Saponi Melungeon ( Saponi) Resources

[kimmcarthur]

I thought the below website have great Saponi Melungeon Resources..
http://appalachian_home.tripod.com/melungeon.htm#listchat

________________________

COMMON MELUNGEON SURNAMES:

http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~mtnties/surname.html

[Dreaminghawk]

I had seen Cox (Cocks) mentioned as a possible NDN surname but was surprised to see my Dalton surname on both lists..... and here I was searching Simpkins LOL ........ actually I think we are discovering that if your family was in Va/NC in 1700s then you probably have triracial roots. Becky's Cole, Wilson, and Whited are also on lists.
BTW........ browsing archives I found a post relating NDN blood to homeopathy. I think that is a very valid comparison. Sometimes the tiniest spark can light a blazing fire. If the values and spirit of the people can be reborn, what else matters?
I'm still reading old posts as you can see...... I do wonder if Dalton got on the list in Va or after they got to Ky? My Dalton's stayed in Va but had close kin who migrated west. And what did we find out about Cox?
peace
Ken

[CoheeLady]

Who made up that list? Found many a surname on there that isn't Melungeon.

[dianek]

the listed url keeps taking me to"this page cannot be displayed.

[Dan Akin]

Cohee Lady; That would be Nancy Sparks Morrison, I believe. She hosts a Mellungeon forum at Topica.com. I found her to be a very nice person and very informative. I cannot speak to the accuracy of her surname list.
I think, personally, there is a movement out there to expand the use of the name Melungeon to include more people of undetermined multi-racial ethnicity.
I haven't found a real good definition of what a Mellungeon is supposed to be or who can be included or excluded.
I think an example to me would be Micajah Bunch. Coming out of Va. and listed as a mulatto he is found living in Ashe County N.C. along the New River with the Collins and others and migrates with them to be found living on the Clinch River just east of Richard Green and just south of Newman's Ridge in Hawkins County Tn. He doesn't stay there though but continues on to Cumberland County Ky.
Now, many call him a Melungeon (some even claim he was the "King of the Mellungeons") and he may so be, but when he went to live in Cumberland County Ky. is he no longer a Mellungeon?
Dan Akin.

[CoheeLady]

Dan,
Thanks for the reply. :) The one surname that stood out from the rest was CUSTALOW. Since the Custalow's are Mattaponi & still maintain the oldest reservation in the United States, I found it rather odd that their surname was amongst the known Melungeon names.
Sincerely,
Deborah

[Forest]

Many of the names on this list are simply not Melungeon surnames, common or otherwise. Unless your definition of Melungeon is one that includes practically every mixed race community in the southeast. What the lister has done is lump in, for example, every common Lumbee surname (Locklear, Lowry, Dial, Revels, etc.), include numerous ones from other communities, and finally throw in the ones that actually are the old Melungeon surnames, expanding the definition of the word until it is almost meaningless.



Collins, Goins, and Gibson are some of the earliest surnames that can be said to be Melungeon, with others adding to the mix soon after their arrival in the Newman's Ridge area.

Pat Spurlock Elder, in her "Melungeons:Examining An Appalachian Legend", has an excellent, no-nonsense examination of Melungeon surnames, and is well worth taking a look at.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

I agree with Forest on Pat's book. She sent me one hot off the press when it first came out and I use it as a great resourse tool. Somebody else ask me about it so I looked it up on the internet and found it is out of print and sold out but I am sure most libraries in Melungeon territory would have a copy.

Brenda

[Dan Akin]

I believe I would lean toward keeping the purity of the core families. I am not a Melungeon myself, but I am something else that is yet to be identified.
The Melungeon Movement appears to me to be a concerted effort to create a greater identity and in that way it would cause the loss of the unique qualities of the Melungeon people.
As far as the often disputed origins of the Melungeon families it seems to me they clearly originated in the Piedmont of Va. and did not arrive in Hancock County Tn. until around 1790/1800. They can easily be traced using the simplest research. Please correct me if I'm wrong, from central Va. they settled along the New River in old Wilkes County now Ashe and adjoining Counties in n.w. N.C. and then returned to Va. (s.w. Va.) before settling on the Clinch River in n.e. Tn.
Please explain to me how this connects to some mountain Portuguese tribe living in the Applalacian Mountains in the 1600's who rang a huge bell, etc., etc.
Dan.

