spoken to a Council Chief of the Seven Nations, and he has told me of people there bearing my current last name. But the name I search for is not found as of this date.
Ms. Hawk, often when people meet there hearts soar.Such people do not see skin, only eyes & heart. Such meetings outside the race were not allowed & are still frowned upon.
Perhaps it is not shame, but a nations teachings that does not permit a person to love other races. It was a brave man who took an indian wife & more brave the indina woman.
Respectfully,
Sand & Spur

lynellarainhawk

01-24-2005, 11:28 AM

Sand & Spur,

Respectfully, I think I'm a little confused!:) Are your Blackfoot originating way back from NC, and places back east? Then moved upward toward Montana, etc.? Or is it more the other way around? Or, a bit of both? I have a feeling we could learn a lot from you. ;) I'll write more in a bit.

Julie Jennings

01-24-2005, 11:59 AM

Hi Lyn!
I got your card. Thank you, that was very thoughtful. I'm getting ready to exhibit my baskets at an Indian art show. I just finished creating a deer antler basket. I'll never make another one!
Also, school starts up again for me, so I'll be out of the loop for a while. I'll be sending you something in the mail soon.
LOL

lynellarainhawk

01-24-2005, 01:31 PM

Julie,

Glad you got it! I have another one here for you! Congratulations and good luck on your exibit. I bet that Deer antler basket was a quite large bit of work. I bet it's really awsome though! I sure would love to see it! Don't stay too busy, remember to take a breather once in a while!;) Love & Light, Lynella.

lynellarainhawk

01-24-2005, 01:36 PM

Sand&Spur,

:) Sorry about that! I was way stressing over something else when I read your post to me. Now that it's been over an hour and my brain is getting back on track, I've re-read your post and it makes beautiful and perfect sense. At first, I was just missing the point. DUH!:rolleyes: Thank you so very much for your wise words. I sent you a message, did ya' get it?;) Love & Light and Looking Foreward to More Talking, Lynella.

sammarroq

10-18-2006, 11:30 AM