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

Dan,

According to what I have read; the first Melungeons were discovered by exployers sent out from Jamestown Settlement in 1607-8 and found living among the natives in log cabins. IF they were already living among the natives then they were there before Jamestown was settled. The exployers were sent out to explore the land to the south and I believe found this people long what is todays VA/NC border. The record for this is suppose to be in the archives at Rielegh, NC. ( Kennedy, Joins,Spurlock)

This people that the exployers found said they were Portugese.
They had intermarried with the natives and after several generations they were more Indian than anything else. It was this later generations that moved into the mountains of Tennessee and SW Virginia which became known as the Melungeons. (Melungeons that were living as Indians in Virginia before migerating to Tennessee.)

Does this make since?

[Dan Akin]

Brenda; I like the research of Jack Goins for the origins of the Mellungeons. I will have to look up my info. but I seem to remember that he traces them to the tidewater rivers of Va. and the selling of their lands there before moving to N.C. They followed their white Va. neighbors to the areas of the frontier settlements.
I guess the point could be that even if those Portuguese folks were living in the 1600's in the mountains, and are still there, they are not the Tidewater Va. Indian families of Saponi and Powhaton descent surnamed Collins, Blevins, Goins, Bolling, Mullins, etc.
Dan.

[Bill Childs]

I once found Nancy Sparks Morrison's missing Will Collins guy.
She didn't appear to want him found. I couldn't agree more that her particular group is attempting to expand the definition. I'll go farther. It's my opinion that her work seems to be in the direction of expanding that definition in order to be a part of that group. If you look at Nancy's picture on her website, you will see another Indian.

[Bill Childs]

Pat Spurlock Elder's book "Melungeons: Examining an Appalachian Legend" is available from continuitypress.com
It is excellent.

[Dreaminghawk]

Well, I didn't know that my simple inquiry of a link that has been sitting in the archives of this forum since 2002 would generate such a spirited discussion. This is excellent and I think it shows how much the forum members have learned about themselves since 2002. This is good.
I will restate my question in broader terms. Assuming this expanded list was drawn from diverse peoples of various origins, how and why is Dalton on the list?
peace

[Tom]

Hello Well so far we only have a very limited source for the terms melungeon and it all stems from the same premise.
because there are so many missing tribal languages there is the chance that the term may not be of portugese origins.
One question I have is "who coined the term" was it a self ID or was it applied to a specific group by non group members.
There was a large pan tribal communtiy on the NC / VA border (late 1700's early 1800's) that many people descended from, so like other perjoritives it may be that the term covered a large and varied group(s) of families.
So far no one has attempted to define the Native American component that helps make up the population termed "Melungeon"., (and the African American component aswell)
Futhermore has anyone found the first references to this group;(s) using this term, when was it and to whom was it first applied ?
I have Brent kenndy's book , it's a great start but only helps to define the people involved as all calling themselves "white portugese".
anyway I'd sure like to see some more of the work done on tribal groups that are related to these mixed groups.
Tom

[Brenda Collins Dillon]

I have the file that Virginia Easley DeMarce sent to me. It is a great resource tool and well documented. What I have read of hers is mostly referred to as "mixed or Tri-mixed"

{INTRODUCTION:
This study is limited to the Tennessee Melungeons of Hawkins/Hancock County (with what can be learned specifically about them in the counties from which their ancestors came, and the counties to which members of their families moved). It does not use the term "Melungeon" generically to describe tri-racial or possibly tri-racial settlements in the remainder of Tennessee's counties, much less all over the Upper South.}


Brenda

[Forest]

Regarding Dalton, I would imagine it is on the list due to it's connection (as I seem to recall) with the so-called Guineas of West Virginia. Norris and Male also occur there, and have been thrown into the "Melungeon" surname list by the compiler.

Most of the families that can be identified as Melungeon can CLEARLY be traced to points further east, and were NOT in the mountains prior to the general movement west. They were also pretty clearly mixed-race before they arrived in Appalachia, and probably compounded the mixture with some of the remnant Indians they found when they got there.

I have been reading the biography of Alex Stewart, a noted folk artist and craftsman born and raised on Newman's Ridge in the 1890's. His comments on the Melungeons are interesting. While he seems to regard the melungeons as a different (from the whites) group ethnically, he clearly talks about many of his Gibson, Goins, and Collins neighbors without any hint that he considers them to be Melungeons. I suspect that there was an economic aspect to being a melungeon, in addition to the genetic one. That is, just being a Goins of mixed ancestry on Newmans Ridge did not automatically make you a Melungeon; being poor as gully dirt, mixed-blood, and living on Newman's Ridge might have. Even in 1850 the line may not have been a clear-cut one.

Just a thought.

[Forest]

The first use of the term was in the early 1800's in a church record. I'll have to look it up, but it seems to have been used as an insult.

1813 Stoney Creek Church minutes, according to Jack Goins Book, "Melungeons and other Pioneer Families"

[Linda]

Most of the families that can be identified as Melungeon can CLEARLY be traced to points further east, and were NOT in the mountains prior to the general movement west.

I take it that would mean that there's little evidence of the Melungeons deriving from marooned Moraccan's or whoever, who made it into the mountains before the general British-led settlement occured.

[dianek]

Would you assume someone in Texas, whose parents and grandparents came from KY and NC, and referred to their ancestry as Black Dutch, to be Melungeon? Or is that something altogether different?

[Dreaminghawk]

Quote >>Regarding Dalton, I would imagine it is on the list due to it's connection (as I seem to recall) with the so-called Guineas of West Virginia >>>

Thank you, Forest. I can find no evidence they were anything but white in Carroll and Floyd Co Va but they married extensively into surnames which do show more evidence of being mixed and many did migrate west about the same time as some of these other groups. My line stayed in Va.
peace

[Bill Childs]

For whatever it's worth, here's my two cents worth.
The terms "Black Dutch" and "Black Irish" were coined in Europe, NOT America.
"Black" Dutch, so called by the fair Dutch, were their darker (relative to the Dutch) Spanish colonizers of the 16th century Hapsburg Empire, and was a derogatory accusation that they were not "real" Dutch. It was a life & death qualifier during the Dutch revolution of the 1600s.
"Black" Irish is even more ancient and were remnants of the Iberian migration to Ireland pre-christian era. Study the history.

But both terms appear to have been misused by mixed blood Indians to pass for white after the 3rd or 4th generation. It really had nothing to do with "Black" as some people today use the term, derogatorially.

[dianek]

Thanks for responding. I am reading Brent Kennedy's book right now, also Manuel Mira, "The Forgotten Portuguese" and my head is swimming. I descend from the Collins and Oaks that left Kentucky and North Carolina to wind up in Missouri and Oklahoma via Indiana. When I asked my grandmother, a Collins, what our ancestry was, she would look a little strange and say, "Black Dutch", and I never could find out what that meant. My father was extremely dark, with blue eyes. Many of the things Kennedy writes, ring a familiar bell (pun intended).
I read everything you all post and mostly it is over my head. I appreciate any help or direction anyone offers.

[Dan Akin]

Di and all; I've had my bell wrung a time or two also. (Pun intended also.)
I think it is very tempting to be drawn in to what the Melungeon Movement is becoming.
You may have the physical characteristics called out by these groups (as I do), or some of your family surnames may be on their lists (as mine are), or your greatgrandmother claimed to be "Black Irish" (as mine did), or your grandmother still had elements of an old English dialect in her vocabulary (as did mine), or your family may religeously, fanatically claim ties to some Appalacian Indian tribe (as does mine without anyone ever finding out just who the heck you descend from), or your family pictures shockingly display Native American faces even up to the 1960's (mine did too), or your family may have even lived in Hawkins/ Hancock Counties in Tn. and had Mellungeon families as next door neighbors (as mine appear to have had).
Just because an individual has most of the characterictics called out by people in the developing Mellungeon Movement that does not make that person a Mellungeon.
After saying all of what I've said, I am supporting whole heartedly the Native American origins of the Mellungeon people. I have seen the reference to interviews of the Mellungeons of Hancock County Tn. As far as I know they have always said they are Indians.
Dan Akin.

[Tom]

Hello thank you all for your replies, It is great to see that the "flavors of the Day" still have thier "notes' on solid ground.
I would really like to see though who and how the tribal groups became mis'Id'ed.
I have heard that the Tuckahoe people were declared "white" by the Va, government, at some early date.
I wonder why this happened ?
Also has anyone researched the large pan tribal group that formed along the Va/ NC boarder prior to 1820?
Thanx once again, Tom

[dianek]

Yes, thank you all for your input. I am now also reading an article on the Melungeon movement from Interracial Voice by Jason Adams. Mostly, I like what he is saying. He supports a move toward using the term Metis for not quite white, not quite black and not quite Indian. His emphasis seems to be on the loss of identity rather than the idea of someone wanting to be something other than they are. It was the government that created and enforced the blood quantum mandate, just as it was the people in power that designated this particular group of people as less than on the basis of skin color.
So, I am wondering, what does make a person Melungeon? Is it where a person lives? a certain geneology? It is obviously not a race. All I wanted when I started on this quest, was to figure out where and who I came from. It appears as though there is some hidden agenda in this quest, if I am to judge by the amount of heated feelings I see displayed.
Can anyone explain to me what the agenda is?

[Linda]

It sounds like what Dan is saying is that, in order to be a Melungeon, your family has to have a history of having been called that.

[dianek]

OK. Fair enough. But what if your family has no history, only question marks? I was amazed when I got Col. Oaks letter and family group sheet on my grandmother about 10 years ago. I never knew she had siblings, much less 8 of them. When I was a child, I just accepted what was. Including being beat up and called names that I didn't understand. There seemed to be a void that was heightened by questions from others about what nationality, race, etc. I was or my dad was. When I did ask, I got the answer I told you- Black Dutch, and I never could find anything about that. Mostly they were vague.
As I have gotten older, I have wanted some kind of connection, roots, you might say. I wanted family and tradition. I felt left out, and I still do, when others talk about their heritage. As I have continued my education, the questions got louder. There were subtle attitudes and behaviors that got passed on and I have wanted to know where they came from.
I am beginning to understand that my grandparents and great grandparents very deliberately gave up who they were in the hopes of giving their children something better than they had, to protect them (me) from prejudice and what we now call marginalization.
Maybe it was not intended to be such, but the running posts on wannabes made me feel as though I were intruding where I do not belong- again. Like the time I got beat up because the neighbor kids thought I was something"other". I don't want to presume upon anyone else's identity, but you should understand that whatever roots I might have had, have been taken from me.
Reading Kennedy's book, where he talks about being told to just get on with his life, let it go, and he couldn't- I understand. People have said the same thing to me. What difference does it make? I can't even answer that now- I just know that it does make a difference to me, to know, to have some understanding of where my family came from and why they had the attitdes that they had.
When I began to make some headway in tracking down my grandmother's family, I was so excited. I did not care who they were or what race- just to finally have some idea was exhilarating to me. Much of the reception I have got from people I naively expected to welcome me with open arms, has been like a dash of cold water. I am hoping that I am misunderstanding, or that at least someone will take the time to explain why to me.
Thanks for taking the time to read this.:confused:

[Dan Akin]

Di; I have gone through the searching process myself. After leaving a fake Cherokee tribe here in Mo. I was frantic to try and discover my family's true origins after having been lied to for years. Other people have helped me and tolerated me until I now am calmly searching for the facts. I along with other members of my family have made some good progress and we are looking forward to new and exciting discoveries.
I am positive there is a place for you at Saponi Town. These are very friendly and good people and they are great researchers.
Dan Akin.

[dianek]

Thank you. Tolerance is good and Lord knows I need it. I have heard a little about the sad circumstances in MO with the Sapponi/Cherokee tribe. That is so sad that someone would take advantage. I now understand a rather strange letter I got from Col Oaks about 6 or 7 years ago, warning me not to give information to people who pretended to be Collins. I threw it away and did not correspond with him anymore, but now I am beginning to understand why he was so upset.
Although it would be really cool to find Indian heritage, the cool part of it is knowing where I came from, where I got my dark skin and hair and facial features. People have often asked me what nationality I am and I have had to say I don't know. For some reason that bothered me.
I will continue to read and search and hopefully be able to contribute to this site.
Thank you for your tolerance and patience with my passion and inexperience.:cool:

[Bill Childs]

Di,
You're as welcome here as anyone. Hope nothing I said has offended you. It was just a lively discussion.
My "agenda" is to connect as many people with their ancestors as is possible. Bill

[Dreaminghawk]

Your heartfelt post expresses my quest precisely. I don't care where the path leads, I don't want recognition, I don't want to pretend I'm something that I am not. I just want to know who I am for my own peace of mind.
I am white, but I'm not. I don't think white...... never have. My lips are too big, my hair is too kinky, I tan too deep, my face isn't shaped right....... and other whites see it too. I have always been an outsider.... the butt of cruel jokes.... brilliance in school just heightened it. I just want to know who my people are. I'll be proud regardless of what I find. Actually, with what I have seen on other native boards, I am becoming less interested in understanding NDNs as a whole and more introspective.
peace

[Bill Childs]

Yeah, Dreaminghawk, I know what you mean about some of those boards. Too exclusionary for me !

[Bill Childs]

Dreaminghawk,
I guess you and I are the only ones up this time of night.
I just came in from outside a few minutes ago. Had my big telescope out - one of the few fairly clear nights in a long time - just looking at the camp fires. Yeah, it's cold enough for a parka but it has warmed up a little to the mid-20's ! Cold never stops nuts like me !

[techteach]

Di:
You voiced my feelings too. I was told by my grandmother as I grew up that we had some native background but no one believed her but me. I saw it in the mirror. When I found out a couple of years ago that she was correct, I began to try to find out about this family. I now have a memoir from my great aunt that describes how my great grandparents separated themselves from the mixed part of the family and did not allow my gggrandmother to visit her family who continued to live native as did my gggrandmother. My aunt describes her as always looking sad. I am trying to find out about this family I never knew.

Cindy

[Linda]

Yes, Dianek, you voiced the kind of pain that's been running for generations in my family. The majority in the family may have been "passing' for white, but there were always the "throwbacks" who kept the Indian identity alive just by virture of the way they happened to look, an identity others in the family were relentless in dismissing or disrespecting, and then there were always the "black sheep" who couldn't stand all the dishonesty and meanness towards the "throwbacks."

I'm sorry if the"wannabe" thread made you feel excluded. I think what everybody was saying was a defense of the validity of people ridiculed as 'wannabes.'

[Charles Orear]

Greetings all,
I would have to agree with my friend Dan Aiken and support the theory that the "Melungeons" are more or less a group of mixed blood displaced folks. As we all know most of these folks either come from the Pamunkey River area or the old Ft Christanna region. I also agree that a lot of folks are jumping on this wagon.No doubt about it though I feel there is a Saponi/ Piedmount Siouan background in the majority of these families.
Melungeon seems to be a new catch all phrase , like "Cherokee" used to be the term used by a lot of people for unknown NA background.
A final note for Vance, you said in a post that some of your people clamed to be "Romani" whatever that is. Well my lovely wife to be is from Hungary, and is part Gypsy.The name that Gypsies call themselves is "Roma".As you may know some Gypsies came to Pennsylvania in the wave of the "Dutch"(German) settlers. Some think these may be the so called Black Dutch.
Charles
http://www.geocities.com/mikenassau/what.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/wv2/dillon1944/old_thomas_collins_of_flatt_river.htm
http://www.fialcowitz.com/Bunch/other9.html

[Dreaminghawk]

The Guineas of West Virginia

A Transcript of A Presentation at First Union

July 25, 1997, Wise Virginia

by

Joanne Johnson Smith & Florence Kennedy Barnett





Our people are known as the Guineas. The earliest family names prior to 1800 are Male, Norris,
Dorton(Dalton), Harris, Canaday(Kennedy), Newman and Croston.



The men have fought and died in the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812 and the Civil War, and all of
those thereafter.



I believe each of our people has the name Male as an ancestor. Some of the other names we may or
may not have. There are four names that most of us go back to in our lineage. They are Gustavis
Croston, Henry Dorton, Sam Norris and Wilmore Male.
<snip>
Henry Dorton or Dalton is the father of the Dalton line in Monongalia, Barbour and Taylor Counties.
He was born in Prince George County, Maryland to Ann Dorton or Dalton. She was an indentured
servant of Jane Martin, an Innkeeper. In 1777 he was drafted into the Revolutionary Army. On June 4,
1781, he married Eleanor Russel, in Prince George County, Maryland. In 1790, he migrated to what is
now Monongalia County, West Virginia. Some of his children married into the Males and Hills. As
years passed, the family spread into Barbour and Taylor counties, also. On a personal note, I am
acquainted with some of the Daltons and find that most of them still have a very striking Indian
resemblance. Service records that some of the Daltons entered the service under the racial
classification of Indian.
<snip>
Isaac Kennedy or Cannady was born in Maryland in 1760. He married Mary Runner. Isaac is the
father of the Kennedy line of the Guineas. His son was born in Hampshire County, Virginia in 1800.
His wife was Elizabeth Male. We share the two variations of this name with the Chickahomini of
Virginia and the Melungeons. The Kennedys or Cannadys migrated with the Males to Barbour and
Taylor counties.
peace

[dianek]

Thank you all for your kind responses. It is good to feel understood and accepted. I appreciate all of your willingness to educate me. I am so new to this that I sometimes am afraid of exposing how little I know.
I am curious about how you do the research. I am reading everything I can get my hands on, but I am also in school, so I have to take time to do homework. But I do have access to the UW online library, if anyone wants me to try to get something particular for them.
:D

[techteach]

Di:
That explains why we two are the only ones online. I just got back from the night class I teach. I know how you feel - so much you want to know and no time to hunt, not to mention fear of asking in case you have said the wrong thing.

Cindy

[dianek]

oh goodness. the teacher now knows what I am doing instead of my homework!
I just ordered a bunch of books from the library, several for my granddaughters on NDN lore. I can at least try to give them some of the "roots" I didn't get.
I have a paper due Tuesday, so I will have to disappear for a while.
Good night.

[collins]

Hey Di this is Scott Collins your cousin in Texas.
I just saw this thread and read it. Sorry I didn't read it before now.
You pretty much sum up what many of us Collins folks feel and how we have been treated. You are definatly welcome at Saponitown. Hope to see you post more in the future.

[collins]

Does anyone here know of a good tree for Brent Kennedy?

[VENUSNIA]

Hello everyone, I am new to this site and I am searching for my ancestors. My grandmother told me that there is Blackfoot and Cheyenne in our bloodline and I would love it if there is any one out there that can help me find them. I am looking for the last names of Rose and Scott out of Denver Co. Thanks, Venusnia

[BlondeyeLaurie]

Wow....how did I miss out on this discussion? I first want to say a big "thank you" to everyone here at Saponitown for such detailed and thought-provoking discussions and learning opportunities...I really dig the notion that there is a welcoming place for ppl seeking answers with others that are both helpful and honest...kudos to all for your continued genealogical and cultural support. Additionally, on topic, I feel compelled at thsi point to chime in with my "two cents worth" on the word: Melungeon. I rather dislike the word myself...I find it to be a trendy catch all for just way too many groups of people...it is both ill-defined and misused in my estimation. Have ANY of you EVER seen any document listing as "race" : Melungeon? Do the ppl called Melungeons call themselves that? As you can see by now...I'm not much on trendiness and loop-holing ppl of a ethnic or cultural or socio-economic or geographical area into a non-historical title seems bogus to me. *shrugs* I'm betting alot of ppl who simply did not or do not know what exactly their cultural origins are/were just jumped aboard the Melungeon train and had a meaningless ride....yeehaw! Wouldn't it just be groovy if everyone knew precisely what their genetic/ancestral origins were?...you bet it would...but to snag a grip on an analogous term and tout it to the masses like a Gold Club membership leaves me sour in the mouth. Isn't it far more noble to just say : " gee, I do not know the exact originas of my ancestry" and then delve and research and try your darndest to find out rather than to spend ersot hours and months and years labelling yourself wrongfully? I know that many many countless ppl from generations past and present find cultural shame in their "roots"...shema is imposed by others...sham is imposed by oneself. If we all work hard and embrace the mane of acceptance then eventually we will fidn our answers and until then be proud of being who you uniquely are and do not allow others to errantly label you otherwise. I give hands-down WAY more credence to my elders notions of who we are than to a modern day money making social ploy. Trendiness is sheepish and bores me to pieces...I've said my piece, forgive me for being so curt and offput by the topic but the long hard winding road , for me, is far more appealing than the one paved by the masses. I compare the term Melungeon to the KY/VA/TN equivalent of "trailor trash"...it strikes me as more of a social demarkation than a genetic earmark. I don't buy into it...besides, who decides who can and who cannot be Melungeon anyhow? Who defines which surnames are applicable and which are not? Just who determines which ridge-residents qualify and which do not? I've actually seen posts where some ppl claiming to be Melungeon oust others saying in essence: Oh no..you are not a TRUE core Melungeon descendant. How pitiful is that? I've read the books and they left me feeling mostly dry...itching to find out what, if any tribal affiliation my maternal kin had...and feeling PO'd at myself for giving 12 to 20 bucks to someone else when I could have spent the money on an Eastern Cherokee Application or ancestral death certificate. Blessings and much much genealogical luck to everyone~~~~Laurie

[PappyDick]

I compare the term Melungeon to the KY/VA/TN equivalent of "trailer trash"...it strikes me as more of a social demarkation than a genetic earmark.

I probably don't know enough of the by-now-voluminous literature in which people have pooled their knowledge (or lack thereof) on the origin of the term Melungeon. But in principle, I agree with Laurie's assessment, it has not typically been a term used to complement someone. In my grandmother's childhood in the west edge of Nashville, there were only a very few families called Melungeons (this was about 1890). The ones I know about were named Dungey and Green, and both of those families were a little later considered African-American, at least by the 1920s. She told a little anecdote about her older brother having once committed the social gaffe of tipping his hat to Kate Dungey when he passed her, walking on the opposite side of the road (Charlotte Pike), in the fading twilight. (This proper white lady married a guy whose grandfather and father were listed as mulatto in the 1850 census, but I'm sure she didn't know that, and I doubt if he did either.) Anyway, after she married and moved away in 1893, I doubt if she ever saw another person identified as Melungeon; so that dates the term fairly closely as far as her usage of it is concerned.

In upper east Tennessee and (especially) SW Virginia, I think the term "Ramps" was used more widely or colloquially than "Melungeons," and with a similar tone of social stigma. I was surprised to discover this morning that it has barely been mentioned on the Saponitown forum. Just as well, I guess; but it may be an indicator of the fact that most of the contributors are not old enough to remember conversations that took place before Melungeon scholarship emerged (in the 1960s, I think). Once there was a literature on the subject, it was about Melungeons (or some other more local terms), not about Ramps.

[Ed Yancey]

I never heard the word Ramps used to define a person or people but it is certainly not surprising seeing how easily we apply labels on others who appear different. I would also conclude it would not have been identifying the person or persons in a positive way , since most of us who have had any exposure to Ramps would associate them first of all with smell.
I do remember growing up in the 40's and early 50's hearing terms applied to others of different color primarily and knowing that although we certainly appeared to be 100% "white" we were never allowed to call a person of color black, negro, or the "N" word. It was early known that in our home this was a grose violation of our Faith. When I was 4 and 5 years old I was taught to hold a door open for a lady to enter and that meant lady no matter race. One word I remember used by my grandmother and that was "issuelite or issue." I know now the folk that formed what is now the High Plains Sapponi were identified by this term in those years and now I find it interesting that area is where my mother's people came from. I talked with Chief Martin about 8 wks back and found him to be a very gracious gentleman and knew things about my family I didn't even know. We still have no established connection to these folk.
Pappy was speaking in reference to the Melungeon and we have searched far and wide exploring whether someone in our family might have misunderstood and used the term Muskegeon when actually they were identifying themselves as Melungeon. Again, no surnames have connected at this time. My favorite spring food up in them thar hills was the wilted lettuce made with the spring leaf lettuce, onions and real fried meat with the hot greese poured over the lettuce to wilt it. That was one spring food or tonic I could go for but alas that is out now or at least the greese part! Ed

[sammarroq]

Wow, thanks for bringing this thread back, alot of good information. So these Melungeon were thought to have been here before Jamestown? I have wondered about Spanish or Portugese. My GGGrandmother's name was Isabelle (Ibby) Rosina Virginia Gibson, and have wondered about its roots or if her parents just liked the name.

Shirley

[techteach]

Ed:
Wilted lettuce salad is connected?

My mother always made that when I was a kid. I made it when I was first married, and we raised a garden.

Techteach

[Linda]

My mom made it too. I'll ask her if it was an old family recipe.

Regarding the term, "Guinea," I know some people, on the Mingo e-list, who live in WV and grew up with the term being applied to the "black" people in the region, whether or not they had Native roots, that's what they were considered there. In the local usage, the families "considered" Indian were either called Mingo or Blackfoot. Dreaminghawk, I can put you in touch with her, if you'd like.

[Linda]

Venusnia, try emailing rosebudsaponi through this site. Look up her name under 'members,' that will bring you to a link where you can email her. She's a Scott and a Rose and has often found the Blackfoot ID among people connected to her family.

[sammarroq]

Regarding Dalton, I would imagine it is on the list due to it's connection (as I seem to recall) with the so-called Guineas of West Virginia. Norris and Male also occur there, and have been thrown into the "Melungeon" surname list by the compiler.

Most of the families that can be identified as Melungeon can CLEARLY be traced to points further east, and were NOT in the mountains prior to the general movement west. They were also pretty clearly mixed-race before they arrived in Appalachia, and probably compounded the mixture with some of the remnant Indians they found when they got there.

I have been reading the biography of Alex Stewart, a noted folk artist and craftsman born and raised on Newman's Ridge in the 1890's. His comments on the Melungeons are interesting. While he seems to regard the melungeons as a different (from the whites) group ethnically, he clearly talks about many of his Gibson, Goins, and Collins neighbors without any hint that he considers them to be Melungeons. I suspect that there was an economic aspect to being a melungeon, in addition to the genetic one. That is, just being a Goins of mixed ancestry on Newmans Ridge did not automatically make you a Melungeon; being poor as gully dirt, mixed-blood, and living on Newman's Ridge might have. Even in 1850 the line may not have been a clear-cut one.

Just a thought.

I would like to read Stewart's biography...I will peek around and see if/where it can be purchased.